Mass halted as protesters swarm aisles (NOLA)

http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/metro/index.ssf?/base/news-13/1143443627126270.xml

The first Mass celebrated at St. Augustine Church since it was absorbed into neighboring St. Peter Claver parish last week ended midway into the service Sunday morning after church officials said they felt threatened by protesters.

-snip-

Sandra Gordon, head of the St. Augustine parish council, said parishioners had peacefully placed signs such as "Many races. Many colors. Save our parish," around the church, but she was not aware of plans to stage a protest march.

Gordon said she said realized that armed men were among parishioners when "one of them got up during the Mass and pulled his jacket back and I told my husband, 'Oh my God. he's got a gun.' "

Gordon cried after Mass saying, "I feel like I'm in 'The Twilight Zone.' "

-snip-

St. Augustine parish member Linda Santi said it was "Orwellian" to invite armed men to be part of a church welcoming crew.

"We were the Indians on the reservation and they were coming in with guns and putting their people in the front pews," Santi said. "It was as if the fellowship of the Mass was taken away when people with guns came in."

Santi said that Jacques and parishioners from St. Peter Claver who attended the Mass made no effort to make St. Augustine parishioners feel welcome in their own church.

There are so many issues swirling around I can't figure out exactly what the story is.

Dioceses all over the country ar scrambling after any possible excuse to close or combine parishes to cover up the fact that the Church is literally running out of priests.

Some parishes are being combined in a frantic attempt to come up with assets to sell off to get money to pay off the law suits for the sex scandals.

There is a hint in this particular case that St. Augustine represents too much of the "universal" Church and not enough of the "Roman" Church or to put it more bluntly a black vs white situation.

Just what is going on?

thus evil and evildoers all over the place are having evil done unto them, or whatever.


* Newly crowned Pope Ratzinger is nowadays cattily referred to as Pope Prada by Italian wags, to mock his penchant for expensive designer fabrics and fashions.

St Peter Claver's parish. Comments? Does anyone know what's going on?

It was founded by slaves and free blacks with the blessing of the archdiocese and birthed the second order of black nuns in the United States in 1842. It's incredibly important in the African-American community historically.

People have barracaded themselves inside to protest the closing of the parish. Some say, well they still get to have mass on Sunday, but a parish is much more than a weekly mass. Almost every Jazz Funeral for a musical or cultural Icon in New Orleans would take place at St. Aug.

It seems the more active the parish, the more threatening it is to the hierarchy and the more likely it is to be targeted for closing. What happened to the Polish parish in Missouri (St. Louis Diocese?) that went out and hired its own priest instead of turning over its deeds to the cardinal?

It sounds like St. Augustine is incredibly important in terms of culture and significance to the black community, and is more than just a place of worship. I didn't know that the Jazz Funerals originated there, but those are also an important, rich part of New Orleans' history. I can understand how upset the people who worshiped at St. Augustine are. Does every decision have to be made with economics in mind? Can't this parish be saved because it's so important to so many?

..& there is carpet-bagger,scallawag land-grabbin' going on WORSE than Civil War 'reconstruction'. I saw 2-4 stories high piles of debris,from Mobile,AL to New Orleans.. CITIZENS living in 3rd world conditions..& no electricity,STILL.. ALL this wasted $$ and 7 months later..NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE. We were hosted by rural churches who are STILL the ONLY Source for the communities,they have yet to see a red cross or fema person. Folks, this is awful people & awful policies,WMD against OUR OWN PEOPLE. Not incompetence..this is EVIL,and must be stopped.
WORSE than garbage & smells & torn-up landscapes,is the sense of abandonment and shock in the eyes of MY NEIGHBORS,on the Gulf.

Please, do whatEver YOU can do, to put attention on the CRIMES against OUR People, along the GulfCoast.
www.vetgulfmarch.org
www.bringthemHOMEnow.org

...who was in NOLA for the week as a group of chefs working on fundraising for hunger issues. He said the rage in the community is palpable. He said the city is largely reduced to sticks. He has toured impoverished countries the world around, and was still stunned at what he saw in NOLA.

Everyone down here realizes that we are on our own. Beggin didn't work so we must work for and demand what we deserve. I wish everyone could travel down here to see how we're living. It ain't easy.

They come up with excuse after excuse not to help us. FEMA and SBA loan applications are lost MOST of the time. Bodies are being found 7 months after the fact b/c there wasn't help with searches and K-9 search teams were put out of their hotels by FEMA.

On a positive note, we're all turning to each other. Neighbors helping neighbors. I've never known my neighbors as well as I do now. And for that, I'm thankful.

and to tell OUR NEIGHBORS..YOU ARE NOT FORGOTTEN..& THIS WAR ON AMERICANS..IN America,will not STAND. WE had Young Vets from Iraq,older Ones from VietNam..these Guys will be BACK,with building supplies & Righteous Mission..taking CARE of OUR PEOPLE. WE had helicopters flying over US,checking up on US..but they couldn't drop supplies to residents? HDS took photos of US..not the piles of DEBRIS that WAS someOne's LIFE.I am outraged,as we ALL are who made this Journey.
I remember the dazed,shock in those SURVIVORS'eyes..& a FLASH! of HOPE when the SURVIVORS realized why WE were there.How dare the guvment traumatize its PEOPLE,this way? WE know whut's whut..and it's EVIL..& WE WON'T HAVE IT.

Please tell YOUR Neighbors..WE REMEMBER,& WILL STAND WITH YOU ALL,in YOUR EFFORTS. I've been emailing congress.org,msm media, democratic govs, ANYbody I can think of..& urge ALL concerned to do ANY/EVERYthing to get attention focused on the GulfCoast. Soon as WE can reorganize,re-group,recuperate, WE will be back..to REBUILD WITH & FOR YOU.
Stay STRONG,Y'all..

for your service to our country that is apparent in 2 forms. The military service and your current service in activism and support for fellow americans. Your words of encouragement are greatly appreciated and we look forward to your return to our (still) great city.

I don't know where these devil-boys are from,but WE don't do OUR PEOPLE that way..No thanks needed, it's just doin' right by People. NOLA is bad,& I knew it..but ALL the WAY,to MOBILE! THIS is HUGE. How dare congress act like their job is done..& I'm lookin'at rumsfeld..THAT sucker needs to fry..well,too many freaky,wrong things,don't get me started..
Yes! New Orleans is STILL a PRECIOUS JEWEL,because of the Beautiful Spirit in the PEOPLE. This was my 1st visit..despite the destruction, I saw the STRENGTH,& the Beauty,there. 'The man' can't have it.

BtW! We're also gathering contacts,along the Gulf,& lists of NEEDS,& People to HELP.. so please,if YOU get an idea,or a contact,or whatEver, feel free to email ME(or the grp),if WE can help in ANY Way. My finances are limited,but my FAITH,& reSources are NOT.
HERE,for YOU ALL,till WE can be THERE..
PLEASE tell the PEOPLE,WE REMEMBER..& WE CARE~===]gi mama

what is it that you think you deserve?

(snip)
Maestri said he asked 10 police officers in plain clothes -- many of them members of St. Peter Claver -- to attend Mass on Sunday in order to "make sure we had taken precautions in case things got out of hand."

Modern Judas Iscariots. So Rat-zinger wants the Church to stop being peaceful and Christian-like?

Under both Church Law and Secular law, it is the Bishop who is in complete Charge of his Diocese. Technically the Bishop can even disobey the Pope if he wants to. Now such revolts by the Bishops do not occur often do do to the chance of Promotion and such a revolt would forbid a Bishops to work with the other Bishops. Thus such revolts are rare in Church History, for example the last big Schism was in 1869 when several Bishops revolt against Vatican I (1869) (Through you did have one or two Bishops who rejected Vatican II but no series schism occurred during or After Vatican II unlike the Schism that came out of Vatican I).

My point in all of this it is the BISHOP who is forcing this merger NOT the Pope. Now the Pope wants to reduce the overall number of parishes in the US but that has less to do with the number of Priests than the movement of people to the Suburbs (and thus abandonment of the older inner city parishes).

Now I do NOT know the inter-working of the New Orleans Diocese, but this is the push I have seen in the Pittsburgh and other Western Pennsylvanian Dioceses. The Ideal solution would be to merge the older inner city parishes with the Suburban Parishes that people have moved to since WWII, but that is NOT possible do to HOW people moved to the Suburbs (i.e. they moved as individuals NOT as whole communities). Thus you end up merging a lot of older Inner City Parishes that have sat side by side for Decades. These Parishes often help defined their Community, and thus you have the effect of merging two different Community into one and all the problems such a merger incurs. It sounds like St. Peter Claver Parish has more (and higher paid) members than St Augustine's and thus the MERGE RED Parish is dominated by people from St Peter Claver instead of the group that was running St Augustine. Such classes often occurs when mergers occur and take time to work themselves out.

A secondary factor in this case is that the two communities involved sound like they are made of different ethic background (Almost sound like one is White the other Black). In my home town of Pittsburgh you have had similar problems were the merger was between the Lithuanian, Polish and German Churches all located with a mile of each other. When these Parishes were formed they were a mechanism to keep in contact with the old country AND each people's history. With the Merger many feared that such connections would be lost to the merged identification of the united parish. To a degree this happened, but also to a degree it did not, but a lot of people resented that fact that the people they were use to contacting in their parish charged do to the merger and they had to develop new ties with new people.

st. augustine is black beyond a doubt but i thought the other parish was as well

anyone?

And even among these WHITE ethic Churches you had conflicts do to the merger into one big Parish. And you be surprised on who is critical of what, for example Pittsburgh had German Church built in the Style of German Rhineland Churches on the South Side slope. It was a small Church but do to its location could be seen on the other side of the Monongahela and most of the South Side of Pittsburgh. I was CLOSED when the parishes on the south Side were merged into one parish, it was the Smallest Church with the Smallest congregation, but also the most historical Church (Given its length of Service and its Style). The other Ethic Groups protested its closure and it being sold, but the Bishops basically said I am merging Parishes and selling off the Churches with the smallest congregations (The drop in inner city Congregations in Pittsburgh is tied in with the movement of people to the Suburbs since WWII). The protest just fell on Deaf ears for the Dioceses saw the German Church and its location the easiest to sell at the highest price (as compared to the other Churches in the area that were on the Flats of the South SIde instead of on Mt Washington Escarpment). The Church is now being converted to Condominiums, what a waste of a very good Building that people ere willing to pay to upkeep.

My Comment is the South Side of Pittsburgh Parishes were all WHITE (Through the last time I was in St Michaels, 20 years ago, it was a beautiful old German Church, with "Gott ist Gutt" and other slogans in German while the wedding ceremony was being preformed by a Black Priest). It had that feel of an old Church that is a product of a lot of love not some cross between a Hospital and a barn, i.e. sterile and large). Even among these WHITE congregations you had conflict when the Bishops merged the Parishes. Unlike an ongoing Parish, where people come and go but over time and generally one personnel change every half decade or so, you have a whole new set of people to work with all at once. Even if the parishes are about the same size, at least 1/2 of the people you are vealing with will be new to you (i.e. from the other parish). This is worse in older Parishes in that often the people you are dealing with tend to hold the same position within the parish their parents held, thus you have people who have dealt with a certain family for things within the parish all their lives (and often all their parent's lives). Thus from a institutional point of view you may NOT have had any real change within the Parish for Decades. Then you have the merger, and up to half of the people you are use to dealing with within the parish are new (i.e. from the other parish). This causes disruption and conflict.

Thus part of the problem is this internal conflict do to these "radical changes" within the Parish. People do not like change and radical change IMPOSED on them people tend to resent. Often such "Radial Change" is enough to cause heated discussion and even fist-a-cuffs. This can be enough to explain the problem at the Parish. If Race is a factor that will be another added problem over and above the normal conflict caused by such a merger (and let us NOT forget the escalation of tension caused by Katrina and Bush's failure to do anything to help the poorer people of New Orleans located, from the tone of this Article, in BOTH parishes involved in the merger.

and they'll probably leave it open. Money talks in this Church, just like our government. If every Catholic in the US wote to their diocese with a copy to their parish that there won't be one more penny given to the Church until this one church is left open - my guess is that'll do it. I'll start with me, right now. They really piss me off.

mods?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2191629

can somebody maybe combine these?

sorry, i did search but apparently not well enough

what an outrage!

Archbishop Alfred Hughes said Monday he will close St. Augustine Church indefinitely until it is clear that worship can resume there without threat of the kind of disruption that stopped a celebration of Mass there Sunday.

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tpupdates/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_tpupdates/archives/2006_03_27.html#125253


“We had the signs, they had guns, and we are the criminals?” asked Marge Paleton, a parishioner for six years.

*my personal comment* I think the presence of "outside" protesters was not a good thing. I completely respect the right of the parishoners to hold signs during a service. However, from what I understand, the "outside" protesters made this into a loud march that disrupted the service and people's right to worship. The parishoners alone could have made a more credible statement without the outsiders. The Archbishop punishing the parishoners for this is unnacceptable and inexcusable. Why could the armed cops not keep the outsider protesters outside of the church? I think this whole situation could have been averted.

Maybe something will be added shortly so here is the web site:

http://www.arch-no.org/

In the US, many people left the inner City in the period from WWII till today. This caused a lot of new parishes to be open in the Suburbs AND a decline in the number of people attending the older parishes in the inner City. By the 1980s it was clear that many of the inner city parishes did not have enough population base to maintain the Parish AND provide they share of Diocese wide service (In a private company point of view, Each parish could still provide for themselves BUT could not pay for upper management and the support staff of the Diocese). Given this situation the Catholic Church in the US started a policy of merging older Parishes together.

This was complicated by the immigration from Eastern and Southern Europe in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Each ethic group, while Catholic, had their own traditions and thus were permitted to form Ethic Church for their Parishioners often just down the street from each other. When most people lived in the Inner City this was NOT a problem, each ethic Parish paid for itself AND provided for the overhead of the Diocese, but this tended to stop as people moved to the Suburbs after WWII.

Thus the two problems are often inter-connected, you have a general drop in inner city Catholic parishioners, AND a huge number of parishioners right next to each other. Basically as people left something had to be done about the drop in Parishioners in each parish. A decision was made to merge many of the parishioners into larger Parishioners. This caused two inter-related problems, first a lot of ethic groups were organized via their church and thus these groups feared losing their identities, AND Second, most of these parishioners had existed for over a 100 years a most of their parishioners were use to how the parish operated, the merger would bring radial change, changes many of these parishioners had NOT seen since their were formed in the late 1800s. This caused conflict even among white parishes.

In the case of New Orleans you have a large number of Black Catholics dating back to when the French controlled the City. How this is working with the above problem I do not know (One person in this thread said both parishes in question are majority Black Parishioners). It may be White-Black, but I suspect it is more the problem the happen whenever two groups are merged into one. Such mergers bring with them conflict (see my previous thread on this subject to see how). On the other hand the problem may be deeper, only further facts from New Orleans can determine what is really going on there.

for all the righteous anger that must be very close to the surface down there.

Maybe they could find a religious order, perhaps of the "liberation theology" persuasion, to take it over? Heck, that'd be enough for me to give the Church another try if I ever got back in (my last, short-lived attempt to reconnect with my Catholic upbringing took place at the church on Carrollton Ave. near the Riverbend, around 15 years ago)!

Twenty years ago it was the case of Catholics moving out of the cities to the suburbs, (although I never understood why the bishops never tried to reach out to the people moving into the cities!) Now parishes are being shut down and combined because there aren't enough priests to provide staffing. In some cases, such as the Diocese of Boston, it appears that very viable parishes are being shut down so that assets may be sold off to pay for law suits. What many here are questioning is the possibility that this is an opportunity to shut down a parish (St. Augustine) that was a little "too" active to suit some in the hierarchy.