Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Chavez Plans Cheap Oil for Europe's Poor

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 07:38 PM
Original message
Chavez Plans Cheap Oil for Europe's Poor
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said Saturday that he wants to provide cheap heating oil for low-income Europeans, proposing a plan similar to the one he carried out in parts of the eastern United States. Chavez said Venezuela has two oil refineries in Germany and one in Britain but did not provide further details about which countries could benefit from the proposal.

"I want to humbly offer support to the poorest people who do not have resources for central heating in winter and make sure that support arrives," Chavez said at a gathering in Vienna of activists and representatives of social movements and non-governmental groups. The so-called alternative summit was held in parallel to a three-day summit of leaders from the European Union, Latin America and the Caribbean that concluded earlier Saturday in the Austrian capital.

This past winter, Venezuela delivered cut-rate oil to low-income Americans through Citgo, the Houston-based subsidiary of Venezuela's state-owned oil company. Some Chavez critics charged the heating aid program was an attempt to embarrass President Bush and was more an attempt to score political points than it was an act of charity.

In other comments during his speech that lasted more than two hours, Chavez known for his anti-American rhetoric said that the "final hours of the North American empire have arrived." "So now we have to say to the empire: 'We're not afraid of you. You're a paper tiger," he added.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=1958768&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. I have friends who survived this winter because of Hugo Chavez. I
will never forget what he did or wwhat he is doing to change the world in a positive way. Viva Hugo!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
corporate_mike Donating Member (812 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
75. What about the extremely poor in Venezuela?
Whouldn't he take care of them first?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tight_rope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. I guess you haven't been keeping up...because he's been working on that!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. Santa Chavez - ya gotta love the guy for this
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Now thats a good one!
This guy has a big heart!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
partylessinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. You Da Man!
The more I hear about Hugo Chavez, the more I love him.

He is everything that Bush isn't and that is why Bush wants to take him out.

"So now we have to say to the empire: 'We're not afraid of you. You're a paper tiger," he added. Viva, Chavez!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ast_liberal2008 Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. It's not anti-American
It's anti-Bush!
It's the MSM trying to make people hate Chavez because he hates Bush.
I'm sick of the hate of the U.S. leaders being equated with the hate of all Americans.
If Chavez was anti-American, why would he want to help the poorest people in the country he supposedly hates?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
5. Politics or no, Chavez makes a splendid hero to bush's villain.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
6. Dat'a a my boy!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Terran1212 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
7. What will be our claim against him when we invade Venezuela?
"He gives too much to poor people!"?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. He's a dangerous demagogic dictator who is trying to enrich uranium
and runs drugs and is working with Al-Qaeda.

Doesn't matter that it's not true, if they seriously want this to happen, the media will do all the heavy lifting, and he'll magically become the next Saddam Hussein.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Bin Laden was sighted driving a cab in Caracas
and AIPAC has reported from an anonymous source that Chavez has said that Israel will be obliterated. AIPAC's claim has been verified by a very high source in the State Department.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Terran1212 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
37. LOL
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
10. I guess he's not taking Blair's advise!......(spare the oil)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
12. Fucking Communist.
What if everyone started giving the poor a break?

Shit, people might get the idea that "giving is a good thing."

Hey, if there were no poor to exploit, who could we get to mow our lawns and make our clothes?

:sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PaulaFarrell Donating Member (840 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
13. Noble gesture
but Europe as a whole is pretty wealthy, with good social support for poor people. Unless he's targeting Eastern Europe I think there are better places he could choose to benefit - including his own country by making as much profit as possible. I know he is doing a lot for them, but he doesn't need to dilute this by putting Europe on Venezuelan welfare.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. So that's it, eh?
Europe is universaly wealthy?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PaulaFarrell Donating Member (840 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. on the whole yes
by wealthy, I mean, roof over head, adequate food, medical care, etc. I don't mean they all own Ferraris.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
56. Well then - rock, rock on!
:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Edward Bernays, is that you?
I thought you died in '95.

"I never died," says Edward.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PaulaFarrell Donating Member (840 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Sorry, no idea what you're talking about n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Here you go:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PaulaFarrell Donating Member (840 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I'm afraid you're mistaken
not spinning, just maybe have a bit more feeling for the conditions of people living in Venezuela. It would be scandalous if Chavez started subsidinsg wealthy Europe at the expense of his own people. I accept that his heart is in the right place, but the action is not right. Sorry if you disagree.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. That argument you keep repeating is spin, and I don't think it makes
sense, and I address why in my other post, and your posts don't address the argument in that post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jamesinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. He is helping his own people
He recently raised the minimum wage. If I remember correctly, Venezuela will have its debts paid off by the end of the year, and that will make his country a little more fiscally stable. Actually running a surplus is not a bad thing. I think he is picking a small project where he will be successful with out taking his own country down. Sure he could try to save all of Africa, but that may break his country. After his country is out of debt, he may get a little more ambitious, having a surplus and all.

I think Katrina blew away all of the myths about the US being the wealthiest nation in the world and not needing outside help from other counties. Hurricane season starts in just a few weeks and they still have not fixed last years mess. The relative wealth of a nation, its social programs and in the case of the US its supposed Christianity do not make it free of need and help from other countries.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PaulaFarrell Donating Member (840 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. all you say is true
nevertheless, a poor European is way better off than a poor Venezuelan, or other South American. He should look closer to home, that's all I'm saying. Europe sucked the life out of its colonies for centuries, it can stand on its own two feet now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. However, a income/wealth/power disparities in powerful nations produce
fascist, unstable societies which then use that power imbalance to exploit developing countries.

The developing world is MUCH MUCH better off when there are democracies with strong middle classes in the US and Europe rather than "democracies" in which the powerful oppress people who work for a living, like in Thatcher UK and Reagan America.

You have got to admit that the worst days for Chile were the DIRECT RESULT of the Nixon (and therefor Kissinger) getting elected, Iraq when Bush got elected, and the list goes ON and ON.

Chavez has probably got his finger right on the pulse of the problem when he realizes that you have to reduce disparities in wealth and power EVERYWHERE if you're going to reduce it ANYWHERE.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PaulaFarrell Donating Member (840 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. I live in Europe
the poor here are nowhere near as poor as the poor in South America. They all have guaranteed incomes, and access to housing. I don't know what point you're trying to make - Thatcher and Regan and Nixon were all democratically elected, and mostly by the middle class. And no, Chavez needs to start at home. I personally think he is trying to do in Europe what he did in America after Katrina. He just doesn't realise that the social system in Europe precludes the kind of suffering that occurs in America.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I repeat the arguments in my post.
I'm not sure your post addresses them
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PaulaFarrell Donating Member (840 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. I'll try
(insofar as my tiny little brain allows me).

You state that we need strong middle classes to democratically elect rulers. Both Reagan and Thatcher were democratically elected, primarily by the middle classes. Sad but true.

I agree with the fact that the US has fucked up many many countries. But I'm not sure how it's relevant. BTW if you want the republicans out of power, then surely what you need is for people to suffer more? People who are comfortable do not change their goverment. In effect, giving Europeans cheap energy subsidises whatever government is currently in power by alleviating the misery.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. I assume you don't live in France...
Have you seen the slums there, people living on streets, unemployed, no access to housing, etc. Not to mention Eastern Europe, which is still recovering from the Yolk of the old USSR. There are plenty of places in Europe that equal the poverty of Caracas or New Orleans, easily.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PaulaFarrell Donating Member (840 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Well, if so
then France should do something, and not expect to be subsidised by third-world countries.

I have visited France, and have never seen what you see. But I've only seen a little of it.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jamesinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #36
63. I don't think they said Chavez save us
he is doing this on his own accord. Britain I am sure has not asked Chavez to save them from their selves. He is building alliances with countries all over the world and particularly his neighbors.

He has an agreement with Cuba about education and medicine. Which ever country does a particular thing better, the citizens of the other country are allowed to travel there to gain from the better of the two programs.

He is making alliances all over South and Central America. One of the most robust economic areas of the world is around Venezuela, he is bringing his neighbors along. He is working this good neighbor thing all through the Caribbean too.

He is making some strong alliances with the Asian powers of Russia and China by way of trade. Now he is working on one of the European powers, Britain.

He has been very consistent with this, always the good neighbor, always lending a hand. Sure there are places that have greater needs, but he does this on a volunteer basis. He does not go to a summit and discuss for three days a topic, then sign a pledge to give to some area of the world. He does it on his own. He is getting Venezuela out of third world status and getting them into a good relationship with all of the power players of the industrial world. He is setting his country up to have a very bright future.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #34
60. That's "yoke" as in wooden crosspiece fastened over oxen's necks,
not "yolk" which is the yellow inner part of an egg. D for spelling; but A for your point about European slums. ;}. Even if the poor in Venezuela are more destitute than the poor in some European country, Chavez greatly benefits his country by his foreign policy of establishing good will with wealthier countries. As Harry Belafonte used to comment in one of his songs, "There is goodness in togetherness", and Chavez is creating powerful allies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
68. Actually, many Europeans are no longer guaranteed healthcare,
since it has been privatized. And more low income families are losing their homes now then before.

Venezuela does have "universal" healthcare - free for the poor (as is education and food).

Chavez already has started at home, and he has achieved a lot. Eradicating illiteracy takes a few years - which he did. Eradicating poverty takes a bit longer. It's not just a matter of money but also a matter of time, and he's working on it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Saboburns Donating Member (690 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
47. Er, um
Edited on Sun May-14-06 06:26 PM by Saboburns
I don't mean to pick a fight here, but...

Chavez is a provocateur in every sense. He is anti-Bush in every way and that part I love about him. He's a devout socialist and that I live about him. He's raising the living conditions for his poor people and I love him for that, too. I fear what he is doing to his Democracy.

Seems like here on DU you gotta either love him or hate him.

And I do. Both ways.

But before I went off on a tangent I wanted to point out to you that his people already benefit from cheap oil and petro products.

One of the benefits of nationalizing oil companies.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demgurl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
16. Some people will always be critical no matter what.
My Great Aunt once said that some people would criticize Jesus for walking on water because he is too good to get wet like the rest of us. When people do good and noble things it should always be applauded.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PaulaFarrell Donating Member (840 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Question
(because I think perhaps you were replying to me)

Is it better to do good and noble things for people who need it, or people who won't notice the difference? Remember, if Chavez gives Europe cheap oil, he is depriving his own country of possible revenue. By the way, I like CHavez. I just think this particular effort is misguided, in that he probably doesn't realise the extent of social provision in Europe.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Heh?!
His helping people, trumps your selfish perspective("he is depriving his own country of possible revenue").... end.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PaulaFarrell Donating Member (840 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. what selfish perspective?
PLease explain, I'm dying to know. I want him to benefit his own people. I know that Europeans are fine and will survive. If Venezula really is awash with cash, then he can give it to his near neighbours. I know Haiti is suffering. Jamaica can always use a little boost. There are plenty of poor in Mexico.

Now, if I really were selfish, I'd say thank you Hugo and take the cheap gas.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nick303 Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Don't talk common sense with the faithful.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Faithful...? And who are you? WTF are you talking about?
Why don't you expound a little....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
PaulaFarrell Donating Member (840 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Sorry if you don't like it, it's the truth
Every barrel of oil he sells under the market value deprives his own country of revenue. Not sure how that's 'funny'. Ironic maybe.

I am not saying he shouldn't do it, I am saying he should target it to people who really need it. I know Americans like to think they are the centre of the universe and that if they are suffering it should fixed and immediately. Speaking as an American, I know that we don't have a clue what suffering if really about. I don't know why Chavez is doing this. It if he wants to help people he should look first to Haiti or other nearby countries. Europe will certainly not appreciate whatever small contribution he makes (most poor people in Europe do not have cars, and would use gas or coal for heating).

Sorry if you think my humanitarianism is laughable. Nevertheless, it's genuine.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
49. Actually he did...
He has special oil deals with many South American and Caribbean nations. So really, you were saying?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. how is that a "selfish perspective"
the poster makes a valid point - how does helping Europe's (who aren't hurting that bad) poor help Venezuela's (who are hurting a lot worse) poor?

Shouldn't Chavez be more concerned with helping his own countrymen before engaging in this sort of grandstanding (and that's what it is,IMO)?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Not all European Countries are equal...
We don't know WHAT countries he wants to concentrate on helping, but I can give a few suggestions, France's Immigrant and African poor are in sore need for help, and much of Eastern Europe as well. Granted the AVERAGE European is better off than the Average Venezuelan or American, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't help.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PaulaFarrell Donating Member (840 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. I disagree
An elected leader's first responsibility is to his own people. Would you be OK with the US giving aid to Europe? The US is after all much wealthier tha Venezuela.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pooja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. does give aid
the usa doles out a ton of aid every year all around the world.... and then leaves vets in the street and children in the ghetto... poor is poor no matter where you live
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PaulaFarrell Donating Member (840 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. I may be wrong
but I don't think the US gives aid to Europe, or at least weestern Europe. The EU gives a lot of foreign aid itself.

And there are degrees of poverty. There is literally starving to death right on down to 'social deprivation' (the defintion of poverty in the UK - meaning you don't live the same lifestyle as your cohorts). I think it's important to deal with the extremes of poverty first.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. True, however, who says he can't do both, also, don't count...
on the US in this. The NATION is wealthier, as in the top 10% or so, but not the rest of us, we have somewhere around a quarter million people that are practically homeless from Katrina alone, and many more millions that live no better than those living in Barrios around Caracas. This is perhaps even sadder than conditions in Venezuela, Chavez's nation isn't rich, yet they were able to reduce poverty, get rid of illiteracy, and provide healthcare to ALL citizens, and still be able to take care of U.S. poor hit hardest by recent winters. The U.S., a nation many times wealthier can't even do that, we are fucking pathetic. As far as France, they covered up the poverty for so long they ignored the problem, also Chavez hasn't released the details of his plans, but whatever he does, remember he always does it with the best interest of his people at heart.

Let's see if I can explain, lately he answered the calls of many U.S. polticians through his State Owned Oil Company, and their U.S. subsidary Citgo to provide heating oil for the poorest neighborhoods here for the winter. Venezuela, being a more tropical country, has little need for such types of fuel, and would only reduce its profits by a minimum amount. But think of this, Bush, leader of the most powerful nation on Earth, Militarily, is openly hostile to Venezuela, and Chavez in particular. So, Chavez does under the table diplomacy, by spreading goodwill, the best form of diplomacy, for it actually helps the least among us, in both nations. Who is to say he's not planning to do the same in Europe?

If Chavez were to position his nation as using its oil wealth to HELP other nations, being a Philanthropist nation, it would be politically and diplomatically impossible for any nation to be able to attack it without SERIOUS repercussions. Its a smart policy if you think about it, for who wants to attack a nation with a leader who is not only outspoken, but also generous, to both his own people and the world?

Not to say its a perfect policy, but its more effective than most, and will probably preserve Democracy in Venezuela from outside intereference for years to come.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #21
65. "depriving his own country of possible revenue" - true, but not a problem
Because there is plenty of revenue to go around.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pooja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
41. missing the picture
It is obvious that the Venezuelan gov't is offering the poor people of influential wealth the countries generosity to become noticed. Good for PR. And lets be realistic... fidel castro is a relic... USSR is gone... broken up and dwindling in population. The only reason Cuba is still sanctioned is for stupid pride...

I am not saying that there isn't problems within the gov't. But when it comes down to it, poor person here or there is still a poor person... tell that poor person that they will have a little more food that week... and I think they will take the help no matter who is handing it to them...just goes to show you how incompetant the most powerful countries in the world really are.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
43. Kindness as a foreign policy principle. What
a fantastic idea.

Not to mention brilliant.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jerry611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
46. Loves the poor, hates Bush, rolling back liberty and democracy
That's Chavez's policy.

And apparently helping the poor and hating Bush is all that is required to gain support from DUers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. It'd be nice if you could back up your claims...
Let's see, let's talk press freedom first, OK, so, how many Journalists are in jail in Venezuela again? Oh right, NONE.

http://www.cpj.org/attacks05/pages05/imprison_05.html

Hell, even the United States has like 5 Journalists in jail, and we are a beacon for freedom and Democracy? Try again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jerry611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Something about him I dont like
From the various reports from journalists (internationally and domestic) and from personally talking to people that have lived in Venezuela... I just don't trust the man. And I have a very strong feeling that he has hidden agendas.

He has packed the supreme court. He has control of the legislature. He passed a law last year that jails anyone for 40 months if they criticize the government. He has almost total control of the media. His police forces are starting to be more and more intimidating.

It just seems he is aquiring power the same way the Nazis did. They offered socialist reforms, took over the media, and started a continuous rise of intimidation and propaganda.
Last week he said that the United States is preparing to attack and invade Venezuela. The US isn't planning to do this. There is no indication that the US is planning to invade. Seems to me he is just trying to provoke paranoia and fear in his population. Hitler did the same thing. It is a classic trait of dictatorship.

Just my 6th sense on the issue...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Wait a second here...
OK, first things first, Take over the media? Are you kidding? There is only ONE public station, all the rest are owned and operated by the Opposition, and they CALL for his assassination ON TV, in NEWSPAPERS, and also during protests. The only other thing he did was provide grants to poor people to set up local stations in their own towns, no strings attached, more than I can say for our own NPR. As far as the "disrespect" law that was passed, he vetoed it the first time, because the penalties were too high, and so far it has been unenforced. As far as the police, most are NOT under his control, the opposition, even though they are out of NATIONAL power, still hold many state and local offices that have more direct control over the police, just like our own mayors and governors. I didn't even mention the corruption he is trying to root out, but is having difficulty with.

As far as stacking the court, that's actually a valid critique, but more along the lines of what FDR tried to do here, granted FDR failed to succeed. I'm not happy about it, and it could be dangerous, but then again, maybe not, only time will tell. As far the paranoia, well, considering that the government suffered a coup where Chavez himself was arrested, and possibly almost killed, that paranoia isn't exactly what I would call misplaced. In fact, that bastard Caroma is in Florida right now, and if you want to talk about REAL oppression, look up what the police of Caracas did on April 12, 2002 under HIS and the opposition Mayor's orders on that day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pooja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. too good to trust
Anytime a country is rising from 2nd to 1st class status, you need watch the rise and the power flow. By offering oil (world wide need) to the poor, he is imaging himself as the good guy. Just someone to watch and be cautious of.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. Im sure you are a psychic, but thats a load of bullshit.
Lies and Nazi comparisons, nice 6th sense.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jerry611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. Venezuela is rising too fast
Hitler did the same to Germany. He turned it from a 3rd world war-torn country into a superpower with the world's most deadliest and most advanced military machine within only a few short years. Before Hitler came to power, he was an anti-capitalist/anti-west candidate that promised to give riches to the needy and punish those that exploited the poor. He then started blaming the west for all of Germany's problems. He claimed the west was trying to punish Germany and start another war. It was part of his propaganda machine. And yes, this lead right into WW2.

I am not calling Hugo Chavez the next Hitler. But what I am saying is that I see some elements of history starting to repeat. And I assure you I will be watching Venezuela (as should we all) very closely over the next several years. I am particularly interested in what happends in the next election.
If this guy does achieve absolute power, it could spell extreme danger for the United States and all our allies in Latin and South America. Chavez is creating an axis of allies with enemies of western civilization. And for what purpose?

Feel free to call me whatever insult you like. It won't change my mind. It's just how I feel.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Germany was a Third World Country after WWI?
Get real, the highly industrial country was in the grips of a Great World Depression partly brought on by wreckless banking practices the US thrust upon Europe after the Great War.

The U.S. went from being a traditional debtor of Europe before World War I to becoming its creditor: America had financed the war and it was issuing loans for its reconstruction. However, the attitudes in the U.S. were evolving in an unusual direction: an increasing number of American financiers were starting to literally seek potential borrowers which led to competition to among U.S. banks and the spread of unsound lending. The main object was to "do the most business", even at the expense of essential caution.

What seemed like a beginning of recovery from the Great War, was in fact an immense accumulation of debts, which made the international economic order vulnerable to depression. Analyzing these events with the insight we have today, they seem even more unbelievably audacious given the high instability of borrowing nations.

Interesting, Chavez is making inroads to eliminate the debt his country has accumulated. Hugo Chavez, the Renaissance man, must be a student of history and is protecting his citizens from the dark days that lay ahead. :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #61
64. Nobody takes your silly HItler comparison seriously. EOM
Edited on Mon May-15-06 01:30 AM by K-W
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Last week Chavez was talking about remaining president until 2031
if opposition parties boycotted the upcoming elections. 2031.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Correction...
He was talking about, if the opposition parties boycotted the election, of putting on the ballot a referendum to lift term limits. Sounds like an excellent motivation for them to NOT boycott the elections, don't you think?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #51
67. proposes a referendum on term limits, there will still be elections

If the people don't like it the referendum will fail - and there'd still be elections in which Chavez can be defeated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #46
66. "rolling back liberty and democracy" - False
You are ill-informed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
57. Seeing the new names and accompanying comments, I'm reminded
of another new poster who showed up claiming he/she didn't know what it was about Chavez: he/she just "had a feeling in his/her gut" about him, and for that reason, the rest of us were supposed to allow him/her to claim he was up to sumthin', and absolutely untrustworthy. We're supposed to support Bush's plans to destabilize his government, using our taxes, and doing it without even a trace of diplomacy having ever been attempted. Bull####.

Also, you may have noticed, a couple of persistant Chavez haters have been gone a few days, and I know this as I'm not seeing any "ignores" on my screen. I imagine they may have realized they had come to the end of the road with those of us who were sick and tired of answering the same old crappy slams and lies OVER AND OVER again, so they've invented new screen names and are pretending to enter as newcomers using the SAME OLD CHARGES, SLAMS, AND LIES as if they'd just been conceived, leaving us to wrestle with the very same venemous, mininformed, deliberately misleading claims all over again.

To any real DU'ers who have any questions, I beseech you, please just jump in and start reading everything you can find about Venezuela, starting with the history of the last 50 years, to get a basic awareness of US/Venezuela relations, just like the rest of us who have to get in there and find out for ourselves. Once you've read enough, what these dear ones are telling you will be clearer and clearer.

Most people can tell the sound of truth when they hear it, and spot general silliness as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Andrushka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Hear hear, Judi Lynn
Just when I thought the more enlightened members who join in on Chavez-related threads had cleared up the immense amount of misinformation many bring to these discussions, it appears yet again (no names, but there's more than one on this thread) that many still haven't bothered to read around, as you correctly point out. I have this "gut feeling" this thread won't be the last the same old, tired anti-Chavez rants are seen, though...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #57
73. Speaking of bull****
Edited on Mon May-15-06 10:54 AM by paulk
I see you're once again up to your usual tactic of accusing anyone with the temerity to question Chavez of being some kind of right wing plant.

Yes, there's a lot of information out there, and, using it, some people might actually arrive at a different conclusion than you.

Imagine that!

And what's a "real" DUer?

Someone who agrees with you?

Is that it?


ed for spelling
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
58. Here's an article which will help address some misinformation
Edited on Sun May-14-06 09:57 PM by Judi Lynn
posted earlier in the thread, or at least the implication that Hugo Chavez isn't doing nearly enough to help the poor ( the opposition President did something to help the poor: he raised the price of their transportation so high they couldn't afford it, they ran into the streets to protest, where he had his military mow them down in large numbers, in the massacre known as "El Carazco." ). I think I may have posted it earlier in this thread, remarking it had been shared with DU'ers by "Stockholm" in the Editorial section:
John Pilger
Chávez is a threat because he offers the alternative of a decent society

Venezuela's president is using oil revenues to liberate the poor - no wonder his enemies want to overthrow him

John Pilger
Saturday May 13, 2006
The Guardian

I have spent the past three weeks filming in the hillside barrios of Caracas, in streets and breeze-block houses that defy gravity and torrential rain and emerge at night like fireflies in the fog. Caracas is said to be one of the world's toughest cities, yet I have known no fear; the poorest have welcomed my colleagues and me with a warmth characteristic of ordinary Venezuelans but also with the unmistakable confidence of a people who know that change is possible and who, in their everyday lives, are reclaiming noble concepts long emptied of their meaning in the west: "reform", "popular democracy", "equity", "social justice" and, yes, "freedom".

The other night, in a room bare except for a single fluorescent tube, I heard these words spoken by the likes of Ana Lucia Fernandez, aged 86, Celedonia Oviedo, aged 74, and Mavis Mendez, aged 95. A mere 33-year-old, Sonia Alvarez, had come with her two young children. Until about a year ago, none of them could read and write; now they are studying mathematics. For the first time in its modern era, Venezuela has almost 100% literacy.

This achievement is due to a national programme, called Mision Robinson, designed for adults and teenagers previously denied an education because of poverty. Mision Ribas is giving everyone a secondary school education, called a bachillerato. (The names Robinson and Ribas refer to Venezuelan independence leaders from the 19th century.) Named, like much else here, after the great liberator Simon Bolivar, "Bolivarian", or people's, universities have opened, introducing, as one parent told me, "treasures of the mind, history and music and art, we barely knew existed". Under Hugo Chávez, Venezuela is the first major oil producer to use its oil revenue to liberate the poor.

Mavis Mendez has seen, in her 95 years, a parade of governments preside over the theft of tens of billions of dollars in oil spoils, much of it flown to Miami, together with the steepest descent into poverty ever known in Latin America; from 18% in 1980 to 65% in 1995, three years before Chávez was elected. "We didn't matter in a human sense," she said. "We lived and died without real education and running water, and food we couldn't afford. When we fell ill, the weakest died. In the east of the city, where the mansions are, we were invisible, or we were feared. Now I can read and write my name, and so much more; and whatever the rich and their media say, we have planted the seeds of true democracy, and I am full of joy that I have lived to witness it."
(snip/...)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1773966,00.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


As regular DU'ers know, we have absolutely no shortage of information about the transformation going on in Venezuela as the Bolivarian changes progress. All that's missing is a luxury of time for those of us who know how to find it take some time to run it down and post it.

That's what disruptors love: they know we've posted it again, and again, and it's time-consuming as hell, and most of us simply don't have the time to sit here and look for these articles again and again, and again, when we've already posted them before. There's an endless supply of disruptors, and a finite number of minutes DU'ers really have each day to post things we've already posted.

I'll check back later. Got to be elsewhere tonight.

We've got articles on food programs, medical programs, etc., as well. Anyone can find them in a search. Don't let these guys tell you there's nothing going on in Venezeula. That's simply an attempt to mislead.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #58
74. and once again, another post where you smear
anyone who questions Chavez.

This time they're "disrupters".

God forbid that we question leaders. Bush, Chavez - whoever.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CentralEuropeanDude Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 04:18 AM
Response to Original message
69. Dear Mr. Populist Chavez,
here you can find poor people:

Afghanistan
Angola
Bangladesh
Benin
Bhutan
Burkina Faso
Burundi
Cambodia
Cape Verde
Central African Republic
Chad
Comoros
Democratic Republic of Congo
Djibouti
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Gambia
Guinea
Guinea-Bissau
Haiti
Kiribati
Laos
Lesotho
Liberia
Madagascar
Malawi
Maldives
Mali
Mauritania
Mozambique
Myanmar
Nepal
Niger
Rwanda
Samoa
São Tomé and Príncipe
Senegal
Sierra Leone
Solomon Islands
Somalia
Sudan
East Timor
Togo
Tuvalu
Uganda
Tanzania
Vanuatu
Yemen
Zambia

http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0908763.html

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. So the poor people in other countries dont exist? EOM
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CentralEuropeanDude Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. let's start with the poorest.
oh, and i like Chavez but he is not my hero.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 04:46 AM
Response to Original message
72. Just published a short time ago, remarks from London's Mayor Livingstone
Chávez and Venezuela deserve the support of all who believe in social justice and democracy
Posted: 2006/05/15
From: Mathaba

George Bush's refusal to respect the choices of the Venezuelan people shows that his administration has no real interest in promoting democracy at all.


By Ken Livingstone

President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela will today become the second head of state - after the Queen - to be welcomed to London's City Hall. When it comes to the social transformation taking place in Venezuela, the political qualifications often necessary in our imperfect world can be set aside. It is crystal clear on which side right and justice lies. For many years people have demanded that social progress and democracy go hand in hand, and that is exactly what is now taking place in Venezuela.

It therefore deserves the unequivocal support of not only every supporter of social progress but every genuine believer in democracy in the world.

Venezuela is a state of huge oil wealth that was hitherto scarcely used to benefit the population. Now, for the first time in a country of over 25 million people, a functioning health service is being built. Seventeen million people have been given access to free healthcare for the first time in their lives. Illiteracy has been eliminated. Fifteen million people have been given access to food, medicines and other essential products at affordable prices. A quarter of a million eye operations have been financed to rescue people from blindness. These are extraordinary practical achievements.

Little wonder, then, that Chávez and his supporters have won 10 elections in eight years. These victories were achieved despite a private media largely controlled by opponents of the government. Yet Chávez's visit has been met with absurd claims from rightwing activists that he is some kind of dictator.
(snip/...)

http://mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=537304




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed May 01st 2024, 05:57 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC