Children 'should sleep with parents until they're five'

May 14, 2006

ONE of Britain’s leading experts on children’s mental health has advised parents to reject years of convention and allow children to sleep in bed with them until the age of five.

Margot Sunderland, director of education at the Centre for Child Mental Health in London, says the practice, known as "co-sleeping", makes children more likely to grow up as calm, healthy adults.

Sunderland, author of 20 books, outlines her advice in The Science of Parenting, to be published later this month.

She is so sure of the findings in the new book, based on 800 scientific studies, that she is calling for health visitors to be issued with fact sheets to educate parents about co-sleeping.

"These studies should be widely disseminated to parents," said Sunderland. "I am sympathetic to parenting gurus — why should they know the science? Ninety per cent of it is so new they bloody well need to know it now. There is absolutely no study saying it is good to let your child cry."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2179265,00.html

During that special formative time, beds are for sleeping, kitchen tables are for...........

:toast:

how else did people living in two rooms, manage to have lots of children. Creative sex and because children sleep deeply .

I'm tellin' ya, kitchen tables are highly underrated!

here in the US and in many other cultures. It may help a nursing mother with child-spacing, though.

otherwise it shouldn't be too hard to find other places.

is that it is emotionally healthier for the child to co sleep with his/her parents. We in America have been indoctrinated differently but then our children are less happy and secure but there are scores of reasons why that is and we don't need to give bedraggled parents one more thing to guilt themselves over.

At first we tried the crib. I was up every 20 minutes to check if he was breathing...lol. Once we brought him into the bed all my fears vanished. When he cried I was right there to take care of whatever was needed.

with my 2nd, she wanted no part in co-sleeping for some reason and to be honest it was a pain in the ass not having her right next to me at night.

I co-sleep. The poster I'm responding to said that co-sleeping is another form of birth control, suggesting that parents aren't able to have sex if they co-sleep. So my response to that is, "maybe if you only have one room in your house" because my husband and I find that other rooms work fine for sex.

years apart. We slept with our kids until they were about 2 1/2 to 3. Our kids are 2 years apart. We had cribs for them for day naps etc... BTW, there are lots a places to be alone.

Edited to add: I breast fed them too.

Will not be common practice for another 20 years. Too bad.

could not imagine doing that. People that say, "kids won't sleep unless...." have not made sleep an important part of the day. Never had trouble with the kids sleeping, never had trouble with the adults sleeping. Sure we had all the kids in a cradle as infants but then it was off to the crib...elsewhere! My advice - spend money on good sheets and bedding for all your kids. Don't make them sleep on junk that you yourself would not sleep on.

Western man is the only primate that doesn't sleep with their children.

I repeat, children can and do sleep just fine on their own. Civilization hardly depends on children sleeping with adults.

sleep with their children?

of adults sleeping with children and no one in these cultures has children who sleep in their own beds successfully. Yeah, sure, and there are no children's beds sold anywhere but in the US. And of course, your logic follows that American parents are then sexually repressed.

And to think I thought that logic like that was only to be found in the Bush Admin.

please don't put words in my mouth.

Sleeping with your child, like breast feeding is not for everyone. But you seem hostile toward those who do?

post that every culture does sleep with kids and in the US we don't and somehow there is something wrong with that. So...what's wrong with kids sleeping in their own beds? I disagree with the article's author, you agree with it. Fine. But what about my disagreement makes me wrong and you or the author's right?

Especially since our culture has so many kids and adults with all kinds of disorders from ADD to severe depression. Make you wonder why there is such a huge market for sleep aids like Ambien.

Sadly, many of our parents are confused by the demands of parenting and the needs of our young. And some just don't give a rat's ass.

For whatever reason, different people seem to have differing capacities for any or all of the parenting prerequisites. I doubt that fact has changed since the dawn of time and I don't expect it to change anytime soon. I've counseled scores of people who say..." at least they (parents) did this or that." Some people will easily look back on sleeping with their parents as one of the few "nurturing" things their parents did. On the other hand, some youth will report being teased or embarrassed by it. One thing is certain. Parenting is a whole package deal. You can't sleep your way through it.

As for the Ambien...when you can market shit and make it sell as a fertilizer, it isn't hard to imagine how the sale of sleep aids has prospered.

It's more likely that we have the resources to diagnose those conditions more frequently than say, Outer Mongolia. I also am not keen on having the kid in the bed. I don't sleep well at all with them there, plus they kick the crap out of me all night long. If you want thoroughly sleep deprived parents for five years, go with the co-sleeper. I personally will chance letting the kids sleep in their own beds and having parents who aren't zombies all that time.

It's easier for them to get back to sleep, when the child is right there. Assuming she is breast-feeding, no need to get up, get to the kitchen, heat the bottle, etc.

I hate having them in bed with us when they are sick or big storm. No one gets sleep.

What is the divorce rate difference between co-sleep and normal parents?

I have travelled to Japan - no cosleeping in middle class families; China only lower incomes co-sleep and wish they didn't; Russia - kids have the bedroom and parents in the living room.

just because it didn't work for you doesn't mean the whole premise is flawed. All kids are different - I have friends whose children slept through the night in their crib since they were 3 months old. They preferred it that way. Try as I might, my kids just don't sleep by themselves till they hit 3 yrs old. Rolling over and snuggling and nursing my baby back to sleep in a matter of seconds was much easier than getting up every 10 minutes to a high pitched wail, a highly agitated baby that then had to be bounced and rocked for 30 minutes until they went back to sleep. Trust me, I got WAY more sleep the 'keeping baby in my bed' way.
And my dh's comment to men who are too selfish to appreciate the sacrifice their wives also make to co-sleep in the interest of the child: "GROW UP".
I really like being called abnormal because I co-sleep. :sarcasm: According to mothers I talk to, we are FAR from the minority, it's just hidden because of ridiculous assumptions made by judgemental people like yourself.

Helping to plant wonderful smelling flowers outside everyone's room. The lovely sheets and bedding my mother picked out with love for each person. Sneaking into siblings room in the middle of the night to play cards or just talk. My parents talking in their room and laughing and joking and how reassuring it was to us. My very own bed, my very own stuff and keeping my room neat, neat, neat. My mother knowing I was a clean-nik and cleaning everyday so my room was just how I wanted it. Laying in bed as my parents got up and had coffee and discussed their upcoming day. Going in for a nap on crisp, high quality sheets with the wind wafting over my special flowers and the aroma wafting in waiting for dinner. Going to my brother's room every Christmas Eve waiting for Santa and we would swear we heard him. Tip-toeing into the baby's room to stroke her tiny hand. Each personality reflected in his/her room.

Which, BTW, have nothing to do with whether you co-slept or not. My kids have their own rooms, beautiful bedding freshly laundered every week, toys and games, books and nightlights, and decorated in each child's style of choice. They sleep in their own beds, lovingly tucked in at night and they crawl into bed with us at times - more rarely now that they are older. When they were little and with us, they'd wake up to a smiling parent and snuggle and nurse awhile. Or they'd get up to go pick out clothes in their room and play in it for awhile. My oldest has fond memories of both co-sleeping and playing in her room during her toddler years.
Everything you mentioned has more to do with love than co-sleeping. I don't understand your vociferous objections to co-sleeping, it's not like co-sleeping parents deny their children the things you have fond memories of. :shrug:
edited for errors

Bedrooms are for sleeping. That may be the reason your kids don't view their rooms as "their bedrooms". It is their playroom. We children had our own little world aside from our parents and to this day it is special to us. Our parents had their own world aside from us kids. It showed us that parents need a relationship special to them. It modeled marriage for us and the importance of having the best person to share a life with. Sure we slept with them as infants, while sick and during storms. I could not imagine sleeping with them on a nightly basis.

Questions:

1. Children at the age of 2-7 need 12 hours of sleep a night. Are you saying you sleep with them for 12 hours.
2. Sleeping nude then must be out of the question.
3. I researched co-sleep. Out of the 36 sites I looked at all but 1 described infant/parent sleep. No one here has said that infants/parents is not the norm. On "family bed" once again I found all sites detailed to infants. A couple of sites did describe going back to tribal was of a family bed. Do we want our kids to return to tribal ways? Tribal ways include the ideal that children are property, yoked lifelong to the family. Do we not want to teach our children free will, independence and that they can choose the life they want and not the life we impose on them?

My children are not my property. I have the honor to raise them and set them free. They are not required to be my lifelong child or to have any gratitude towards us. I think the point of my story of "what I remember" was saying that our mother treated us as people. Individual people.

I showed this thread to my brother and he laughed because his 2 nieces on his wife's side are children of a "family bed". Their parents never, ever let them go to sleepovers, stay at grandmas etc. When they had their 3rd child they were forced to allow other family members to care for them. My brother and his wife were told that they would cry and carry on. They MUST let them sleep in their marriage bed. The mother of these kids was literally sick with fear. After the parents left the girls were happy, clapping and running to fix their own private beds with the other kids. Bedtime came and they went off without incident and were asleep in 10 minutes and slept the whole night. That was the last time they were allowed to sleep away from home. Come on! Don't tell me that is not strange. Don't tell me those parents are not doing it for themselves and not for the kids. Let kids be kids and have their own little world.

I was explaining how it is for me; kids in the bed mean fitful sleep at best. No parent should be made to feel as if they are not parenting their children properly if they have them sleep in their own beds. I always kept the babies in the room with us, but in their own crib, and that worked out fine. And besides, the opinion of this doctor is to have the kids in the bed until age five. As far as I'm concerned, no five year old should be suckling on mommy's booby. It isn't medically necessary, and I personally think it would be yucky to have a kindergartner doing so. No kid who is potty trained should be nursing, IMO.

Have you everbeen to a cosleep website. Rife with ADD stories.

The need to separate a child to a separate room will
happen soon enough, and why reverse that... indeed, claro que si.

But our culture has dreadful bonding between parents and
children, that a nurturing bond is broken too early and
the likelihood of drugs addiction, criminality and so many
other things in later life, that WE ALL have to pay for, makes
it imperative that people nurture them better at very young age.

As most parents work, it makes it even less time for bonding,
and the peaceful bonding of sleeping next in the bed, for lack
of daytime-time, a proxy.

And what you're proposing is that we have "dreadful" bonding with kids in our society and the way to correct that is to sleep at night with kids.

For the record, my husband and I both worked, both made time for our kids, both co-ate dinner together and we did not sleep with the kids. They lived, we lived and no one seems bothered.

I grew up in the culture of "take the baby away from the mother"
and it did have an effect on my life that surely would be very
different had i not been "put in another room" so early.

Combined with bottle feeding, my parents pretty much ditched me
off right early, and i'm a twisted asshole who can conscience
using nuclear weapons... well it worked... harden the kids young.

You're right in that sense, as likely prison is the future, and
to get a kid their own solitary cell right away is critical to
teaching them the order of the patriarchal warden.

We did not abandon our kids to another room. Indeed, their adoption of sound sleeping was as much a part of our responsibility as parents as teaching or role modeling good diets or exercise. And neither of our young have or have had poor sleeping habits. If our young thought we had "hardened" them by having their own sleeping area, it would be news to me. But I'll ask them this morning at the over glorified Mother's Day breakfast we have every year.

Same with the bottle feeding. Food is food, sleep is sleep.

I don't think my spouse and I were/are exceptional. Just responsible.

Kids need to be touched, be physically close to their care givers to grow up to be emotional healthy, to be paid attention to. The world is not so scary a place then when they get older.
You are advocating abandoning the young every night to be alone in a dark room for 8 to 10 hours every night. This may be fine for a 6-7 year old, but not for a 3-5 year old.

Meaning: worthy of ridicule. You don't like that much. Ok. But in my family we slept well, the kids slept well and there has been no trauma.

We had plenty of affection daily. And the kids were free to sleep with or without a light on. They were also free to find us in the event of a bad dream, which were seldom.

Where is it written, btw, that children should not experience fear and learn to handle it?

I remember, and as a mature person, i can see how those feelings
have affected my whole life, setting up low self esteem and concepts
of self that were not helpful at all... and low and behold,
i smoke cannabis, and i consider that perhaps part of the reason
i originally discovered it as a 18 years old, where i used it poorly,
and evenutally quit for many years.

However, in latter years, i've rediscovered cannabis from india in
my religion, shiivite buddhist, from a different emotional basis,
and it is a sublime indulgence. ;-) But perhaps still an addiction
tendency entrained in my emotional body, something i compensate
for with occasional cannabis... i don't relaly think of it as
medicinal, but perhaps i'm compensating for the side effect
of that abandonment... and if my case is systemic, it would
explain the 30 million cannabis smokers, and the painful
fallacy of criminalizing abandonment.

I thought i just walked through that very thing.

Like i said, i relate to the feeling more by memory
of my youth than embedded memory, but the emotional
scar is real, and that you've not experienced such
scarring, does not make it heal. The world's largest
prison population says there may be systemic problem with hard patriarchy.

More so, i was noticing this issue as a matter of patriarchy,
and i wonder if more matriarchal cultures have more contact
between mothers and children, and patriarchal not, and as
you live in a hard-patriarchal society, its normal for you,
what would have been inconceivable to native ameircan indians
and many other cultures for that matter. And no wonder the
patriarchy seeks to abuse its kids, at least at large section.

Not everyone does it high however.....

Some poeple do it by cable TV.
Some people do it by sex-overdosing.
Some people do it by pharmaceuticals (largest population).
Some poeple do it be cannabis.
Some people do it by war.
Some people do it by religion.
Some people do it by extreme-exercise.

Experience is a drug. Everyone does it high.

life lives... i'm sayin' i guess, if you're not judgin',
it doesn't matter, as time heals.

It is my tragic flaw, addiction to thought.

Stoned unstoned whatever. The people on this planet are
beastly foul towards each other, taking most every
opportunity to land another punch, and if you think they'll
stop kiking you when your down, ha! It starts then. People
love to kick someone who's down, brainwashed beasts.

So since most persons presume cannabis smoker means "down",
they wind up to kick.
What if it isn't down.

What my despicable free will would choose to do something so
dirty and degenerate, or maybe those are preconceptions of what
cannabis is, and what "high" is, perpetrated by a corporate
police state who perceives it better if an infidel like myself
is imprisoned away from an internet terminal, or converted to
drugs they can control, but Anything than consider cannabis
smoking just no biggie and lets move on folks.

Some people get addicted to nicotine, and i can't fault them,
its fun to hang outside and talk with people in a secret club.
:-)

Mind will be dead soon enough, so if it can be altered, then cool!

grave with you.
The best you can hope for is to mostly be able to handle it most of the time. But it will surface when things are going badly for you. And there is not a whole lot you can do about it till things get better.

3-5 year old are alone in a dark room.......SCARY MAN SCARY. :rofl:
I think mom or dad has had some of their own drama to deal with and are projecting it on some little kid. Does this mean your kids have no privacy, no alone time?

I know plenty of kids who are frightened of the dark and who are terrified when they wake up in the dark and alone.
Gee, lacking in empathy a tad? Glad I'm not your kid.

My kids didn't sleep with me until 5, but I don't think there's anything wrong with parents who choose to do that.

I don't have my own drama to deal with so I'm not projecting it on them. I also believe that proper sleep is important to kids. But I do think that young kids also need to feel safe at night. I don't think parents need to co-sleep with their kids to facilitate that, necessarily. But I am very opposed to the style of parenting some have, in which they put the kids to bed at whatever time and expect not to hear from the kids again until morning. (Not that I'm not making generalizations about people who don't co-sleep, and I appreciate the same courtesy for those who *do* co-sleep.)

I would think that co-sleep was the least of your problem. Parents not prepared to parent? Most likely.

Make sure you don't go overboard the other way and smother your kids where they can't wait to get away as they get older. Kids need and deserve their own privacy.

don't worry. Got other fish to fry. Its about love... seemingly
more rare than gold these days.

and are projecting it on others. Most families are about love. Your story is not the norm but the exception. Maybe therapy? Over compensating for dysfunction is also dysfunction.

If you don't wan't anyone to reply to your horror story then don't post it.

I appreciate an honest comment, so who? Who have i harmed,
who is there in my life i'm torturing or comforting or
smothering or denying?

Nobody. Spare me the summary judgement. Its far flung and uninvited, thank you.

I feel sorry for you. I do.

The following is a bad joke that I couldn't help:

Maybe you just need a good nights sleep.


I am sorry, I am. I have booked my ticket to hell.

I write here to expose the truth, even if it is my own ugly truth,
ego, failure, bull-headed stupidity... i am the microcosm of bush indeed.

I am somebody who you should read the other 9000 posts before you
roll in with that bulldozer.... its more than facile... i'm just a
hollywood prop... a simulacra of the need to judge,
your visited postmodern appearance.

I have real ALL the posts. Maybe you should read ALL the posts. I am going to have to say ......therapy!

Well then when i'm rich i'll think about it. ;-)

Until then, i'm a product of your society, and i'm equal to you. Fuck off.

Each of our girls had between 12-15 months nursing, and we spent oodles of time with them. They slept in their own rooms in their own beds from about 2 months onward.

Our girls are 20, 17, and 14 and are wonderful, smart, fun, warm individuals. I, however, would have been one crabby Mommy without quality sleep.

I nursed my children, as well, and they got tons of holding and bonding and love. Sometimes they slept with us but most of the time they were in their own beds in their own rooms. It always seemed to me that they slept better in their own bed. They even would ask to be put to their own beds if they were falling asleep elsewhere or weren't feeling well. Sometimes nothing feels as good as snuggling down in your own space.

I enjoyed those rare times when the kids slept with us but the majority of the time they were in their own beds. They are 27, 18 and 14 and all three turned out just fine.

I don't see anyone here attacking parents who don't/didn't co-sleep, just saying they wish more would consider it.

Nice try but I don't try to argue with people out of a defensive posture as I have nothing to defend.

in what you are saying than we know. I would really be interested in seeing just how our US practices differ from the rest of the world's.

I think the bottom line rests with the child. My grandson was very ready by a year old to leave the family bed. He was a kicker and restless sleeper and woke up whenever his parents rolled over. He made the transition to a crib in his room effortlessly. However, if he had been horrified and sobbed about it, he'd still be in there. His sister I can see being in there much longer. She is more clingy than he ever was.

Where I think perhaps we make a mistake is in forcing things and "letting them cry it out." I'm not talking about three minutes of whining, tired fussing. I mean an hour of hyterical sobbing. The kind that makes mother's look longingly at the sherry bottle.

This is a fascinating subject to me because we are a culture with a whole lot of mood disorders, me, included. I was allowed to cry it out and so was my husband. Indeed, in his culture, German, his father was not allowed to touch him. I guess it comes as no surprise that they don't get along too well today.

I think that one important element in raising kids is intimacy. Cuddling, knowing each other's scents, seeing each other naked...these things help strengthen the bond. Can you bond without it? Sure. There are other ways. It is important also that we not feel guilt over the way we raised our kids. My sister, now 67, was supermom. But she bottle fed all four of them. That was then. Times have changed and we are all products of our culture.

But I have to agree that with so many moms working such long hours, that 8 hours of co-sleeping might really mitigate that sense of abandonment some children feel.

T-Grannie

I always thought that was cruel and inhumane.
I wouldn't do it to a pet, let alone a child.
When my granddaughter was born,she was very sick.
She stopped breathing at least 3 times, so it necessitated her being closeby.
My daughter and I alternated who she slept with so we could wake her up to breathe in those days.
She had a crib that we sold as brand new--as it was never slept in.
We have tried to give her her own bed. She doesn't want any part of it.
She usually comes into my room and falls asleep with me, then her mom moves her and she finishes the night in her room.
It would simply break her heart to put her in her own bed in her own room
With THIS child, I simply couldn't do it.

we should be happy that our kids want to cuddle and hug and hold our hand in public. There must be quality but quantity, also -- we should take every opportunity we get to get close to our kids.

Co-sleeping does depend on the child. Mine slept next to my bed, in a cradle, from birth to 4 months. He had apnea and it scared the bejeezus out of me, so I slept with my hand on his body the whole night (the "sleep" part of that may not have come into play much) so I could feel the rise and fall of his breathing. After that he went into a crib and then a bed -- but he never went to sleep alone; he was either rocked or held until he fell asleep; I sang to him every night and read stories after he was about 1. I suspect it was more for me than for him; he slept like a stone once he nodded off.

He was always welcome to sleep in my bed, though he was a thrasher and twister. I actually wound up with a black eye after he smacked me in the head with his heel (did I mention he was a twister?) when he was about 4. He didn't always want to sleep with me, though, so he had his own bed and his own room. But the option was there -- the choice was his, his room was right next to mine.

I think the saddest moment of my life as a mom was the day I realized that he had grown too big for me to tuck his head under my chin when I held him -- I had to admit he was growing up (he was about 4 or 5). Still, when he comes to visit me now (he's 26), he'll still curl up next to me on the couch and lay his head on my chest.
And he'll still hold my hand in public (he initiates, not me) -- though these days I suspect he thinks he's protecting me from wandering out into traffic in my dotage (punk!).

We just need to love our kids. The rest comes naturally, and no set of rules or the "latest" study will improve on a real relationship, developed in respect and love.

IMO, of course!

that was translated from German to English. You think I can remember the title of it?? It was basically about how the way German culture raised their children and how it led to the rise of Hitler.
There are some interesting parallels with the USA today.
Damn, if only I could remember the name of that book!

BANISHED KNOWLEDGE: FACING CHILDHOOD INJURIES
PICTURES OF A CHILDHOOD
Paths of Life: Seven Scenarios

I completely agree with your entire post. Unfortunately my own grandparents (I'm 32) tended to disagree with the way I raised my kids. Well, one of my grandparents supported it, but the others thought that I was picking up my kids too often and needed to teach my infants not to be dependent on me. That just made me sad. :( I'm glad to know there are still some people who support raising kids in a gentler manner.

Sorry to hear you all have such trouble at home.

Kids need to witness healthy marriage between two partners not two partners and 3 kids. They need a model of adulthood. The need to see parents interacting as adults and that children are the icing not the reason for having the marriage. Kids need their own lives like we need our own lives.

Let me guess...you homeschool too.

simply because they happen to sleep in their parents' bed for 8-12 hours a day until they're 5 or so??? It's not like the kids are chained to the parents. And it's not like the kids won't eventually have their own lives WHEN THEY GET OLDER. What is WITH people pushing kids to 'grow up' when they're TODDLERS.
And besides, I know a lot of progressive liberal non-fundy types that homeschool and have well-adjusted kids. I get tired of hearing 'homeschooling' thrown around as some sort of an insult. :eyes:

I don't think that Trixie has any children.

Forcing children to "grow up" too soon is dangerous to them. And if one's marriage is secure,
(namely, you have two mature adults who don't believe that sex is everything) then 3-5 years of
sleeping with a young child can be easily survived.

Far too many people want to "whelp" their children like puppies. Not possible. Raising human
children takes longer than raising puppies.

Our Babies, Ourselves by Meredith Small, a study on ethnopediatrics. This should enlighten you on the way parenting differs around the world.

Yes, co-sleeping is the norm outside the Western world. Along with extended breastfeeding, attachment parenting, etc.

To some of these cultures, think we Westerners are weird to have babies sleep in cages outside their parents' sleeping area!

it's ethnopediatrics -- there is a difference...

Co-sleeping doesn't last until the child is 21 and leaves home for goodness sakes.
How it works is the baby mostly sleeps with the mom to facilitate breastfeeding and so mom gets maximum rest. AS the baby gets older, baby takes more naps away from parents and might start out in his/her own bed but end up in parents' bed. By the time baby is 3-5 yrs , they sleep readily in their own beds. Like most kids. Probably like most kids around the world where space and money allows.
Much better than letting babies scream it out in a dark room by themselves, so they learn to not trust their parents and learn they can only rely on themselves.

If you're talking about indigenous cultures, their homes tend to be, er, rather small -- with some exceptions, of course. REAL small. So not only do kids sleep with mom and dad, but grandma, grandpa, auntie, cousin Jack, etc.

been THERE. Toddlers are there in the bathroom for it ALL!

The more the merrier!

"civilization" seems pretty ef'ed up in the US to me. How do you know that isn't one reason?

but it's close. As a Maternal/Child nurse, I support this wholeheartedly. OTOH, as I posted elsewhere, parents don't need one more thing to feel guilty about. What works for your family is what works for your family.

Options should abound, in my opinion.

We spend far too much time criticizing one another for our choices, and not enough time exploring all the possibilities.

We spend far too much time criticizing one another for our choices, and not enough time exploring all the possibilities.:thumbsup:

But we're talking emotional health, not ability.

I have four kids.
we successfully co slept with two of them.
My first, we strictly co slept. She would not sleep a foot away from us from the get go. She was an extremely fussy baby with possibly the worst colic ever witnessed, that lasted for 12 weeks. Once we started co sleeping, things started to chill out and I was able to NOT take medication to keep me sane.. seriously.
Our second also co slept with us while our first was also in our bed..(we just upgraded to a king! and were very creative in how/where/when we spent couple time. Believe me this was not a problem. I have four kids all under the age of 7!)
Our two youngest sons were not co sleepers, only because they displayed liking their own space. Even in infancy, they slept much better swaddled in a co-sleeper bed right next to my side of the bed. And when they outgrew that, they moved to a crib next to my bed, then on to their own rooms.
We followed our kids cues, and never had sleeping problems at all.

Also co sleeping aids breastfeeding mothers.
AND safe co-sleeping reduces the risk of sids.

As for crying it out. Personally I think its cruel. Your teaching babies and small children that you can't be trusted to attend to their needs, both physical and emotional. Small babies and toddlers do not need to learn to fend for themselves. They develop that independence as they grow on their own.

tended to roll over on them and smother the babies? Little pesky things seem to be either left out or ignored.

I think that is rare and certainly rarer then babies who die from SIDS, which usually only happens with children who sleep alone.

Only parents who are impaired by alcohol, medication or extreme fatigue are advised against cosleeping. And 'extreme fatigue' does not include the usual new parent tiredness.

which means when I babysit at night, I do, too. We use a little padded box about three inches high that keeps us from rolling onto her. However, I tend to just lie there and listen to her breathe. But those are good times.

and only very very very rarely with parents who weren't obsese and/or drunk and that, in theory, the likelihood of SIDS was reduced significantly so that it offset the risk.

At least that was what I heard...

Anyway, more importantly, people should read Freakanomics for perspective on the crazy tone of the exchange here.

outweight the very small chance of smothering your child.


“In the UK, 500 children a year die of Sids,” Sunderland writes. “In China, where it is taken for granted, Sids is so rare it does not have a name.”

and therefore, SIDS is rare.

Anyway, see my posts about Freakonomics below.

The parents usually send the child away to be taken care of by the grandparents... Granted, the grandparents often live in the same city or town, but even if the grandparents live in a different city or province, this will happen. This is done so both parents can concentrate on their careers, but they also still have somebody trusted raising their child.

And, this is not something where the grandparents take care of the child during the day - it is full time at least 5 days a week where the baby or infant stays with the grandparent the whole time, even overnight.

This is not just done in China, though. It is also common in India & Korea where the grandparents do most of the child rearing.

sleeping with kids and she stressed the roll over factor. Also just recently a woman was charged and convicted in michigan for rolling over on her baby and it died. No she wasn't drinking, she was just having a restless night of tossing and turning.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml99/99175.htm

Edited to ad link.

the severely obese parent, the intoxicated or drugged parent. co-sleeping is very safe, and normal.

www.askdrsears.com

during their first 18 months. Show me a study to back up that comment.

I slept with all three of mine, from birth to 5-6 months, and never got close to rolling over on them.

CPSC Warns Against Placing Babies in Adult Beds; Study finds 64 deaths each year from suffocation and strangulation. A review of incident data from January 1990 to December 1997 linked adult beds to at least 515 baby deaths. Analysis of the deaths revealed four major hazard patterns:


Suffocation associated with the co-sleeping of adult and baby.
Suffocation where an infant becomes entrapped or wedged between the mattress and another object.
Suffocation due to airway obstruction when the baby is face down on a waterbed mattress.
Strangulation in rails or openings on beds that allow a baby's body to pass through while entrapping the head.

Its only 64 deaths a year but why risk being one of the 64? BTW, go to search and type in sleeping with babies.

There has been a lot of media lately claiming that sleeping with your baby in an adult bed is unsafe and can result in accidental smothering of an infant. One popular research study came out in 1999 from the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission that showed 515 cases of accidental infant deaths occurred in an adult bed over an 8-year period between 1990 and 1997. That's about 65 deaths per year. These deaths were not classified as Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS), where the cause of death is undetermined. There were actual causes that were verified upon review of the scene and autopsy. Such causes included accidental smothering by an adult, getting trapped between the mattress and headboard or other furniture, and suffocation on a soft waterbed mattress.

The conclusion that the researchers drew from this study was that sleeping with an infant in an adult bed is dangerous and should never be done. This sounds like a reasonable conclusion, until you consider the epidemic of SIDS as a whole. During the 8-year period of this study, about 34,000 total cases of SIDS occurred in the U.S. (around 4250 per year). If 65 cases of non-SIDS accidental death occurred each year in a bed, and about 4250 cases of actual SIDS occurred overall each year, then the number of accidental deaths in an adult bed is only 1.5% of the total cases of SIDS.

There are two pieces of critical data that are missing that would allow us to determine the risk of SIDS or any cause of death in a bed versus a crib.

How many cases of actual SIDS occur in an adult bed versus in a crib?
How many babies sleep with their parents in the U.S., and how many sleep in cribs?

The data on the first question is available, but has anyone examined it? In fact, one independent researcher examined the CPSC's data and came to the opposite conclusion than did the CPSC - this data supports the conclusion that sleeping with your baby is actually SAFER than not sleeping with your baby (see Mothering Magazine Sept/Oct 2002). As for the second question, many people may think that very few babies sleep with their parents, but we shouldn't be too quick to assume this. The number of parents that bring their babies into their bed at 4 am is probably quite high. Some studies have shown that over half of parents bring their baby into bed with them at least part of the night. And the number that sleep with their infants the whole night is probably considerable as well. In fact, in most countries around the world sleeping with your baby is the norm, not the exception. And what is the incidence of SIDS in these countries? During the 1990s, in Japan the rate was only one tenth of the U.S. rate, and in Hong Kong, it was only 3% of the U.S. rate. These are just two examples. Some countries do have a higher rate of SIDS, depending on how SIDS is defined.

Until a legitimate survey is done to determine how many babies sleep with their parents, and this is factored into the rate of SIDS in a bed versus a crib, it is unwarranted to state that sleeping in a crib is safer than a bed.



more... http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/t102200.asp

And considering that the vast majority of infants do sleep in cribs, let's follow that logic to its conclusion. If around 7000 babies in the US die of SIDS each year (I found that info in a Blingo search), and common knowledge suggests that most babies sleep in cribs in the US, that suggests that sleeping in cribs is the far greater risk factor for SIDS than co-sleeping.

Citing that co-sleeping is more dangerous because it is linked to 64 deaths a year is like stating that walking is a dangerous form of transportation based on the number of pedestrian deaths without comparing them to the risk of death by car accident (who represent the majority). It's leaving out half the story.

Nearly all cases have been a parent has either been drugged or is drunk.
I slept with all my tiny babies from day 1 and you just KNOW where they are. Call it instinct. Even dh realized there's just no way to do that if you are sober.

Each of our kids slept with us until the next kid came along. I remember sleeping with my parents until I was 4 or 5, so it wasn't unheard of back in the 1950s.

were in their own beds, though.

He's the first thing I see in the morning and the last thing I see at night. And he sees us first. A child who is within reach is easier to tend at night, and he learns that his parents care enough to be there to meet his needs.

A child who learns he's not worth having his needs met is a child who learns that other people's needs are unimportant. That sort tends to grow up republican. NOT MY BABY!!!!

Very good to see a refuge of love...

I've learned a lot watching a bitch raise a litter of puppies.
The pups spend all their time co-sleeping with the parent until
they get older, and they co-sleeping and nursing extend until
weening... then the co-sleeping becomes more occasional... or
rather, all the dogs opt for co-sleeping in human-bed
with the big monkeys. The bed is sacred ground for even puppies.
They don't foul the bed, and have a ritual dog-rolling thing
that is funny in the morning.

The dogs touch me during the night, like
part of dog-co-sleeping is to touch another dog with your back.
When they wake up, they roll around and "snarf", playfully rolling
and jumping on each other and me, "oh boy, we're getting up!!!"
Tails wagggggg oh boy, this is the most exciting thing in the
entire universe."

Peace to loving kids and dogs... for all the cold draft
of bushian war criminality and lies, the maternal heart is
very warm indeed.

There is more to this of course, but you are on the right... er, correct path on this.

I got up and went to them when they cried as babies. Their needs were met and they slept in their cribs, and then beds, though I did bring them to bed as infants to nurse, or my husband brought them to me. I support your right to have your kids sleep in your bed, I just don't think it makes you a superior parent.

Some parents and children work great with having their kids in a separate bed in the same room or even in different rooms. Other parents and children decide to co-sleep. As my son grew bigger so did our bed (and yes we do co-sleep and he's 3). It doesn't make us better or worse parents. My nephew, who is about the same age as my son has slept on his own for the last year after previously co-sleeping. My niece co-slept for about 8 years until her mother (she was a single parent) met her future husband and moved in together. Then she ended up in her own bed.

As it is, we have a king sized bed and a toddler bed beside of it. If we can encourage our son to get into the toddler bed (or move him there after he falls asleep) we might indulge in nookie. However I'm often so tired from work anyway to even think of things of that nature.

It doesn't matter how you do it, it is the end result that matters. If you end up with stable, healthy, loving children who are an asset to society in general then you've "done your job correctly."

Mark.

I was wondering whether the new Sage had arrived yet. Welcome back to DU!

You're accusing all of us of not caring for other people's needs? hey.. if it works for you to have no privacy or intimacy, and to be mommy 24/7, then that's great for you. Seems to me that kids who have mommy at their will, grow up spoiled, actually.

Co-sleeping makes it easier for me to be there for my baby. I didn't say that people who don't co-sleep aren't there for theirs. Just said that my way is easiest for us, and reiterating the importance of being available to children.

And children aren't spoiled by having mom or dad on hand. They're are spoiled when mom and dad substitute things for love and validation.

As far as 'intimacy' and 'privacy', they aren't compromised at all by an infant sleeping at night in our bed. A little inventiveness, as noted on this thread, goes a long way. As for being a mommy 24/7, well, I knew what I was getting into. I'm certainly not complaining, and anyone who whines about it should have gotten themselves a puppy instead.

Let us know your views when child is 2 with a large poopy diaper that just spilled on your expensive sheets and your husband is sleeping on the couch.

Having an infant in your room does not count for co-sleeping.

As for the expensive sheets, they're not worth more to me than having my baby close is. My hubby sleeps in the bed with BabySage and I. Since I've experienced the 2yr old w/poopy diaper already with the 11yr old (albeit a loooongg time ago! lol) I doubt my views will change.

As for the expensive sheets, they're not worth more to me than having my baby close is.

:applause:

baby's morning face when they wake up or watching them sleep in your arms.

is that parents are forced to grab quickies when they can, just like back in high school! Makes sex a lot more spontaneous! (Like every time they leave the house)

My son and daughter had their own beds and never cried when they went to bed. They loved to go to bed! But invariably they got in with us during the night.

I have to agree that allowing a baby to cry is probably not a good thing in the long run. A few minutes, sure...but that awful screaming where they can hardly breathe? No.

We slept with our child for a long time but who says sex always has to be in bed and always at night? We found all sorts of opportunities at other times and places. For a really good time, well, that's what sitters are for. Other times, if our bed was a little crowded when the mood hit, there is always the spare room or the couch......or the car, camper, lawn blanket.....you get the drift. I think it actually made it a little more interesting.

I really think I can guarentee that. The stigma of "pedophile" is far FAR too strong here. I guess I am ultra-sensative to the issue as a gay man. I have heard whispers under peoples' breath for years linking gays and pedophelia. While it is a bunch of crap, in the minds of many Americans, simply liking men makes you a pedophile. And I am sure any one of us can come up with anecdotal evidence for other strange pedophile lore.

with their children, myself included.

It is becoming more popular then you would think. I would venture to guess that most breast feeding mothers end up sleeping with their children. It's just so much easier.

You sleep better.

You don't have to get up in the middle of the night to feed a crying baby.

And wasn't able to sleep at all. Got more sleep in between feedings with the baby in the same room but his own crib than I ever got with the kid in bed with me. And it only got worse as he got older because he was a 'mover'...all over the bed, kicking/hitting/squirming.

Sleep better? You are out of your mind.

at least you tried different things.

I slept with my kid and it worked great. I didn't at first because of all those voices in your head tell you it's not done. Then after awhile exhaustion sets in and you're going to be more willing to try anything else that might work.

I don't think anyone is saying you MUST co sleep with your baby/toddler/child.
I'm an advocate for it because it did work with two of my four children.
But my last two babies, were just very independent from the beginning and liked their own space.
Whatever works, ya know?

I tried keeping baby LeftyKid in a crib in my room, but I was so on edge waiting for that next earpiercing wail I would sleep very lightly when I slept at all. When I gave up on that and let him sleep with me I'd sorta halfway wake at the first murmur to nurse him and we both slept much better.

hubby had to sleep in guest room for five months b/c she was up a few times in the night and I would hold her. It worked great b/c we both got better sleep. He slept through the night and I had easy access to my baby and fell asleep faster. In the big picture now it's not that much time to sleep apart. That was over a year ago and now she dives into her crip and falls fast asleep through the night.

Bad joke about sleep deprivation. Sorry.

I'm always up for a bad joke. :)

for about 4 years. My partner is a very light sleeper and we found it worked better for everyone. Now, at the end of those 4 years I was damned good and ready to sleep in my own bed again! Our daughter now sleeps in a bed that is in another room but only about 20 feet from our bed and we are all very happy that way. :)

She may start out in her own... her soon-to-be 4-yr-old brother does too... but is a very rare night when they don't wake up around 2-3 a.m. and come crawling into our bed.

I don't see it as a glorious thing. I also don't see it as a horrible thing. It is what it is and, for the most part, none of us are the worse for wear.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: I don't get what all the hub-bub is about.

Furthermore, in order to sell books, they have to take extreme positions and then sound exceedingly sure of themselves.

I'm not pointing this out as a criticicism of the study cited above. But I do think there's sort of an insance tone among some of the posters, and I think it reflects that some have absorbed the discourse of the "experts" and replicate it in their own attitudes.

http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN006073132X&id=LkQPOSXMUscC&pg=PA148&lpg=PA147&printsec=8&vq=expert&dq=freakonomics&sig=tdGElcYL4JyuLRSewygci6zcJ_I

http://www.freakanomics.com/

And the corporate-media are selling bigger houses.

Baby forumula, disposible diapers, seats, prams, rollers,
carriers, shoes, clothes, toys, and an infinite list
of "things" to be purchased and paid for.

Parenting is economic, before its freakonomic.

Parents work, and can spend a week without being even
near their child emotionally, when kids need mommy "now".
Stay at home guardians being paid by the state is best, IMO.
Its cheaper than a prison cell in later life to apply
preventive social parenting support from government, that
even poor children have an opportunity to have a more
mother contact.

The lower underclasses should be our concern if we are being geunuine
progressive elites, and those people may be lucky by default, perhaps
not having as much money to afford so many bedrooms to start with...
so perhpas its a self-defeating question, as the pooerest get the
benefit of the study by accident of economics.

five of them spent the better part of their first two years in our king-sized bed. It made it much easier to nurse them in the middle of the night. If I had known beneficial this sleeping arrangement was, I would have had the first two (whom I also nursed) in bed with us. All of our children have done well in school and the first five are all responsible adults.

I slept with all three of my children ... it worked well for us.

For those that don't like the idea of it or tried it and don't like it don't do it.

distance.

and all the kids turned out to be reasonable adults.

And that's the best any parent can hope for.

Even in the hospital I hated those 'rubber' sheets or what ever they are made of that they use for kids and in hospitals for adults.

it ensures they won't 'turn gay' supposedly.

always insisted that this was the way to go. she raised her child this way, and her daughter is extremely well-adjusted and has quite a remarkable personality.

I always felt it was totally natural to let a child small sleep with you instead of always having to sleep separated in a room alone. Not that kids can't get used to that, or that it's harmful, but if my five year old is scared at night and wants to sleep with us, I never had the heart to march her back to her room. It just never felt right to me. She's going on six now and is beginning to be more "grown up" and sleep in her own bed most of the time now, so I think this just naturally works itself out.

Why are you not fixing that? I think people think that if you don't co-sleep that the kids are screaming on their way to their rooms, crying all night etc. Hardly! They love their rooms and their privacy. They have their secret storage spaces and we respect their privacy. They can sleep with siblings, we don't care. The most important thing is that they are not fearful. If your child is afraid don't just co-sleep actively find out the cause and cure the fear.

Fears are complex. Dh is scared of heights. Can't even go up a ladder. How exactly should his parents have 'fixed' his fear?

about this at this point. Would have to read more.

....Her findings are based on advances in scientific understanding over the past 20 years of how children’s brains develop, and on studies using scans to analyse how they react in particular circumstances.

For example, a neurological study three years ago showed that a child separated from a parent experienced similar brain activity to one in physical pain.

Sunderland also believes current practice is based on social attitudes that should be abandoned. “There is a taboo in this country about children sleeping with their parents,” she said.

“What I have done in this book is present the science. Studies from around the world show that co-sleeping until the age of five is an investment for the child. They can have separation anxiety up to the age of five and beyond, which can affect them in later life. This is calmed by co-sleeping.”

My mom credits that with saving my brother's life when he had breathing difficulties at the age of three weeks. She heard him struggling, got up, saw that he was turning blue, and did the recommended anti-choking maneuver for small children (turned him upside down and slapped his back). A big glob of mucus came out.

She always said that if he'd slept in another room, she'd have probably found him dead in the morning.

it works for us for now. We sleep well. My husband doesn't sleep well with her so he moved into the guest room. That's also our place for romance, for those who feared that you don't have sex if the kid sleeps with you. You do still have sex, and just as often, you just have it somewhere else.

My youngest slept with us until he was 8, when I finally kicked him out for lack of space.
It was great.

You sleep with your child and not your husband? That doesn't seem wrong to you?

we do what works for us. We're all happy. It doesn't really matter what you think about it.

If you want your kids to sleep in another room, that's cool. Different approaches work better for different families.

But why the fuck are you crawling up the asses of people who choose to arrange things differently?

that has not slept with their kids at some point. I just think people don't make a big deal out of it. Most of the people I know didn't let their kids in their bed because of bonding, but so that mom and dad could get some sleep!!

I think "specialists" should just shut up. Whatever works for people is what works for people, it really is that simple.

These "specialists" you refer to can often be the deciding factor in criminal and custody trials. Their word is law in many cases.

This is why I'm not really into psychology, it's such an inexact science that it shouldn't even be called a science. If you're looking for laughs, find some old back issues of Psychology Today.

Two adults, a 7 year-old, and a 4 year-old. We both dread the day when the kids decide they want to sleep in their own beds, alone. There will be lots of years ahead of us without children around, and we're not willing to speed that up.

What does co-sleeping do? It offers instant reassurance during bad dreams or half-waking moments, the sound of others' breathing, the closeness of family, opportunities to touch and hold and comfort.

One of the most important things we did as new parents was ignore the book and human advice to let them "cry it out" in their cribs/beds.

.. is that their parents don't care about them.
Especially babies.

I couldn't stomach it. My kids each have their
own room, and they each sleep in their own bed,
but the 10 year-old will crawl in with us if
she has been foolish enough to watch a scary movie.

I still lie down with each of them when they go
to bed at the end of the day. It is usually the
only time we have with each other, one-on-one.
It can be a pain in the neck, but it's usually how
I find out what's REALLY going on in their lives
(they're 10 and 14) and how they are coping with
the stresses of Junior High and High School.

I nursed them both for a year, they are just fine, I never let them cry without attending to them. I probably would have driven off the road from exhaustion and killed us all if either one of them had slept with us- they both move around all night long and kick and squirm and pull blankets- we both work- we need sleep. Sorry- my kids got plenty of love, hugs, cuddles, kisses every day . They didn't need to be in our bed to get that love.

It is unhealthy for kids to sleep in the same bed. THey have to learn to be in their own beds early just like they get potty trained, stop drinking from a baby bottle, etc. All part of growing up.

My daughter slept with me until she was around 8 while my husband slept on the couch. Never had a problem finding places for sex. Helps out if they are sick and need you in the middle of the night.

8 years of sleeping on the couch? Few people get a really good night's sleep on a couch - that's why we buy beds. Did you ever think of getting a single bed for him instead?

No offense, but I have three kids, and none of them were permitted in my bed much past two years old. If my wife had forced me out of bed in favor of the kids, I'd have divorced her.

If they're sick and need us, we're only twenty steps away.

It is the opposite of unhealthy. Well 'attached' infants and toddlers become very independent and confident children and adults.

www.askdrsears.com

It is unhealthy for a newborn to have to scream from another room before someone wakes up to tend to them.
When they are close, at least in the same room, they don't have to suffer.

Before 6-8 months, babies have no concepts except comfort and pain. It's a parents responsibility to make sure they experience as much comfort as possible and as little pain as possible.

Mine started in my bed, by 1 year they were in their own room. occasionally they woke up in the middle of the night and came in for comfort. they are all well-adjusted, and have no doubt that they are loved.

And mustn't forget, have to speed up that growing up phase! Get 'em out of that bed! The earlier the better (preferably as newborns!) or they'll NEVER learn! It helps to form 'em into little indepedent adults as quick as possible, because that's the healthiest.
:sarcasm:
Seriously man, do some reasearch before you go all spouting off about it being 'unhealthy'. Pushing kids to grow up too fast isn't healthy either.

edited for to/too typo

...get in trouble for stuff like this?:spank:

Welcome to DU. I think?

...is different from sharing a family bed with one's own children.

Jackson maintained that these sleepovers were innocent. Others alleged that he was luring them into his private bedroom for sex or molestation -- that's what he got into trouble for.

breath and snored LOUD.

even small children need their privacy, time to think and imagine.

parents in an altered state are not able to hear or feel cues that a smaller person is in bed with them. so you are correct to be thankful.

even as they co-slept at night they have plenty of time during the day to play in their rooms, alone. Nighttime is for comfort, daytime is for thinking and imagining, imo.

Snark.

Co-sleeping is normal. For the vast majority of couples, sleeping together is a primal comfort. Yet, we as Americans shudder when it is suggested that perhaps human children might get the same mental health benefits. My gawd! What next? Being kind makes kids turn gay?! Being taught logical consequences turns our children into heartless sociopaths? Lemme guess, we can beat the truth out of our children and they will respect us!!

Rolling over onto children? Okay, let's concede that it does indeed happen. Let us also concede that there are about 1000 other ways for young children to die which are more statistically probable. That, however, as a rally-cry against co-sleeping is just a ridiculous, fallible argument.

All children are different and have different needs throughout their lives. If that is taken as the starting point for deciding what is best for your child then you will go much further in making rational, healthy decisions for your children, should you choose to breed.

I like to look at these scenarios holistically. The US is notorious for our rampant mental health issues. We pride ourselves (and it is a veneer at best) on our individuality and pull-yourself-up-by-your-own-bootstraps bullshit modus operandi. What is considered normal in our society is wholly relative, but the disparity between what we consider to be "normal" and what really could be considered in the best interest of our offspring are two different things. I personally give two squirts of urine about what other people consider to be "normal" child rearing practices. I did my research, like any other sentient and caring parent, when looking into what would be best for my daughter, and when the cry-it-out method of preparing children for healthy sleep habits presented itself, I scoffed audibly.

Teaching a child to deal with fear in that manner is utterly ridiculous. It is artificial and non-representative of actual traumas that we as humans will inevitable need to deal with. It smacks (all puns intended) of all those adults I know that use corporal punishment as a vehicle to teach children "discipline". Learning healthy sleep habits is not the proper format with which to teach children to deal with fear. Sleep and fear are not proper bed-fellows, so-to-say. I, for one, am not going to predispose my child to fear. I think our culture gets off on it in a nearly fetishistic manner. Screw that.

My daughter has co-slept with me on and off since she was ripped out of my abdomen. I kicked her out briefly (and did a very gentle version of sleep-training) when she started sleeping rather fitfully, and have resumed the practice since then. There were ways of working around me not getting enough sleep that were respectful to me and her. She can sleep alone, but prefers the comfort of me being there most of the time, and that is okay because she is still young (four-years-old).

Will I continue this much longer? Probably not. She is starting to get to a point where she wants to sleep by herself and I do not deny her that. But a lot like breastfeeding, children tend to stop when they are ready. Breastfeeding is as much about comfort as it is about gaining nutrients, but I hardly think that it was a marker of how "NEEDY" my child was/is. Children have needs that extend beyond our own. We are adults raising them--there are solutions to every parenting issue. I am a single mom, and she this helped her immensely throughout the separation.

Is this for every child? No. But until you remove the idea that sleeping separately is normal, there is no way of looking at this with a clear and logical head. Humans are as much mammal as any other creature and we keep denying those animal needs--no wonder Americans are more needy, lonely, maladjusted, and predisposed to divorce than most other cultures in the Western world.

Sheesh. Next thing, people are going to start telling me that worshipping youth culture, not caring for our old and mentally ill, and taking away women's reproductive rights is normal.

to DU!

good post!

Most peoples around the world do not have the wealth that can provide space for separate bedrooms. Communal sleeping arrangements are more common.

Among western Europeans, separate bedrooms, except for the highest classes of society, were rare until recent times. Historically, most peasant or urban worker families had a single large bed, in which all members of the family, and even guests, would sleep together (a la Willy Wonka).

sleep on its own in order to grow independant don't realize that the more secure you can make your young child, the more secure and independant it will be as an adult.

My kids started off sleeping with me because it meant I didn't have to really wake to feed them. I was exhausted from hardworking days, and needed my sleep. I'm not a cuddly person, as I was never cuddled as a kid, so it was the beginning of a long learning experience for me. Most of what I learned about parenting my children taught me, by letting me know what they needed.

From there they graduated to a bassinet on the floor right beside me, then a cot in my room, and then the cot was moved into the next room. but they were always welcome to come back, and all did whenever there was a thunderstorm. I have huge windows beside my kingsize bed, and even now my sons, both in their 20s, and daughter and granddaughter, when they are visiting, all come into my room at night and open the windows wide if there is a spectacular thunderstorm going on.

That might sound as though they grew up wimpy, but they haven't, just close and affectionate. When one son, with aspergers, went on school camps, the teachers were worried that he wouldn't cope. But they found he was the one who got out and helped the teachers when rain flooded out the tents in a thunderstorm, and winds tore some apart. And he seemed to enjoy the storm.

Does anyone remember watching the Cosby show... when everyone including Theo would pile into the big Huxtable bed.... I don't think think this is a new phenomenon. I remember at times I used to sleep next to my siter... or we'd go curl up with our parents.... Putting a silly name on this is stupid. As well as the whole comfort or not comfort fear.... As a parent you know the difference between a nightmare and a child who is whining because they want to stay up... and you know which ones you mind and which ones to ignore... if you don't maybe we should really think about that licensing for parents.

we plan on it when we have kids. my husband co-slept with his parents until he decided he wanted his own bed at 3. Got a little one in their room until he wanted to transition to his own room at about 4.

I feel the same way about it as I do breastfeeding- do it as long as is mutually beneficial to the parent and child.

from birth until almost into adolescence, and the 2 young adults who are strong, balanced and independent now, while showing us lots of love and respect (now, this is a surprise to us after how we both felt about our parents in our early 20s!) tends to show me that it was the best thing we could have done for them in such a busy, often nutty world that we live in now.

For us it was fun, deliciously cosy, and no one lost sleep.


DemEx

I'm not on either side of this discussion. I don't care where people sleep, but I do wish it wasn't called co-sleeping, because if there's anything we don't need it's another buzzword.

In my experience, twenty-somethings are much fonder of their parents than their parents were of their own parents at that age in general. I've noticed that a lot, with my son and his friends and also the way the online community that he belongs to talks about their parents. Also with parents of grown children. Adult kids seem to welcome their parents into aspects of their lives that we generally didn't. I think there really was a generation gap when some of us were young that just isn't there now.

I still stand by my strong feeling that the nighttime intimacy was good for all of us, and from the dysfunctional families that my husband and I grew up in without good guidelines to parent, this helped us make and maintain strong bonds with our kids.

Not for everyone perhaps, but for us it was very positive.

Perhaps the children from the 60s were just more laid back and fun-loving with their children.....less of a generation gap?

DemEx

The codes of behavior from the WWII generation to the baby boomers was so different. My parents were reasonable, liberal and I liked them a lot and felt lucky to have them. I didn't want them within ten miles of my social life 90% of the time, though. Maybe 95%. That seems to have changed considerably. I was so surprised when our son asked us to come hear his band..often. Seemed really glad when we did. I would have paid my parents to stay away if I were in a band as a young person. When he and his girlfriend invited us to their parties...not family parties...friend type parties, I was amazed. Even more surprising, that seems to be typical.

On the sleeping thing - The way I remember it is that unless you're a real hardass parent, kids end up sleeping pretty much where they want when they're little, no matter what plans the parents have.

The way I remember it is that unless you're a real hardass parent, kids end up sleeping pretty much where they want when they're little, no matter what plans the parents have.

Both my kids made it clear that sleeping with us was far preferable to their beds in their own bedrooms - they always had the choice - but didn't take up on it until they were older.

:-)

The OP as stated, that kids "should" sleep with parents is one I would not support anyway - I think it is up to each family to see how sleeping arrangements are set up, taking cues from what individual children show that they need, and what parents can offer.

DemEx

My son likes to take naps with someone. He prefers to be held while he gets sleepy for bed. But at night his bed is the only place he will rest comfortably. (18 mo and already knows)

about their needs is what it is all about IMO.

:hi:

DemEx

My son just didn't sleep. My daughter was easy. A sound sleeper and she could sleep on a bed of nails. No night fears..not even a nightlight. When she got older she had some, but not when she was a baby or toddler. My son, OTOH, didn't sleep anywhere for about two years. He seemed to have been born with his nervous system on the outside. High strung from birth. In his crib, he'd thrash around and wake up from hitting the bars. He never took enough at a feeding to keep him full for long and nothing we did helped. He ate a little, slept a little, cried a lot. Once teething started that was a nightmare from hell. I was so tired I didn't care where the sleeping happened. All I wanted was to be able to shut my eyes. I used to fall asleep on the couch with him a lot and when he got a little bigger he did his best sleeping on the loveseat while I was on the couch. That was fine with me. Oddly enough, all that stopped when he was big enough for a youth bed. We got him one, put him to bed like a big kid, read a story or two and he was fine from then on.

Other than being cramped it wasn't a big deal.

My kids always spun like helicopter rotars in bed. I slept with them no more than I had to. Mom needs her sleep and her sanity, too.

But speaking of other peoples kids in your bed....


One night, my daughter had a friend sleep over. In the middle of the night, a kid crawled into our bed and cuddled up next to us. I just figured Melanie's friend was keeping her awake and she decided to get into bed with us (something she very rarely did, by the way). So I kissed her on the head and rolled over and went back to sleep. In the morning, I woke up and saw Jenna in our bed! It was pretty freaky, I have to tell you! She got up, said good morning and went back to Melanie's room. Thankfully her parents did not think we were doing anything inappropriate (and thankfully we were not naked or having sex or anything when she crawled into bed with us).

My husband (before we met) was babysitting a friend's three kids. He put them all to bed and then went to bed himself. In the middle of the night, he rolled over -- and put his hand right on a kid. On her lower area, if you know what I mean. The youngest had crawled into bed with him. He got up and spent the night on the couch. When Mom got home he told her the whole story immediately and she was cool with it, but lord, could he have gotten in trouble . . .

FIRST: You can kill a baby by sleeping with it in your bed.
SECOND: Adults do not become baby-drones when they give birth. Do women EVER get a break from the children?
THIRD: I've seen the effects of a child that was allowed to sleep with the parents on demand for a few years or so, until she was three. Do you think that she took banishment from mommy & daddy's bedroom well? No is an understatement.
FOURTH: If you have any hope of intimacy, and I don't mean sex, you need alone time.
FIFTH: Sex.

it didn't seem to hamper our sex life. They have bed attachments called "cosleepers". They keep the baby right next to mom, but not actually in the bed. Usually start the night in that, then when they wake to nurse, bring them up to the bed.

Children are genetically programed to stay close to their caretakers, especially in the dark. Imagine if children felt comfortable running off alone into the woods at night, how many would survive their childhood? Fear of the dark and fear of sleeping alone is our biology's way of keeping children safe. I taught for a while in Papua New Guinea and many of my friends there grew up in virtually stone age cultures. Children were never left to sleep alone. To do so was considered cruel and dangerous.

Remember in our western society that it was primarily male doctors who, in the 1940's and 1950's, told their female patients not to breast feed their children. It was considered "lower class" to do so. We now know that that was very bad advice. Breast feeding is the safest and healthiest practice.

It was probably those same doctors who told parents that it was unhealthy to allow children to sleep in their beds. Pity the poor children whose strong natural drive was to sleep close to their parents when they were then punished or disciplined for trying to do so.

Just like newborn kittens automatically know how to find their mother's nipples to suck, so our newborn are programed to stay close to their caretakers and cry when left alone. And we mothers are similarly programmed to want our babies near us and to respond to their crying.

It's great that there is now scientific research to "back-up" what is deep in our biology.

simply because i found out how much easier it was to nurse her that way. My mom is a very anti-breastfeeding and anti-co-sleeping, and she lived close by, so I had to wade through a lot of guilt to get to an arrangement that worked. My daughter slept in the bed with me on and off til she was 4, and then she made the decision to go to her own bed.

My youngest slept in my room til she was about 11 months, then she went into her own room close by. She never wanted to sleep with me after that, because her sister had her own room and she wanted to be a big girl like her sister. Now, we moved her and her sister into the same room just last week because they always sleep together. My sister and I slept in the same bed when I was young, but my mom didn't approve of that, either. I figure whatever makes my kids feel most secure is fine.

doubt if that would have worked out well

bed. They are all normal and in their 20s, turned out fine. Probably don't even remember it. Of course we always had to make other arrangements for private time. It was worth it.

let our girls sleep with us until they chose not to. One stopped completely by the time she was five, the other stopped, for the most part, later on; however, would come crawling in with her mama when she had a bad dream. *sigh*

Both have grown up to be very secure and confident in themselves, if I do say so myself.

with it, I belive he's a more secure child for it.

though we did spend 5 years in japan all in one room at night... carried over the tradition when we got back home =)

I sleep alone, and that's one of the reasons I sleep well. On the rare occasion that I share a bed, I don't sleep (I either worry about how much room I'm taking up in the bed, or I'm getting kicked by the other person....).

I don't think I would perform very well throughout the day if I had to settle for the amount of sleep I would get if I had to share my bed. I'd be terrible at work, and probably a very cranky parent.

He slept in his own bed.

About a woman who breastfed her kids, 10, 7 and 5. Kids would walk up to her and whip the darn things while company was over. I almost fell on the floor laughing when I read it.

BTW, the column is called Annie's Mailbox and written by two of her staffers.

I don't think that it is an important enough issue in child-rearing to pay lots of money to study.

Some kids like to sleep with their parents. Most little kids like to during thunderstorms, or come into bed on Sunday mornings for a few minutes (this was what we did as kids) before getting up for breakfast and church. Some kids don't want to sleep with their parents at all.

It's hardly a matter to debate.