.....after the WH Idiot and his handlers go after this church.:scared: But I love the idea and wish more churches would act likewise.:applause: :bounce:

....about his policies when his own church turns against him??:wow: I wish more neocons knew about this.

In another thread someone posted a link to a web site where neocons, liberals, libertarians, progressives, and others can take each other on. Maybe this should go over there.:bounce:

The average member in the pew isn't against him.

Western Washington is one of the most liberal areas in the country.

Why do I have bad visions of the fbi using their famous Waco killer, tear gas tank on a church?

contrary to the urban legend, it wasn't Billy Graham that led him to Jesus, but an eveangelical preacher. I heard it was in a Midland diner. Graham had met W when he was younger. W. is an evangelical and connects with the emotional evangelicals.

I do like religion and am proud to be a Methodist. Good on them.

I just doubt that Christianity will ever recover from the damage inflicted on it, both to it's reputation and quality, by the "Christian" right.

where the congregations are actually acting like christians. if we can make this "religious left" a lobbying force to equal the right the world will be better off.

...plan peace marches. We had over 4,000 in attendance in March to be probably the largest per capita in the U.S. http://www.communitiesforpeace.org/

I just dont go as often as my mother would like.


Dont label us all =p

http://www.gbgm-umc.org/fumctacoma/

any church with active ministries appreciate donations and support, and they're going to be deductable..........just sayin':applause:

Soulforce Donations



Soulforce operates a streamlined organization that emphasizes nonviolent direct action in the ongoing struggle for GLBT rights in America. We want you to know that every donation helps and every donor is sincerely appreciated.

You can make an online donation using the secure form below.

Soulforce, Inc. is a 501(c)(3) organization and all contributions are tax-deductible.

Donate
http://www.soulforce.org/index.php

We're not all crazy wingnuts.

isnt living love a beautiful thing?

That would be interesting, wouldn't it?


See also:

Methodist Bishops Repent Iraq War 'Complicity'
By Kaukab Jhumra Smith

WASHINGTON — Ninety-five bishops from President Bush's church said Thursday they repent their "complicity" in the "unjust and immoral" invasion and occupation of Iraq.

"In the face of the United States administration's rush toward military action based on misleading information, too many of us were silent," said a statement of conscience signed by more than half of the 164 retired and active United Methodist bishops worldwide.

President Bush is a member of the United Methodist Church, according to various published biographies. The White House did not return a request for comment on the bishops' statement.

Although United Methodist leadership has opposed the Iraq war in the past, this is the first time that individual bishops have confessed to a personal failure to publicly challenge the buildup to the war

(Sorry, only link I have is to Faux News):
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,175245,00.html

not Methodist. His father was a Baptist preacher as well.



:hi:

He's a member of First United Methodist Houston. He even held a press conference right in front of the church sign before the trial. He often called the media to invite them to hang out at the church while he was attending. The church didn't seem to mind.

His father was Baptist, but Ken Lay is Methodist.

As Methodist as the day is long.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3621162.html

thanks for information. Interesting that Lay became a Methodist.

providing haven for dissent has been restored? My God there is hope for mankind.

Things are heating up now........

the head of the church did everything he could to stop this war..the august and sept before bush started war..he sent out a notice to all the church heads..and the media..he said they would do this war no matter what..and when dim son had the catholic church heads and baptist come to the white house..he did not invite his own church..in fact he excluded them deliberately even when they begged to see him..

fly

Even though I am an atheist, I respect those Christians who have actually read and strive to emulate the teachings of Jesus. I won't say what I think of all of the anti-Christs who've 'jacked Jesus. The Methodist church has set an example all Christian churches need to follow.

TACOMA - The 300-member congregation's administrative council of the First United Methodist Church of Tacoma has declared itself to be a sanctuary for servicemen and servicewomen who don't want to go to Iraq. The council voted last weekend to open its doors to those service people beginning Saturday, church officials said on Wednesday.

The decision by the church comes after 1st Lt. Ehren Watada, a Fort Lewis Army officer, announced that he won't go to Iraq although he could face two years in prison for failing to deploy. A statement from the church said that service members "who are unable to deploy to combat areas for reasons of conscience" can find protection behind its doors.

Smith said the church stands "in solidarity" with others who hold similar views on Iraq. The church said it was essentially providing a protective space and resources to those contemplating whether to resist deployment to Iraq, Smith said. Watada, 28, a native of Honolulu, is a member of the 3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division, the Army's first Stryker Brigade Combat Team. The unit is set to begin leaving this month for a second mission in Iraq. This would be Watada's first deployment to Iraq.

http://www.komotv.com/stories/43932.htm

I've been writing to various churches asking that they do JUST this.

The United Methodist Church has an official policy of discrimination against gays. Niether unjust wars nor "homosexuality" are "compatible with the practice of the Christian faith".

The policy is against homosexual sex, performing homosexual unions, or ordaining homosexuals.

The policy also states, however, that homosexuals are every bit as worthy, sacred, welcome, and deserving of basic rights and liberties as everyone else.

So be gay all you want in the Methodist church, just don't get married, have sex, and then want to be a preacher.

Is it ideal? IMHO, no. Is it way better than most? Absolutely.

This page gives more info on the Methodist doctrine on homosexuality.
http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Home&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=21767

I dare say most Methodists like a lot of gays they know better than they like a lot of Baptists they know. :P

Indeed, how is it better than any?! AS for Baptists, it's EXACTLY the same policy as the American Baptists, and not much different than the Southern Baptists.

At least Baptists aren't trying to play both sides against the middle.

And what does it mean to be gay of you can't have sex or get married?

Yeah, great policy!

But let's take emotion out of it and look at some facts.

Many other Protestant denominations have similar policies. United Church of Christ is one who has come out as pretty much completely pro-homosexual, but even they only did so in July of last year, and still give their different congregations the right to disagree.

A strong tenet of the Baptist church is evangelism and mission work. This tenet is not as strong in many other denominations, such as Methodist, Anglican, Lutheran, etc. Evangelism means getting out there and making sure other people think the same way as you do, sometimes using extreme measures. I think most of us know where strong evangelism can lead us.

American Baptists (who are the minority of Baptists, with Southern Baptists being the majority, in fact the Protestant majority in the US) do believe in the autonomy of the local churches, which has led to schisms when trying to determine their official doctrine on homosexuality.

But to say the Methodist doctrine (and some other Protestant denomination's policies) on homosexuality is not much different than the Southern Baptist's is confusing. Bottom line -- the SB doctrine very much supports discrimination, and, it could even be argued, hate.

Southern Baptists believe in bringing homosexuals into the fold only for the purpose of converting them. SBs believe that homosexuality is a choice and that gays can and should be "fixed" with enough therapy and intervention. SBs encourage lawmaking that discriminates against homosexuals. SBs condemn homosexuals whether or not they are in a same-sex relationship. SBs oppose schools that teach acceptance and workplaces that encourage diversity.

http://www.hrc.org/Content/ContentGroups/Issues1/Religion/Southern_Baptist_Convention.htm

BOTTOM LINE: All denominations have disagreements. That doesn't make their members bad -- it makes them human. Every person and every organized group of any sort has good and bad sides. The whole point of the original post was to recognize an organized group who are not afraid to take a stand for what most of us at DU consider a noble cause. For that fact, they should be recognized, supported, and thanked, no matter what name their group goes by.:dilemma:

The United Church of Christ ordained its first gay pastor in 1972. First Lesbian pastor in 1977. Both of these are still serving today. The UCC's polity means that all churches, Assocations, and Conferences are autonomous--make their own decisions. Associations ordain, and only three associations (not sure how many there are--associations are divisions within Conferences. There are 39 Conferences) have said for certain that they will not ordain gays or allow them to be called. The vast majority of associations have gay clergy and two conferences have gay conference ministers (the equivalent of a bishop).

The General Synod of the UCC (which speaks only for itself--it, too, is autonomous) voted last summer to affirm gay marriage as equal to straight marriage. Churches were free to do gay marriages before this, and many did. What happened last summer was that GS affirmed what many churches have already been doing.

And I still don't see how "the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with the Christian faith" is any different from "homos are going to hell".

mainstream churches doing anything

this is the number, if anyone wants to do likewise

253-627-0129

If I wasn't ouside the US, I would call them and give them this link (and others, re: google "Kevin Benderman" ):

http://www.topia.net/kevinbenderman.html

Hoping DUers who can will do it for Kevin (and ALL COs of this illegal occupation).

On edit: spelling.

This gives me goosebumps and tears. Good for them.

My understanding is that Watada enlisted in the Spring of 03, after the Iraq invasion. He then went to Officer Training and is now a 1st Lieutenant.

Watada was over the age of accountability when he joined the Army. He chose to serve knowing we were invading Iraq. He had ample access to information about the military and the Iraq invasion before he joined voluntarily.

While I can certainly understand his new conscience regarding the war, he made the choice to enlist and become an officer in the military.

If anyone can offer a rationale for why our military should NOT hold him to his agreement, I'd like to hear it. Although I believe the invasion itself was unlawful, he joined the military AFTER the invasion. He knew (or should have known) exactly what he was getting into.

I'm sure many here will disagree. Personally, I can't see a reasonable defense for his conscientious objection to the Iraq War.

I don't know the story extremely well, but short of a change in religion for him, if he didn't have faith when he signed up, would be the only way out of that agreement he made... which to me, is pretty much binding unless they want to let him out of it.

it has been PROVEN to have been based on lies and disinformation.
There WERE and ARE no WMD's except in 'our' hands.

The oath is to defend America is it not? Are there not instances where the call to duty can be violated because it violates a persons belief in what is moral, legal, and honorable?

If told to murder a civillian, would a soldier HAVE to obey? If told to commit suicide would they have to do it?

The war is illegal.

Korean War and the Persian Gulf War to name a few.

But who cares what the Constitution says?

He is refusing to follow an illegal order.

What exactly does this word "sanctuary" mean? If Watada enters the building, because it's a church, the law can't go inside and bring him out to answer for his action? We may agree with his action this time for our own political reasons, but I am not overfond of the idea of a church building as a "you can't arrest me" place: let's say an unethical priest wants to give his brother sanctuary so the brother won't get arrested for beating his wife. Is that also allowable under this concept?

.. modern states.

Medieval versions may have allowed, for example, persons in danger of being imprisoned for debt an opportunity to negotiate more convenient repayment terms and those engaged in bloodfeuds a chance for reconciliation, provided they laid down their arms upon entry.

You consider the case under discussion to be the moral equivalent of spousal battery?

I studied the literature of the European Middle Ages in college. I am asking about US law. What is parallel between the news story and my hypothetical situation is that a person wanting to avoid the reach of secular law enters a church building ... and then what? The law can't enter the building? and if not, why not? Because all accused persons have a legally recognized right to sanctuary? Or is it an English common-law custom that places in the US recognize but do not codify (like common-law marriage)?

on edit: Holy cow. I have been just doing some quick research, and besides learning that my original position was wrongheaded (though I still have some little reservations), I have found some very ugly writing by the fascist statists against this concept vis-a-vis illegal immigration. I can only imagine how these churches will be vilified by these people. Brave to do.

It's that the government doesn't want the bad publicity.

so proud of you guys!!!

Sanctuary

When the peace march commemorating the 24th anniversary of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima began in Kapi‘olani Park, none of the hundreds of participants knew that theirs would be the early steps in a peace movement that would split a church in two, involve a BBC documentary crew in a road race across Honolulu and cause U.S. military forces to invade two local churches. But that’s what happened.
The march on Aug. 10, 1969, from Kapi‘olani Park to Ala Moana Park, was led by an alliance of GIs and civilians demanding a “bill of rights” for military personnel. Organizers wanted to form a Hawai‘i chapter of the American Serviceman’s Union, a national group of dissenters within the military.
By the end of that day, six servicemen went AWOL and sought sanctuary inside the Church of the Crossroads on University Avenue. The six joined Louis “Buffy” Perry, who had entered the church amid a flurry of publicity on Aug. 6. “I’ve chosen to begin a lifestyle of noncooperation, on any level, with the military establishment,” Perry told reporters. “I urge all my brothers and sisters to do the same.”

http://www.honoluluweekly.com/archives/coverstory%202003/03-12-03%20Sanctuary/03-12-03%20Sanctuary.html

Can churches offer sanctuary? This is a serious question, I don't know the answer. What is the status of this sancutary offer? What does it really mean?

Is a person safe from arrest inside the Church? Or is it just gambling that we won't go for the bad press of arresting some one inside of it? Have there been cases like this before, where churches have sheltered lawbreakers? (And I mean in this country - I do know the historical precedent of sanctuary.)

Thanks,

R. Garrett

after I made my post above. It seems to me that sanctuary laws are only recently being passed at a local and state level to allow illegal immigrants to interact with agents of the state (cops, etc) without being questioned as to their legal status. The idea that you can take sanctuary in a church to avoid persecution is a social, not legal, one. The law can reach inside and get you; the balancing act on the cops' end regards the bad press.

Hey, I'm an athesit, but I'll take all the help I can get in supporting heroes who refuse to fight in this illegal war.

Good job, guys! :applause:

Recommended....

"We establish no religion in this country, we command no worship, we mandate no belief, nor will we ever. Church and state are, and must remain, separate. All are free to believe or not believe, all are free to practice a faith or not, and those who believe are free, and should be free, to speak of and act on their belief. At the same time that our Constitution prohibits state establishment of religion, it protects the free exercise of all religions. And walking this fine line requires government to be strictly neutral."
—Ronald Reagan