Whole Foods Bans Sale of Live Lobsters (and Crabs as Inhumane)

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2006/06/15/financial/f165548D47.DTL

Customers craving fresh crustaceans will have to look beyond Whole Foods Market Inc. after the natural-foods grocery chain decided Thursday to stop selling live lobsters and crabs on the grounds that it's inhumane.

The Austin-based grocer spent seven months studying the sale of live lobsters from ship to supermarket aisle, trying to determine whether the creatures suffer along the way.

In some stores, they experimented with "lobster condos," filling tanks with stacks of large pipes the critters can crawl inside. And they moved the tanks behind seafood counters and away from children's tapping fingers.

Ultimately, Whole Foods management decided to immediately stop selling live lobsters and soft-shell crabs, saying they could not ensure the creatures are treated with respect and compassion.

"We place as much emphasis on the importance of humane treatment and quality of life for all animals as we do on the expectations for quality and flavor," John Mackey, Whole Foods' co-founder and chief executive, said in a statement.

Based in science and compassion. Well done.

think the chickens,and lamb,and beef come from?

Those animals were alive once also.

Hypocrites.

than the alternative.

Wrong person to try this one with.

and treating them inhumanely. They don't need to be tortured before they are killed. I understand if you are a vegan or vegetarian because of this, but I'm not apologizing for eating meat. However, I do think animals -- including seafood -- should be treated in a respectful manner. That's why I eat organic meat... even if the price can be hair-raising.

but the meat sure is good! I buy all of my meat at Whole Foods. There is no other source in my area that compares to the quality of what I get there.

as i like to constantly remind my vegetarian/vegan friends, plants are also living things.

tubers and lobsters have a lot in common, they both get cooked alive!

Sticks and stones won't feed my bones so give me a medium rare porterhouse.

:hide:

and keep on contributing the your own destruction

If the argument is, don't kill animals for food because of the suffering, animals can be killed painlessly. (They aren't, but it's possible.)

If the argument is that it's taking a life, veggies are also alive, and thus the argument is hypocritical.

I'm all for eliminating cruelty, though.

Jains have been doing it for awhile. They just eat things which do not kill the organism when you harvest the food.

I'm not sure on the specifics, but I'm just saying.

due to requirements of large amounts of personal space to grow your own orchards (other orchards cannot be trusted to be non-violent enough), and outrageous amounts of servants. the most restrictive wear protective masks to keep micro-organisms alive, eat only the fruit that is so ripe it falls from the tree -- yet doesn't yet hit the ground (because once it did it is the food for the ground organisms, and taking that deprives them of sustenance, and thus is violence), and have servants carry them everywhere so that their feet does not crush any living thing.

it is nigh-technically impossible now for life to live without taking life in some measure. it is the nature of earth, a crowded planet for billions of years now. and to say that animals, who are not designed like certain bacteria or plants which take nutrients from mere inanimate elements, but are designed to respirate by the consumption of another living source, is wholly amusing. the absolute best that can be done by animals is parasitism, actually symbiosis (a mutually beneficial form of parasitism) to be specific. so i guess we can say liver flukes and fleas are more evolved than we are (even though they are nowhere near the evolved state of our own intestinal e. coli), in some strange way -- even though this speaks of nothing about the transmission of other opportunistic parasites and disease that often travel with them, let alone other imbalances that can occur with parasites...

so needless to say this sort of extravagance results in more death than intended. due to the huge personal orchards dedicated to their nurishment throughout the year a huge amount of space is needed to accomodate 1 person's specialized diet. also, the required servants (who aren't held to the same standards -- because they aren't holy enough, and believed will be lucky to reincarnate into humans, though most likely some sort of mongrel) necessitate to care for 1 human requires huge amounts of needless waste and death in their wake. atop this there's the hypocrisy of donut bushels around trees to collect enough fruit so these elites will have enough food. and then there's the issue of how they harvest rice, which is almost never like it is harvested by the American Indians, particularly those of Minnesota region (where it is gently threshed from the living plants in the marshlands via canoes sailing between them, disturbing incredibly little -- compared to the ravages of irrigation, mono-culture systems, weeding, and eventual wholesale destruction of the fabricated environment at the time of harvest).

but this is the most extreme version. usually commoner Jains diets consist of a lot of rice, fruits, and the occasional spice, taken from the seed pods, never from the ground. ginger, garlic, onions, etc cannot be used because it kills the plant. interestingly enough, traditional Buddhism doesn't like these pungent bulb spices either, due to being too intense, clouding the mind, and dragging one into greater attachment of this materialistic, desire driven world, thus hampering enlightenment. funny, two ways to approach the same prohibition.

oh, and like the Buddhists (check the wars of the Silk Road -- just for a start), Hindus (check the expansion into SE asia and Indonesia island chain), Muslims, Christians, etc. Jains also had expansionary wars of conversion, subjugation of foreign peoples, assassinations, and other sorts of unpleasant history. but they couch it in non-violence, and westerners aren't familiar with their history, so it must be good, right? ;) so i try to take these things in stride and follow my own mixed maxim: no one's innocent, no one is above reproach; death comes to all that lives, be at peace with it; be not excessively selfish and self-preserving; and love the least among you, for tomorrow you are next. your inner "monster" isn't all *that* bad, y'know -- and your inner "saint" seriously can't cope with much of life's complex grey area. :7

Death is something that happens. Without death, birth would not be possible. The real objective is to find our niche, or to find the way which is least harmful and least cruel. Therefore, eating plants is acceptable, as most animals eat plants and plants provide a key role in the cycle of nutrients and energy (they provide, animals eat them, animals die and plants use those nutrients). I could go on, but you get my point. That's just my view.

I have a few things to add on your last paragraph.

Buddhism has seen a mix of pacifism and self-defense. Why did Buddhism disappear from India? Because the Mughals murdered all the priests. Buddhists did not take up the sword significantly. However, in Japan and China, Buddhist monks were known and feared for their skills in war (the Ikko-Ikki of Japan demonstrate this, as well as the Shaolin of China).

Hindus have never claimed to be 100% pacifist. The entire kyshatria caste is meant for warfare. The RSS even trains their members in non-peaceful techniques. Hindus have always been able to fight to a certain degree, although it took them awhile for them to get their act together against the Mughals.

Muslims and Christians are the most aggressive of all. Christians have no qualms about telling people their religion is "false". They are worse than con-men. Muslims spread Islam in many ways, but their use of steel is not to be understated. India is but one scene of this.

Of course Jains may have done bad things in the past, but this doesn't negate their consistent efforts of pacifism. It would be conceited to claim that anyone is "innocent", but the fact is that most people are good, and everyone has the potential to be good. That is what is important, trying to be perfect is unrealistic, detrimental and pompous. If people would rather eat things which do not kill the plant, that is fine; if people would rather eat only vegetables, that is fine; if people would rather eat animals but ensure their humane slaughter, that is not bad at all. Again, just my view.

but the reality is never so, including (actually, especially -- which is surprising to some) Buddhism.

the Uighur empire, the Tibetan Empire, and the Chinese empire (during the Tang dynasty) were all Buddhist. China was a mix of state sponsored Confucianism (not a religion, btw, and perhaps the oldest secular humanist tradition mankind has), religious Taoism (not the actually interesting philosophical kind), and Buddhism at this time (later Buddhism's religious institutions did some really bad things so that during the Song dynasty, IIRC, they were disbanded from state sponsorship, sent back into lay life, and if they refused to stop hunted down and forcefully stopped. you'll be surprised the evil and sordid history of Buddhism, in China alone!). Uighur and Tibet were empires, Buddhism sponsoring empires. the small nations and kingdoms around them were often also Buddhist, but also were Manichean, Zoroaster, Pagan, Shamanistic, etc. these the Uighur and Tibet empires conquered wholesale, and quite often in the name of Buddhism. wars of choice, for expansion of empire, is impossible to claim as self-defense. we can try to couch it into more palatable terms, but it's probably best to be honest with the bad behavior, just as we try to be with Christianity and Islam.

then there's the fun of SE Asia history w/ Buddhism. the empires of Angkor, Siam, Annam, etc. are a great place to start. one only becomes an empire by conquest of smaller kingdoms, and they weren't all diplo-annexed, i can assure you that. ;) and then there's the Hindu and Buddhist clashes around Malasia and Indonesia way back in the day (both taking turn as aggressors). to think that even the Manicheans at one point were a major religious power and even some states state religion, doing all that religions normally do, is rather amusing (well, amusing if you know something about Manicheaism and find their beliefs... giggle inducing). that said, i'm not hostile to religion, i believe it can do a lot of good. unfortunately it's also a source of abusable power, so great evil can be done with it as well.

yeah, i'm a live and let live person myself, so i totally get where you're coming from. Self-Righteousness is a very dangerous place to work from. from a medieval perspective it shows the evils of Pride (Superiority complex) and how insidious it can be. Humility is a lost virtue it seems nowadays, but it helps keep a level head to learn from your mistakes and gives you the moments pause needed to make the most beneficial choice. to give life an honest try for the good is what matters more, i agree. wish people would put away their mirror and look into their fellow man's heart as deep.

"They just eat things which do not kill the organism when you harvest the food."

Can you type that again so I can understand you? Sounds interesting.

there are many plants which can be "harvested" without being killed. Potatos, for example, are killed when the potato is taken for food because it is rooted (or something). Other plants which are not rooted (or something) do not die when the food is taken. So it's kind of veganism to the X-treme. Jains, a religious group from India, are known to do this as they try their hardest not to take life.

I just dug up this info:

"As a result of this the Jain diet consists of grains like wheat, rice, lentils or pulses and beans, oil-seeds are recommended as they fall under the category of non-injurious food. They are yielded only when their plants get dried of their own after their age ends. Fruits and vegetables that become ripe on the plants or branches of trees or those that fall on their own after becoming ripe, are used for food.

Jains are strict vegetarians and many also avoid root vegetables as it is violent to plants. They also avoid any liquor so they can live a mindful life."
http://www.indianfoodsco.com/Classes/JainInfluence.htm

There's some more info here:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=jain+diet&btnG=Google+Search

I hope that helps.

Thanks for the info, very interesting.

There's a very interesting (to me, at least) approach to "humane" slaughterhouse procesdures. It was done by an autistic woman whose early experiences with hyper-stimulation and her "thinking in pictures" form of cognition enabled her to understand how the cattle would respond to various types of design. See Dr. Temple Grandin's Web Page at: http://www.grandin.com/

it's treat the animals humanely until we kill them for food.

I told my good vegetarian friend that her broccoli couldn't
run away. She nearly choked laughing.

"Those who are against Fascism without being against capitalism, who lament over the barbarism
that comes out of barbarism, are like people who wish to eat their veal without slaughtering the calf.
They are willing to eat the calf, but they dislike the sight of blood. They are easily satisfied if the butcher
washes his hands before weighing the meat. They are not against the property relations which engender
barbarism; they are only against barbarism itself. They raise their voices against barbarism, and they
do so in countries where precisely the same property relations prevail, but where the butchers wash
their hands before weighing the meat."

From "Writing the Truth" Five Difficulties.


Brecht was anything but a vegetarian, and neither am I... I'm more than convinced that our homo sapiens is a meat eater by the position of our eyes in comparison with every other predatory species and the species they prey upon. But I think his point is valid. Aren't we in denial about a lot of things? Whole Foods... come on!

I'm confused. It's ok to kill animals "out of sight" but not in plain view?

We all kill things to eat; it's part of life. Why not be up front about it instead of pretending that boiling a lobster is somehow "more" of a killing than eating roast beef or broccoli?

difference between killing a cow and "killing" a broccoli plant?

Animals aren't "more" alive than plants

You honestly think pulling a carrot out of the ground is equal to slaughtering a cow with a chain saw?

Wow.

Plants react in largely the same ways animals do to harmful stimuli. If you choose not to call that "pain", so be it.

and a processing unit in the brain to interpret it. Any animal higher than a fish has these things; any animal lower than a fish does not.

Lobsters do not have pain fibers, and their brain is not a brain at all, but a neuorohemal unit (a hormone factory). Most higher functions in any crustacean are handled by ganglia.

I find all of this discussion of lower animals' "suffering" to be silly and anthropomorphic. There is no proof that a lobster "suffers"....only that it can experience stress.

If Whole Foods wants to do this, fine, but their explanation should be more science-driven and less squishy and touchy-feely.

The least we can do is minimize that.

But I sure love lobster tail and crab legs. It's a dilemma.

I honestly can't understand people who happily eat animals and then act shocked over the killing process. When they're out of the water, they sort of go into a sedated state anyway. I suspect this has more to do with it being a high maintenance product in the stores than any sort of giving a shit about the lobster and crab.

I doubt it's because the lobsters are a high maintenance product. The customers are way more high maintenance than the lobsters.

don't really care about the welfare of the animals. They shop there because they can get more gourmet items. I can picture a decent amount of their customer base being unhappy about this.

So the only possible reason a sensible business would stop selling them would be because they aren't worth the trouble. If they're worried about animals, they wouldn't sell any meat at all.

Actually, Whole Foods has pretty strict animal husbandry requirements. They care way more about animal rights than most food chains. I think the reason they're banning the sale of live ones is they don't know what will happen to the lobster upon leaving the store. They can't ensure that the animal is quickly killed. An idiot might leave it to languish in the bag etc.

There are ways to sell animal products and do it in a relatively ethical manner. You won't find factory farmed crap at Whole Foods.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

:eyes:

Thanks. Now I've found the root of it all.

I call the local Whole Foods "the princess store" because so many of the customers act like royalty.

be cleaner and more economical than most other grocery stores in Manhattan, but you are right about the "royalty" thing, as in most of the customers are generally a royal pain in the ass.

It's funny, but I find that some of the rudest customers ("get out of my way, don't you know who I am?") can be found in Health Food stores. I don't know what it is, maybe it's that people who are so uptight about what they eat are just more miserable than the average shopper.

Of course, the part that I like is that they will cut fish, meat, and the like to the size I want rather than having the prewrapped packages at the local store.

I roll my eyes a lot, but I view it as performance art.:D

except the actors rarely know they're there to entertain, so their performances are so much more convincing! ;)

(ooh, hey look! a sentence using all three famous "they're, there, and their" homophones! wow, i so didn't plan that. i totally want a double-plus-good mark for this!)
:7

than Whole Foods. Some of the customers were really awesome. The rest were craptacularly spoiled brats.

It is one thing to argue whether killing and eating animals is morally justifiable, and that argument may never be settled, but it is quite another thing to argue that animals be treated humanely and with respect up until their slaughter, and I don't see how anyone could argue against that.

If we had one of those stores in my neck of the woods, it would be the only grocerey store to get my business.

Thank you, Whole Foods.

...for some of us the prospect of doing all of our grocery shopping at Whole Foods is financially not feasable.

Owsley

at least 10X.

:)

They are actually for the huge majority of regular things. Only meat (excluding fish) is more expensive.

of drift off, like people do when when they freeze to death...

Seems to me that'd be better than plopping the sucker into a pot of boiling water. Though I don't have a dog in this fight; I'm hideously allergic to shellfish. Not that I'd eat the damn things if I could; lobsters and (especially) shrimp look an awful lot like big ol' BUGS to me.

(I'd eat bugs if I had to, but I'd have to be goddamn hungry.)

Redstone

He claims it numbs them so they don't know they're being cooked; he's been cooking professionally for more than 60 years, so I don't know if that is an old chef's tale, or if there's anything to it...

Redstone

is to be boiled alive.

Though, through observation, they don't seem to enjoy it all that much.

Redstone

I just couldn't make myself kill lobsters.

Once, I took my two young kids, about seven and eight years old, to a Japanese restaurant. The three of us sat at the sushi bar. We ordered some tempura, while another family ordered lobster.

The chef simply began to CUT UP THE GREEN LOBSTER WHILE IT WAS ALIVE. Within minutes, my kids were bawling and wanted to leave. So we left.

now I want to call and ask him about it... Maybe he was just telling me a tale to soften the blow (I was pretty young when he said this, and I'm sure I was upset about the boiling water on the stove).

When we visited my family in the northeast they'd throw a huge party with tons of live lobsters. They kept them in the refrigerator until they boiled them. My uncle showed me how to rub their tail and put them to sleep, or at least in some hypnotic state. Once they were "asleep" I could balance them on their claws as though they were doing a hand-stand.

Lobster is quite possibly my very favorite food. And steamed clams.....mmmmmm mmmm. You can't get steamed clams in the midwest, at least not the big ones. The best you can get around here is quarter sized puny little things at fancy seafood restaraunts.

what really happens is, lobsters have a hydraulic-type circulatory system (no veins) so tipping them upside down just makes them lose consciousness

pain is transmitted intrsegmentally. In order to affect the entire nervous system, he would have to rub all over. As if "rubbing" a spot numbs anything.

"freeze to death" regardless of drifting off...we had our outrage over folks doing the same.

I do understand what you're saying, though. Probably better than dropping same into a pot of boiling water.

Seems akin to torture to me.

It can make you sick.

eating crustaceans dead like that can make you sick.

The best way would be to freeze them alive and sell them to you, or sell them on ice. They become dormant when they are iced or frozen.

People who keep kosher don't eat lobsters because they are bottom feeders. They same principle applies to bird of prey, you are what you eat. But an orthodox rabbi once told me that no one should eat lobsters since they have to be cooked alive and that they suffer in the process.

A little off topic: I was once watching Emeril and he was boiling lobsters. He lifted the lid and told them to shut up!

very overrated taste wise IMHO -- dip anything in that much butter and it will be good.

And I can't handle the screams (or Emeril).

damn good tasting protein, esp with melted butter and garlic!

I just can't get real worked up about potential cruelty to lobsters.

I'm afraid I'm filing this under "scraping the bottom of the barrel of things to worry about."

And i'm usually fairly sympathetic to the animal rights folks' ethos, although I'm still an omnivore.

The Insecta (insects) are a Class of the large animal Phylum called ARTHROPODA (arthropods) - a name that refers to the jointed limbs. The other major Classes of living arthropods (i.e. animals related to insects) include the Crustacea (crabs, lobsters, shrimps, barnacles, woodlice, etc.),

Tasty, though!

Not that WF wasn't concerned about the humanitarian aspect.

The lobster and crab just didn't sell well to their demographic.

one that would appeal to part of their base. I shop at Whole Foods because there is little choice for the variety of organic and high quality food but I have no illusion that they're warm and fuzzy.

Lobster tanks in supermarkets are disgusting. The habitat is too small, too exposed, and the lobsters are just slowly dying in their own detritus. It's interesting that Whole Foods tried out pipe condos. That's the way some marine biologists set up observation tanks because lobsters like cramped hiding holes and spend much of their days that way.

that it wasn't about sales?

My theory is some focus group voted "more likely to buy" lobsters if they were lovingly contained in oubliettes, but the reality of evicting perceived pets from their dee-lux apartments made the not-focus-grouped children cry.

I think that they were willing to lose a little bit of income now in order to enhance their public image and raise their public profile. Right now across the country people are all thinking to themselves "I wonder where the nearest whole foods is and checking the company's website."

Red Lobster is the McDonald's of seafood. Gross. Of course, I'm fortunate to live in a place where I can go to real seafood restaurants. Give me the Pub 199 over Red Lobster anytime.

I really do like WF a lot, but I'm practicing for what I hope will be my new career:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1438787#1439072

:toast: :toast: :toast:

Not because I'm heartless, but because I don't believe they have the brainpower to feel fear, or worry or even physical discomfort. I guesss I don't know for sure though and may be way off base.

one of the most basic purposes of which is to feel pain.

If one doesn't eat meat, then fine. But no animal dies without pain. It's actually better that humans remember that instead of blocking the reality of pain out of our existence.

Nor do I block the reality of pain out of my existence.

so it cannot feel any pain.

Plants recoil from harmful sensations. Plants show similar electical stress to harm as animals. Plants even show stress when neighboring plants are harmed. These reactions are even dulled aspirin, just like in animals. Google "plants feel pain" some time and just keep an open mind.

Plants are beautiful and marvelously complex organisms, and just because we don't hear the screams doesn't mean they aren't there.

the next time I haven't cut my grass and the association stops by to warn me to keep the appearance up. I will just tell them I can't get over the screaming of the grass in pain...

And that continues to be the single silliest argument against vegetarianism (and compassion).

:eyes:

if you're being boiled alive. If you have a basal ganglia instead of a brain, you're probably not even going to realize you're in...er...hot water.

Whether a slaughtered animal doesn't feel the pain or does, it's still ridiculous to me that people will purchase meat in a package as if the same slaughtering process doesn't apply. And I guarantee any vegetarian here would boil a lobster live if they were hungry enough. It is in our best interest to remember we depend on all these animals for our own survival.

We don't "depend on all these animals for our own survival." We have emerged from living as nomads and tribes and killing everything and one another. Now we are responsible for the planet and must do everything in our power to preserve it and its biosphere.

We can choose to eat lower on the food chain because there are too many people that need to eat and feeding them all animals is destroying the environment and depleting stocks of species. And as the planet's condition degrades more and more, it becomes less of a choice, and more of an obligation.

Whether humans eat them or not. A planet with no animal life is not a planet where humans are going to be able to grow enough to feed themselves anyway. Animals are too important to a healthy environment, from carrying seeds and pollen to their rotting carcases enriching the soil. They're necessary for human survival. And again, if you get hungry enough, you'll eat an animal. You know what happens when people forget that they're part of the food chain? They don't care what happens to animals at all because they think they don't need them. And the animals die. And the planet dies. I think putting animals over people is as stupid as putting people over animals.

It is not because we are better than or worse than other animals, whatever that would mean, or above or below (or side-by-side). It is because of who we are and what we have done.

Our environment no longer controls us, as you point out, we are no longer part of the food chain. Nothing preys upon humans. We control the environment.

And since we control that environment, we have the obligation to preserve it as much as possible. This is self-evident.

If we don't preserve the planet, we will become part of the food chain again which is why we shouldn't forget that that is man's natural state. That's why I support the Makah being allowed to have an annual hunt, we all need to remember who we are so we have more respect for animal life, the environment and our dependency.

pain is actually a higher function of a central nervous system. It is handled by th cerebral cortex. What you are talking about it a net of ganglia with two large ganglia in the head that are used for hormonal purposes. Lobsters do not have the type of nerves that feel pain, nor do they have the processing unit for it.

This whole thread is one big exercise in teleology, a logical fallacy.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that final causes exist or that lobsters are moving inexorably toward some "higher" state of self-realization. (I can't believe I even typed that! :rofl: It's straight out of one of the "In Search Of" programs from the 70s!)

Are you suggesting a tautology, then? I'm not sure that that's what you mean, as I don't see it here.

The discussion, at its core, isn't really about whether or how lobsters feel; that cannot be definitively decided, because (as you stated above) we aren't lobsters and don't have the same toolbox with which to experience the world.

I think it is valid to argue that taking animals out of their environment and placing them in an unhospitable, unhygenic, and unfamiliar environment could be seen as cruel, and retailers should be free to make what they see as an ethical choice.

I won't try to convince you, as what I say might be convoluted.

What you believe to be, and what is, might well be different.

consideration as the crustaceans.

Whole Foods: Walmart for the organic set.

Think I'm kidding? Do the homework.

I'm doing the homework...

http://www.wholeworkersunite.org/

Whole Foods Workers Unite!
Welcome to the only web site operated by and for Whole Foods workers committed to improving the working conditions for all of us.

*This site is NOT run by or connected to Whole Foods Market. Rather, we are here to counter Whole Foods' attempts at misinforming its workers about what it means to unionize. Our goal is to provide news, information, and resources for everyone concerned about workers' rights.

Many people love the community at Whole Foods – this is what brought us to work here in the first place. But many of us have also seen that as the company has grown, the focus has shifted to profits and expansion at the expense of worker respect and fair compensation.

Despite what Whole Foods says, unionizing is the only way for workers to be guaranteed participation in their employment.

And despite what the company says, unionizing is about making Whole Foods a better place to work, a place in which people enjoy working, are invested in their jobs, have a say in their workplace conditions, and are rewarded and appreciated for the work they do. It's about holding the company accountable for their claims and promises.

MORE AT LINK above >>>>>>

I was hoping Whole Foods would join the Canadian (seal) seafood boycott though.

Talking about humane conditions means nothing but bullshit when it applies only to lobsters and not to employees. What a cynical, pathetic ploy -- and lots of people here are falling for it, I see. Very sad.

:eyes:

anyway.

I was there twice this week, and finally decided to buy some steaks as a thank you/cookout to a couple friends that have helped us take care of our cats while on vacay, and helped do some yard work. $22/lb :cry: I'm cooking them on saturday, they had better be the best steaks ever.

I do love whole foods however, and was thrilled to find out that they'll have one closer to me in the next 2-3 years. Right now I only go when my son sees the dr (at least 1xmo) because it's 45 min from my house - and they share rear lots. Any other time, it's just too much gas money, too much pollution to make it over there.

they are supposed to represent a certain amount of progressive practices but this was definitely not one of them

cold water. She boiled them w/ lemon after they had been in there for an hour or so. They were quite tasty and extremely tender. I have not had better lobster.... perhaps the same result could be accomplished w/ other drugs - but these tasted soooo perfect.

She was also getting them an hour or two off the boat.

The transport really is the issue.

It's like those poor little gusanos pickled in a bottle of Mezcal. By the time they made it to your mouth, I'm sure they were feeling no pain at all. :evilgrin:

They're delicious! Enjoying eating them is one of the great parts of being human!

he's talking about fried chicken, and his vegetarian friends ask him "don't you know what they do to those poor chickens?"

"nope, but it's delicious"

It's getting so that you have to hunt around for organic food there. Back when Whole Foods was still Fresh Fields it was the opposite; there would be a few non-organic products that would be pretty boldly labelled as such.

Unfortunately this "corporate organic" thing is eviscerating a lot of the good parts of organic food...

Anthropomorhic guilt? You think maybe they talk like Charley the Tuna?

I'm hard pressed to see how lobsters could possibly perceive pain the way we do. I'm not even sure that calling it pain is proper terminology. When your brain is this big, at best you have avoidance reflexes. They just don't have the equipment to perceive pain.

"Pain is pain."

No, it's not. Pain is about perception, something which lobsters certainly don't have. As I said above, at best lobsters have an avoidance reflex but they certainly don't interpret the sensation as pain. There's a certain point at which brains stop being brains and become simply command and control centers and lobsters' brains barely even qualify for that.

You can take an ethical stance that it is wrong to kill any animal except in self-defense. I can respect that. But if you need to resort to junk science to argue your case like that site does then don't be surprised when people don't take you seriously.

And this page is just laughable: http://lobsterlib.com/dangerous.html

BTW: The lobster's nervous system is a favorite for neuroscientists to study. That lobsterlib site should be complaining about vivisection on lobsters as well to be consistent.

And lobsterlib.com? ROFLMAO!

lets get some facts from people that have actual degrees and have studied and worked with lobsters for years.

a couple of places to go to would be...

http://octopus.gma.org/

http://www.maine.gov/dmr/rm/lobster/lobster_info.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobster

- I learned this the hard way many years ago, when my dog severely cut himself all way through the tendon on his leg near his foot. Bleeding, unable to lift the foot as the tendon was cut, we rushed him to the vet. Yet the dog showed absolutely no pain, which puzzled me.

I asked the vet about it and the vet explained that the nervous systems of animals are very different than humans and that they do not experience or perceive pain as we do. He also stated that this was nature's defense mechanism as animals in the wild would not be able to exist if they perceived pain as humans do because of the number and types of injuries that they often sustain in hunting prey, mating, etc.

To attempt to equate human pain to any animal, crustacean, or fish is sheer nonsense.

we want so much to think of other animal as being human-like that we attribute to them characteristics they do not have.

As an entomologist, I can assure anyone here that a lobster being boiled alive will not feel it like a human would. They just do not have the equipment for it.

they live in denial and these ideas challenge what they have decided to be absolute.

This is so interesting--
thanks-
http://www.lobsterlib.com/questions.html#givenlobster


I feel the lobsters begging to be released when I see them in the aquariums-
they seem sensitive -just my imagination?
maybe- maybe not-

it's not worth it- for a few bites of sensory taste fulfuilment to inflict such cruelty on a creature

if you don't know anything abt food, don't call yourself "whole foods" then

lobster and crab is just not the same if it is not cooked live

for the prices they charge they should be ashamed not to sell food at its peak and for lobster and crab it does mean the food must go home live

i'll admit when i first moved to new orleans and bought my first soft shell crabs i was a little startled when they started crawling around -- but it was all worth it when i deep fried the results

oh yes! there is NO food like FRESH food

boiling a live lobster is really pretty kind and humane compared to how almost all other animals consume their prey. I'd rather be a lobster boiled alive than a hyena ripped open alive by a tiger or a mouse eaten whole alive by a snake.

I have owned boa constrictors. The snake suffocates the mouse first and then eats it.

If there were boa constrictors in my house I'd be scared they'd try to eat me alive. I could just never enjoy a pet that would like to squish me.

I guess suffocation is a little better way to go. But I was almost certain I'd seen on TV other types of snakes eating frogs or mice whole and alive.

They're way too small. Now an reticulated python on the other hand...

I love snakes. I miss my little ball python. He was so cute the time he slept on the cat.

I would love to see a picture of that if you have one.

It was hilarious though. Midnight was sleeping on the couch and I just put the snake on her. The snake curled up and stayed there. The cat was warm. Midnight just looked over and went back to sleep. She's only a mean cat with other cats and dogs. She ignores the rabbits and she ignored the birds I used to have. Yes, I somewhere have a picture of her with two parakeets on her back. If I ever get around to scanning it, I'll post it.

Laid back. I had to stop letting my cat out because he was such an avid and eager hunter, he never showed up back home without another mammal, bird, or reptile hanging out of it's mouth, half dead.

Once he brought me a snake. Come to think of it, that was the only animal that ultimately survived because it was the only one smart enough to play dead so the cat lost interest. When he brought it home we thought it was dead, my husband tossed it out in the grass and it slithered away unhurt.

I'm the only person in the house that can "fuck" with her. Actually, she'll let me do all sorts of crazy stuff to her. Most people are smart enough to look and maybe pet her, but that's it. If they do anything else, well they're going to pay...big time. Despite being old and nearly toothless, she used to take on our CRAZY German Shepherd and win, has backed the lab into the closet and not let him out numerous times, and has instilled an intense fear of cats into the Pitbull foster I had for a week. He ran at her, she sat down and stared. He stopped, then got closer. She hissed, stood up, clawed his face, and sat back down; effectively sending the pit bull running in the opposite direction. Yep, they're a killer breed.

lobster and crab is just not the same if it is not cooked live

Ummm... it's more accurate to say "lobster and crab will probably kill you if they aren't cooked live".

Or come damn close.

Strange statement (not yours -- the one you're answering) -- Whole Foods isn't selling dead lobsters and crabs... only ones already processed (lobster ravioli, crabmeat, etc.). How does this mean WH doesn't understand food? To me, it shows they absolutely do.

i won't eat a frozen lobster or crab either but sadly the existence of chain restaurants and nasty frozen food items prepared w. pre-processed lobster/crab proves that the frozen food won't kill you

maybe it just kills your taste buds?

But yeah -- frozen lobster or crab? EWWWW.

You rarely find places where they have live chickens. But storebought chicken compared to fresh is like night and day. :9

Guess you gotta draw the line somewhere. :shrug:

i agree that a freshly slaughtered chicken has no peer, but the effort involved in slaughtering and removing all those darn feathers means that you would hardly ever have the time to prepare and eat chicken if you only ate chickens you bought alive

so, yeah, you do draw a line, but the effort in preparing a live crab is so small compared to the effort compared in preparing a live chicken that i think the line is drawn for reasons of convenience and the fact that we just don't have the time to pluck an entire chicken before frying it these days

we could try agitating for a 20 hour work week but, alas, the world is going the other way

chickens are still worth the keeping if they are allowed in your community, because the yard egg is soooo far above the taste of the store bought egg, oddly i think it's the live insects they grub for that gives 'em that deeper taste

What about them? Think of them. And oysters? What did they think about the treatment they got from the Walrus and the Carpenter?

I guess. :P

Maybe that's why eating carrots isn't inhumane. You kill the plant to get to the carrot, but since it doesn't move it's not inhumane.

All I know, is I like almost all kinds of food. Feed me!

:popcorn:

this last year. I still wonder if I'm doing much good giving my kids organic milk because of that offensive legislation.

The other companies are still okay.

I believe it has everything to do with cost.

I have several friends that work at the two whole foods here in Austin and they tell me all the time how the corporate management structure has changed dramatically over the past 2 years.

Did you know that whole foods has been hiring ex-china-mart management? And as a result that once happy hippy place that was actually really cool to shop at once upon a time is now in full competition with china-mart?

Also did you know that that china-mart has plans to control up to 80% of the organic food production and sale in this country?

So as a result whole foods has had to cut corners and put the spin on things.

Case in point; Why did they stop selling the lobsters? Oh it's inhumane they will cry, but actually it costs them a fortune in transportation costs to bring in the live lobsters each week. As the price of fuel goes up so does the price of the lobsters (they were already outrageously priced to begin with) This was a cost cutting measure with a happy face on it.

Chicken or the egg? Did they want to save costs or help the lobsters? Bank on the fact that it was to cut costs then re-spin it as something that is humane. It's a win win situation for them. Save money and good PR.

At the end of the day, Whole Foods is a corporation that doesn't allow unions in their store and go out of their way to union bust and spread disinformation to their employees about joining unions.

Say what you want about whole foods good or bad, but the are now a bloated huge corporation that has less to do with what their shoppers want and more about what they want. This is the same face that American corps have had for decades, it's just packaged differently.

Agree and Agree!

Were you a party to the discussions where the decision was made? Or do you have some secret 'insider' info? Or are you just talking out of your ass and making up stories to please your ego?

I respect them enormously for this decision. :toast:

there in dumbf**kistan/jesusland.

putting them head first in the boiling water.... you can hear them scream...

this has never been proven as to whether it's the lobster itself or whether it's steam escaping from the shell. To Boot, you have to have a stethescope to hear it, and if you are hearing it with out a stethescope, it's only steam.


If anyone has a problem with the way lobsters are cooked (boiling is not the only method btw, but the most "humane")then you should have a problem with the way most any animal is slaughtered for human consumption, and become at the very least a vegetarian.

I have heard them move for a few seconds after they are put in the pan but that's usually because the pan wasn't big enough to keep the heat after the bugs went in. But what do I know, I'm from Maine too.

;-)

:)

Here's another native who's never heard lobsters make any sort of noise. We've always put them in head first. I've heard of people who cut some nerve first but I've never seen it done.

I was told by the fisherman I bought them from that they don't know what's happening if you put them in cold water and gradually bring them to the boil. So that's what I did, and they struggled and fought to get out of there, all the while screaming in high pitched squeals. It was heartbreaking, and I would NEVER do it again. I'm a meat eater, but I've no wish to torture the animal before I eat it.

These days I still buy lobsters live, but I wrap bags of frozen peas around them and put then in the back of my freezer for 15 minutes before boiling them. That kills them fast and I dont have to shove them back into the water with a stick and jam a lid over them and put on earmuffs to drown out agonised squeals.

Done this way, they taste more tender and sweet, and are not full of panic hormones.

I couldn't.

steam escaping from the shell.

Also, if you want to cook them in a "humane" way, never, never, put them in cold water and then bring to a boil. Always use boiling water, and then put them in. The die quicker that way. You can also balance them on their heads and claws and rub their bellies and that sort of "hypnotizes" them, and then put them in the water. Or you could just take a knife and shove it in to their brains just before you boil it.

Noone should care. The democratic party should have no position on it. Every post is a wasted moment we could have spent volunteering for a candidate, earning money to donate, anything but waste a second on this crap.

Break 5 eggs into large, hot frying pan over high heat. Add live lobster and cover. The lobster will scramble the eggs.

Philip K. Dick pointed out in _Do androids dream of electric sheep_ that vegetarians such as myself often can't distinguish between human and animal emotions.

He's right in my case, I don't consider a cat or dog or for that mater even a lobster that screams when it's killed, as less worthy to live than say - you.

I doubt I would be a liberal if all the liberals and dems were like... well... you.

The boiling process causes air to build up inside the shells and the air escapes through small openings causing a soft whistling noise. Many people confuse that with screaming.

I am the Adolph Eichman of lobsters, I worked in a place called the Lobster Shanty, and on "all you can eat lobster night" I had to dump whole bushel baskets of them into enormous 60 gallon steam kettles. There was no screaming.

They sure tasted good, though.

it's like the giant lobster cookers they use up here for the Lobster Festival, if you hear 1 lobster "screaming" out of those cookers, I will promise to never eat another lobster as long as I live.



in 2005, they cooked nearly 12 TONS of lobsters! YUMMY!

http://www.mainelobsterfestival.com/highlights.cfm

:rofl:

That made me think of George Constanza's special eggs that he served to get even with Jerry's girlfriend for spreading rumors about his shrinkage.

Take this thread for what it is - a brief discussion among web progressives about the humanity or inhumanity of forms of animal slaughter. I don't think the DNC will be buying air time regarding this rights of lobsters any time soon.

They're free range lobsters. ;)

?

Because the Democratic Party has taken no stand on lobsters. This is a thread just talking about lobsters. There's a thread talking about soccer too, doesn't mean its a democratic issue. However it does piss me off to be marginalized by my supposed party because in addition to other liberal beliefs I also hapen to be pro animal rights.

Whole Foods is so anti union its not even funny. My dad organizes people and whole food's workers call him because they are scared of the harassment and threats they get from the management if they unionize. They treat animals all nice but when it comes to humans, not so nice.

They have great benefits and protection for GLBT employees... literally THE best in the grocery business. Both that and unions are issues I consider very important. I hate their anti-union tactics, although I do know people who have worked there -- and still do -- and love it: how they are treated, the benefits, the pay, etc. And, they aren't corporate bigshots, either. So... I'm torn.

Their GLBT benefits:

http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Search_the_Database&Template=/CustomSource/WorkNet/srch_dtl.cfm&srchtype=QS&searchid=1&orgid=1456

And the "Buying Equality" pdf:

http://anon.newmediamill.speedera.net/anon.newmediamill/hrc_buyersguide.pdf

My point is, they do offer some excellent benefits, they are progressive towards their gay employees, I do personal;ly know people who work there and like the way they treated.

In my are, I have no unionized grocery stores, no grove ry stores that offer benefits to gay employees. It's kinda hard to raise all my own food. Whole Foods is the absolute best of the bunch.

Instead of fixating on Whole Foods, people need to fixate on service industry employees as a whole... but we don't.

on edit: the story does not disprove the benefits awarded to gay employees. As much as I loathe their anti-union attitude (an attitude the huge majority of ALL retail corps have), I do applaud their benefits to gay employees. Much more progressive companies don't have such benefits.

I was taught that you take a big tall pot, and put rocks or a steamer rack in the bottom. Then you put in enough water to make a really good boil without the water coming over the top of the rocks/steamer rack. You get the water up to a very vigorous rolling boil, and then put the lobster into the pot on top of the rocks/rack. Cover the pot quickly with a tight lid.

The steam is supposed to kill the lobster a lot faster than to just put it into the boiling water.

I don't care for lobster myself ... I've tried it a couple of times ... I prefer crab legs but even then don't eat them very often.

When we 'boiled' lobsters at home it was really steaming. At the pounds they boiled them in vats of sea water.

That's the only kind I eat, and it tastes just as good as the tortured-calf veal.

i always wondered why they never went back to that. well, there's always that issue that spontaneous abortion is not always readily available when you want veal... but don't we have medication to induce labor nowadays? i'd like to try original "aborted cow fetus" veal, it'd probably be very tender.

but i'm not sure.
I know they cry out for their mothers and aren't able to move a muscle because they're tied-

Some of those farmers should sign up for Iraq prison guard duty.

They you rip their lungs out with your fingers. While they are alive.

Yum yum.

Empathy and compassion are so last decade.

Tucker

I really do like that approach--(I'm going to copy that from you and use it in the future--hope you don't mind)
it's a pretty effective method...
people just stick their footz in their mouthz--they can't even reply



:applause:Bravo!!

:eyes:

I prefer live lobster over frozen they just taste alot better. My family owned a meat processing plant my whole life so I've butchered 10,000+ cows pigs sheep we were a small town company and only butchered local farmers animals, as for humane. We treated the animals about as humane as we could with a 22 bullet between the eyes from about 1 inch away death is about as close to instant as you can get. We never electrocuted them or tried to get them angry it was a business. and like most of our customers we butchered 1 cow and 1 pig a year for food the other 300 head or so lived a pretty nice life with plenty of food water and room to roam. I dont feel bad for killing animals for food if people are killing them just to kill I have a problem with that. I like veggies with my meat too but i dont feel bad about killing them either.

*sniff* Pinchy would've wanted it this way. *deep stuttering breath* My dear sweet Pinchy. *eats a large chunk of his now dead pet lobster* No more pain where you are now, boy... *snaps Pinchy in half, sucks out the meat* Oh, god, that's tasty. I wish Pinchy was here to enjoy this...Oh, Pinchy!

anyone who's got a problem with it has a problem with understanding and compassion!
...animals are not items to be used as we see fit
--period--no discussion --end of story



-anyone who doesn't understand or thinks its's "cool" to be callous just makes themselves look lacking in capability to grasp concepts-and should fall into the low IQ category on the human evolutionary scale- Einstein was a vegetarian-speaks for itself***



***and this shit about being hypocritical is ridiculous-
what? someone or some company has to be 100% at something or efforts don't count?
any progress is GOOD progress-
POWER to the PEOPLE who stand up for change !--
they are the only ones who can save this planet and every creature on it!!

fish and crustaceans? Good for Whole Foods. Good for you folks who think that everything and anything should be protected. next you'll fucking tell me corn feels pain. You won't be happy until we're all eating dirt. And then you'll find a way to protect microbes.

When will you stand up for the human race?

I don't want to hear it. I am blanking out this thread, never to read it again.

It means I don't have to bother telling you what i think of you and your...."opinion" on this issue. And you're clearly really, really not worth me getting myself banned over.

I'm not entierely fond of thier business practices and as a result don't make a habit of shopping there, but the idea that a grocery chain has more business fighting the war than changing thier product lineup is a bit unrealistic, don't you think?

http://www.foodonline.com/content/news/article.asp?docid={722A1067-368B-4FFA-B46D-A2A122760579}&VNETCOOKIE=NO

Nice to lobsters but not their human consumers. I don't shop there anymore.

I NEVER EAT LOBSTER

Their slaughter is more inhumane than being boiled alive.

I have pretty much given it up

David Foster Wallace, and you know what -- lobster had been one of my favorite foods, but he -- totally NOT a vegetarian activist of any sort (not that there's anything wrong with that! :) ) just a writer -- made a good argument for the suffering of lobsters where they're tossed into boiling water.

Don't think I'll be partaking of my formerly favorite food this summer.

Killing other species to live is just part of nature, as far as I'm concerned. But torturing them and making their lives and deaths on earth a misery is unconscionable.

a great writer but he was not trying to put you off your ability to eat, he just has that kind of humor

have you read "a supposedly fun thing i'll never do again" -- well, don't if you ever plan to take a cruise, i guess

:-)

for those who have never read it, check it out

http://www.lobsterlib.com/feat/davidwallace/page/lobsterarticle.pdf

i have no clue if mr wallace is asperger's or merely fakes it so well -- and to a certain extent it reminds me of other pieces of his, such as one where i couldn't figure it out if he suffered from severe depression or if he just faked it so well -- but this man is a genuis, no doubt about it

how can you resist a footnote like this -- "preference is maybe roughly synonomous with "interest" but is a better term for our purposes because it's less abstractly philosophical" etc

i'll still eat lobster but not without a nod in the direction of krishna and full appreciation for what the lobster has sacrificed in the way of "preference" and life experience

hey, christ died for our sins, can we ask less of a lobster? There are limits to what even interested persons can ask of each other.

Whole foods charges a shitload compared to other stores, this combined with how lobster is generally expensive already would probably combine into some kind of impoverishing meal from hell. I'll go to the fishmonger's instead.

ummm...so...it's only inhumane if the cook kills the meal themselves...?

why?

The issue that they're taking up isn't a question of the method or agent of slaughter, but with the handling and storage of live animals.

the person who said that whole foods didn't want to be arsed to spend the money to transport and house the live lobsters was correct

they call themselves whole foods but are not willing to do what it takes to get the top quality lobster and crab, even at their exorbitant prices!

heh

knew it all along!

We don't know the basis for their decision. It could be financial, it could be ethical, it could be a combination of factors.