American Indians Confront Bikers

Full story: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20060804/D8J9TGFG0.html

I have friends (including the Vice President of my union local) in Sturgis on both sides of this issue.

American Indians Confront Bikers
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Aug 4, 7:27 PM (ET)

By CARSON WALKER


STURGIS, S.D. (AP) - American Indians protesting development encroaching on sacred Bear Butte peacefully confronted bikers gathering Friday for a raucous annual motorcycle rally.

The Sturgis Motorcycle Rally, scheduled Aug. 7-13, attracted 525,000 bikers last year and commercial development near the mountain has been driven in a large part by the event.

Indians have come to Bear Butte to pray, fast and hold religious ceremonies for centuries, but say noise from the bars, campgrounds and concert venues disrupts the peace.

"People pray on that mountain and they can't pray when there's a bunch of drunks," said Veronica Kills In Water of Denver, a member of the Oglala Lakota tribe on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation.


A biker rides by as protesters hold signs at chant on Main Street Friday, Aug. 4, 2006 in Sturgis, S.D. As motorcyclists begin arriving for the annual Sturgis motorcycle rally, so are American Indians who are protesting biker-related campgrounds, bars and concert venues being built near Bear Butte. Indians want a buffer zone around Bear Butte, which they consider sacred, to protect it from further development and noise and traffic which they say interferes with religious ceremonies. (AP Photo/Doug Dreyer)

A couple hundred protesters carried signs and chanted "Don't ride 79" as they walked up to the Meade County Courthouse. State Highway 79 goes past the butte and the entertainment sites that are closest to it.

Alex White Plume, president of the Oglala Sioux Tribe, said he will continue to seek a 5-mile buffer zone around the western South Dakota butte to prevent more development.

"We will not give up that fight," White Plume told the crowd.

NGU.

Rather than buying it when it was for sale, or buying it now. Yet to see anything that said they had tried or currently want to buy the land.

that they should not have to buy back the land the white man stole from them in the first place. the nerve of these people demanding some sort of recognition as human beings after being kick off their own land and being subjected to a genocidal war! how dare they! Bomb the lacota! Over priced gas guzzling motorcycles for everyone!

bikes don't "guzzle" gas, even the nice ones.

Recreational non-essential use of fossil fuels is increasingly hard to justify, and arguing that other things use more gas doesn't cut it.

The Lakota were there first. Their spiritual needs and their ability to use their land according to their traditions should be precedence over local development. They shouldn't have to buy additional land in order to preserve peace and tranquility on their own space.

Development should be in harmony with existing elements, and that includes the Lakota territory and traditions.

NGU.

and I am wholly on their side, especially being part Cherokee myself, but motorcycles still don't guzzle gas! Motorcycle was my main method of transportation during the 70s gas crisis and we got in for gas when stations were closed to cars since we only needed a gallon or two. Re: of what you said, I do have a problem with drivers of these monstrous SUVs and worse, Hummers.

There is no argument that Sturgis should not be allowed to disturb the Lakota, at least not from me.

reason they have to be as loud as they are. No reason, that is, but the rider's ego.

I do agree that the can muffled to a decent level, however. Ego? Nope, some of us just love em!

Hmm...which to choose, which to choose?

They should move the party further away from the mountain. That has nothing to do with my love for motorcyles.

Obviously, you didn't read my other posts regarding this subject. We sure do have a lot of judgmental souls on DU.

*edited to correct dyslexic spelling*

they drink less booze (doesn't improve ones riding).

Downside: GET A MUFFLER

Bonus Inadvertent Upside: Hysterically funny wannabe costumes.

wearing shorts, tennis shoes or *gasp* sandals to ride a motorcycle. I guarantee one time hitting the pavement will teach 'em to dress right. I broke a foot for lack of protective enough footwear. Boots, jeans, chaps, leather is more like it. Road rash hurts!!

The wannabe costumes!

I know egg-zactly what y'er talkin' about.

Harleys are decent bikes, but they should really try to overcome the "wussy accountant" image they project.

bmw and kawasaki.

You know what would be nice if cities would actually enforce tailpipe decibel regs.

Believe it or not, every time you hear those loud bikes, at least you are aware that they are there. With all the blind spots on vehicles, every little bit counts. It's not an ego thing... it's a "keep yourself alive" thing...

PEACE!

When we almost got slammed by cars a few times infringing on our rights to be on the road, the excuse was they couldn't hear our bike? You can't hear a Harley engine? We'd ask the driver if the DMV was aware that they are really really hard of hearing?! What a stupid excuse for not paying attention to motorcycles on the road. So there is truth to safety of loudness but I think some bikes are overdone for noise and that's not OK either.

I live in a rural area and the road I live on seems to be a biker trail or something, not just one or two but 15-20 at a time, so loud we can't hear ourselves talk.

It has been determined in FEDERAL Court that it is there -- but the Feds won't give it to them... this in included the land all of the mining companies lease from the government, Mount Rushmore, etc. The US Government has broken many, many treaties.... including this one. And, these are real treaties, folks.

So agreed -- wtf should they pay for something they freaking already own???

http://www.bcc.ctc.edu/diversitycaucus/AIFF/CBE.htm#Black%20Hills

They do own it legally, if not actually. They have a 1868 treaty giving them the land for all time and have refused all efforts from the government to buy it from them. Congress seized it from them in 1890 after gold was discovered and the case has been in the courts for years. Can it be that our government can't be trusted to keep their word?

Well, they would if they were still alive, anyway.

I was playing Devil's Advocate with my thread title, of course. But the Lakota sometime in history took it from someone else. But the Lakota don't own it anymore. What's the staute of limitations on land ownership? Do the Israelis have an inviolate right to all of Palestine because Solomon once built a church in Jerusalem?

And on the less argumentative side: what's a five mile boundary, really? We took a hell of a lot more than that from them...

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Are you serious? :yoiks:

I'm sure it was the theme of "The Twilight Zone" buzzing in my head.

around the area. Seems they have been working for a long time to protect this area, but the local officials don't seem interested in working for a win-win resolution here. If memory serves me correctly there's a lot of "nothingness" for miles in all directions of Sturgis. Isn't there of room for such development on the other side of town? Or has Sturgis been developed that much over the past few years?

Mr. White Plume said tribal leaders wanted to preserve a five-mile buffer around Bear Butte. Over the years, tribes have spent more than $1 million to buy about two and a half square miles of land near the butte, but they have not been able to raise enough money to protect the rest.

A link to another post points out that attempts have been made to buy the surrounding land, which was the first I had seen of that happening. I also believe that if that is indeed true (it was in the M$M after all), they should have no problems raising the money needed now to buy out all the land they want. I would gladly contribute it.

While others here choose to rant about how the land was stolen etc, the current legal situation is that, right or wrong, the Lakota do not currently own it in the eyes of the law. That does not make me a neo con, it makes me a pragmatist. If you don't want your neighbor to do something that is a legitimate use of their property, you buy the property from them. Its pretty straight forward. People in the west and outside of major cities tend to be pretty hardcore with regards to property rights. Saying that your neighbor should not be allowed to do something because it offends you is rarely if ever successful. It certainly is not been an effective argument in this case.

There may be a longer term settlement of Indian claims, but for the short term, they need to buy the property if they don't want certain activities on it. Not being policial as much as practical.

your first post blamed the Lakota tribe for NOT buying back their own land already adjudicated in their favor in Federal court because you were to lazy to LOOK IT UP (would have taken all of 2 minutes on google to get an outline of the real situation as opposed to the bigotry you brought to the table). So when you DO finally pay attention and get some actual facts you proceed to damm them with faint priase for doing what you ahve previously accused them of, and then went on to flame other posters for pointing out how uninforned you are.

Humm, go back to freeper-land moran.

I had looked previously, about a week back when postings about this first showed up here. The NYT article was dated yesterday and is the only one so far cited that discusses purchasing surrounding lands. On older threads I asked the same question, with no one reponding.

I suggested a practical approach to the problem. I know that offends the ideologues, but it is a practical approach in the short term that addresses the concerns. Do you have any? Saying that someone should not so something because it would offend a neighbor is not viable public policy.

I've flamed no one and said nothing bigoted. You seem more interested in name calling than finding solutions.

EXCELLENT POST! Welcome!

Bear Butte is part of of the Black Hills, considered sacred by the Lakota from time immemorial. Most of the wars between the United States and the Great Sioux Nation had at least something with Sioux attempts to maintain stewardship over the Black Hills, which was guaranteed by the 1868 Treaty of Fort Laramie... and illegally abrogated by the United States in 1874, when gold was discovered there.

After gold was discovered, the Sioux fought the United States for nearly twenty years to keep the Black Hills pristine, culminating in the breakup of the Sioux Nation, massacre at Wounded Knee and the murder of Sitting Bull. The Oglala Lakota were moved to arguably the least valuable and most difficult terrain in the Dakotas, now the Pine Ridge Reservation. Since that time and without interruption, the Oglala and most of the other Sioux tribes have not relinquished their claim to the Black Hills.

So yeah, the Lakota probably do want Bear Butte back, not for free, but for the considerable price in blood and suffering that has already been paid by every single member of all the Sioux tribes for the past hundred and thirty years since Bear Butte was taken from them. The Oglala Sioux tribe is now so impoverished that even at pennies on the dollar they likely could not afford to purchase their own land back. They might consider such an option insulting, offensive, and possibly illegal.

In typical fashion, the Bush Administration compassionately recognized the suffering of the Sioux by opening up the last untouched forest in the Black Hills to logging and mining. Once it is all destroyed, I'm sure they'll consider giving it back... but they won't.

As far as the Sturgis event goes, I know for a fact that the Sioux have a range of opinions on it. I have a Sturgis T-shirt given to me by friend Paul, who occasionally serves as an Oglala tribal council member. Our mutual friend Frank, also a sometime council member, won't go there.

there's one tribe who won't open casinos...and good on them!

Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

well, you know the rest.

now, which organ: the one between the legs or the one between the ears? Hmmmm.....

so car drivers will HEAR motorcycles. :-)

STURGIS, S.D., Aug. 2 — Robert Simpson pieces together a living, building ranch fences and riding saddle broncs at rodeos. When things get tough, he says, he makes a trip from his home in Montana to the Black Hills of South Dakota, where he can practice the traditional ways of his tribe, the Northern Cheyenne, with four days of fasting and praying on a bed of buffalo robes and sage atop Bear Butte.

“Spirits come and hear your prayers,” Mr. Simpson said. “You can regroup from everyday life, and get your marbles together. It’s peaceful.”

But Bear Butte, which dozens of tribes hold as one of the most sacred sites in North America, is getting a new neighbor: a giant biker bar and campground are under construction about two and a half miles away. They are scheduled to open this weekend, in time for the annual Sturgis Motorcycle Rally, one of the country’s largest biker events, which officially starts Monday.

The potential for rock music, roaring motorcycles and thousands of people drinking near the striking volcanic Bear Butte formation has brought American Indians from around the country to an encampment on the treeless plains near here ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/04/us/04sacred.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

August 4, 2006

STURGIS, S.D. -- When folks say the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally doubles the population of South Dakota, it's only a slight exaggeration. More than 500,000 bikers invade the Black Hills each August; 776,000 people live in the state ...

It came to a boil this year when Arizona entrepreneur Jay Allen started building what he proudly calls the world's biggest biker bar just 2 miles from Bear Butte, one of the most sacred sites of the Plains tribes.

"Imagine sitting in a church or sitting in a synagogue, trying to have a ... prayer service, and you have half a million bikes running by every minute of the day and night for three weeks," said Debra White Plume, a Lakota Sioux from the nearby Pine Ridge Indian Reservation ...

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060804/NEWS07/608040455/1009

biker rally to Jan 7-13 ? A pair of spiked tires and they're all set to go.

I can sympathize with them on, but the fact that the party is too loud is just too damn bad. Skip that weekend.

I LIVE here. Many of us don't want this noise.

The Bear Butte issue is a long-running issue, and is one they are very upset about. They are sick and tired and seeing everything chipped away from them... while they continue to live in,literal Third World conditions.

nature, the bird calls, the movements of small critters, the slidings of snakes, the whoosh of falcon wings, the crinkling of the sand, the spinning of webs, and to the quiet sounds of humans, their breath, their sighs, their quiet songs, their small rattles, their natural drums.

It can be fun on a bike--roaring through, wind in your face, your body out there, unlike canned in a car. Freedom! It's intoxicating, rebellious.

But we must learn not to insult others, and to sometimes listen to Mother Earth and to the quiet ones among us. A buffer is a modest request. Biker rebels should get out of deaf mode and listen, and hear it. Find common ground. Yield. Don't let those who exploit YOU--by charging too much for nature's product, beer, and for gas, and for your bikes and your gear--exploit THEM. Join forces! For instance, make the biker bar donate a percentage to the Indians for preserving land and critters.

Bike riding is an artificial sort of freedom--based on an oil economy that is killing others. Should we kill for oil? Should we kill for THIS kind of freedom? We need to be conscious of what we do. "Know thyself"--as Socrates said. Are we propelled into artificial freedoms--like the "freedom" that cars were sold as (now look at the smog and the bumper to bumper freeways!), by corporate predators, who sell us things--and are killing us with their greed?

Biking is running away. No fault in that. It's a good impulse. Just think about it, is all I'm saying. And try to understand another way--people into QUIET wildness. Will there be any earth left for them to inherit, when we've all done with our noise, and our polluting products, and our revelry, and our wars? Maybe they will be the human seed of the future. Give them their quiet, their worship. Give them their land, a buffer. Value them equally with your escape. Their prayers may save us all.

I had to tell you. Thanks and peace.

400 miles a week since I work in a different town than I live. I think your post is very self serving and full of shit.

You have your ideas about bikes and that is your right but it don't make it so. Like so many people here on DU you act like a pompous elitist ass when something someone else does isn't to your liking.

I really get tired of your kind on this board.

but helmet laws suck. I'd rather see more peace pipes myself.

I'm sick of the bikers on DU who act like they have a chip on their shoulder.

I live in a biker town, and one thing I noticed. Sure are alot of ex-bikers, mangled backs,heads, necks , legs, brains. Lots of brain drain in the biker crowds

The Indians have the right of way here, and most bikers these days are just nothing more than lemmings, really. The rebel image is really just that, an illusion, these bogus rallies are stupid and worthless status images.

Let the tribes have their peace

all people who ride motorcycles in the same box. A little about me. I ride a Kawasaki VN 1500. I get 48 MPG and I'm riding it as opposed to my F-150 that gets 18 MPG. I live in the lower Sierra Nevada Mountains. I ride 100 miles to the town I work in. My ride takes me through miles of mountain roads, then past a large lake, through a wide open mountain valleys, over a 6000 ft mountain pass out into a high desert. I respect and enjoy all of the beautiful natural scenery I see. I don't have loud pipes. Loud pipes piss me off. I didn't take the pollution controls off my bike.

I also live on twenty acres and own 3 horses. I can ride or walk for miles through the mountains and not see another person. I am surrounded by coyotes, bob cats, rabbits, deer, squirrels, as hawks and ravens fly overhead. Occasionally I see a bald eagle.

On weekends I am a docent at a state park which is the protected site of the winter home of the Native Americans that use to live here. There are pictographs there so you can only go there on a tour which I am one of the leaders of. I teach those on the tour about the Native Americans who use to live here so that they can have an understanding and appreciation of what those people were like. I had to study about these Native Americans for over a year before I could lead the tours.

There are thousands of people who ride motorcycles that are not what you make them out to be. So stick your ignorant prejudices up your ...!

I have an old GS750 that I ride when I'm not shuttling kids or hauling building materials. I also live out in the country, and love the experience of rounding a curve and seeing deer, elk, or the occasional bald eagle.

I have something of an attitude about those who go to Sturgis. It's a celebration of affluence, obnoxiousness and general antisociality. It's a paradox in which people descend on one small town to celebrate their collective individuality - among a half-million people just like themselves.

...and to get drunk and look at boobies.

I thought the post to which you replied was quite good, and I wouldn't overreact to the perceived stereotype. There's a better target for the negative stereoype of motorcyclists; the retired business professional who feels the need to spend $25,000 on a motorcycle, $6,000 on shiny/noisy shit and $8000 on the costume so that he can be cool for 600 miles/year.

I guess I'm a born-again squid.

The image lemmings, dress the same,ride the same sleds, go to the same rallies and ride from bar to bar to coleslaw wresting, yet claim to be rugged individualists....

I've been there several times over 25 years. I've also gone to Daytona, Laconia, the Hoot, Americade, and others. The RUBs are there, so are older style riders. Stugris is also a much harder and prettier ride than some of the others. Its a big enough rally that lumping everyone in as a RUB is unfair. Sort of like lumping all Democrats in with the DLC

In any community of a half-million, no matter identical they appear, there are bound to be differences.

Individuals attending Sturgis are bound to run the gamut of RUB's for whom the logo and the image are the all-encompassing consideration, to the not-quite so rich, or not-quite so urban bikers for whom the logo and the image are the all-considering consideration. Admittedly, there are a few Goldwing riders, sent there to serve the function formerly served by court jesters, to amuse the royalty.

... But, aside from the jesters, ya can't tell 'em apart by their officially-endorsed costume. If Sturgis truly were a celebration of two-wheeled freedom, you'd see all kinds of motorcycles represented (not just Harleys and their variants) you'd see a few people wearing something more protective than a half-helmet and you'd see an occasional protective riding suit.

I see little difference between worshiping a Luis Vuitton logo and a HD logo.

I'm sorry... on further reflection, that's unfair. The Luis officianados don't equip their purses with 100db look-at-me noisemakers, and the company doesn't have the audacity to patent the resulting cacophony.

I'm occasionally tempted to make the trip to Sturgis. My full-face Shoei, Aerostitch and $800 Suzuki with a DU bumpersticker will school y'all in what being a rebel is all about.

When I owned a small sailboat, everyone I saw on the water waved back, even if they were sailing a 70-foot-long $2m floating palace. When I upgraded to what was arguably a proper yacht, everyone I sailed past, even dads fishing with their kids in 12' dinghies, returned my greeting, but when I ride my old bike, everyone will wave back - except anyone on a Harley.

Prove me wrong. Next time you're waved at by the rider of a non-V twin, return the greeting. I'll know it's you.

;)

Until the stereotype no longer works, I'm with the tribe.

I wave to everybody and some wave back, some don't. Doesn't seem to matter much what kind of bike they are on.

I still think you are overly stereotyping Sturgis. The crowd there is really two groups. Those that rode there and are serious about riding in general and those that didn't and aren't. I have shown up on my rice burners and get treated respectfully. Its clear I rode there from somewhere else, the bike has the bugs and I have the sunburn to prove it. Laconia and Americade are much the same. Daytona is more of a poser event, but its really sucky riding, so it should not surprise anyone.

I too get a big kick out of the logo fetish some have. I have some friends who are into it, which I needle them for every chance I get. However, they also put in the miles, so they are not posers/RUBs. I used to have a few parody shirts but when they wore out I did not replace them. I do not have a single piece of logo attire for my current ride except the key fob that came with the bike. When I replaced my tank a while back I did not put the logos back on it, so its not even on the bike. I wear a full face Arai with my 10 year old 'stich which I bought when I got this bike. The bike has 143K on it as of today. Shows what liquid cooling and a shaft drive can do with proper maintenance.

If you have not made it to either of the HD factories, they are worth stopping in to see. The one in PA was quite interesting in its history. That said, I still won't buy their stuff. Nothing political, its just over priced.

alot of bikers are losers and vice versa. Many of them are racists. Many of them are either rebel flag wavers or pseudo-patriot "bomb iraq" types. Many are misogynists.

the newer "wanna be" crowd have small dick issues and are freepers.

Not really a progressive crowd for a bunch of free-spirited fakes

I don't ride a motorcycle, but I know already that you don't know what the heck you're talking about. Rank ignorance.

and unfortunately, I think you are wrong in your characterization. I always expect bikers will be more like me, but they are almost always as the poster asserts. It is depressing but true in my experience.

...my 250 gets about 80 mpg. :D

I will however, as a rider, go out on a limb and say most people on two wheels are jackasses. I've hung out with a lot of them.

But the beautiful ones, who can head up into high country with me, riding fire roads with four-stroke bikes quiet enough to sneak up on wildlife (my bike is a former USFS trail-maintenance special, complete with pulaski rack) and get to amazing places before the afternoon lightning storms hit...

Well, I guess I'm tired of motorcycle rider stereotypes, too. I also ride to work, probably a quite different road as there's no pavement, but sounds like we enjoy similar vistas... I'm a Rocky Mountain fellow, myself. :hi:

...I get a real kick out of the yuppies and wannabes in their biker costumes.

And it's not even Halloween, yet.

Why do some people need to play dress up?

"Cowboys" in $50,000 pickups and SUVs.

"Bikers" on $40,000 Harleys or similar clones.

Like George Carlin said, "Hey...why not walk down the street in a pirate costume?"

They're free to do what they like, I guess, but know that most of us are laughing at them behind their backs while they disturb the peace for three miles in every direction with those annoying drag pipes. I can certainly see why the locals in Sturgis are sick of them.


:hide:

Duck! Here come th' flames....

Some factal corrections:

"Bikers" on $40,000 Harleys or similar clones.
Closer to $25K stock, unless its a semi custom.

I can certainly see why the locals in Sturgis are sick of them.
The local at Sturgis love them. They provide a great deal of outside income in a fairly short timeframe. They pluck them clean like chickens. A good friend has parents and sibilings near there. We have stayed with them the times I can gone to Sturgis. The stories they tell are amazing.

...and 25,000 doesn't buy much in that department. They're pretty, they're neat and they're really expensive.


Which is precisely why I'll never own one.

I entertained thoughts of it years ago, but age and sanity have won out... Or perhaps I've just turned into an old stick-in-the-mud. ;)

"Factual Correction" indeed... :rofl:


My friend and the rest of the crew won't have anything to do with the Sturgis Circus, and haven't for about the last 13-15 years; when the yuppies started having "biker" fantasies, the rally went to shit. Now it's just another marketing opportunity.

Personally, I bet it won't take too much longer until the hassle and nuisance outweigh the "money-making opportunity" for the locals.

Maybe by then the Yuppies and the Wannabes will have moved on and found a new fetish to indulge...custom HotRods, perhaps? Or maybe stunt airplanes. :eyes:

Talk about expensive toys.....

I could have 15 copies of my house for what that '36 Chrysler Custom Airflow Coupe at the top of the list cost.

Egad. :wow:

I have done many vision quests on Bear Butte, and it is a sacred ceremony that you prepare for all year. You go through a sweat lodge, and then find your place on the hill, and there you stay for 4 days. You don't take water or food, and you don't leave the "alter" you make for yourself and your pipe (about 5' x 5' square). On the end of the 4th day, you come back down and do another sweat lodge (where you finally get water).

And once you're up there, you know what you do? You pray. Not like you're talking to Santa Claus asking for stupid stuff. You pray with the rhythm of the earth, giving and taking of the love that is free there. And you pray for PEACE, for everyone -- even your enemies.

It takes a lot of preparation to go 4 days without food, water, or sleep. And when you're in that state, your whole body is extremely sensitive to each noise, and every movement of wind, flora and fauna. They call it a "vision quest" because you really do begin to "see". Not hallucinations, but the rhythms and vibrations of the deepest realities given to us.

These lands are the sacred praying grounds where natives of this land have gone for as long as history stretches back. To have a bunch of partying bikers whooping it up makes you more than aware of how far our civilization has fallen from its sacred space.

I wish just one summer, all the Sturgis bikers would agree to do the vision quest, instead of the rally. Just one time, and they'd be more than willing to change routes. Nobody would ever have to ask them again. In fact, the Butte would probably, from then on out, be crawling with biker vision questers.

:kick::kick::kick::kick:

while driving by my house. All I could think is "where's my rifle". Why are there laws for car noise but bikes can have NO mufflers & send my nervous system into a involuntary collapse endangering my life?

Edit - and I'm pleased to read that you are a biker like me (was until I had kids who depend on me & I've already had one bad concussion from some nitwit in a car who ran a stop sign) who knows what a muffler is for.

... is not "running away".

I'm a motorcyclist. I love going for a ride out in the country, occasionally with a friend or maybe two.

Going to Sturgis is a whole 'nother thing. Personally, I would avoid any activity in which the pressing mass of affluent, self-indulgent humanity precludes the right of the people who live there to pursue their happiness.

"Welcome to the rugged individualists club: Here's your uniform."

Then Republicans would be stumbling over themselves trying to make sure them evil satan worshiping bikers could not go there.

Not that I have anything against Bikers.

Would you be with a group of Southern Baptists making the same claims?

NGU.

I honestly don't think many who are supporting this would be consistant in also supporting a plea from a religous organization under the same circumstances.

...it isn't is fooling his or herself. It's about a sovereign right to the land, as well.

NGU.

Of course, the Baptists in question would likely pick a locale and date that would coincide with some noisy and "sinful" gathering, just so they could bitch and moan about it... At least every Baptist I'm related to would...

The Lakota have at least a few hundred years over the internal combustion engine in this case, so I rule in their favor.

But, I still side with the Indians.

NGU.

The bikers can easily find another place. The Indians can't. Plus, they were there first. And I have nothing against bikes, either.

but I also know that the influx of revenue to the area has to help the basic economy long after this 1 or 2 weeks of aggravation passes. I wonder why the Indians don't use to their advantage and set up booths along the route and sell some of their wares. I would be inclined to think they could buy a buffer before long. I mean 500,000 bikers average $2 bucks a piece there is the million needed to purchase the buffer region right?

Wonder if they go up the mountain to pray and reflect on the "Legend of the White Buffalo Calf Woman" and what elder Cecelia Fire Thunder is teaching them: "The first teaching of the pipe is sexual respect for women". link

Lakota president ousted, abortion politics


Former Oglala Sioux Tribal President To Challenge Impeachment Over Proposed Abortion Clinic Donations Allegation
Tribe's View of Abortion

Tribe members officially have not been surveyed, but many said they support exceptions to an abortion ban in the case of rape, incest or to protect the health of the pregnant woman, the Chicago Tribune reports. According to Department of Justice statistics, American Indian women are three times more likely to be sexually assaulted than white women, and rape and incest are more common on reservations than in the rest of the U.S. Regardless of people's views on abortion, "people on both sides seem to agree" that "abortion is women's business, not suitable for men to be discussing in the chambers of the tribal council or anywhere else," according to the Tribune. The Oglala Tribal Council has passed an ordinance that prohibits abortion procedures on the reservation, the Tribune reports (Peres, Chicago Tribune, 7/30).
Kaiser Foundation


Good luck on that noise bylaw, 'traditional native values' thang, guys --

drunken sex party. but thats just from the pics.

why do you think it draws 500,000 people!

You pretty much have it pegged!

Been there several times, its over rated. Its mostly vendors and expensive beer and lots of people riding in from outlying areas. Not that much real action. Sturgis also does not have the kind of entertainment infrastructure that the newer places surrounding it are offering. They are siphoning off the hotel staying, trailer your MC most of the way RUBs who have the money to support bars etc of the sizes being built.

Biker babe stuff is much more common at Daytona. Much less camping, more hotels, and a lot more bars catering to those looking for T&A (can I say that here?).

Worse yet is that Daytona is a sucky place to ride while the Black Hills are awesome. Note that I do it on a machine meant for miles, not posing, with stock exhaust system. I also commute on said motorcycles at 40 mpg unless there is snow and ice on the roads.

Billy Jack (before he was Billy, that is...) vs. the Born Losers

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061420/


Tom Laughlin's first cinematic outing, I think.

Drive-in dreck, to be sure.....

I really feel for the people who live there, especially for the ones who consider this a sacred site. We have an annual bike run through our area that attracts several thousand and it is horrible. I never go to town during the run. And, there is always at least one biker killed and some hideously injured during the run.

be hard to fight this 600 acre "development". So sad.

http://www.brokenspokesaloon.com/Sturgis%20County%20Line%20Info.htm

snip>

Big Changes at the Broken Spoke Saloon!

The first phase of Sturgis County Line will have over 150,000 s.f. of asphalt for semi-tractor trailers, hand-picked vendors, motorcycle stunt riders and one hell-of-a-lot of parking spaces for the bikers.

snip>

Now get this! On the property, just south from the Broken Spoke Saloon on Highway 79 there will eventually be an amphitheater that can support World Class Acts. You will enter on the Southwest side of Sturgis County Line and park at the base of a hill. With about a two-minute walk up, when you peak at the top, you’ll look down the other side and see only one man-made object surrounded by a natural bowl which is conducive to a great concert experience, and mother nature as far as the eye can see. The object is a stage that will be constructed to meet the specifications of the biggest music acts known to mankind.

The best thing of all is when you look over the top of the stage Bear Butte Mountain will be poised as if it were the crown of a king. However, its history has proven it to be much more special than that! Sturgis County Line Amphitheater will comfortably accommodate 30,000+ concert goers. We want our events at the Amphitheater to be open to as many rally goers and entertainers as possible so we will always keep ticket prices as low as we can.

snip>

As you can see, there will be lots to do at Sturgis County Line. Outside of the Broken Spoke Saloon, Sturgis County Line Amphitheater, a small rodeo arena, Builder’s Bar, Schoolhouse Bar, and the Mexican Cantina, we want to leave the rest of this beautiful property untouched! So sit back with a cold one while watching a Bear Butte Sunset! It doesn’t get better than that.



Here's a link to the owners "PR" site...
http://www.brokenspokesaloon.com/Facts%20about%20Location.htm

Per the website:

Although there is protest from the Alliance regarding Jay Allen's property rights to operate a Broken Spoke, and an ongoing effort by various tribes to acquire as much land as possible surrounding Bear Butte Mountain, it should be noted that the American Indians passed up two opportunities to purchase the 600 acres. The land was for sale for two years prior to our purchase. The original owner, Jim Reed, initially offered to sell the 600 acres to the American Indians before putting it on the market. The offer was declined. Then at one point, Jay Allen offered the land for sale to the American Indians for exactly what he paid for it when there was initial protest from the Bear Butte Alliance. No offer was accepted whatsoever, therefore Jay kept his land, continuing with his plans and ongoing intent to share the land with everyone.

I've had a few beers in the original Broken Spoke and did not realize this one was connected to it.

to save bear butte and purchase the property. Evidently they could not get the funds. They were probably caught up in legal battles for the billions they are owed through corrupt treaties and land theft or were trying to decide between heat,food,health care, etc. Besides the B.I.A. dictates the funds alloted and seldom does the money, or enough, make it to the people that would find bear butte to be important or sacred. Before people start screaming casinos they best investigate the revenue pulled in by the supposed casino on pine ridge. When I went by I saw two or three cars in the parking lot. It was weekday though.

greedy jerk. He can't understand why they were offended by his proposed 80 foot "Injun" statue? He was going to call the place "Sacred Ground"? Personally, I hope most bikers stay away and his business "sucks" this year, but it's probably one of those "if you build it, they will come" deals.

Quite a few of my biker friends aren't going this year anyway...boycotting the SD abortion ban. I'm e-mailing the ones that are still going to at least inform them of the issue. Maybe they'll boycott the place.

Not sure how to read the part about the land purchase. When he says "the offer was declined" does that mean on offer to purchase by the American Indians or the offer to sell to them? Same question with his "No offer was accepted" when he offered to sell the land to them. The guy sure sounds "snaky" enough to twist the meanings.

They tried to raise the funds...
http://www.defendbearbutte.org/buy_land.htm

snip>

The organization opposes a plan by a bar owner to use 600 acres near the butte as an entertainment site and campground during the annual Sturgis Motorcycle Rally.

The group wants to buy up the land as a buffer zone. Using the land as an entertainment venue and campground would be disrespectful because American Indians consider the butte a sacred site, members of the group said.

Defenders of the Black Hills earlier stopped a gun range from being developed on the land.


They set up a trust fund and were successful in fighting a shooting range...
http://www.defendbearbutte.org/land_trust_fund.htm

snip>

Defenders of the Black Hills and other groups have fought what they see is commercial encroachment and noise on land near the shoulders of Bear Butte.

The groups managed to stop construction of a federally subsidized shooting range four miles north of Bear Butte. More recently, the groups have publicly opposed plans for a Sturgis motorcycle rally bar and concert venue north of the butte.

“Since many people want to help protect the land surrounding Bear Butte, the organization decided that opening a land trust fund would allow everyone the opportunity to do fundraising events and contribute to the fund,” members wrote.

Donations to the Bear Butte Land Trust Fund may be sent to the Wells Fargo Bank, 825 St. Joseph St., Rapid City, SD, 57701.


But alas, the legal fees used for fighting the shooting range was wasted - seems the state had no right to award the grant money to the shooting range to begin with. Meanwhile they're SOL for the money they spent fighting it. Money that was meant to protect Bear Butte.

http://www.defendbearbutte.org/attorneys_fees.htm

snip>

Sturgis and its Industrial Expansion Corp. had been promised $825,000 in federal Community Development Block Grant money channeled through the state to help pay for the $900,000 shooting range.

The project was challenged in court by tribes that said the sound of gunfire would disrupt Indian religious ceremonies at Bear Butte, located a few miles away. A separate lawsuit challenged the use of CDBG money for the project.

After a review, the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development told the state the shooting range failed to meet objectives of the grant program. The state then canceled the grant and Sturgis, lacking the grant money, abandoned the project.

Defendants then moved to dismiss the lawsuit as moot, and the tribe agreed except for the issue of attorneys' fees, which a federal judge denied last September.

I say that with respect to those americans that sympathize with the Native cause, although I feel comfortable painting american with a broad brush as whether a huge sum of conscience americans are against the desecration of something sacred or meaninful, "america" always gets it's way. Democracy means you can complain but you truly have no say. This "democracy" has and will always go the way of money and ethnocentric propaganda(There are alot more than natives who are against this selfish economic assault, which the media don't seem to say).
Not even christianity seems very sacred, except as a tool to gain more ground(can't pretend to be a christian and not know what sacred or spirituality means). The burial grounds in this country can't stop the machines and minds from "economic progress".
If one owns 20 acres of land and can walk for miles and see noone than he knows what it means to have peace and obviously lives this way for a reason.
The Black Hills is the heart of this continent for many nations and this is no secret to the government(thats why they had to carve those
elitists into the rock so the Indian nations will always know who is willing to commit the worst acts against humanity and nature, as thier "reservation camps" were the closest to it)so the Lakota Nation was "allowed" to retain them and much more, which was proof that these mountains were seen as sacred by all, and they were not worth americans dyin over. Only when gold was found did the facts and the worth of human lives take a back seat.
Again money dictates. America as a whole has since it's inception gone far out of it's way to destroy or disrupt and even eliminate everything sacred to the Indian nations of this continent, like land and the right to breath. They have not gained anything since losing almost everything thanks to our democracy, which feeds and clothes them when it sees fit. And here again another story for the books. A stupid biker bar holds more precedence over doing the right thing. How the Native community can take this desecration of it's holy sites and taking of thier lands for generation after generation I as a white american will never know. Thanks for letting me vent. This is my wifes login (ellie)so don't take it out on her if you dont like what I said. It's just my opinion anyway right? Mitakuye oyasin everybody.

americans, or economic or business opportunities. I am against thoughtless decision making and attacks on what is sacred, which as I watch the news, I believe the worlds running out of. I truly believe this situation could work for everyone involved, although I also believe the Natives have the say as they were here first. And might don't make right. The U.S. government needs to honor it treaties. If they had done so from the start this would not even be happening, and thats where the debate on this subject should start.

get your own screenname, already! You should stick around.

My posts are few but I've been reading the peoples words here a long time. Thanks again.

struggle. I found the link to the Indian Law Resouce Center site very informative as well.

I listened to Native Americans dicuss this subject two days ago. This is about the same lack of respect that we see going on in the name of this country, all over the world. The same lack of respect that killed millions of Native Americans who were living here long before the settlers showed up. Why do they disrespect the sacred area when they could go somewhere else? I don't recall much more than that, but it's the basics of the discussion I heard.