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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 07:42 AM
Original message
Losing Hearts And Minds [most important story of the year]
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101031208-552124-1,00.html
Losing Hearts And Minds
Unmoved by Bush's visit, Iraqis blame the U.S. for civilian deaths, missing detainees and razed homes
By BRIAN BENNETT; VIVIENNE WALT/BAGHDAD

Monday, Dec. 08, 2003
Mohammed Ali Karam wants to kill a U.S. soldier. He doesn't love Saddam Hussein, and he was happy in April when U.S. Marines rolled through his Baghdad neighborhood on their way to liberate the capital. But he turned against the Americans the night he saw his brother Hussein, 27, take two bullets in the neck. At 10:30 p.m. on Nov. 17, Karam says, he and three of his brothers were driving to a neighborhood where the pumps were working in order to get water for their home. Hussein, in the passenger seat, talked excitedly about having his new suit tailored for his upcoming wedding. That's when 82nd Airborne paratroopers, crouched in an observation post across the street, opened fire — after rounds struck their position, they say. Three of the brothers ran to the safety of a creek bed, but Hussein didn't make it. In the car, said Karam, the soldiers found Hussein — gurgling blood through his throat — but no weapons. Hussein died on the way to the hospital — three days before his wedding.

It's hard to say how many Iraqi civilians have been killed in the fighting. The U.S. military does not track civilian casualties in wartime. Iraqi hospital records are unreliable, and because Iraqi Muslims usually bury their dead swiftly, deaths are not always recorded. The Project on Defense Alternatives in Cambridge, Mass., estimates that about 200 Iraqi noncombatants have been victims of coalition firepower since May 1, when President Bush announced the end of major hostilities.

The widespread arrests and detentions are no less troubling to Iraqis. U.S. officials last week said they are holding roughly 5,000 "suspected terrorists" in custody in Iraq, including 300 with foreign passports. But the officials aren't always able to say where the detainees are, frustrating Iraqis desperately looking for friends or family members who have disappeared. The last time Raed Karim al-Ani saw his brother Mohammed, 27, was in mid-May, when the taxi driver climbed into his battered 1983 Volkswagen and chugged out the driveway of his parents' house. In early July two men came to the house with Mohammed's ID card and car, and said they had seen U.S. soldiers pin him to the ground at a checkpoint, then haul him away.

Raed, who had already checked Baghdad's morgues, drove the next day to a U.S. military base to ask if his brother was being held there. An Iraqi translator suggested he try the detention center at Baghdad international airport, where a soldier told Raed to return the next day to another entrance. There, hundreds of Iraqis stood for hours in 120º heat, searching for relatives. Finally, an American woman tapped Mohammed's name into a laptop computer but came up with nothing. She told Raed to try the Republican Palace; there a U.S. soldier turned him back. Overhearing his plight, an Iraqi driver directed Raed to a place on the bank of the Tigris where hundreds of Iraqis were scouring lists of names pasted to the walls of a building. "I realized these were relatives of Saddam's prisoners who had been executed before the war," Raed says with a bitter laugh. "Their names had just been released." Iraqi families looking for missing relatives sense echoes of Saddam's era. "At least in Saddam's days, the police would tell families they had arrested their people," says Mohammed's mother Khalida Ahmed al-Salehy.

Asked by Time about Mohammed's case, a U.S. military official in Baghdad replied by e-mail that there was a surefire place to check: the master list of detainees' names that every police station now has. Armed with this answer, Mohammed's brother Adil went to al-Jihad police station near the family home last week and asked for the list. The lieutenant on duty drew a blank, saying he had no knowledge of one.

A U.S. intelligence official in Iraq says even he has trouble locating detainees he wants to talk to or get released. "There's no accurate list," he told Time. "It's a big problem." It may also be a violation of the Geneva Conventions. "There is a responsibility to at least notify families that someone is arrested," says Florian Westphal, a spokesman for the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva, which monitors the conventions worldwide.
<snip>
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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. Because they don't keep track of civilian deaths
...they can make up any number they want.
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
2. no accurate list of detainees ...how can that be..?
Edited on Mon Dec-01-03 08:49 AM by cthrumatrix
"this is a violation of the Geneva Convention"....I wonder how shrub's administration wil spin this...

This is illegal...would we like the same treatment to our families?
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ablbodyed Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. It's clear that they don't care....
about the Geneva Convention. Bullies never do care about rules as long as they are strong enough to get away with what they want to do. And the American public DOES NOT CARE EITHER. That's the saddest fact of all.
We have to admit that we live in a country of morons and selfish puny people. Not all certainly, there's MILLIONS of generous loving souls in this country, and we all know many, but as a national ethos we are NOT generous.
Much of the good that this country has done has been in spite of this selfishness and with strong opposition. Now that ethos is embedded in the highest reaches of the government. All the good will of the world (and there was some, even though our actions were often VERY sel;-serving) generated over the last century has been dissapated. It will NEVER return.
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jmcgowanjm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Why is this LBN? 'cause Time did it?
Here's your hearts and minds America.

The US victory in Samarra that wasn't.

Residents of Samarra disputed those figures, saying at most eight or nine people died. Three bodies lay in the hospital morgue. There was no way to reconcile the accounts.

Many residents said Saddam loyalists attacked the Americans, but that when U.S. forces began firing at random, many civilians got their guns and joined the fight. Many said residents were bitter about recent U.S. raids in the night.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E56B8E35-2484-40C5-935E-B452A2C74769.htm

Oh and BTW, we were right about the Helos
hit by an RPG and crashing into each other.
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/30/sprj.irq.black.hawks/
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jmcgowanjm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Reuter's est.: 10K Iraqis in detention
Reuters news agency estimates that up to
almost 10,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed
in this invasion. More than 6,000 Iraqi soldiers
were killed. And there are about 10,000 Iraqis
in detention in Iraq

Iraqis have little or no electricity, food is scarce,
people don't have jobs and the level of
anarchy in Iraq is so high, it's a miracle
the Iraqi people are not rebelling more than
they have.

One night last week, U.S. soldiers busted
down the doors of 1,400 Iraqi homes, scared
the living daylights out of children and interrogated
their parents, often kicking them around and
arresting them arbitrarily.
They call it Operation Iron Hammer

http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/brodbeck_nov30.html








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demnan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
3. Vietnam Redux
n/t
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berner59 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. war crimes galore....
Edited on Mon Dec-01-03 08:45 AM by berner59
I just emailed this around - this IS important!!! When is someone going to call Bush on this stuff!!! Where are the investigations...where is the outrage??? I don't blame our soldiers one bit - they are in an impossible situation there, thinking everyone is an enemy and no real plan going... This should be front page headlines. We should email this to every Dem candidate hoping one will have the guts to speak out!!
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Oggy Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
6. If you changed
the word Iraqi to Palastinian and American to Isreal, then it could be an article from any time in the last few years. Who is teaching who?
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
9. when did they ever have those "hearts and minds" to lose?
.
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DemExpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
10. This post violates DU's copyright rule
of posting 3-4 paragraphs of an article.
Please feel free to re-post following these rules:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#copyright

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DemEx
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