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gp Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 12:45 PM
Original message
BBC: Nasrallah regrets triggering war
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 12:46 PM by gp
Hezbollah chief Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah has said he would not have ordered the capture of two Israeli soldiers if he has realised it would lead to war.


Link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5291420.stm
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Greeby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yeah right
You're just as bad as them, Nasrallah. Don't try and play saint with us :eyes:
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
90. So who is he to be ordering kidnappings anyway?
Who elected him anything?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #90
98. If Israel can kidnap elected officials in Palestine and Lebanese civilians
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 09:14 PM by IndianaGreen
it is obvious that the Middle Eastern way is to make a trade.

I will point out that unlike Israel, Hezbollah targeted Israel's military operating in Lebanese territory.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2478290#2478331
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #98
106. But my question is who's Nasrallah
to be making any such decisions?

Did he just appoint himself protector of Lebanon and kidnapper of the nation's enemies? Maybe he should have cleared that through the elected government first.
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toopers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #98
108. Which civilians has Israel targeted?
I only remember targeting people that are leaders of terrorist organizations.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thank You For The Laughter, Sir
Always nice to wake up to something that brings a chuckle, and this tit-bit you have passed on really hit the spot....
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
27. Blessed are the peacemakers, eh?
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Indeed, My Friend
And the say the meek shall inherit the earth, but the probate seems unusually lengthy....
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
100. I don't know...
I would think he would regret the war. All the pundits I've heard have said that this war was a boon for Hezballah and that politically, Israel lost the war. However, the Hezballah victory is obviously only a moral victory. The people who support Hezballah's defense of Lebanon need only look at the pictures of that country to see how effective the defense was. Israel was able to attack freely and Hezballah was reduced to sniping from the fences. If the world now views a victory as getting the living shit kicked out of you and not dying then Hezballah won that war; otherwise I'd give the victory chalice to Israel. If the U.N. is serious about the reconstruction in Lebanon, Hezballah will find some of it's support eroded by an U.N. back Lebanese government and a shift in the national focus. However, if the U.N. is stupid enough to utilize U.S. reconstruction plans then Hezballah may truly win this war yet. Either way, Hezballah has lots on new pressure's that didn't exist prior to this action by Israel and I'd imagine Nasrallah's role in Lebanon will grow more difficult in the months and years to come. I doubt this event will prove beneficial to Hezballah's aims and I can definitely see why he would not have wanted Israeli engagement over two hostages.
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Bretttido Donating Member (754 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #100
115. At the end of this war, there were no changes in occupied territory
Structural damage can be easily repaired. How the world views your morally cannot. Israel lost... big time.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #100
117. Israel failed to achieve its strategic objectives and kept
re-defining them, still unable to achieve them. Hezbollah did achieve its strategic objectives. If that doesn't equal a Hezbollah win, then perhaps we need to discard the notion that war ever produces a "winner"?
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. Two questions:
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 01:14 PM by PCIntern
1. Who are the 'them' referred to in the first reply?

2. To The Magistrate: I think that it's referred to as 'tidbit'...but I like your style (as the old joke goes).

:evilfrown: :evilgrin: :hippie: :party: :toast: :bounce: :mad: :puke: :eyes: :smoke: :think: :crazy: :silly: :wtf: :argh: :freak: :dunce: :hangover: :nopity: :hurts: :boring: :spank: :wow: :beer: :grr: :nuke: :scared: :thumbsdown: :thumbsup: :hi: :dem: :kick: :shrug: :puffpiece: :loveya: :donut: :tinfoilhat: :hug: :grouphug: :cry: :pals: :headbang: :yourock: :banghead: :dilemma: :blush: :rant: :sarcasm: :woohoo: :applause: :hide: :popcorn: :rofl: :spray: :patriot: :yoiks:
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Tit-bit is the original, British spelling; tidbit is the Americanization
For those who want to know. :-)

Peace.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. ah...thank you...
I like their spelling better...

smoke: :think: :crazy: :silly: :wtf: :argh: :freak: :dunce: :hangover: :nopity: :hurts: :boring: :spank: :wow: :beer: :grr: :nuke: :scared: :thumbsdown: :thumbsup: :hi: :dem: :kick: :shrug: :puffpiece: :loveya: :donut: :tinfoilhat: :hug: :grouphug: :cry: :pals: :headbang: :yourock: :banghead: :dilemma: :blush: :rant: :sarcasm: :woohoo: :applause: :hide: :popcorn: :rofl: :spray: :patriot: :yoiks:
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
34. In these days, people spell any old way, will he nil he, as it were
:rofl:
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Terrific Post alcibiades...great humorrhoid
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 02:07 PM by PCIntern
:smoke: :think: :crazy: :silly: :wtf: :argh: :freak: :dunce: :hangover: :nopity: :hurts: :boring: :spank: :wow: :beer: :grr: :nuke: :scared: :thumbsdown: :thumbsup: :hi: :dem: :kick: :shrug: :puffpiece: :loveya: :donut: :tinfoilhat: :hug: :grouphug: :cry: :pals: :headbang: :yourock: :banghead: :dilemma: :blush: :rant: :sarcasm: :woohoo: :applause: :hide: :popcorn: :rofl: :spray: :patriot: :yoiks:
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #37
62. That's a lot of wasted time with all them smileys
Do you luuuuurv me or something?

Creepy.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #62
104. It only takes one click...
Can you keep a secret?

So can I.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #104
105. Whatever you say
Stalky.

I'm going to go close my blinds now.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. good for him-- at least that is a rational response to the situation....
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 01:21 PM by mike_c
Now it would be nice to hear Ehud Olmert say "we wouldn't have vastly overreacted if we'd known we'd be slaughtering all those non-combatants who didn't hold the captured IDF soldiers anyway," or at the very least "we wouldn't have killed all those civilians if we'd known that we'd be back to square one and a prisoner exchange six weeks later."

Not holding my breath waiting, of course.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. ...so I gather that you
take Nasrallah at his word? Nice that he has such credibility in this country, since he has lost most of it among Lebanese in the past few days. No amount of 'social programs' will convince those damaged so badly that he didn't 'invite' the Israelis in.

The fact of the matter is that Israel did what they did in the way that they did it so the domestic backlash against Hez would be prodigious. And it is/will be.
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. You should go into comedy.
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 01:43 PM by Kagemusha
"they did it so the domestic backlash against Hez would be prodigious. And it is/will be."

Please.

Please...!

And even if it's completely fake, Nasrallah saying what the original post says he said is going to go that much further in dampening a domestic backlash. Not to mention that Hezbollah is vastly more popular than the limp noodle government of the country.

Edit: So I won't have to post a new post later, I'll explain. Nasrallah is being mildly dishonest here. Whatever he'd have laid money on Olmert doing, he prepared Hezbollah - and only Hezbollah - for the worst case likely scenario, which occured. Nasrallah can be mildly dishonest while being believed because of his "reputation for honesty"; because he's relatively honest, he can appear to be honest without being honest on this matter, making a strong PR move ("Who could have known the Jews would be so indiscriminate?" ala Condi Rice) without reeking of PR. He's not on my side, but I respect the man for his competence in Machiavellian political manipulation and military strategy. He brings shame to the little twits trying to live up to the name of Assad and Hussein in Jordan and Syria.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. "mildly dishonest'
clinton was being mildly dishonest in his relationship with Monica. This guy is a killer.

One of the guys you want released form jail in Israel murdered a family's children in from of the parents sadistically.

Is there nothing which will make people understand the nature of these guys? You oughta go live there for a while as a Christian and learn what's going thru their minds. You know what they say over there: first they'll kill those who rest on Saturday, then they'll kill those who rest on Sunday.
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #28
55. Excuse me? One of the guys "I" want released?
Do you have even the slightest rational basis for accusing me of being an associate of this group?

I know damn well that Nasrallah is a killer. His being a canny politician makes him more dangerous to civilized people. He's not the only killer in that part of the world. Some even reside in Israel.

But I really take particular offense at your using the phrase "you want released". I have no polite response to that false accusation.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. in essence, you're suggesting that Israel slaughtered non-combatants...
...by the hundreds in order to make a PR point? That's disgusting. I hope the people of Lebanon are smart enough to realize who was actually murdering them-- it certainly wasn't Hiz'bollah. One has to apply some pretty warped "blame the victim" logic to conclude that Hiz'bollah was responsible for their suffering. It was Israel deliberately targeting civilians, after all.

In any event Nasrallah is acknowledging Hiz'bollah's culpability for what happened-- they stirred a hornet's nest and unleashed a swarm. The real problem remains the hornets, however.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
31. No, that's not disgusting, that's WAR
and what makes anyone think that you can fire rockets into residential areas for YEARS and get away with it? Who the heck are you to determine the fate of all of those civilain Israelis who were living peacably within their orders, having pulled back from Gaza, having relinquished the settlements, the Sinai...

Wars are lost because the civilian population takes losses which are unacceptable to humankind...so the war is stopped. No one really cares about the soldiers except those who are personally connected with the individuals and a relative minority of humanists - soldiers and sailors are paid to fight and perhaps die. But when the population is affected, then that's when wars STOP. That's wy it took so long for us to get out of Vietnam - there were no US casualties other than the soldiers. If the battle had been brought here, believe me, there would have been other arrangements made.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. so you justify the deliberate commission of war crimes...
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 02:11 PM by mike_c
...in the name of strategic expediency? That is shameful. Yes, as a practical truth the impact upon warring parties is greatest when the slaughter is most widespread. In the present case the slaughter was rather disproportionate, but that's not the point-- Hiz'bollah acquitted itself well despite the technological superiority of the IDF. The point is that Hiz'bollah initiated a limited engagement within the tactical confines of previous actions in order to create conditions in which it could free Lebanese citizens from Israeli prisons, and Israel reacted by deliberately slaughtering over a thousand non-combatants, displacing a million more, destroying ten years worth of rebuilding efforts in Lebanon, and attempting to invade southern Lebanon. Israel salted civilian residential areas with cluster munitions. It created an environmental disaster in the Mediterranean Sea. The list of war crimes goes on and on. And you seek to justify them on the basis that sufficient death and pain inflicted upon folks who were not involved-- in a word, collective punishment-- would hasten the collapse of Hiz'bollah? Perhaps Israel should simply nuke the capitals of Scandinavia in hopes that european outrage would be directed against the arabs? That's how much sense your argument makes.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #31
118. Uh, actually, Israel has failed to comply with numerous UN
resolutions calling on it to return to the pre-'67 boundaries, especially with regard to the West Bank. But the "My Israel, right or wrong" crowd always fails to mention that little fact.

Whatever
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
46. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Hawkowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #46
102.  recent condemnation
You must remember that even through the Vietnam War, (under Nixon's operations LinebackerI & II), wholesale, indiscriminate bombing of civilian populations was considered fair game even by the US. Look at WWII for example of both sides.

To me, it is a bright ray of hope that the majority of the world now considers deliberate civilian deaths as war crimes. The first time in history! There may be hope for the human race yet.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
88. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
eccles12 Donating Member (385 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
93. My goodness. Israeli supporters can spin anything, even IDF terrorism.
It would be nice to hear Bush say as much about the illegal invasion of Iraq.
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
107. Dictionary.com definition of terrorism
ter‧ror‧ism Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

ter·ror·ism (tr-rzm) Pronunciation Key
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Main Entry: ter·ror·ism
Pronunciation: 'ter-&r-"i-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the unlawful use or threat of violence esp. against the state or the public as a politically motivated means of attack or coercion
2 : violent and intimidating gang activity

terrorism

n : the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear

So uniforms make it different? Dictionaries have a well-known anti-semitic bias. :sarcasm:
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Yes it would be nice but
it's just a pipe dream. I wish I could remember the source that said within two hours aftering capturing the Israeli soldiers Hezbollah called for a prisoner swap. I guess in the past that had worked for them. Anyone remember?
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. Well as it turns out...
this was what the interview was mostly about...confirming that Italy and perhaps Germany are involved in talks for a prisoner swap.

For some reason, the OP from the BBC has the least amount of information :shrug:

Even Raw Story has more information...

As does Aljazeera, Seattle Post-Intelligence, Reuters, etc.

It's interesting that in some of the accounts like Forbes-AP, or Arutz Sheva that Nasrallah's admission is the front-end to the stories which then to editorially decry his involvement in the prisoner swap.

:shrug:
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. I see. Italy wants this done so no one shoots at its peacekeepers.
That's not a crazy idea for them at all...

But well, Israel's the one that didn't want to negotiate. How Israel can climb back down from that position, I don't know.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Israel could have gone for a prisoner swap, instead...
Olmert conspired with Bush to fight America's proxy war against Iran.

The plans for this war were in the works for 2-years. The border incident was the pretext Israel and its patron Bush needed to start this phase of the upcoming war with Iran.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Hey Indiana?
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 01:34 PM by PCIntern
Prisoner swap? Isn't it ususally true that when the Israelis have to 'swap', it's like 200 terrorist-types (oops, I'm sorry, freedom-fighters - my bad) for 2 Israelis, or worse, maybe 5 Israelis REMAINS?

That's not a 'swap', it's a con-game.


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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I notice how Israel is busting her ass to get the IDF prisoners released
As Sy Hersh revealed, this war was planned well before it began, and Israel consulted with Cheney before the IDF soldiers were captured.

My question to Israelis is: How does it feel to be a mercenary for Bush's upcoming war in Iran?
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Mmmhmm...
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 01:45 PM by PCIntern
Wars are always planned before they begin...thus the term 'war games'. Do you think that the Pentagon or any war machine, including, say, the Syrians or Iranians, don't have plans for scenarios?

Oh I get it...someone wakes up one morning and it goes like this: "Holy shit...the Russians just launched 300 nuclear-tipped missles at...INDIANA! Hey we better get on this and figure out what to do! Let's have some meetings...bring donuts...I especially like the Bavarian Creams." That's for the defensive war...

The offensive war goes like this: "Holy shit...you know what I'd like to do today? Invade Poland. Call Hermann and Rommel and have them stop by for some wursts and beer and we'll get going on this."

My question to you: how does it feel to be a ... Oh never mind. They'll just delete this if I do that.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. well, we'll never know, but my understanding is that Israel...
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 01:42 PM by mike_c
...is holding four Lebanese citizens:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_prisoners_in_Israel

There are currently four known Lebanese citizens in Israeli prisons. Hezbollah has demanded the release of these prisoners as as condition for releasing Israeli reservists Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev, captured in the raid which sparked the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict.

* Samir Kuntar is serving four life sentences for murder for a 1979 attack on a civilian apartment block in Nahariya, Israel.

* Nissim Nasser is an Israeli of Lebanese descent who was arrested in 2002 for spying for Hezbollah.

* Yehia Skaff is described by Hezbollah as a "fighter".

* The other prisoner is Ali Faratan.

Hezbollah initially demanded the release of Kuntar, Nasser, and Skaff at the time of the 2004 Israel-Hezbollah prisoner exchange, but Israel refused.

more@link


on edit-- furthermore, Israel is willing to kill hundreds of innocents to retrieve its POWs, so one would think that willingness would extend to freeing an equal number of political prisoners.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. Yoiu might think that...I wouldn't
they'll just keep doing it - it's like continuous blackmail. But then again, as I pointed out, the ratios are almost always 100-1 or so. No way they're letting out baby killers wholesale. Sorry aobut that...

Imagine if somebody kidnapped a cop's wife here and wanted the release of John Wayne Gacy? Sure...
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. well, that's how prisoner exchanges work....
They're a form of diplomacy, not a form of justice. Israel has every right to refuse to deal for Goldwasser and Regev.
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wordpix2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
69. the war wasn't all about the 2 Israeli prisoners, it was about 30,000
missiles aimed at Israel that were not supposed to be there under the withdrawal agreement when Israel left Lebanon in 2000.

The conflict is not one-sided, but a lot of people here take the position of Hezbollah, a known terror group that's been building up arms against the Israel-Lebanon agreement and Israel itself.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #69
77. well, it's pretty clear who really had the most ordinance aimed...
...at whom, isn't it?
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
116. Political prisoner?
"Samir Kuntar is serving four life sentences for murder for a 1979 attack on a civilian apartment block in Nahariya, Israel"

In what way would this person be considered a "political prisoner"?
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. Dont' the Israeli's regularly kidnap...er.... detain palestenians and
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 02:09 PM by Porcupine
arabs by the hundreds. Didn't they kidnap several people in the Golan just before the start of the conflict? How about the members of the Palestinian parliment that were "detained?"

Yep, they sure do according to Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. So why is this ok for the holy govenment of Israel but not their enemies? Couldn't be racism.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. shh shhh Doesn't happen, move along
only godless Arabs do that
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leQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
59. i think you're right (re: rational response) in this ugly situation
at this point, who cares who hit who first. they both need to stop. both of them need to say enough is enough and each go to their respective corners and seek out how the rest of the world feels. these guys are so boiled up in their own tit-for-tat (as opposed to tidbit) that i'll bet they've lost track of who hit who first. it's time they just shut up, put down their weapons, and take a 72 hour breather. they do it for 3 days they should be able to do it for a week. etc etc etc.

but it aint gonna happen with them acting like fools trying to be blameless.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #59
76. Did the Americans push Israel into the war?
Seymour Hersh reported that Israel consulted the US, specifically Dick Cheney, about an attack on Hezbollah positions in Southern Lebanon before the kidnapping of the IDF soldiers. Hersh also said that war plans were drawn at least a year before the war began, a war that was to be the forerunner of a US attack on Iran.

Questions are being asked in Israel:

It is more important to investigate the roots of the war:

* What made the trio Olmert-Peretz-Halutz decide to start a war only a few hours after the capture of the two soldiers?

* Was it agreed with the Americans in advance to go to war the moment a credible pretext presented itself?

* Did the Americans push Israel into the war, and, later on, demand that it go on and on as far as possible?

* Was it Condoleezza Rice who decided in fact when to start and when to stop?

* Did the US want to get us entangled with Syria?

* Did the US use us for its campaign against Iran?

http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery08192006.html
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Tight_rope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
120. Exactly....And maybe Bush can confess that he lied about IRAQ !!
One can dream can't they.:shrug:
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. This is just good PR for Nasrallah.
After all choosing the timing of the conflict is something akin to strategic brilliance (if only because Olmert fell into it).
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
10. Who's to Blame?
Who's to Blame?

Israel on the Slide

By ALEXANDER COCKBURN


Israel has been kidnapping Lebanese for years, a hefty chunk of the 10,000 or so rotting in horrifying Israeli prisons, like the secret Facility 1391 in central Israel, worse than Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo. On June 25 Corporal Gilad Shalit was kidnapped in Gaza, prompting an escalation in Israel's already barbaric assaults on the civilian population there. Since June 25, says the Palestinian Ministry of Detainees, Israel has kidnapped over 35 Palestinian Parliament Members and 10 cabinet Ministers. It was certainly hard to find in any US paper or newscast any reference to the fact that one day before, on 24 June, Israeli forces kidnapped two civilians in Gaza, a doctor and his brother, and sent them off to some Israeli dungeon. As Noam Chomsky remarked to an interviewer from al-Ahram, "The timing alone reveals with vivid clarity that the show of outrage over the capture of Israeli soldiers is cynical fraud, and undermines any shreds of moral legitimacy for the ensuing actions."

http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn08262006.html

August 23, 2006

The Discrimination Game

The Occupier Defines Justice

By AMIRA HASS


On Jerusalem's Jabotinsky Street, opposite the President's Residence, a medium-sized plaque is fixed on a locked gate, enclosing a broad building and a lovely garden: "This building was the location of the British Mandate Government's High Military Court, which held the trials of the Hebrew resistance fighters from the Haganah, Etzel and Lehi." The sign bears the emblems of the Jerusalem municipality and the three resistance organizations. It further notes: "The resistance fighters refused to acknowledge the authority of the court to judge them, and asked to be recognized as prisoners of war."

The speaker of the Palestinian Authority's parliament, who was arrested two weeks ago by the Israel Defense Forces, also refused to acknowledge the authority of the Military Court to judge him. Obviously the two latest detainees, whose arrest was deemed by Israel to be the appropriate solution to its shortcomings in releasing kidnapped soldier Gilad Shalit, will make the same declaration. Nasser A-Shaer, the Palestinian education minister and deputy prime minister, and Mahmoud Ramahi, chief whip of the Palestinian Legislative Council, were arrested on Saturday and Sunday. Incidentally, the Palestinians have lately ceased using the verb "arrested" in regards to the arrests of Palestinians by Israeli soldiers. Instead they use the verb "abducted."

These three detainees/abducted join about 10,000 other Palestinian prisoners and detainees. As with the prisoners of the Hebrew resistance, who saw themselves as POWs regardless of their actions (killing British soldiers or Arab civilians), some Palestinians request that their prisoners be declared POWs. Others prefer the definition of political prisoners. Let's let the definitions rest. In any case, from the offense to the jailing, Israel, as an occupying force, plays around with the definitions as it sees fit.

http://www.counterpunch.org/hass08232006.html
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Briar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Something our official news media always ignore
"Israel has been kidnapping Lebanese for years, a hefty chunk of the 10,000 or so rotting in horrifying Israeli prisons, like the secret Facility 1391 in central Israel, worse than Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo."

I wonder why.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Israel is "America's Rottweiler."
America's Rottweiler

By Uri Avnery

The Second Lebanon War is considered by many as a "War by Proxy". That's to say: Hizbullah is the Dobermann of Iran, we are the Rottweiler of America. Hizbullah gets money, rockets and support from the Islamic Republic, we get money, cluster bombs and support from the United States of America.

That is certainly exaggerated. Hizbullah is an authentic Lebanese movement, deeply rooted in the Shiite community. The Israeli government has its own interests (the occupied territories) that do not depend on America. But there is no doubt that there is much truth in the argument that this was also a war by substitutes.

The US is fighting against Iran, because Iran has a key role in the region where the most important oil reserves in the world are located. Not only does Iran itself sit on huge oil deposits, but through its revolutionary Islamic ideology it also menaces American control over the near-by oil countries. The declining resource oil becomes more and more essential in the modern economy. He who controls the oil controls the world.

The US would viciously attack Iran even it were peopled with pigmies devoted to the religion of the Dalai Lama. There is a shocking similarity between George W. Bush and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, The one has personal conversations with Jesus, the other has a line to Allah. But the name of the game is domination.

http://www.counterpunch.org/
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allisonthegreat Donating Member (586 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. nobody wins in situations like these
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 01:45 PM by allisonthegreat
Hezbollah, Israel, and Lebanese armies were wrong. There were no clear goals except to see who had the most weapons and how to destroy and kill as much as they could...Clearly there are no winners in this.
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CookieD Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
41. There were no clear winners but Hezbollah is the clear loser ...
Had someone told Nasrallah that kidnapping two Israeli soldiers would lead to a thousand Lebanese deaths (for which Hezbollah will ultimately pay a steep political price), a depletion of Hezbollah's rocket supply and an international force neutralizing Hezbollah's capability in Southern Lebananon, Nasrallah would have laughed. He wouldn't have thought it was possible.

He's not laughing now.

War is a tragic and ugly business. But if Hezbollah, Hamas or any other radical group ever kidnaps another Israeli soldier, the IDF should respond exactly as it did in this case.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Do you even know the definition of "genocide?"
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. Oops. Let's read the definition together shall we?
The Convention (in article 2) defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:"

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Lets see how the above conditions apply to the people of Lebanon a national group.

A) dead people confirmed. Condition met.
B) Condition met.
C) Destroying supply routes, cluster bombing villages, destroying water supplies. Condition met.
D) not proven but conditions in a, b, and c, would certainly limit birth rates
E) no evidence of this condition.

I say that Israel qualifies as a Genocidal actor in this case. Particularly since they specifically stated that they were punishing the Lebanese people for harboring Hezbollah.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. what bullshit!
Did you actually read the statement? "...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:" The intention was to destroy Hizb'allah, not the Lebanese people! I am so sick of this bullshit about "genocide." People 'bitch' about anti-Semitism being "tossed about with reckless abandon," when, in fact, it is crap like this "genocide and ethnic cleansing," that get tossed around with no care! Actual genocide is occurring in Dafur....you almost NEVER see a thread here about that. WHY? I am guessing is because Israel is []not involved, so why would some here give a flip!
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. The US funds the state of Israel. We do not fund Sudan.
The STATE of Israel attacked ALL the people of Lebanon. They attacked north Lebanon, the airport, bridges, ports, water supplies. Do you claim that ONLY Hezbollah used those facilities?

The bullshit is the repeated claims that ANY criticism of Israel from non-Jews represents anti-Semitism. I have no problem with Jewish people as such. I have a huge problem with the actions of the state of Israel. I criticize actions that are evil where I see them.

What I see is that behaviors that would be condemned are excused when an Israeli commits them. It's ok to kill women and children....IF you are a pilot in the Israeli Air Force. It's ok to destroy an occupied apartment building...IF you are a tank commander in the IDF. Here in america we call people who do these things mass murderers and terrorists. But it's OK if the IDF does it right?

DEAD IS DEAD. MAIMED IS MAIMED. The orphan, the bereaved mother and the widow care not that their loved ones were killed by a man in a uniform vs. a man in sandals.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. so....
...it's OK that we sit by and watch the genocide in Dafur because we don't "fund" it. :eyes:

Israel attacked Lebanon, not all the people of Lebanon. "They attacked north Lebanon, the airport, bridges, ports, water supplies. Do you claim that ONLY Hezbollah used those facilities?" Do you claim that Hizb'allah DOESN'T use those facilities?

"The bullshit is the repeated claims that ANY criticism of Israel from non-Jews represents anti-Semitism."

That is, indeed, bullshit, but doesn't happen as much as you and others like to claim, especially here!

"I have no problem with Jewish people as such."

Interesting statement.

"I have a huge problem with the actions of the state of Israel. I criticize actions that are evil where I see them."

Gee, I do too; including when such evil is enacted AGAINST Israel!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #67
109. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. Like It Were a Football Game
"There were no clear winners but Hezbollah is the clear loser ..."

Jesus Christ.... Everybody lost... extremism won.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #41
53. Deleted message
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CookieD Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #53
94. We're all kidding ourselves ...
First, let's be honest about these Israel versus the Arab world debates. This message board and others like it have been systematically infiltrated by advocates for both sides of this issue. DU is smart to send many of these threads off to their own areas because it is simply impossible to engage in a measured, intelligent debate about Israel and what it ought to do about the radical Islamists who are bent on wiping Israel off of the map. Rather than fresh ideas or perspective, we are subjected to dum-dum misapplications of phrases like "Nazi" and "Holocaust" - as if this topic weren't already emotional enough.

I have absolutely no illusion that I am going to convince any of the aforementioned types about whether Israel's response to the kidnapping of its soldiers was appropriate. The posters in this forum and on this thread have already made up their minds. For them it's all about spinning the issue.

In my own humble opinion, I think Hezbollah clearly lost because it underestimated Israel's response to the kidnapping of its soldiers. Hezbollah's own leader has admitted that he wouldn't do it again. In a very real sense - albeit at a tragically high price for both sides - Israel seems to have accomplished its goal of causing its enemies to think very carefully before kidnapping any more Isreali soldiers. Israel ought to make it very clear that if Hamas, Hezbollah or some other radical group sneaks into Israel and captures any more Israeli soldiers, the IDF will do exactly the same thing that it did in Lebanon. (Yes, that's brutal, but war is an ugly business.) Of course, if Hezbollah is willing to pay the same price again and again - and if the Lebanese people are willing to let Hezbollah make that choice for them - then so be it. At least everyone will understand the costs that are involved.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter one iota what the anti-Israelis on this message board (or even what the above poster claims is "world opinion") thinks of Israel. Well before Israel ever became a nation, people have been trying to kill off the Jews for thousands of years. Somehow this remarkable culture has always defended itself against overwhelming odds and colossal forces. I suspect that it always will.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. I support self-defense.
I don't support Israel's (or Hezbollah's) war crimes.

It's really that simple.

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CookieD Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. Congratulations ...
That's your very first acknowledgment on this thread (albeit parenthetically) of Hezbollah war crimes.

In any event I am quite certain that neither side places much stock in either of our anonymous, internet opinions. Hezbollah will fruitlessly continue to try and wipe Israel off of the map and Israel will do whatever is necessary to protect itself.

It's even simpler than you can imagine.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #96
101. Well, if you knew a thing about me, you'd known...
...that I've condemned them in the past.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #94
110. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
52. Hezbollah and Israel I can see, but how was the Lebanese army "wrong"?
NT!

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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. Subscriber only.
So, the article gives the name of the doctor and his brother? I mean, if it is known that it's a doctor and a brother, that means they know their names, hospital affiliation....all that stuff. It's in the article?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
50. I hate to have to do this, IG, because your larger point is correct...
...but there seems to be an inconsistency between those two pieces.

In the first, it's 10,000 Lebanese.

In the second, it's 10,000 Palestinians.

Which is correct? Unless it's being suggested by CP that BOTH numbers are right?

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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
58. Thanks Indiana
I love history lessons. It usually proves that the expression good guys vs. bad guys is overly simplistic.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
70. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. Look up the meaning of the word
propaganda and then tell us that IG's post #10 is propaganda. Calling those facts, presented in IG's post, propaganda, proves that your statement in reply to same is simplistic propaganda.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
19. He thought it would lead to a tea party and pretty cakes?
How delightfully disingenuous. I guess somebody must have noticed that he was willing to see Lebanon laid waste to score a few political points against Israel. Dear me.

And here I thought he was Lebanon's wonderful hero, paying (whose?) cash money for bombed homes and ruined lives. What a fine fellow. Showing them how their government is worth spit and only Hezbullah has power. Gosh, he's great.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #19
33. Right you are, aquart
This guy's gonna get hit if he sticks his head up and my guess is that it's gonna be domestic, not Israeli.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. LOL
Your comedy show just rolls on and on...
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
36. Who knew the IDF would resort to mass murder of civilians!?
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 02:06 PM by Porcupine
I mean aside from Sabra and Shatila and the shelling of Beruit and missile attacks on apartment buildings in the Gaza strip, or running over peace activists with bulldozers, it's never happened that Israeli Defense Forces kill innocents that are not responsible for any violence agianst Israeli citizens.

It's never happened before. Israel is an Apartheid state. I would say worse things but they would be censored.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Come on Porcupine...
you don't have to worry...you're among lots and lots of friends here...and some fiends as well.

Go right ahead and accuse the Israelis of anything you want. It's OK, we can take it...we've survived over 5000 years ealing with it and we are fairly good at parrying thrusts.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Deleted message
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #40
63. Actually...
I'm an American Citizen.

My family was utterly destroyed in the Holocaust. Am I allowed to mention that on this Board? Or is that unfair, since bringing up the Holocaust is considered peh-peh.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Deleted message
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #66
73. first of all,
as a professional academic, which in my book means that you collect a check from an institution which pays you to teach and/or do research including but not limited to: pre-school teacher/aide, high school gym teacher, or Emeritus Professor at the Institute of Advanced Studies at Princeton, you will I am certain understand that you are aware that people may have differing viewpoints concerning specific issues and still be political partisans with respect to the so-called 'Big-picture'. One of the facts concerning my participation at DU is that I consider myself second to none in my work for the DemocratIC (note the deliberately capitalized letters - I do not wish anyone to believe that I'm 'infiltrating' this board) Ticket in 2004 in Philadlephia and here at DU. Those who have read my posts over the years, including the blog and posts on my dinner with Ambassador Wilson prove my bona fides, as it were. I include this because the Arabist posters on DU are congealed in a fight to destroy Israel utterly, and will stop at nothing to invalidate people with my viewpoint.

You may deny this in the usual refexive knee-jerk reaction, but the fact is that Israel faces extinction if it makes a single significant strategic mistake. Make no mistake: there will be no cease-fire if they would be over-run by the Arab armies, or the militant Gazans or Hezbollah. Gneocide would be the word of the day and I can only imagine the posters here cluck-clucking away at number one, how the Israelis deserved it for their past sins, and number two, how it might be an over-reaction, but understandable.

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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #63
74. I've discovered that whole families
in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Kurdistan, Russia, several African nations, Cambodia etc etc etc.... have been utterly destroyed in experiencing their own Holocausts.
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. Israeli's are NOT Jews. Some Israeli's are arabs, some arabs....
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 02:24 PM by Porcupine
are Jews, and a great many Jews are NOT Israelis.

Israel is a political entity occupying stolen land. To persist they resort to standards of behavior generally frowned upon by civilized people. Eventually the people of the middle east surrounding Israel will have matching technology. Eventually the U.S. will quit subsidizing Israel as we have major problems of our own to deal with.

Then the people of Israel can make amends or face the wrath of their neighbors. They can't eat their nukes. And all the professional Israel boosters on the net won't help one bit.




edit: added taunt.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. Deleted message
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #36
48. So much propaganda...
...so little substance.
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. Good thing there's no pro-war, pro-Israel propaganda on CNN, NPR
ABC, CBS, CNBC, FOX, MSNBC, C-SPAN, FOX, Cleal Channel & PBS.

To listen to the news you'd think that there were no Lebanese who could speak good english. Meanwhile every spokes-clone for Israel sounds like Prince Charles. How is that?

News readers spew that the "war was started by Hezbollah" without a moments hesitation or rebuttal from the arab side. How is that? My favorite is that the capture of 2(two) soldiers in uniform somehow justifies bombing an occupied apartment building.

Nope. No propaganda around here.

To be fair the Hezbollah tossed their mostly useless rockets into civilian areas in Israel. They might have killed 1 Israeli (mostly soldiers) for every 100 Lebanese (mostly civilians) killed.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Deleted message
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. There was a war. One side killed far more civilians than the other.
The side (side A) that killed the most civilians also destroyed roads, bridges, airports, hospitals, water supplies and other neccesities of a modern economy.

The items destroyed had only tangential relationships to the people whom side A's representatives claimed they were fighting. They did not immediatly reduce the ability of one side to kill people on the other nor were they likely to. Side A's weapons were known to have very precise targeting. They could kill for example: a single car full of civilians. Targeting of civilians was documented and admitted to. Side A also directed said civilians to abandon their homes or be killed.

Side B killed civilians also. They used rockets fired into a country that had little ability to target anything. Most caused only property damage and did not impair the ability of side A to obtain the neccesities of life. Side B only briefly intruded on side A's territory. The majority of people killed by side B's actions were soldiers.

No propoganda needed. Just the facts. One side deliberatly killed more civilians with foreknowledge and malice.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. and that is not "genocide," that is war...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. Deleted message
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wordpix2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #68
72. no, the use of Lebanese CHILDREN as human shields is genocidal.
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 04:11 PM by wordpix2
But this is the way Hezbollah "fighters" like to conduct their operations---let the innocents take their hits.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #72
89. Deleted message
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #72
99. Military placing children in artillery positions? You mean like this?






Photo caption: Israeli girls write messages on a shell at a heavy artillery position near Kiryat Shmona, in northern Israel, next to the Lebanese border, Monday, July 17, 2006.(AP Photo/Sebastian Scheiner)
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #99
103. If that's not kiddy war porn I don't know what is. That is SICK!! n/t
.
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #61
126. Just out of curiosity
Is "side A" England and "side B" Nazi germany? Because your description fits fairly well, with the possible exception of the targeting capabilities of "Side A"'s weapons.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #56
71. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #56
78. You are very wrong. There may be what you call "Anti-Israeli" sentiment
here on DU, but it's clear that 90% of those have no problem with "Israelis", just their horrific actions(Actions which have demonstrably caused more death, destruction, suffering, and loss of live-lihood than any of the certainly horrible and definitely spectacular actions of those opposed to Israel.). You counter with "but they need to do these things to survive", and we say no, they most certainly do not. Next thing we're all anti-semitic, Israeli haters? Please. That makes no sense and is extremely insulting.

Don't expect people to try and find understanding if you won't even look for it yourself.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. No. I am actually quite correct.
I could post the word "Israel" in the GD and a feeding frenzy would develop, so deep is the bigotry here against Israel.

"Don't expect people to try and find understanding if you won't even look for it yourself." When it comes to Israel, many here don't try to understand, they just "hate."
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. No one here hates Israel. You couldn't be more wrong.
If you can't see anything wrong is what Israel did in Lebanon, then you must open your eyes. Then you will see.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. Oh, but there are!
Maybe if you opened your eyes, you would see it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. no, the anti-Israel hate is what is disgusting.
Your strawmen fall very short. I have never said all criticism of Israel is bigotry. I don't "spew" "...accusations of bigotry and antisemitism every time someone criticises Israel's policies."

Some here are so blinded by their hate of Israel, that nothing positive about Israel can be posted without disgusting comments being made.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. so what's the point of obsessing about it in a thread about...
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 06:06 PM by mike_c
...Hassan Nasrallah's statement that he regrets the hostilities? There are in fact many positive things one can say about Israel-- start a thread about them and be prepared to defend your perspective if necessary. Or introduce them here if they're germane to the OP. But this thread is about what Nasrallah said, and has included discussion about Israeli actions that have been widely condemned. What did you expect in that context?

Quite simply, you will encounter lots of sentiment opposing Israel's actions here and throughout the world. Dismissing that sentiment as simple "bigotry" won't achieve much beyond shutting down dialog that MIGHT become productive if you give it a chance.

on edit-- look at you response in #42 below-- that's derision, not discussion. How do you expect folks to react to that?
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Not obsessing, point out some things.
"There are in fact many positive things one can say about Israel-- start a thread about them and be prepared to defend your perspective if necessary." Really? You mean like posting about the first Israeli to win the doubles tournament at Wimbledon?

"Dismissing that sentiment as simple "bigotry" won't achieve much beyond shutting down dialog that MIGHT become productive if you give it a chance." Yet another strawman.

"on edit-- look at you response in #42 below-- that's derision, not discussion. How do you expect folks to react to that?" So? Others in the thread posted things similar. It wasn't meant to spur discussion, it was my opinion to the latest bullshit being spewed by the Hizb'allah leader.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #86
111. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #111
112. .
:crazy:

I never called you "scum." I don't know that I have ever typed that here. In what thread are you referring? I somehow magically changed the "rules" of posting? :WTF: are you talking about?! Personal attacks have always been against the rules. So this "alleged" attack on you had nothing to do with any rule changes.

The rest of your "post" doesn't warrant discussion, as it is nothing more than a strawman.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. Deleted message
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #113
114. The rules didn't change with me.
Since I joined TWO years ago, it has never been allowed to call someone anti-Semitic, or racist, or anything along those lines! The rule was in place before I joined.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #114
122. Deleted message
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #122
123. I guess that is why they titled it:
"ATTN: We're Returning To Our Previous Middle East Conflict Rules" The same rules that were in effect before I joined.

:eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #123
124. Deleted message
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #124
125. Apparently they were...because they were in place long before I joined.
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #83
92. I see many charges of bigotry as a response to criticism of actions.
They seem to be repeatedly leveled for criticism of specific ACTIONS. They even seem to be leveled when the post simultaneously criticizes actions of Israeli's enemies.

I don't see anybody here excusing the killing of Israeli civilians. I do see posts her justifying the killing of Lebanese civilians.
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poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #79
97. Without some factual information, your statements sound like
the exact same emotional but baseless comments we here at DU spend most of our time debunking.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
42. BWAHAHAHAHA!!!
:rofl:

What did he think? Maybe he thought he'd get a balloon bouquet and singing telegram?! :rofl:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
85. ANALYSIS: Nasrallah is still in charge
Edited on Sun Aug-27-06 06:12 PM by bemildred
In a calm, almost polite voice, Hassan Nasrallah discussed the strategic mistake he made. In a rare interview to a female reporter of New TV, he said that had he known that the result of the abduction of the two soldiers would have resulted in war, he would not have ordered the raid. Not only was the planning problematic, Nasrallah admitted, but also its execution. The plan was for a "clean" abduction, but an unexpected clash occurred at the site of the attack.

However, was there really a mistake in his assessment or an effort to correct the past in retrospect? The answer to this question is important because it deals with the link between the initiation of the war and the role of Iran and Syria in that decision.

Because, if Nasrallah erred in his assessment, and was not at all interested in the outbreak of the war, then there is no basis for the claim that the raid was meant to offer a distraction to the international community from the pressure they imposed on Iran and Syria.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/755361.html
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allemand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
87. Good summary of the interview here:
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2006/08/nasrallahs-interview-on-new-tv.html

BTW, your quote is not correct:

"Hezbollah chief Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah has said he would not have ordered the capture of two Israeli soldiers if he had known it would lead to such a war."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5291420.stm


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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-27-06 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #87
91. Thanks, I hadn't seen that. nt
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
119. Hope it was worth it!
Dumbass.
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Tight_rope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
121. I still say Israel "OVER REACTED"!
I blame both sides for this 37 days world tragedy. This 37 day war did not just affect Lebanon and Israel, it affected the world.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
127. Locking.
This thread has seriously degenerated into a flamefest.
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