US accused of provoking shootout in Samarra

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1069493643394

Six months ago, following the accidental shooting by US troops of unarmed wedding guests in the central Iraqi town of Samarra, locals were upset but willing to give coalition forces a chance at making things right.

"We asked them, 'Don't shoot the children, we have no problem with you'," Mohammed Mahmoud Ali, a 38-year-old local, said yesterday. But in the intervening months there has been a sea change in attitudes in the town, a change that yesterday led dozens of young men to express support for the "mujahideen" who took on an American convoy that rolled into town on Sunday to exchange Iraqi currency. In the ensuing firefight, which US troops say was the largest battle to have been fought with resistance fighters since end of the war last April, US troops are reported to have killed 54 "enemy personnel", wounded 22 and captured one in Samarra.

"Saddam Hussein killed the jihad inside us," said Qasim Mohammed, a young man in a red bedouin scarf standing yesterday in the street in the town. "But we have to thank Bush and Blair for bringing the spirit of the jihad back to our youth."

Eighty-year-old Khalaf Mohammed, his hands and feet still caked in blood from shrapnel wounds, vowed revenge from his hospital bed yesterday: "Take me from my bed and I'll fight," he said.
<snip>

Winning hearts and minds.

I still can't understand why somebody would throw
a stone at a tank, in the middle of a firefight.

http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Special%20Reports%20Hack.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=92&rnd=16.346899020788562

Samarra was just a rolling firefight thru the town.
Used to coverup Spanish deaths and cheerup Xmas
shoppers. Notice how quickly it's vanished from
news.


"They assured me that there was still a tight
hold on the information, that conditions on the
ground were as positive as positive could be,"
he said afterward.

 
President Bush is eating in my undisclosed
location (UPDATE: Undisclosed location is
IRAQ!)

      Posted by ChiefKujo
On News/Activism 11/27/2003 7:37 AM PST
with 1,976 comments

Eyes on ^ | 271830(C)NOV03 | ChiefKujo
President Bush secretly landed an hour ago
and is currently eating Thanksgiving dinner at
my undisclosed location. Anticipate a press
release after he takes off. ChiefKujo
     
 

"I still can't understand why somebody would throw
a stone at a tank, in the middle of a firefight."

They also throw their shoes at tanks.

Remember the ending of Private Ryan and Hanks shooting panzer with a pistol? Same thing, show of bravery. Not very smart as in effective killing, but affects the moral of both the enemy and the good guys. If and when the resistance fighters start acting smart and brave at the same time, the enemy is in trouble. But... that has happened already, and is only increasing...

Or are a lot of posts here about this disgusting? Many posters seem unhappy the American troops weren't slaughtered. Whatever happened to "support the troops"? :eyes:

They were attacked by hostile troops. Did you want to see Al Gore and John Kerry die in Vietnam when they were attacked by hostile troops? Why do you think so little of our soldiers?

Whatever happened to wanting to "bring the troops home safely"? Reading over the threads in the last few days, it seems a good number of posters just want them all to die. Not one post has been relating to their well being.

Maybe I'm on crack, but what I'm reading here is damn unsettling. I don't like the war in Iraq but I sure as heck don't think killing American troops is A-OK, and want to see them return home safely.

Appearently, my opinion isn't shared by anyone else.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

That's just my opinion and my reaction after reading a number of posts here on DU about the Samarra battle.

Go and read any of the number of threads here on it, all I see is troop and Bush bashing. Now Bush bashing is something I can fully get behind, but come on.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=246831

That's the original thread. Read it and tell me what you think the jist of the replies are. Not a single post related in any way to our troops well being, but a good number demonized them.

What's so wrong with not thinking our troops are evil and wanting them to come home?

It's just the boys got stuck in a rotten situation. Just like Viet Nam.
Do you have any more threads that back up your statement.

They were attacked by hostile troops

they were not. Iraq does not have "troops". It also did and does not have WMD, an airforce,a navy, a suberbly equipped military, tanks or humvees , nuclear weapons, or a jolly old friendly relationship with Osama. Our troops were attacked by Iraqi resistance fighters-in much the same way that the French resistance attacked the Germans who occupied their country-who are not amused and not thrilled at the Bush occupation of their country because they are being treated like shit. This can all be traced right back to the ineptitude of bush and his warmongers. He chose to attack and invace unilaterally, has gone begging all over the place--found no one that will support him, has installed Halliburton and other large corporations who are his buddies, into the oil fields and could care less about the Iraqi civilian--he has been emasculated by Bush.

This is what our troops are killing--a people in angst and their children, who have been thrust into the position of defending their homeland against this illegal war by a coward of a man who just happened to coup an election and is now a loose canon on the world. His occupation of Iraq has been a total failure and what needs to be done right now is bring those boys and girls home--instead of sending them out on these missions only to wish for headlines llike this that show we are "winning" --we are not "winning" anything. The resistance will only get stronger the more tactics like this are employed and the more children and their mothers are slaughtered.

All Bush wants to do is install his rich buddies there and then he wants to go back to either Crawford,Camp David or Kennebunkport and just be damn frat boy again. It was so nice being a cheerleader and that is after all what he likes and does best--note how he so easily slipped into that role when he had Thanksgiving dinner--err, well served a plate of mashed potatoes to some poor, but grateful grunt, in his most recent stage spectacle. He wants to cheerlead, go on campaigning and raise millions of obscene dollars from those same buddies, because that is after all, what determines his success as a president, He then only wants to enjoy a few beers with his frump-o-lump and his other companion, condoleeza, who is always willing to have a beer with the guy.

For being so direct and eloquent. I was starting to think that ALL Americans were liars, but one honest woman is worth a nation of brainwashed sheep-types. Stay honest and be blessed in all you do by the truth you speak. Sincerely, Akita Mata

Hello Frangible
Please read Marianne's post and see if her attitude is one that says she is
unhappy the American troops weren't slaughtered

This is so ridiculous to even suggest that ANY of us (I actually mean ANY) wish for the deaths of our children, our neighbor's children, our relatives and friends and our fellow countrymen.
They didn't sign up to protect Halliburton.
They don't want to die to help the Village idiot with a fake Texas accent(some Ivy League Conneticut born flunkee bastard).

I wonder each day if my next door neighbor's kid will come ever home.
And if he does will he have his legs and arms?

What type of thinking equates opposition to baybee bush and his an unlawful invasion with wishing the Iraqis kill U.S. Soldiers, National Guard and Reserves?????

I think I speak for each and every one of us here at D.U when I say we all want ALL American Troops to arrive home alive and in one piece.

This month was the highest casualties of any month and it is going to get worse.
http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx
Bring our Troops home now is the TRUE slogan that SUPPORTS our TROOPS.
************************************

This is a board that has also many members outside US, and transnational dialogue is encouridged here. There are
people who have strong patriotic feelings and nationalistic identities, people without any patriotic feelings with only cosmopolitan identities, and everything between, people with shifting
prior identities and multiple identities.

When the US leadership tells the rest of the world: "You are with us or against us" and "Bring it on" even the most pacifist and cosmopolitan people can feel tempted by this baiting. I have a close friend, extremely smart, extremely sensitive and empathic person, a white, protestant Finn without any military education, who allmost had to be tied down to stop him from going to Iraq to fight against the US invaders.

The enemy of international law, justice, and the common interests of human kind is the US, the Corporate Empire, and the American and other soldiers who are fighting for that empire. Those individuals have no and should have no obligation to obey the illegal orders, start wars, invade countries and kill other people because the Empire tells them so. They are pawns, stupid and ignorant, and I feel sorry for them, but being stupid and ignorant does not mean freedom from Karma. But as long as they obey the orders, they are enemy of justice, obstacle to building better world, they are the bad guys. Which doesn't mean there are not bad guys elsewhere. Actually I'm also bad guy, and almost everybody else is a bad guy.

We are condemned to just causing more suffering as long as we think in terms of 'good' and 'bad' or "our guys" and "their guys" and not in terms of brothers and sisters and what kind of perception and action can diminish suffering the most effective way. Making it happen instead of just complaining and projecting negative feelings.

I have spoken.

A very articulate, honest analysis of what is so terribly wrong with this Iraq fiasco. You hit all the nails on the head with your piece. "Support the troops" is just a vague phrase that in reality means nothing to most of us. What do any of us here at DU actually "do" to support the troops unless we know someone personally who is there? The best thing we can do is keep up the pressure and remain outspoken about how we feel about this administration and not cower and keep all this strictly confined to democratic underground's website. We can get this idiot out of office and we have to be willing to say all of this out loud, over and over again, and display bumper stickers and signs once the Democratic nominee is in place!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

But about the beer, isn't Bush a teetotaler? (he probably should go to AA meetings, not church, if he wants to stay sober).

Either your reading something that's not in that thread or your making shit up. Either way, you are being incredibly dishonest. There's no troop bashing in that thread that I saw. No one's calling for the death of our troops. Lot's of analyzing and questioning of what really happened. But nothing disgusting. I see lot's of people merely dealing w/ the reality that our troops are in a bad situation and not acting in the best way all the time. Sorry, but slaughtering civilians is not a good thing, no matter who does it.

It seems you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. How about some evidence from that thread of troop bashing.

and you critisize us?
interesting -- not .

That's a strong maybe. :eyes:

situation. They must feel they're in a nightmare - the insurgency spreads across more of the Iraqi population; military brass are accusing the local police forces we helped train of "disinformation" ; rotation home for some has been pushed back not once, but twice; an 80 year old man is quoted as willing to fight US troops (notice it's almost always a "US" occupation not "coalition" occupation) - well, it is a nightmare, and likely to foster more mistakes on the part of US personnel on the edge and reprisals from a population increasingly on the edge.....I hope the UN is able to step in, take the American face off Iraqi Freedom II, and let our troops come home.

if the UN bombing was allowed by the US, cuz they wanted Iraq all to themselves? I guess that's pretty far-fetched, but it flashed through the minds of some of us where I was when it happened and just goes to show how surreal this war & administration looks to most of us..

Rummy definitely wants to keep the UN and those State Department types out of any position of authority in Iraq or ME policy. I think he and the neocons may lose this gambit.

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

Have you noted the indiscriminate firing at the neighborhoods where the attack occurred? Have you noted the strange reports: exact numbers (54 dead, 22 wounded) without any recovery of bodies? Have you read the account by a U.S. soldier who was in the fight, about how the policy of indiscriminate firing was only making things worse?

And who on here has said they wished Americans had died? I have seen no such comment on the board.

So, yes, it IS just you.

but we also don't beleive in killing little children. If you want to see what I am talking about, click on the following: or 1438 or 1434

The US is accused of provoking the shootout in Samarra.

The article point to the change of heart these locals have had:

But in the intervening months there has been a sea change in attitudes in the town, a change that yesterday led dozens of young mento express support for the "mujahideen" who took on an American convoy that rolled into town on Sunday to exchange Iraqi currency.

That seems to validate the troops statement on the high number of attackers there were.

Even Samarra's US-appointed police chief, Ismail Mahmoud Moh-ammed, told the Financial Times that US forces had gone too far in "provoking" the town, and said they should stay out.
"Were the French happy under the Nazis?" he asked. "It is the same thing here."

Seems we still are not working well together with the police we have appointed. Read elsewhere that there is suspicions that the police tipped off the "insurgents".

Here's where it gets fuzzy for me.

Gen Kimmitt said several of the dead had been wearing uniforms "consistent with" those of Fedayeen Saddam commandos, which included a black face scarf and a shoulder patch. Five US soldiers were lightly injured in the battle.

However, US and Iraqi reports differred sharply. Mr Mohammed, the police chief, said that only six Iraqis had been killed in the clashes, along with one Iranian pilgrim.

He accused US troops of "firing randomly" on Iraqi civilians after they had been ambushed "by one or two people". He said 54 Iraqis had been injured.

Think we can safely assume from the Iraqi witnesses and the one soldiers posting that was linked that Gen Kimmitt's Fedayeen story is doo-doo.

The numbers quoted by each side are certainly questionable. The one or two people - what about the dozens of young men in that earlier paragraph.

The locals accuse to US of provoking the shootout, it seems to me the troops were goaded into blasting civilian areas by a handful of insurgents. The end result is the same, we are loosing the hearts and minds of the civilians. It is their impressions that are most important right now. This Iron Hammer crap is NOT working and we need to seriously get on the incompetence of the leadership on the stupid war.