Chinese military pressures Taiwan (war on the horizon?)

Chinese military pressures Taiwan

BEIJING, China (AP) -- China would not be swayed by the threat of an Olympic boycott or condemnation from the international community if it decided to attack Taiwan, a Chinese general has said.

The comments were published as China's Premier Wen Jiabao prepares to visit Washington.

They add the military's voice to increasingly aggressive Chinese warnings over what Beijing says is a push by Taiwanese President Chen Shui-bian to declare formal independence -- a step that the communist government says would lead to war.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/east/12/04/china.taiwan.ap/index.html

hey why not, it's pre emptive war. Taiwan has a few mass graves and we're sure they have WMD!!! ATTACK!!!!

I have every reason to believe that this will end in a fight. The problem is that we have promised to defend Taiwan.

With a election year looming, and the military stretched far too thin as it is, not even the neocons would risk war with China. My prediction is they'll hang the Taiwanese out to dry and Taiwan will get squashed like a grape.

On the other hand, there is the little matter of all those wonderful American goods that say "Made in Taiwan."

Either way, a Taiwan-China conflict would be bad news for all of us.

:scared:

Have you gone to a $1 store lately? Or to a toy store? Or to ANY store?

I would rather defend them than let China conquer a free people.

that we are over stretched. Plus, I am not sure if I am for war with China.

And I don't want a war with China either. Who does? But I don't want them conquering Taiwan either and they need to udnerstand that the two go hand in hand.

in our One China policy.

I have no doubt about what we will do when our Texas or Hawaii want to declare independence. Remember our Civil war, why there was the bloody civil war?

I think most of 1.3 Billion Chinese people thinks that same way, and I have no doubt about what they will do.

Of course we will defend Taiwan, but at what cost, when the Chinese will sacrifice everything for Taiwan. Will you? Will We?

All we recognize is that if China turns democratic and the Taiwanese wish to join THAT nation, then we'll be OK with it. Otherwise all we do is a facade to keep China happy.

The problem is that China did nothing about it when it happened. Largely because they couldn't. Nevertheless, it has gone from being a rebellion to a fact in 50+ years. If Hawaii or Texas tried secession, they would be squashed immediately and it would not become fact.

Yes, I am willing to put my life at risk for the people of Taiwan. I think most Americans are willing to do so to defend a free nation.

I hope most Americans think the same as you to defend Taiwan, while risking the loss of dominance around the world. Be sure to enlist now to join the fight for defending Taiwan. I have an omen that tension will rise considerably before the election in next March.

At least I will see what cost I have to pay.

Good luck to you!
God bless our troops in Iraq!

But I have a strong belief in fighting for freedom. Maybe that comes from the hundreds of thousands of Americans who gave their lives giving my ancestors and I our freedom.

I don't think China is stupid enough to push this to a war. If they do, the war to attack Taiwan will be quick. If they decide to expand the conflict to Korea or elsewhere, that would be much more complicated.

Now 90% Iraqi people like us very much, with the rest 10% hating us living abroad. Iraq is now a paradise for all of us to visit and enjoy.

Between being a dumb ass invader and preventing another nation from doing the invading.

Do we recognize Taiwan as an independent nation?
Tell me who recognizes Taiwan as a nation?

Same as Quebec or Hawaii, if they want independence.

And yes, it is invading. Ask the Taiwanese what THEY'D call it.

Not the same as Quebec or Hawaii because this happened a couple generations ago. By that definition, a lot of nations can get carte blanche to go invade. Russia could invade all over the place and reform the old Soviet Union. India or Pakistan could invade the other. Britain and France could attack almost anybody because they used to rule.

History will soon give us definitive answer in a year or two.

You do not think we invaded Iraq, while saying invade Taiwan.

It is just like saying "Black is white, Good is bad".

We DID invade Iraq and China would be invading Taiwan.

And we recognize Taiwan through treaty of defense.

at whatever cost.

Why not?
We are such a great country that loves freedom, (forget the patriot act).

We need to make it very clear to them so there is no confusion.

Thanks for your love of Taiwan

and do not forget to enlist now, since the train may leave town soon.

To keep Taiwan free, and I agree.

Although, considering the Bush administration, I think if Taiwan wants the US to intercede come a Chinese invasion, They better find oil under that Island real quick.

The Bushes have a habit of turning their eyes away from Chinese human rights violations... Something too do with $$$

Just wondering if this was the group you were referring to as having given their lives in the hundreds of thousands for your freedom.

Thanks.

We recognize a free Taiwan can join with a free China. Other than that, it is all marketing.

The reason for our bloody Civil War was that as soon as the South seceded, the North said that was wrong, raised an army and stopped them.

This is 50+ years later and the facts on the ground are two separate and distinct nations and cultures.

I don't know the cost of a war. It depends on how stupid China is. But I would defend it and so would most Americans.

There was talk of French and English involvement, especially after the Trent Affair, but Lincoln calmed that problem and it went away.

Sure, England and France built blockade runners for the South, but that's about it other than trade.

The BFEE encourages the Tiawanese to feel independant with talk of defending democracy, etc. Then China has to reiterate its natural and proper nationalism. Then Tiawan feels threatened has has to buy billions in weapons. And if the weapons are used, all the better so they have to buy more.
China can never successfully invade Tiawan. Formosa is too easily defendble. But a short little war, to put China in it's place and generate more weapons sale, it is exactly what they are trying to provoke.
Wise up - and remember these people are just like Hitler.

and don't forget who's drivin our bus

peace

I know that most Chinese people remember clearly the brutal occupation under Japanese. The relation between the Chinese and Japanese is still icy, since the Japanese does not repent for what they did to China.

Do you know the history Hong Kong and Macau? China was almost broke up by the West and Japan. They do not afraid of war to defend their nation, and I think they will defend their national unity in the case of Taiwan.

I do not know why went to Iraq. In the eyes of Iraqi people, will Bush better than Hitler?

Any type of hostile takeover of Taiwan in East Asia will send ripples throughout East Asia. This includes Japan, Korea, Singapore, Thailand etc.. Many of these countries are already somewhat wary of China's rapidly burgeoning influence, economy and power. Watching China march into Taiwan, one of Asia's famed "Tiger" economies, will create some serious fear and uncertainty in the region. Bear in mind that China is also N.Korea's closest and only friend and you got an interesting recipe for a new order.

They do not and dear not to have war with 1.3 billion Chinese right across their border.

When there is a war, I think it will be mostly us fighting for Taiwan, possibly Japan. But I doubt it.

IF the BFEE manages to stay in power, and China forces the issue, I'd look for some sort of deal to be cut re: Taiwan. There is no way the BFEE would go toe to toe w/ China until they feel they have a strategic containment (which they are far from having).

Given that the BFEE is keenly aware of the dire situation re: peak oil, they could give a rat's ass about any locale that does not have some form of petroleum to be exploited.

China is aware of this as well, recently investing a ton of resources into fuel exploration and exploitation in the Northwest of their country.

I believe that Taiwan will ultimately return to full chinese control, but China's posturing now is simply a matter of making sure that everyone understands this. As stated earlier in this thread, China has a longview of things, and is content to wait for the time when the US will be almost crippled due to oil shortages, making it almost fiscally impossible to wage a prolonged military effort on the other side of the Pacific.

Time will come, perhaps sooner rather than later, when Taiwan will be the last of the US's concerns. China is just establishing and reinforcing their claim to Taiwan until such a time rolls around.

I think the Chinese will employ other methods in order to prevent a declaration of "independence" on the part of Taiwan island. I think it's important for people to say no to war against China. The US has no right to militarily intervene.

He might not as smart as you to recognize the risk in a war with the united 1.3 billion Chinese people.

this is gonna be a fight.
if i were china -- i'd like my odds better if the u.s. were tied up with the iraq/middle east stuff.

And it better be longer if they wish to succeed. They need a better navy and air force to even have a snowball's chance.

since Taiwan's big brother is tied in Iraq and heading for election year.

At Chinese forums, there is overwhelming opinion to use force soon if Taiwan adrift any further.

Anyway, China is not Iraq, it has formidable missiles and large fleet of subs, nukes. Since Taiwan is only about 180 km from mainland, I do not think our fleet will be very close to the Taiwan, in case we want to help.

In other threads, there have been some interesting discussions of China's lack of military ability to send troops across the strait. Yes, China has a nominal navy and air force. If they actually mixed it up with the U.S., they would be crushed.

We do not defeat them in Korea and Vietnam when we have far more superior weapons than today, in relative terms.

We will see what the result will be this time. Chinese consider Taiwan rightfully part of China, while both Vietnam and Korea are only its neighbors. I expect they will be much more determined in the case of Taiwan.

Good luck to our future adventure against China.

It is a hell of a lot different fighting a defensive war from an island than it is on land.

On land, force of numbers counts for a lot. But for that force of Chinese numbers to be useful, they have to get to Taiwan and that would be hard as hell in wartime.

I think Britain could probably defend Taiwan against China right now, much less the U.S.

Now let me ask you. Do you think it would just be the U.S.? How long before Japan and South Korea realize that China is trying to take over the entire region?

than the threat from China. They learned this from their history.

Is there any instance that China want to take over the entire region?
Remember in the Mongol empire, the chinese are enslaved as well by the Mongols.

over 2 months of bombing... that war was won without a boot on the ground and 0 casualties.

china has a staging area that is practically invulnerable to any taiwan responce.

it is clear tawain would be CRUSHED with out international intervention and THAT is the most dangerous varible in the whole equation.

peace

will defeat China, before they even have the time to launch their missiles.

Hope it is not just his wishful thinking.

I do not see what we will gain in war with China over Taiwan,
instead I see huge loss for us.

Face it, our armed forces have it. In a stand-up fight, they are the best going. Iraq is not that kind of war. This would be.

Yes, we lose if there is a war. So does China. But we lose more if we stand by and let Taiwan be conquered.

They have continental missiles, nukes, nuclear subs, new and sophisticated warplanes, and a strong determination of 1.3 Billion Chinese people.

Destroying our carriers is one of their main excerise goal, in case we intervene.

Anyway, China is not a country like Iraq, where we can crush them whenever and whereever we want.

a conflict between the U.S. and China would be DEVESTAING not only to both sides but most likely the world yet you continue to comment in juvenial psedo macho quips about a possible war between our two countries.

BAKAYARO

peace

This is what has puzzled me for the longest time. The Re-unification of Hong Kong was nice, because many of the HK residents were enthusiastic about it and there was much celebration and fanfare.

The issue of Taiwan is another matter. That China wants re-unification is not surprising, but by force? I mean, what value to China is a decimated island slightly smaller than Maryland and Delaware combined with very little natural resources, and its entire population despising its invading neighbor? At the moment, Taiwan has a good relationship with China, doing a tremendous amount of business that benefits both Taiwan and China. How will a movement toward official independence change this scenario?

Other than from a military standpoint- i.e. someplace to plant nice fat missiles -, or an issue of "pride", I don't see the value of an invasion. Taiwan's value lies in its human resource, meaning business and industry. You bomb the area out and kill its people, or draw their hatred and all you are gonna have is a tiny resort island off the coast of China. Rest assured it will ruin the Taiwan economy.

So what is it? Pride? A chance to test the military?

out of Taiwan. A naval blockade with missles to shoot down any transport planes and to stop any ships from entering or exiting any Taiwanese ports. They don't need to attack at all. America would have to be the one to attack and I do believe that would create a problem with Russia.

My money is on the U.S. Navy if China tried that. The blockade would be brief and China would be forced to back down or be have their navy crushed.

Since Taiwan is so close to Minland China, short and middle range missile will cover a death zone of at least 500 km around Taiwan.
I do not think we will dear to enter the Taiwan strait at war time.

I do not know whether we can defend our fleet when there are 20 missiles attacking carrier from different angles simultaneously.

China also has a large fleet of subs to deter possible intervention.
I think China will threat to use nukes against Korea or Japan if they allow us to use their base.

Without such bases, our fleet will be weakened considerably.

Missiles come from bases. If you think we wouldn't attack bases threatening our ships, you are incorrect. Also remember that our fleet could be away from Taiwan and still protect it from the air.

As for the Navy vs. Navy, I'll still stick by my previous estimation that our Navy and subs could make mincemeat of theirs at this point.

If China escalates it to threatening North Korea or Japan with nukes, then they could easily end the world. I doubt they are ready for that.

If we want to go that way.

I once remember one leader saying, "China will not end, when its men can grow food and women can bear child."

Do not think we are safe across the Pacific ocean, they have manned spacecraft now with our fleet grounded. They can easily deliver nukes over to LA, NY, etc, if we attack China.

I doubt we are ready for that, just for the tiny Taiwan.

The end of civilization.

but, clearly nations have made foolish underestimations of the actions of others. Look to Poland in WWII and you see that.

Nevertheless, defend Taiwan we should and defend Taiwan we will.

Otherwise you will lose the opportunity to die for Taiwan.

For starters.

Then you are the most evil people I can imagine, no better than Bush.

There is no reason for you to stay out the fight for Taiwan independence!

Your comments have now reached the level of the ridiculous.

I really hate people who think the US military is invulnerable in any given situation. It' really immature from a military perspective.

It comes down to which side is willing to pay the highest cost. I think in this situation it is the Chinese. Historically the Chinese have been willing to take high levels of casualties in war.

Never mind the fact that if we were dumb enough to put one of our fleets in the middle of that bloodbath China would nuke it if need be.

Sorry but you over estimate Americans willingness to shed blood in foreign wars. I am happy to say.

But defending an island is a lot easier than conquering a nation and fighting a war against guerrillas.

If China nuked an American fleet, it would result in several Chinese cities disappearing -- under any presidency.

Again, China does NOT want to fight a war with the U.S. That's why they need to understand it is precisely what will happen if they attack.

In the meantime, we need to continue boosting Taiwan's defense.

I don't overestimate American willingness to prevent a democratic nation from being destroyed by a totalitarian one. I am also pleased that my sig line is so appropriate for the occasion.

I hear this from my Taiwanese wife every day. China has no historical right to Taiwan, it was not historically part of the Chinese empires. It was an island originally populated with polynesian type people -- strategically located within striking distance of Japan and other countries -- that was taken over by Japan and China, etc. Most of the older people speak Japanese as well as Chinese and Taiwanese. They have their own political system, even their own dialect for christsake. The One China policy is just pure bullshit, it is not based on the will of the people in Taiwan (most of whom hate the mainland Chinese) and it does not reflect history. It is just greed and power, plus the island is very strategic for China, it is like a forward stationary aircraft carrier. If Bush was serious about democracy he would protect Taiwan, not support China. He'll fold on this issue since he is such a pussy.

1.Do you know why Taiwan speak Japanese?
Answer: Taiwan was ceded to Japan when China was defeated around 1895, returned back to China after end of WWII in 1945. So Japan
occupied Taiwan for 50 years. It is no wonder that many Taiwanese feel much close to Japan than China.

2. Do you know the origin of so called Taiwanese?
The language Taiwanese is just a dialect in China, especially
in the Fujian province across.

It was a malay island colonized by the Dutch in the 1600s, who brought over Chinese workers, then basically a free for all through the 1700s and 1800s, totally out of control, then finally the Chinese decided it was part of their territory, then the Japanese took over in the 1890s. When China went communist, the Chang hi Sheik gov took over the island. My point is this: it is not like the island was a part of the Chinese empire that has broken away after hundreds of years. Bush should support the island's independence, if he supports a separate Palestinian state.

without recognize Taiwan as a free and independent country.

Why does he want to make China happy?
Why does he want to have war with China now?

Please clarify. Thanks.

In 1979, the United States government recognized the People's Republic of China as the sole, legitimate government of all of China.
The US-ROC Mutual Defense Treaty was abrogated in 1980, and neither the Reagan or Bush I administrations took the time to renew it.

In 1979 there was a document called the Taiwan Relations Act, and in
1982(Reagan adminisration)the US-China Joint Communique.

Look them up.

Besides there is no official military alliance between the US and Taiwan. And before we fight for someone else's freedom we had best
make sure that we ourselves are free.

And freedom for the American people under this current administration
is not guaranteed.

And to answer MTR's question I would not fight for the freedom of anyone else until I knew that the freedom of my own people and my
own country was beyond question.

I know, I know, Bushco and corporate greed and all.
But isn't that a possibilty US or worldwide threaten to pull business somehow?
Just a thought.

Since our economy is in such a good shape, and the rapdid rise of dollar value against Euro and Yen, we have enormous weapon in our hand.

So far, it has been all talk, and I think that this time is the same.

Taiwan and China are tremendously intertwined economically. Taiwanese money is funding much of China's economic boom, and even twelve years ago, the major tourist sites were full of Taiwanese tourists.

If China ever got seriously aggressive with Taiwan, all that lovely investment money would disappear.

At this point, China is worried about a "loss of face" if Taiwan declares independence, since it has been claiming for the past 54 years that Taiwan is an integral part of China.

The population of Taiwan is only about 20% descended from mainland refugees, though, and the native Taiwanese (the Malayo-Polynesian aborigines and the Chinese who have lived there for centuries) feel no particular connection to China.

I remember they gave serious warnings before:

1. Before the intervention in Korea
2. Before the clash with Soviet Union, around 1967?
3. Before the clash with India in 1962
4. During the Vietnam war, chinese warned us not to across the 17 degree line. This time we obeyed.
5. Before the conflict with Vietnam

This time maybe, but all depends what will happen before the election next March.

-- but evidence of the tactical blood bath over
Moriarity's visit comes with word that National
Security Advisor Condi Rice had to personally
order Moriarity to read the draft Bush/Hu letter
to Deputy Secretary of State Randy Schriver.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

Moriarty's second proposal is even more worrying.
He proposes the United States declare that it will
not defend Taiwan if Beijing launches a military
attack on the island in response to a "provocation,"
i.e., some action or statement by Taiwan that Beijing
determines moves in the direction of independence.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/447lynce.asp?pg=1

In *'s case, by his own party.

in a all-out war with China.

I think American people will impeach president for a war that brings destruction and ruins to our lovely land of America.

To us, the lost of Taiwan is not the end of world.

To allow a nation to be conquered and lose its freedom to tyranny is to lose freedom for us all.

Germany thought England and France wouldn't fight over Poland either.

They were wrong.

to think that China is ruled by tyranny.

Ask those from mainland China to see how little freedom they have.
Most chinese people know the democracy success in Russia and elsewhere.

The best export of America.

Now that's a new one. Ask the people of various religions -- Christians and such -- in China if they have freedom.

They won't be able to answer, most are in prison.

First of all, I respectfully ask if you might be able to answer this particular post of mine: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=253970&mesg_id=255669&page=|What good to China is a bombed-out island with its entire population despising it?> , since you seem not to have a problem with the concept of forceful reunification.

Second of all, even though I think declaring independence at this point would not be prudent to the Taiwan (specifically because of the threat of China). I would like to think some day that Taiwan might truly be able to make the decision freely - be it independence or reunification - without staring down the barrel of China's gun.

"To us, the lost of Taiwan is not the end of world."

I think its fairly obvious that China taking control of Taiwan through military intervention is not going to end the world, but it does seem a tad unjust and immoral. If we are a country that believes in extending democracy and freedom, then this situation would seem the most obvious case where one would take a stand. I realize thats an idealist point of view, but it makes me sleep better at night to realize that people have the freedom to determine their own fate and policy granted its not harmful to others.

Bush* is such a goddam idiot.

He wastes time trying to swat a fly when there's a tiger creeping up from behind.

As far as Iraq goes- a tiger can kill an elephant if he bites him once every day.

for unification, if Taiwan provokes to inching toward independece, war will inevitably break out.

I think Bushco would make noise and gestures about Taiwan's freedom and China's agression, but at the end of the day he'd leave them for the dogs.

By the very people who voted him in.

Say what you want about the GOP, but they remember their friends.

And of course, our folks in Congress would equally fall all over themselves kick his ass out.

Face it, Americans don't like running away from a fight protecting a little guy.

With the execuse of WMD, he is invading Iraq which he clearly know Iraq does not have any WMD.

While for North Korea, he knows they are strong and have declared WMD. Understandably he dear not invade North Korea.

Considering the fact that China is much more stronger than North Korea, I do not see that he will have the courage to defend Taiwan.
In my opinion, this is the right decision for US all.

1) China invades Taiwan
2) All of the US troups are in Iraq
3) Welcome to the DRAFT
4) bush claims he is off the hook since Taiwan was invaded....

The proper term would be China ATTACKS Taiwan. Actually getting to Taiwan is the crux of the problem and one not easily solved for the Chinese army.

I don't believe anything that comes from CNN news. Until I hear it from a reliable source I'll let it pass un-noticed.

Is it Fox, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, BBC, AP, UPI, AFP?

I have difficulty to find the one that is trustworthy today.