Storm brews as China tackles Bush

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/08/1070732145994.html

When the Chinese Premier, Wen Jiabao, meets the US President, George Bush, in Washington today he will find a notably more restrained leader than the newly elected president of three years ago who vowed to do "all that it takes" to defend Taiwan and offered the island modern destroyers and submarines to protect itself against China.

Mired in Iraq and Afghanistan, and needing Chinese pressure for North Korea to drop its nuclear weapons, Mr Bush and his Administration have been trying to cool the flare-up of tensions over the Taiwan Government's plan to hold the island's first referendum alongside presidential elections in March.

Mr Bush will also try to extract promises from Mr Wen that China will move sooner than its present vague target date to free up its pegged currency - blamed ahead of next year's US elections for the expected $US120 billion ($165 billion) bilateral trade gap this year and a transfer of US factory jobs to China.

...more...

corporatists want to open manufacturing and tech jobs in china.
and what corporatists want -- corporatists get.

;)

It is good that the war threat against China actually is less than it was during the late '90's and beginning of the Bush term. It gives China more time to develop economically to be able to uphold its sovereignty.

My bet is that "Too Stupid to be President"* will trade Taiwan's independence for an agreement with China to stop N. Korea's nuke program. What do you do when China holds half-a-trillion dollars in your Treasury bonds and the dollar is sinking like a rock, and China has a trade surplus with us of $120 billion plus, and you're too stupid to fix any of it? At this point, China is holding all of the marbles. If they start selling Treasury bonds back to us, we will be in even deeper doodoo than we are at present. After all, what does democracy matter when so much money is involved? (sarcasm)



"Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul."
--Thomas Paine

Welcome to DU!

Sorry, even the GOP won't sell Taiwan up the river.

China holds no marbles in that situation. It would be hard for them to conquer Taiwan and much easier to defend it.

I must point out that if China crashes the dollar, they will
be screwing themselves too. The normal thing to do is to try
and dump your holdings quietly so as not to clobber the price.
That may not be possible here, but it is still the case that an
orderly liquidation of their position is to be preferred, hence
they are unlikley to deliberately crash the US economy, more like
a little "warning" or two.

look folks, our newer poster here has it just right. you think the Cabal is in charge of the show? think again. the jig is up and has been since the plane incident, and the debt we're carrying is essentially nothing but mo, mo, mo money for the chinese cabal.
these guys practically invented the functioning pseudo-police state, and they know how to use money to accomplish REAL goals.

IMHO, they are the nation to watch, and the people we've got in charge are Rank Amateurs by comparison. anyone remember that little spy/sex FBI scandal? that went away, like so many other bush scandals, but i think it tells you all you need to know about just how easy it is for the chinese to fool, fake, and fraud our foolish faking frauds in charge.

i just hope that i can learn enough chinese to get by as the sleeping dragon finally awakens.

I don't understand the anti-China stands being expressed. China is not the country with troops on foreign soil, military bases in foreign lands, transnational corporations extracting superprofits from the third world. I just think that we should wish China well in economic development.

I don't think so. China is a totalitarian state that wants to conquer a democracy.

That explanation was simple enough for a Freeper to understand, but a little too simple for the more evolved here at DU.

We have fought Chinese in Korea and Vietnam before.
We know what the war against China will be like.
We recognize Taiwan as part of China. Just like China recognize
Hawaii is part of US. We fight the bloody civil war, when the South want independence.

With China determined to have all-out war if we intervene, I prefer US to stay away from the conflict.

I know, my freedom was won as the result of a war.

As for you comments, fighting a war defending an island is nothing like fighting a land war. It is much easier for the defenders and much harder on the attackers.

Taiwan and Hawaii are nothing alike. Check out the history of Taiwan if you doubt that. China claims it, but that is all. It's not truly part of China and hasn't really been so for 100 years.

If China attacks Taiwan, we should defend it. Thankfully, we will, which is why such an attack is wildly unlikely.

Even if we want to defend Taiwan, it will be very difficult for us due to the short distance from Mainland China. Thousands of short and middle range missiles can take out our fleet in no time.

South Korea and Japan very likely will not allow us to use their base. I bet they will not.

So be prepared.

Do you?

I do not mind sacrifice myself.

I will never join in any war outside of US.
Let alone the war over Taiwan, which I know we will not win.
Since we will be risking to lose the whole world, when we have an all-out war with China.

Since they were not really attacking America?

What are your thoughts on the American Civil War?

How about the Korean War?

WWII a possibility.

Thanks, your credibility is the kind that isn't.

When Japan attacked Peal Harbour, of course, I would join to defend our country.

Basically our FDR took similar stance in this regard.

WWII really broke out when the Nazis invaded Poland, though you could argue earlier.

The U.S. entered the war with the Japanese sneak attack.

So why not Korea? Heck, even the UN approved.

And you never answered about the American Civil War.

You never answered about the American Civil War.

I am not even certain that Taiwan would need any direct US military involvment to defeat a Chinese invasion. China simply lacks the air lift and sealift capacity to land a sizeable force on Taiwan which has a fairly large, well-trained and well-equipped military.

So the issue of what the US would do is really a non-issue since China won't try anything.

N. Korea is, but China is pretty laid back.
You can wander around and do whatever the fuck
you like, for the most part, and nobody cares.
This is just the usual sort of territorial squabble.

Unless you practice religion or advocate democracy? Or maybe just freedom of the press?

Come on.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

China will crush US at the first opportunity. Now, were China to expedite freedom for the Chinese people, maybe I wouldn't hold such an opinion.

The only card we hold is control of cheap oil. I worry how * is to play that card.

For the elites to rule and control our society.

Do you know what is behind the latest democracy revolution in Georgia?
Do you know when the opposition march to the parliament with Rose, they also took gun with them?

From what I have discussed with Chinese students here, the Chinese does not have any love so called democracy. The former popular democracy fighters are despised by Chinese people.

In terms of freedom for Chinese people, they enjoy not less than us.

Do you know * is cracking down on Songs by Enimem?

Democracy is the People deciding the course of their country. While the US democracy has been subverted by the elites because of the sheeple's inattention, it remains the best tool for the People to actually rule.

China is run totally by elites. There is no chance, short of revolution, for the People of China to ever have any semblance of democracy. Call the present Chinese rulers Fascists, Commies, or whatever, you sure can't say they are democratic. There is even a theory out there that the way China subjugates it's people is envied by the PNAC'ers.

I don't know where you get the idea the Chinese people have as much freedom as we do. It just boggles my mind that someone could actually write that.

Is it the democracy you want?

Is Anyone convicted in Enron?

We impeached Clinton for his private misconduct.

Are we going to impeach * for deception of Iraq WMD, resulting in near 450 confirmed death and over ten of thousands disabled service men and women, and tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis?

Why Cheney can hide its dealings with big corporations?

Why we kill 9 Afganistan Children, just because there is a so called torror suspect?

It is just disgusting!

You confuse democracy with the current day to day meanderings. The rulers the sheeple have allowed in office are not for democracy. They are Fascists. They will be removed if I have anything to say about it. And I do, because this is still a democracy and we are posting on Democracy Underground. Do you think a similar-- anti-ruler -- website would be allowed in China?

Otherwise, we agree, it is disgusting.

Know It All that is!

I'm not defending the Chinese government, which has well
documented control issues, but totalitarian means something
on the order of Nazi Germany or the Stalinist USSR, and China is
far from that. If you don't annoy the big shots, they won't
come looking for you, unlike N. Korea where everybody has a
keeper, and the keepers have keepers too.

These days, NK is about the worth thugocracy around. I agree.

That doesn't excuse the Chinese limits on religion, freedom of speech, control of the press, forced abortion, work camps, etc.

I am trying to defend the integrity of the English language.
Totalitarian does not mean simply crappy repressive government, we
have that in the USA. That distinction is my only point.

What would you call it?

Clearly, it's not democracy. You challenge totalitarian. I used thugocracy (which is really made up) for NK. Something like that.

But formalities mean little.

Every REAL American knows that the Freedom we have is actually the Christ-givien Freedom to go Shopping.

Been to China lately? They have a "taste" and skill for trade and making a profit. The major metro centers are all bustling international style cities. Anything goes. You can buy anything you want.

So what if they don't find religion particularly useful for political purposes? Who cares about freedom of speech?

Cynicism off for now...

It's OK whatever the Chineese Gov't does there.

You have to go to Tibet for first hand experience.
Can you rely on the media to get the accurate report?

I know Chinese Prime Minister is visiting US now.
I do not see any coverage from Fox, CNN, MSNBC. Why?
Too often we are getting the wrong impression of China.

and i never went to South Africa or the West Bank, so i guess i can't have an opinion on those places either. Heck, i was never in the ante-bellum South so i guess i have to shut up about slavery and the confederacy, too.

All I want to say is that you need to know the history of Tibet and it current situation. The fate of Tibet can only be determined by Tibet people and the Chinese people.

No there is something I can get behind.

Return Texas, California to Mexico.
We can shout, they can shout. No meaning.

we here in California deserve self-determination.
We are clearly a separate indigenous culture and
deserve our own country.

I remember we have 13 states when our constitution was written.
Now it stands at 50. Did we have Referendum in every state.

Was there a Referendum before the Civil war?
What would it be like if there was a Referendum in the South?

Will we allow Referendum for any state to declare independenc today?

Canada had Referendum, but all Canadian should approve, if Quebec want independence. Recent report indicates that Canada will act,
if Quebec did declare independence.

Why do we not recognize the right of 1.3 billion Chinese people, which we considered sacred?

Pretty much all of it, actually. But that doesn't make it right,
and that doesn't means you have to keep on doing it that way.

Actually, I believe it was the Quebecois that turned it down,
not enough of them were stupid enough to think they would be
better off alone. But they did not have to convince British
Colombia to go along, if I remember rightly.

I am all for the right of the 1.3 billion Chinese people to
determine for themselves how they will be governed, and by
whom. That is what democracy is all about. That certainly
includes the Han as well as the Tibetans and others ethnicities
now trapped in the Chinese empire.

In the eyes of all people in the world, we have now lost our high moral ground. If Tibet people think they are independent, they will rise up and we will see.

I think you are one of those people for the war against Iraq.

I agree with the rest of your statements, although I
would prefer not to see a war between China and Tibet.
That would be a sad situation.

Democracy Democracy Democracy...Er um Ugh did NINE children just get SLAUGHTERED? Er Um DEMOCRACY bring it on. China...cough...cough..cough .....Did I mention DEMOCRACY?

I don't.

The leaders in China also have a problem with freedom.

NONE of us have a problem with freedom. We just aren't buying the quaint idea that the United States owns the patent on it.

Nor are we always perfect with it and nor are we the only ones who practice it.

But freedom is what this thread is all about. It's not about the U.S. It's about Taiwan being free, not conquered by China.

as viewed by lots of people in the world, not as torrorists.

They are trying to free Iraq from our occupation, and prevent from stealing their oil.

You are supporting our * to enslave and steal Iraq, right?
And you want to protect the freedom of Taiwan, why not Iraqi people?

No, I've been against the war in Iraq from the beginning. Now we are stuck there and can't just walk away. But I wouldn't call someone who attacks only soldiers a terrorist.

You said:
"It's about Taiwan being free, not conquered by China."

I am just wondering why you do not recognize the freedom of Iraqi people.

I am happy they are free of Saddam at least and look forward to them being free of foreign intervention in general.

Finding the common ground is a good first step towards rational discourse.

Now. I agree that I would much rather see an independent Taiwan than a Chinese ruled Taiwan. Also that the independent version would be more free. I do not however have the depth of faith you do that the United States in it's current incarnation would be so devout in their defense of Taiwan.

Furthermore, in other parts of this thread you seem to hold up Democracy as the prime example of a free people. I don't agree that this is neccessarily the case. Virtually all forms of government practiced currently contain at their core provisions which are designed to protect and care for the citizens they govern. Note I do not say that those provisions are actually followed nor that they work, merely that they exist. Communism itself was conceived in part as a method of empowering the comman man rather than the ruling elite. In practice Communism seems to often result in corruption and rather totalitarian tactics but they aren't inherent to the concept.

Democracy can be abused just as easily. It is happening right in front of us. You seem to have something approaching blind faith in the democratic system and I fear we will simply have to agree to disagree there.

Not democracy.

Yes, democracy can be abused. So can religion. So can virtue. So can freedom.

None of those thing is perfect and there are always evil people who seek to pervert them.

That said, China doesn't even try for such freedoms.

Check this out:

http://members.cox.net/impunity/endofworld.swf