White Atlanta suburbs push for secession

By DOUG GROSS, Associated Press Writer


ATLANTA - A potentially explosive dispute in the City Too Busy to Hate is taking shape over a proposal to break Fulton County in two and split off Atlanta's predominantly white, affluent suburbs to the north from some of the metropolitan area's poorest, black neighborhoods.

Legislation that would allow the suburbs to form their own county, to be called Milton County, was introduced by members of the Georgia Legislature's Republican majority earlier this month.

Supporters say it is a quest for more responsive government in a county with a population greater than that of six states. Opponents say the measure is racially motivated and will pit white against black, rich against poor.

"If it gets to the floor, there will be blood on the walls," warned state Sen. Vincent Fort, an Atlanta Democrat and member of the Legislative Black Caucus who bitterly opposes the plan. Fort added: "As much as you would like to think it's not racial, it's difficult to draw any other conclusion."

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The former Milton County is now mostly white and Republican and one of the most affluent areas in the nation. Atlanta and its southern suburbs are mostly black, are controlled by Democrats and have neighborhoods with some of the highest poverty rates in America. (Buckhead, a fashionable Atlanta neighborhood of clubs, restaurants and mansions, would remain in Fulton County.)



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070123/ap_on_re_us/atlanta_split

nothing like good old racist segregation!

I hate sharing a country with them.

doesn't share a county with bigots in the North or West.

n/t

Like the African-Americans the rich racists want to avoid.

And there are even some decent whites down here. (Plus the Latinos, Asians, etc.)

Making this all about race oversimplifies the issue considerably, in my opinion. I'm sure there is a racial element for some people, however a _huge_ reason behind this push is money. As the article says:



If they became a seperate county, they keep more tax revenues for themselves. These areas have completely different demographics both in financial status and race, so of course have different demands of their government. They're not satisfied with their county government, so they'd prefer to manage their own affairs. They have a lot of very good reasons to be unhappy with the quality of services and government they are getting in return for their taxes. Ultimatly this is about self government.

As someone living in the lower half, I'd prefer this not happen at all. I'd rather they try to resolve their issues through the current government rather than secede. If anyone wants to learn about the huge back story here, I recommend searching for stories on it in our local media - The Atlanta Journal-Constitution and Creative Loafing.

I believe this fight has been brewing several years. At one time Fulton county was trying to annex Sandy Springs and Alpharetta.

The local government is completely beholden to Disney and the NIMBY assholes in Newport Beach. There are three million people here and maybe 100,000 of them are represented.

I bet Supervisor Chris Norby is still spending most of his waking hours trying to get SNA renamed "The O.C. Airport"

They should put a boundary along the coast and up South Harbor Blvd. and around Disneyland, call it "O.C. County" and turn the rest of us over to L.A. County or even a seperate county all together.

property value. Of course the rich suburbs pay more taxes, their property is worth more.

But the money is still just a veil for the racism.

As a feeling that the residents of North Fulton aren't having their interest served. There is a money drain from north to south and residents in the north don't have the same level of services. Some of those concerns could be met by having the state kick in funding for Grady and MARTA as well as extending the north (train) line of MARTA for people who have to run the GA400 gauntlet.

Those people live there because they don't want to live in Carver Homes or Vine City. That's fine, but that doesn't mean the people in Vine City don't exist. Because that area might be poorer, are we supposed to close their polling locations and stop serving them with child support papers? Not every neighborhood is going to be self-sufficient at all times. We have to be aware of that and take responsibility for dealing with it. This is the essence of progressivism to me. We can't just say "it's somebody else's problem". It's not. It is out community too, all of us.

Having said that, I'm pretty sure it's more of a perception than a reality just by looking at the conditions between the two areas. North Fulton is practically perfect except for the ridiculous unchecked growth that causes problems faster than they can be dealt with.

If only there were more St. Simon's Islands where you have to go on a causeway and pay a toll to get out there. People could just go live there and pretend everybody in the world is rich and successful. a REAL boundary instead of an artificial one.

Fulton county stretches almost 100 miles from north to south, although very skinny in places, the county has the most diverse group of people and businesses of any county in georgia. Inner city, rural, suburban, with more people than 7 states, it's just a lot to ask 7 not-very-well-paid county commissioners to handle, and there has been a long history of corruption (unfortunately, one very southern trait) and mismanagement.

Over the past five years, I've worked with the Fulton county commissioners on a couple zoning matters, and the process has been frustrating because of the huge size of the county, how remote the county commissioners offices are on the south side, how difficult it is for commissioners to really know areas of the whole county. We did win our zoning cases, so I do respect overall the county commissioners collective wisdom.

But here's the main reason why I oppose the split: The school system of Fulton county is in my opinion, much much better than that of Gwinnett and Cobb county. I'm just worried that Milton County would become like a junior version of Cobb County with science textbooks teaching creationism. That's the biggest concern.

I oppose the split. I would imagine that the overwhelming majority of people in North Fulton don't even know why the county is made up like it is. When I talk to people they are amazed that Fulton took over Milton County during the Great Depression. However most are conservative repigs that believe that poor, minorities are BAD, and can't believe that "their" side of the county would have ever had the means to help "our" side of the county! *sigh*

And I agree with you about the schools, we DON'T need another Cobb County'ish school district!

this has nothing to do with racism. The issue is that the city and county representatives have made huge financial blunders at the expense of the northern taxpayers. The northern taxpayers want to have more say regarding the way their tax dollars are spent. If the commissioners represented all of the taxpayers without prejudice then this would not be an issue.

Here in Allen County we are 657.3 sq miles -- We only have 3 County Commissioners

Cook County, Illinois is 945.7 sq miles with a population of 5,303,683

Fulton County population 915,623 while the city is 423,019

I know you stated that Fulton County stretches out to almost 100 miles and is skinny. I wonder how remote it is for Cook County considering that they have tremendous traffic congestion which would be a hindrance in getting from one place to another.

Possible solutions --- Have county commissioners assigned to sections of the county. Maybe 2 or 3 sections. Have more than 7 commissioners. If there are 3 districts maybe have 3 commissioners in each district.

If they are really underpaid then they need to be paid more. But that not be a necessity if there are more commissioners.

Georgia has more counties than any other state, I believe. Probably too many and terribly inefficient, I know, but ifor that reason you can't compare it well to a state like Illinois. Fulton, in Georgia just stands out as a weird looking county, looks very gerrymandered physically, and it is way more diverse than any other georgia counties. So that makes it stick out like a sore thumb.

I agree with you that the number of commissioners isn't the problem, and 4 or 5 of them ARE assigned geographic regions very specifically, so that's probably handled as well as it can be. But the poor pay and just over-all level of corruption is not quite like something you see in the third world, but might be shocking even to people in the mid-west or east.

Texas is first with 254.

I was under the impression that Georgia's constitution prohibited the addition of another county...

Looks like some of these states have more counties than they need.

We got some people here in Indiana that think Allen County is the largest county east of the Mississippi. Bunch of nuts here. Just by comparing Wisconsin with 72 counties to Indiana's 92 counties there has to be counties larger than Allen County in Wisconsin.

254 - Texas
159 - Georgia
134 - Virginia
120 - Kentucky
115 - Missouri
105 - Kansas
102 - Illinois
100 - N. Carolina
99 - Iowa
95 - Tennessee
93 - Nebraska
92 - Indiana
88 - Ohio
87 - Minnesota
83 - Michigan
82 - Mississippi
77 - Oklahoma
75 - Arkansas
72 - Wisconsin
67 - Pennsylvania
67 - Florida
67 - Alabama
66 - S. Dakota
64 - Louisiana
64 - Colorado
62 - New York
58 - California
56 - Montana
55 - West Virginia
53 - North Dakota
46 - South Carolina
44 - Idaho
39 - Washington
36 - Oregon
33 - New Mexico
29 - Utah
27 - Alaska
24 - Maryland
23 - Wyoming
21 - New Jersey
17 - Nevada
16 - Maine
15 - Arizona
14 - Vermont
14 - Massachusetts
10 - New Hampshire
8 - Connecticut
5 - Hawaii
5 - Rhode Island
3 - Delaware

Number of counties limited; county boundaries and county sites; county consolidation.

(a) There shall not be more than 159 counties in this state.

(b) The metes and bounds of the several counties and the county sites shall remain as prescribed by law on June 30, 1983, unless changed under the operation of a general law.

(c) The General Assembly may provide by law for the consolidation of two or more counties into one or the division of a county and the merger of portions thereof into other counties under such terms and conditions as it may prescribe; but no such consolidation, division, or merger shall become effective unless approved by a majority of the qualified voters voting thereon in each of the counties proposed to be consolidated, divided, or merged.

Heading towards less diversity points us back to creating ghettos. We've been there and done that. It doesn't work. It's better to try to lift everyone up by working together, not dividing into homogeneous groups.

The rich white suburbs want all the benefits of being near the city but none of the cost. It's pathetic and greedy. Many of the suburbanites work in town (hence the horrible traffic) and use county services every day and go home at night to their expensive and rapidly-increasing-in-value-home and complain about their taxes. County workers pick up their trash, police their streets, maintain their parks, run the libraries, and countless other services, but they don't want any of their money spent in parts of town where those less fortunate live. Drive around north Fulton and then drive around West End or East Point and tell me where the money is going. The biggest corruption in the Fulton County government is the northern commissioners not being willing to raise taxes enough to pay for services. Conservatives are crazy. No taxes but all the services- as long as the services cater to them personally- no one else. The Fulton sherrif always gets blamed for the problems at the jail, but he has no money to do anything about it. Why? The FCC won't allow him any! New Chairman Eaves can hopefully get this fixed.

And it's NOT about the money. if "Milton County" thinks it's going to get better services for the same money or just save money for the same services, they are dreaming. That's why the counties merged in the first place- to save money! Economies of scale and all that.

Sorry, /rant.

"Many of the suburbanites work in town (hence the horrible traffic) and use county services every day and go home at night to their expensive and rapidly-increasing-in-value-home and complain about their taxes. County workers pick up their trash, police their streets, maintain their parks, run the libraries, and countless other services, but they don't want any of their money spent in parts of town where those less fortunate live."

Suburbs couldn't exist without the nearby cities.

:hi:

:toast:

largest county in Texas. Nothing odd about the size of this Georgia County. Nothing odd about the number of counties in Georgia, either. 254 in Texas. Good gosh, even Harris County, one of the most racist cities in the United States, has never considered splitting itself up. They're really not thinking clearly there - if the infrastructure crumbles in the "bad" part of the county, and the people there are forced to move off, where will yard maintenance people, maids, cleaning women, and other domestics come from for the "good" part? Hmmmmmm?

My county (San Bernardino) is the largest in the Continental US at 20,160 square miles. AFAIR, it is larger than nine STATES. Over 90% of our area is comprised of desert, with a high density of population in the southwestern end.

When we tried to form a new county, one more responsive to the needs of those who live quite differently from the majority of the populated area, the big towns and cities in the West End kept us in the county. The money was spent there, and most of the voters had no idea how life is different in the desert.

It all came down to the political power of one area, along with the money coming from that area.

They have 5 outlying county buildings so you can do most business fairly close to your house. There is a central county building as well (where the property records, etc. are).

Cook County is one of the worst run governmental units in the nation. The theft and mismanagement is staggering. It appears that the Chairman of the COunty Board is a hereditary office. The current guy in there is the son of the last one and he is a complete buffoon. He is trying to cut 7% across the board - including health services and the jail. It will be a disaster. There is so much middle management in Cook County because they are plum political jobs. $75-90,000, little work and just show up most of the time. Those jobs won't be cut because all those with them have clout.

I say homophobic because when the Olympics were in Atlanta 10 years ago Cobb County at one point didn't want any part of the volleyball arena as there might be some of them gays there and because well they would have to put in light rail and you know who rides out of the city on the light rail ;-)

and their property they are paying too much.

Did some checking.

On one Atlanta Area Chamber of Commerce member.

Fair Market Value 1,538,600
Assessed Value 615,440

Guess how much in property taxes he is listed?



Look below


















ZIP NOTTA
Not one red dime from 2000 to 2007

are based on market value.
It use to be on assessed value.

they have higher property values.

going to benefit African-Americans. If the rest of the county were white and prosperous, they wouldn't even notice.

By the way, it's not a Southern mentality. It's a suburban mentality. The dirty little secret of the postwar era is the extent to which suburban growth has been fueled by racism.

North Fulton worrying about state and federal money going disproportionately to Cumming, or Canton or Winder. That would be a good investment. Money spent in South Fulton is a waste.

:yourock:

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I lived in Atlanta 10 years ago and it was still a hot debate then...the usual suspects bring it up from time to time

since about 4 years ago, everything at every level is republican here. I think they could very well do this, but it would take quite an effort.

Atlanta is a Democratic city, but the county that most all of it lies in has an extra piece that runs twenty miles north. This is 55% about taxes and 45% about racism. They think that if they split off that their taxes will drop, but the truth is that the city is incredibly prosperous and they benefit from it. Other counties outside of Atlanta have prevented our public transportation system from coming into their counties and bringing "negroes" with it. This part of the county resents that they must accept the system coming into their area, and think it brings crime and black dudes wanting their white daughters.

Atlanta is not Georgia.

those "negroes" in

LOL </sarcasm>

better to lock em up in the basement.

your post is the most accurate. To conservatism, money trumps all values.

...that live out there. They're just fine as long as they have the cash to afford their respect.

Until their girlfriend (wife?) burns down their house.

Right after they built a rapid rail line up there?! Ye gods!

I was just in Atlanta for a conference in Oct. I must say, I was impressed at the increase in diversity since our N.O. progressive crew used to road-trip up there in the early '90s. The people at the pizza stand were speaking Spanish, the woman in the card shop was Chinese, and so forth. It seemed like what you guys always wanted: to be New York, Jr. And then stuff like this happens... :shrug:

EOM

Just when the repugs start making people think that they are becoming more diversified - after all, they have Condi Rice, don't they? - they do something like this that shows their true colors. They can't help themselves, they are a racist and bigoted bunch. It's who they are.

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And Rednecks & Hillbillies.

They're fine, upstanding, Christian Republicans with college educations.

Then what?

That's a huge tax base in north Fulton. I see a political bloodbath over this scheme.

...O...

but keep your black asses out our county,racist and stupid,let their kids defend them.

The "Eastsiders" of the Wichita Metropolitan Area (in Butler County) versus the "Westsiders" (in Sedgwick County.) There is even a city in the middle of the City (called Eastborough) which was formed to avoid paying taxes in Wichita. This whole division goes back to the days of cattle drives when east of the Arkansas River was Wichita & west of the River was Delano - liquor and "loose women" were legally contained in Delano (Wyatt Earp's first law enforcement job was guarding the bridge between the two against prostitutes crossing - he was fired when he was caught pocketing the fines. Not surprising when you consider he was convicted in the 1920s in Los Angeles of "living off the earnings of an immoral woman.") Racism really enters into it mainly because, as a group, Blacks are more likely to be poor. "White trash" is just as unwelcome in these little GOP enclaves.
Full disclosure: Though I live in Southwest Georgia right now, I'm a born & bred Wichita Westsider and my uncle was a founding member of the Delano Historical Society.

And for everyone I know and talk to (Republican and Democrat alike) it's not about getting away from dem scary ol' darkies, it's about one thing, and one thing only.

Taxes.

As the article points out, taxes flow out of North Fulton County and into South Fulton County. Residents of NFC would like their taxes to be spent in NFC.

The people I know couldn't care less about the color of the people benefitting from NFC taxes. All they know is that those taxes are not being spent on NFC roads, parks, and schools.

Shocking as it might be to some, not everyone in Atlanta (or even in the "white Atlanta suburbs") is racist.

I am a black woman living in Fayette now but lived in Sandy Springs prior. The issue is most certainly about taxes. There's no denying racism exists in Georgia but to claim this issue is entirely about MASS racism is just wrong. IMHO is shows a lack of knowledge of the long term issues in question and the history of Fulton County.

Thanks!

But it is hard to avoid seeing a pretty strong component of it. I think for many the tax issue is a convenient rationalization. Taxes aren't going to go down, and services aren't going to get any better. You will still have to pay for everything you get, and everything will be more expensive up there. In other words, if you want your trash collectors to live in Milton County, you will have to pay them Milton County wages. Forget about the East Point crew coming up there for Southside scrip.

Have you seen the roads and parks in south Fulton?
I can't think of anyplace in North Fulton that isn't brand new or in perfect condition. Why don't you get corporations to underwrite your friggin parks if it's just about money? The biggest problems up there are because people are moving in and having kids faster than you can build stuff.
So you guys are going to draw lines around an area with no poor people and call that home and everything else somebody else's problem. OK, we won't call it racially motivated. Let's say 'classism". If the poor neighborhoods happen to be minority, hey, how are you supposed to know?

I'm sorry. I'm really irritable today.

if given the opportunity one area which is better developed would opt to secede from the larger.
Hey, they chose to build and live in Fulton County; that's about the way it will eventually turn out, imo.
One would have to search the state laws to gauge the viability of such a move, like when was it last tried in the last half century.
I do think it's a class thing in Atlanta. Gwinnett will be trying it next maybe? Oh, I forgot, there's no "downtown" (there).

...O...

I suspect most people actually do understand that Atlanta, Georgia, and the south is not saturated with white christian racist bigots. However it is sad that some people think that is the case, and write off the entire region. By doing so you write off all of the blacks, latinos, asians, and dozens of other ethnic and immigrant groups who live here as well. No number of "I live here and your view of things is incorrect" will change their minds.

The view that rich white people must live in the suburbs and poor blacks live in the city is itself a stereotype. The area also has suburban middle class and high end neighborhoods with predominantly African-American residents. I assume there are also neighborhoods with mostly Latinos and Asians as well as their populations have been growing here for the past 20 years. There are some now quite established Asian and Latino communities in the NORTHern suburbs of Chamblee and Doravile, and while I'm sure some people were horrified, there weren't any race wars or threats of succession as a result.

Just like most issues, the ultimate picture is a grey one. Not black or white. Turning every issue into a race issue marginalizes the genuine race issues that we DO have and need to overcome.

I'm pretty sure Doraville and Chamblee are NOT included in the proposed Milton County by the way, so the threats of secession are actually quite real. Those communities are still welcome in Fulton County.

Most of the proposed Milton County has been incorporated into the NEW cities of Milton, Sandy Springs, and John's Creek. But this still isn't enough. There is still a miniscule residue of county taxes that may be being spent inside the perimeter, and that cannot be permitted, apparently even if we have to amend the state constitution.

I never claimed that Doraville and Chamblee are in the proposed Milton county, as they are currently in DeKalb county. I presented them as an example of suburban areas that have diverse communities.

This one has a lot going for it on the race tally. Let's at least acknowledge that there are some issues that really are race issues, eh?
You call them "suburban", I call them "inside the perimeter". You bring them up as suburban ethnic communities, but they are excluded from Milton, and the fact is there are no ethnic communities within (proposed) Milton, so your point is lost on me. Milton is homogeneous white, upper middle to upper class, and can't be bothered with making sure the people who clean their offices have a flu shot or the parking lot attendent has access to books or that there is a fire truck and ambulance available for the poor shmuck who happens to get in a wreck in unincorporated Fulton.

I'm sorry my opinion differs from yours, but that's the way things go.

And to expand on my point, Doraville and Chamblee were 30-40 years ago what some of North Fulton is today - suburban white communities. Populated with established white small town families and a huge influx of middle class white flight from the city and new residents flocking to a growing job market. Chamblee's borders, I believe, are indeed inside the perimiter by a few hundred feet. Doraville however straddles the perimeter, its city hall is about a 1/4 mile inside of the perimeter.

My greater point, perhaps I'll simplify it, is that we're not all a bunch of racists. I'm sorry that some people think so, hopefully they will learn otherwise in years to come.

I don't mean to imply that everybody in North Fulton is a racist. I certainly don't believe that. That does not mean that there is not a racial component to some people's attraction to the issue, even if they don't consciously recognize it. Claiming it's primarily a "taxes" issue is not convincing to me. Does anybody really believe that their taxes would go down, or that they will get better services for their money? I suppose marginal improvement is possible, but by the same token another layer of beaurocracy is being created. Fulton/Atlanta and other neighboring communities as well as the new communities within Milton can't and shouldn't be ignored; there must be coordination among services to provide any efficiencies or even just to plan and learn from different experiences. And as I said before, I find it annoying that whatever services that would be provided in Milton would likely be provided BY people who live elsewhere because Milton won't be able to afford to hire Milton residents to do it. So, Milton get's to prioritize what it wants it's tax money to go to by opting out of supporting the neighborhoods their service providers come from.

Prevent then from entering city limits. Extend the city limits to include the airport.

I'm missing your point here. What are you suggesting?

The city's crackdown on sex offenders strikes fear into the heart of the white 'burbs.

Where will sex offenders go?
Commissioner fears stricter city law will send them to suburban neighborhoods
BY KIMBALL PERRY | KPERRY@ENQUIRER.COM

Two weeks after Cincinnati passed a law further limiting where sex offenders can live, Commissioner Todd Portune wonders if that might prompt offenders to move to Hamilton County's suburbs.

Portune has ordered County Administrator Patrick Thompson to do a "geographic review" of Hamilton County communities that might see sexual predators moving there from Cincinnati. Thompson said Wednesday he has to meet with his staff to determine what that review will entail.

Portune suggested Cincinnati's law change could result in "an out-migration" of sexual offenders "into suburban communities in Hamilton County."

Portune noted the Jan. 10 law Cincinnati enacted extended the area where sexual offenders were prohibited from within 500 feet of schools, public pools, recreation centers and other specified areas to within 1,000 feet of those areas....

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070125/NEWS01/701250361