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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 03:37 PM
Original message
(James) Baker, (Warren) Christopher to head war powers commission


http://www.kare11.com/news/national/national_article.aspx?storyid=245498

Baker, Christopher to head war powers commission

Former Secretaries of State James A. Baker III and Warren Christopher will head a private, bipartisan panel to study a lingering and gnawing national question: Who does the Constitution say has the power to begin, conduct and end wars.

The dispute over the authority to wage war has historically divided presidents, members of Congress and scholars. Through the years, the White House gradually has assumed increased control of U.S. war-making, and it has arisen anew amid the shrill debate in the new Democratic-controlled Congress over President Bush's war buildup in Iraq.

...

The war powers study is sponsored by the private Miller Center of Public Affairs at the University of Virginia.

Among its 12 members are Baker, who served under the first President Bush; Christopher, who was in the Clinton administration; Hamilton; former Attorney General Edwin Meese, who was also on the Iraq Study Group; and Brent Scowcroft, a former national security adviser.

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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. My, my, James Baker III is a busy man -- also on BOD of firm buying out TXU
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/16787591.htm

>>
Former U.S. Secretary of State and Treasury Secretary James A. Baker will serve as “Advisory Chairman” to the new ownership.
>>
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. You've got to be
shitting me? 2000 fucking deja vu all over again.
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Sequoia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Foxes in the hen house. You bet.
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Parche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
34. James Baker
This is like putting John Wilkes Booth in charge of security at the Fords Theater............
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. "Who does the Constitution say has the power to begin, conduct and end wars"
Edited on Wed Feb-28-07 03:48 PM by htuttle
The only reason to 'examine' this question is to come up with the answer that "No, they don't".

The Constitution seems clear as day on this issue to me where it describes the responsibilities of Congress:


To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;


Seems to me that the signers of the Constitution were particularly concerned about keeping the power to wage war OUT of the hands of the Executive. Hard to read this any other way. What this new 'Baker Commission' will be doing is looking for a 'lawyerly way' of contradicting that intent.



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ryanmuegge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Official documents, rather than bumper sticker phrases.
Always appreciated.

Anyway, it's pretty apparent.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Hmm? That's the exact language of Article 1 of the US Constitution!
Here:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articlei.html

Did I misunderstand what you were saying?
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ryanmuegge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. No, I was complimenting you for copying and pasting that...
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Ahh, I misunderstood.
Since the actual language of the Constitution on this is simple enough to actually BE bumpersticker slogans, I thought it might have been mistaken as such.

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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. It is simple. Tragically, "too complex for the likes of us" . . .
. . .propaganda is rampant.

The notion that a commission is needed at all is part and parcel of the propaganda. It's far too complex for ordinary people -- even for experts. Need a commission to delve in. All "theories" must be explored (even fantasies that are to Constitutional principle what "intelligent design" is to science).

The illusion of complexity and the notion that knowledge and fact are illusion (i.e., all is belief and all beliefs are "valid") are the hallmarks of fascism.

http://january6th.org/reject-fascist-fantasy.html">How to Resist the Fascist Take-Over
Banishing Fascist Fantasies from the "Marketplace of Ideas"

. . .

Unitary Executive: American principle v. Fascist principle

The notion that the 1973 war powers act (which was passed by Congress and can be revoked or radically altered by them) empowers the President of the United States to ignore our laws must be rejected on principle -- American principle v. Fascist principle. It is lunacy to think the Constitution for the United States of America gives (or even might give) the Presidency the power to flagrantly violate the collective will of the people codified in the acts and resolutions passed by our Congress.

You do not need an expert to weigh in. You don't need a law degree, or even a high school degree, to know that absolute power like that is NEVER freely given to a leader; it is only taken by deception or force.

This is not the first time that fascists have appealed to legalistic technicality and "complexity" to thwart the will of the people, and it will not be the last.

The law is intended to serve our will, not thwart it, Too many Americans have been deceived into believing that they are helpless in the face of legal authority. Even when we are in complete agreement that the INTENT of our law is being overruled by legalisms and cynical misuse of the courts, we have submitted to authorities who tell us, "the law is the law." The spread of this fascist view of the law has had devastating consequences.

No matter how long and complex, or how "scholarly and sophisticated" in form, when an opinion yields results that violate the intent of our laws and the principles embodied in our Constitution, the opinion is a sham.

Like the story of the Emporer's New Clothes, sometimes the "authorities" and "sophisticated" are taken in far more easily than the naive. If we are to preserve our constitutional democracy, ordinary Americans must trust their own judgment and reject the sham.

http://january6th.org/reject-fascist-fantasy.html">More. . .
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. see this thread
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wake.up.america Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
5. This is insane. The Constitution is perfectly clear.
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seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. Why does this remind me of Election Theft 2000 in Florida?
Edited on Wed Feb-28-07 03:59 PM by seafan
Just another bleeping sideshow to this madness.

Impeach * and his vampire NOW!


Thus, if the 110th Congress, controlled by the Democrats, fails to get the information it needs -- and the public wants -- about the workings of the Bush/Cheney presidency, it will not be because it does not have the tools with which to obtain that information. Rather, it will be because it lacks the will to use those tools. ----John Dean, December 29, 2006
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. Because invoking "complexity" and "legal technicality" to trump reality is the fascists' game.
Edited on Wed Feb-28-07 07:44 PM by pat_k

http://january6th.org/reject-fascist-fantasy.html">How to Resist the Fascist Take-Over:
Banishing Fascist Fantasies from the "Marketplace of Ideas"
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
8. lolololool I'm a citizen of one truly fucked up country
Rule by committee

Don't take it to the people
Don't use the Constitution as a guideline

Form a committee and let them decide...and who makes up these committees?

LMAO
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. How right you are, Solly Mack!
We are living in what has become a truly fucked up country ... and every day here in these insane times is like a walk through Wonderland where we're always waiting to see the next bizarre thing being imposed upon us.

I think most folks have just sort of gone numb, and many feel sick at heart and weak with fear and dread as the criminal acts of Bushco go unchecked.

As for who makes up the committees ... it seems from what I hear, in cases like this latest one, they are being set up by those who comprise them. Perhaps following Darth Cheney's lead, you know, from when he picked himself as VP.

What better way to pre-determine the results?

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El Supremo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
9. After this they can form a commission to decide if the SCOTUS has the power to decide the Presidency
Just read the Constitution, you boobs!
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
10. Why even bother? With Baker in the henhouse, we know damned well
what the end result will be.
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mazzarro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
30. Agree - the result is already in even before hand
Why is it that the conservatives and neocons that are selected for these commissions and debates are always the conniving and scheming ones like Baker, Meese, etc while the liberals/progressives tend to be the most accommodating and least likely to upset the applecart? I guess they (the selected liberals) all are paid by the same masters - big corporations.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
11. hmmm-- bunch of EXECUTIVE BRANCH ex-employees...
...to study the question of war powers? Gee, that'll be a surprising report.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
12. James Baker: The Ultimate Saudi Puppet.
And it doesn't even raise an eyebrow, does it?
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
13. My questions -
(1) Who is funding this private group ?

(2) What difference does it make ?

Comment - Their findings have already been written up before the study begins.

I just want to know which stink tank is behind this - AEI, Heritage????

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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
15. This is a joke, right? Onion? "a private, bipartisan panel"
Edited on Wed Feb-28-07 05:15 PM by donkeyotay
to take a look-see to discover where your Constitution and Bill of Rights went. They've been privatized. Another "think tank". "We looked into it, and -oh, how 'bout that - we own you."


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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
16. BREAKING!!! Baker and Christopher to take "Intro to US Government 101"
Always a good idea to relearn the basics once in a while...
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. ROFLMAO!!!! Hmmm.....Democracy or Tyrranny that is the question!!!
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
20. That's easy. The power to impeach trumps.
Edited on Wed Feb-28-07 07:36 PM by pat_k
. . .It is we the people, through our representatives in Congress, who are "the deciders" when it comes to the limits of executive power -- or judicial power.

The principle of consent demands a way to withdraw that consent. Impeachment is that mechanism. (Not that Bush and Cheney obtained our consent in a lawful election in the first place -- but that is another topic.)

They can blather on, attempting to place some "absolute" power in the executive branch. But ultimately, the powers that a given occupant of the Office of the President is allowed to exercise is completely up to us. The bottom line is that we gave Congress -- our voice -- the trump card. Impeachment.

The branches are NOT co-equal.

We put a big fat thumb on the scales in favor of branch most responsive to our will.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
24. Ahhh.... Outsourcing Oversight. . . sneaky exec. branch move..
Bad men... Bad bad UNELECTED men..
Bad.
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olddad56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
25. The commission has reached a conclusion, President has the power...
to do whatever the fuck he wants to do.
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
26. Philip D. Zelikow - former director
of the 'private' Miller Center of Public Affairs

so, why is at the University of Virgina?

Philip Zelikow
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Philip_D._Zelikow

He is also a member of the Council on Foreign Relations ... seems most of the 'bipartisans' find 'common' ground there.



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BenDavid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
28. Well hell, at least Lee (Whitewash)
Hamilton is not on this committee.....Whitewash because he whitewashed Iran Contra and the 9-11 commission.....
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
29. I'm going to vomit. deja vu.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
31. Yawn
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classysassy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
32. James Baker
a member of the Texas mafia,that hijacked America in 2000,sure we can trust him.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
33. Is it just me or is this a debate that should be taking place at the USSC??
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