Users force Dell to resurrect XP

Source: BBC News

Responding to customer demand Dell has restarted selling new PCs with Windows XP installed on them.

The decision reverses a policy begun in January that meant Windows Vista was the only operating system available on almost all new home machines.

The change came after Dell's feedback site was swamped with calls for the return of the venerable software.

Now customers can opt for the Home or Professional version of XP on six models of Dell machines.



Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6575089.stm

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(more at link)

LOL, this just made my day. The Vista nightmare never ends for Micro$oft.

The consumer is becoming so marginalized.

Thats what monopolies do, ignore the consumer.

Perhaps this was the most blatant example of this. Coke decides after decades to move to "New Coke" then when the consumer balks, moves back to old Coke and markets it as "Classic Coke."

I don't know why they do this, but I do know that someone got paid oodles of money for this blunder...

I'm just getting ready to leave my old Win98SE for a newer machine with XP Home. What's this about Vista? Aside from being new and naturally buggy, why is it a nightmare? I hate that my old OS is no longer supported and I'm being dragged to XP, a program I do not like, kicking and screaming. But Vista is worse?

... in other words, they can't catch a break. (And they shouldn't considering how bad Vista is) Yeah Vista is worse, it eats up fantastic system resources, has all kinds of dumb (and insecure stuff) enabled by default. Plus M$ reworked it from the ground up (taking longer than any other operating system giant to create a product) and its still a pile of crap.

Vista is blowing up in Micro$oft's face. Making tons of folks run to Apple or Linux. M$ will still hold a huge market share so most people will still use Vista than something else, still tho, there are more Mac converts today because of Vista (and M$ even made Vista as Mac looking as possible) than there were before Vista.

To say that it's creatinv MAC converts, though, I doubt that.

It's not causing people to run to a MAC; they're still using their PCs, but they're just avoiding the stupid, pointless upgrade.

XP is just fine. It's the best thing Microsoft has ever made (which probably isn't saying much). That said, I'm sure, assuming you have a very powerful computer, Vista is pretty nice looking and stable.

There are three folks in my office alone who have made the switch in the last few months. They like their Macs, and were simply looking for more stability but aren't interested in computing enough to geek out with open source.

Why waste an extra $2000 when you can download what's essentially the same OS for free? Yes, it's geeky but the price sure as hell is right when you still have to find and/or re-purchase all that Windows software that won't work anymore.

(OS X has enhancements, but it'll run only on a "mac". Entry price for something halfway decent is give-or-take $2000.)


TCM = Trusted Computing Module - you can thank politician Fritz Hollings for that little DRM gem...

reportedly similar to OSX.

Or how about OSX for Intel, or OSX86:
http://www.osx86project.org/

There really are a LOT of alternatives to Microsoft these days, it seems.

I've always found my Apple machines to be a much better value in terms of what they contain (there is no bargain-basement Mac) and how long they last. Plus I have loved all of my Macs (and they all still work). I can't say the same for the three Dells I've owned.

Then I see no reason why businesses wouldn't be able to make a switch to Macs. With Linux, there's OpenOffice, but I don't know if MS Office will open OpenOffice documents.

I switched, and never use MS Office anymore. In fact, neooffice's files are 1/2 the size compared to MS office. the latest version 2.1, just plain rocks. stable, great for small office use.

just google neooffice and follow the instructions..

My mother in law bought a system from Staples with Vista loaded, but the printer came with no Vista drivers. Drivers were available online but she is dial-up - how would you like to go through that. If I'm not mistaken the first release was to home users only - the businesses knew better.

And I agree about XP. I was drug kicklng and screaming but it has treated me well.

My mother in law bought a system from Staples with Vista loaded, but the printer came with no Vista drivers. Drivers were available online but she is dial-up - how would you like to go through that. If I'm not mistaken the first release was to home users only - the businesses knew better.

And I agree about XP. I was drug kicklng and screaming but it has treated me well.

New 24" iMac. I've been a PC guy for most of my life, but I don't want to deal with Microjunk any longer. Although I still have to use it at work, I'll be starting my own business soon enough, and then I'll be mackin all day...

computer without permission.

i'm probably going to go Apple.

and the rule that if you change your hardware, like your hard drive crashed, or the CPU burned (fairly common incidents), then you've "gotta call MS" big brother and get "approval" for the change.

The consumers got mad at least one version too late. Reminds me of the Peter Principal.

I use Linux at home. There's a bit of a learning curve involved, and it's not as fancy looking, but it does everything I need -- with security and stability, and the price is right!

But unlike what some believe, Vista isn't a "ground-up" creation, it still holds onto a lot of the 2000/XP core.

First, the security features that are enabled in Vista are (by some accounts) overly anal, and ask you to confirm ANYTHING that can possibly change a setting that is higher than your user's permission. But, after all of your programs get installed and your computer is customized to your liking, those messages are kept to a minimum.

And regarding "reworked it from the ground up", that is false. The first versions were reworked from the ground up, but about 3 years into development, they scrapped all of their work and went to a Windows Server 2003 base, which meant that they had to drop many of the proposed features, but gained a lot of stability.

I was a balls-to-the-wall Microsoft developer for about ten years.

Vista is a really neat shell application, but a shell that nobody really wants. It does some things very well, but it is also much more annoying than even WinXP.

I got a "free, licensed copy" of Vista from MS at the Vista launch because they wanted me to develop stuff for it. Once installed, I found out it was not only sending data packets back te Redmond, but that it wasn't a full version. It was missing a number of things, AND it suddenly timed out after about 14 days. Well, screw that noise.

I'm about 95% converted over to Linux now. The learning curve on the programming environments is steep, and I'm having to abandon VB for Python, but I think it will ultimately pay off. Vista is going to be Peak Oil, High Noon, and Haymarket Square for Microsoft. I do not know ANY Microsoft programmers who don't feel abused by all this pump-and-dump behavior. Even DotNet is turning out to be a boondoggle, though it had the makings of a real revolution in programming. Feh!

Well, it was nice company while it lasted.

--p!

A couple of friends of mine are working toward making Python as easy to use and full featured as Visual FoxPro.

VFP is STILL the best application development platform ever but it's finally and for good being orphaned by m$ -- sometime around 2012 or 2020 or so.

http://dabodev.com/

My main gripe with developing for Linux is how difficult it is to write GUI code. The Microsoft IDE does most of the work for you -- and that makes it a killer app. I am enjoying Python, but I'm still at the script level.

I have noticed that a lot of Linux apps have a half-finished look, and closer inspection shows them to be GUI problems. I am mindful that Linux is in the early stages of becoming The Next Big Thing, and that these small nits will work themselves out over time, but better GUI work (and tools) will help with that.

IIRC, VFP is set for the Redmond Needle in 2015. It will be covered under standard support until 2010 and extended support until 2015.

Thanks again for the link ...

--p!

I wasted years working in what ended up as an abandonened framework and I won't make that mistake again.

And I use Vista.

More seems to be augmented rather than freshly re-written. As Microsoft has lied before, I have no reason to believe them now.

And UAC (User Account Control) is annoying, but ANY form of security is because it bypasses the 'instant gratification' hack corporations programmed into consumers. One day it'll be hacked, no doubt, but if suspicious malware attempts to do something, UAC will intercede. Given Windows' past, how is UAC a bad thing?

And Vista is not a hog. The big issue to that claim is the new SuperFetch service; the new caching system that caches what you use. It's a "curate's egg" and I have my own suggestions for what it should do... It's also easily done to disable this component and free up that space for real applications if one prefers. On my system, it accounts for 400MB of RAM usage. I have 4GB of RAM, tech sites who've already done tests have shown on neweer systems with larger amounts of RAM, the need for SuperFetch is negligible - ironic, but true. Only people who use word processing and web browing to the same web sites over and over would notice, and to me that's pointless. Besides, RAM should be used for applications when possible - SuperFetch knows when to give it back. I just hope it was competently coded so memory leaks don't mess up the system. (So far, not yet, but I haven't done too much yet...)

Other OSes like Linux and OS X cache data as well. So if I were to gripe, I'd say Windows' updated task manager should denote which data is application and which data is cache. Or allow manual user control as to how much RAM should be used for caching. 5 years' worth of development and what we have is interesting, but not sufficient IMHO. They claim Americans are stupid as the reason for their offshoring, but I wholeheartedly disagree. Not when think yankee honky can think of stuff in 2 seconds what they couldn't in 157680000 seconds, give or take 20000...

Unused RAM is still being wasted. So why not use it? Microsoft was RIGHT in what they did. (Sweet Jesus, I'm defending them for once...) Just like how VM applications make use of unused processor cycles; let's all trash VMware for being bloaty too. (I will; basic apps run great but anything system intensive slows it down royally. I miss Win98 emulation via Win4Lin, which ran Win98 apps at native or faster speeds...)

I do wish Linux and 3rd party VM application developers would improve their linux-based clients... but that's going to be a while. Maybe now they'll have an incentive to do so.

I tire of explaining the way that Vista caches, and that it's not bloatware, but sensible caching. Besides, none of the OS X fanboys listen anyway.

As a user, I see that as justifying why it doesn't run right.

If programs crash, it's a problem, not "proper functioning of a feature.

I tire of Micro$oft whores. I say this as someone who owns 0 Macs.

Admit there are major issues, or get out of the way. Micro$oft dropped the ball on this and it's become a huge boondoggle for a lot of people... to the point I'm telling everyone I know not to get it because it just a steaming pile of excrement even compared to the initial release of XP.

Seriously. There's no reason other than Micro$oft whoredom or real, honest ignorance why anyone who knows a bit from a byte should be promoting this garbage. I wouldn't even wait for SP2 of the thing- if I weren't a gamer, I'd be looking a installing linux or buying a Mac.

Vi$ta is a smack in the face to PC users.

I take it you haven't bothered to read up on how Vista actually works and what it does differently other than it's pretty UI. And, that pretty UI is also a complete change, where every window is drawn via DirectX and is processed and stored in video memory, not RAM, which speeds things up and also offloads processing from the CPU, providing better performance and a better visual experience (no leftover parts of the window being displayed on another window when you drag windows quickly).

And as for crashing, I've had less programs crash on Vista than I ever had on XP. And the programs that aren't working on Vista right now either use their own drivers and haven't updated them for Vista (which happens on most major OS changes), or are poorly programmed and used hacks to get their programs to do what they wanted to do. Vista restricts you from doing some things that could cause vulnerabilities, which were allowed in XP.

Other programs require administrative privileges to run, and if the app doesn't get them it crashes in Vista. That is a problem with the programming of the program, not a problem with Vista. It's equivalent to writing an app in Unix that requires root and not checking to see if the user is logged in as root before running it. A lot of the problems with apps on Vista can be solved by right clicking on the offending exe or shortcut and choosing "Run as administrator".

What about Vista doesn't run right? Give me some examples before you start calling it a piece of shit.

XP Service pack 3 isn't due to 2008 due to the launch of Vista. :(

Here's a decent article on Vista's goofy security:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/19/vista_uac/


And to counter the negative media is this article:
http://mikee99.deviantart.com/


As always, the truth is in the middle. Too many people (myself included) blindly follow what somebody else says. Then we blame other people for not toeing the line. It's a funny ol' world...

As in, your company is switching to it, and you need it because of that, or something similar. The "good" reasons are somewhat technical; to boil it down to stew you can chew, Vista will dial back the quality of its high-def media playback if you don't have display hardware Vista "likes". That's one reason, but another is the system itself- it's bloatware, huge and cumbersome, and (like any new Micro$oft OS) it's buggy as all hell besides- as in, wipes-the-whole-drive buggy (in some cases).

Go to Windows XP with Service Pack 2 if you have to make a move, but have an option to pick which one. It's as stable as that OS is ever going to get, and literally everything that's getting released for Vista for the foreseeable future is almost certain to run on it (I've yet to see a developer do the currently-suicidal "Windows Vista Required").

It's my understanding that Vista is, internally, nothing more than an updated Windows NT kernel with some added almost useless bells and whistles and slatherings of eye candy. Micro$oft totally dropped the ball on this one, and I'm not touching it with a ten foot pole (this coming from someone who builds his PCs for gaming from the ground up).

Might just give you a wee bit more credibility.

You can try it in a store on a demo machine and it will blow your socks off. It's pretty, it does cool things...but when you bring it home and put it on your own machine and try to resume your life, that's when you realize you've been had.

DON'T BUY THIS POS. For little more than the price of the Pro package, you can get an entire brand new Mac mini and use your old peripherals...and OSX has the tools to transfer your PC to your Mac, and they actually work.

Vista is a total, 100% pos.

.

I think it's the best thing since sliced bread.

Your comment is offensive to fans of sliced bread!

:sarcasm:

I like russian dark rye, unsliced. The two best ways to eat it are lightly toasted with french or belgian butter, lightly salted or sliced thin, then browned in olive or peanut oil, rubbed hard with a clove of garlic, salted, the served with a fresh slice of tomato and basil leaf. Yummy.

A friend just got vista, so I spent 1/2 a day and a case of beer trying to get it to work right. His scanner? nothing. His printer (VISTA READY HAH!)? nothing. Even his wifi took a lot of work to work. It froze up no less than 3 times as we tried to install it.

Just to rub it in, I brought out my macbook to let him get his mail. He was grumbling at the end about damn MS standing for multiple sclerosis, not microsoft.

sliced bread isn't really that impressive a baseline.

I bought a notebook from Dell when Vista was the only OS choice, and 80% of the applications that run fine on our companies XP Pro machines, will not run on Vista. Nor will our copier print drivers, etc...

I know a lady who bought Vista Home Premium and it came pre-loaded with Microsoft Works v.8.5 which would also crash if you simply tried to open up the File Menu to use Page Setup...


There is no other industry where a company can sell a product that doesn't work and get away with it.

And the reason I say that is my Microsoft Works v.8.5 works just fine.

your right about the defense industry and users can be the issue in a lot of cases,

I wouldn't go around making too many excuses for Vista when it comes to compatibility

The person with works issue is a little old lady, a sunday school teacher and she is definitely a noob, but, her less than 2 week old PC had crashed on startup on her more than 3 times, to a point where she had re-loaded the OS and had been on the support line with Dell about 40hours. This is not a PC that had any spy ware on it as she hadn't really spent any time on the Internet with her PC yet because she just bought it to help her with a few functions related to her job and church.

However, I am a sys admin and have worked with PCs for more than 12yrs, and her works program, would crash if you simply opened a new spreadsheet, went to the file menu, selected Page Setup and tried to set the page to landscape.

We logged the issue with Dell more than once and they couldn't resolve it. Finally I googled for similar issues and found a compatibility issue with Vista, Works and certain HP printers, and these were not obsolete printers but what is currently offered in the marketplace, in fact she bought her printer with her new PC.

I piloted that PC on several occasions and witness the crashes, so user error wasn't the issue it was compatibility. On top of that the new Direct X 10 is not backward compatible with older software, so have fun trying to make those old games that your kids want to play on your new PC.


I am glad that your happy with Vista, but in my experiences with it, both in a business and consumer environment, it failed to function in what I consider under normal conditions.

Microsoft announced that they are going to end their support for XP in 2008. They expect users to leave a more stable product into this new nightmare. I met a guy who worked for NASA at a conference a few years back and he told me that they were still using Windows 95 because it took them years to push that OS into stability and that they couldn't afford to migrate and test and migrate every time Microsoft decided to issue their latest version of bloatware.

is suspicious in the extreme.

That's all I'll say on the issue. Those of us who know a thing or two about PCs, OSes, and Micro$oft (which would apparently include you and me but not Certain Parties) know how bad this thing is.

I was told that Vi$ta's kernel is basically nothing more than an updated Window$ NT core. Is this true?

Another question: how do I know the digital entertainment hardware I buy has an implementation of DHCP that Vi$ta "likes"?

There is no other industry where a company can sell a product that doesn't work and get away with it.

Ever done business in the defense industry?

I never did DoD business, but I did work for a contractor.

:thumbsup:

--p!

.

They've never worked for the postal service either :P

What is the advantage of Vista over XP? I ask because, as far as I can tell, it's XP with a new Aero interface, which, while it probably looks nice, isn't worth the 200 bucks I'd have to shell out to get it.

is that m$ appears to be paying kickbacks to computer manufacturers to get them to include that bloated POS with new computers. The prices of laptops and desktops dropped about $200 as soon as vista was released at the end of January.

I just got a new laptop for a GREAT price 'cause it had vista on it. Vista don't run any better than XP and, as usual, takes 4 times the resources to do 1/2 the work.

But I bought the machine to load up Linux and get away form m$ for good.


If you don't have to get it, DON'T!!!

You mean, the hardware actually LET you install linux instead of having Vi$ta? /snark

Seriously, though, I did read a report or two of a computer manufacturer- I think it may have been either HP or Dell- actually forbidding installation of linux on machines sold with Vi$ta. It would try to load the linux kernel at install time and would return a kernel panic and lock up or some other such 'brick wall' barrier, regardless of the kernel version. I don't know how much truth there was to it, but I certainly would not put it past Micro$oft to put something requiring that into their manufacturer's licensing agreement. It fits their M.O.....

and ruled illegal, due to anti-trust laws, especially if Microsoft was involved in the decision. No, what really happens is if you install Linux, you lose hardware support and your warranty. Granted, in some models, you can get Linux pre-installed, or an OS-less computer to install the OS of your choice. Generally, both these options continue support even with Linux installed.

Maybe I was seeing things...

Isn't this a bit like an auto manufacturer voiding a bumper-to-bumper warranty because you got a better stereo?

Here's an interesting argument re: Vista that should set a lot of people, myself not excepted, straight...

http://mikee99.deviantart.com/


I've made my own comments here and elsewhere. And no doubt I'll have more to say; both positive and negative. And some of the tips and tricks readily found counter quite a bit of the negativity claims too. Again, people following rather than thinking. Maybe that's why so few people like me. :7

:hi:

Whom I also can't stand, I don't like either Apple or MS. He does, briefly, touch upon the use of, and standardization of, DRM, however, dismisses it as "all COMMERCIAL OSes do it". There are about 3 additional criticisms of Vista that are reasonable, and those deal with pricing, lack of features, and his first point, the hardware requirements and performance.

The first and second criticism are related, the fact of the matter is that I don't see how Vista justifies its price, the security features are nice, but should be available for free rather than for an additional cost, for XP owners, at the very least. The additional features, while also nice, could have been made available on Windows Update at a fraction of the cost, optional, and at a fraction of the disk space. By the way, MacOS X is guilty of this same shit, just on a smaller scale.

This brings me to his next point, the performance of Vista, many claim its slower than XP, and this is true for those who don't have a frame of reference, i.e. are using Vista on the same computers they ran XP on. This is especially true on PCs that BARELY meet Vista's hefty requirements. However, he challenged people to find ANY OS that runs FASTER, I assume on the same hardware, when upgrading. Well, I've had the same computer for quite a few years, here are the specs:

AMD Athlon XP 1.25 GHz

256 MB of RAM

256 MB Nvidia Graphics card, AGP 4x interface

SB Live! sound card

I guess that covers the basics. I also dual boot XP and Ubuntu Linux, the only upgrade I've had was the hard drive, the first one was a 20 Gigabyte, if you can believe it, now I have one 160 GB hard drive, and a slave drive that's 30 GB. I didn't upgrade these with any OS release.

OK, I've been running Ubuntu Linux since version 4.10, which was released in 2004. This has been my experience with Ubuntu:

4.10, Somewhat buggy, had to go into the terminal/text files to change some settings, mostly Nvidia/X related. Slow at booting, some programs were slow at loading, sometimes X crashed.

5.04 Better version, had an upgrade manager, still had to go into the terminal/text files to set up Nvidia, also, some media files required some ugly hacks in order to work, still slow on boot.

5.10 Extremely stable, and I tried to crash it, this was the version when I experimented with Compiz, which slowed down my computer enormously, and occasionally crashed itself, though I was able to disable it afterwards.

6.06 LTS This one had the first graphical installer for Ubuntu, a couple of clicks, and it installed, and all this from a LiveCD. Speed at booting was much improved, almost equaled XP from beginning of boot to desktop. The only major problem was that I had to set up my Nvidia drivers from a terminal, again, however, at least this time I didn't have to manually edit any settings, restricted media support still required Unofficial hacks and such.

6.10 Booting speed is the same as 6.06, allowed you to install restricted media support through official, and graphical(Synaptic package manager), channels. Nvidia drivers still had to be installed through the terminal, but otherwise, fast and stable.

7.04 Newest release, one click "graphical" effects(compiz) available at start, also can download and install Nvidia graphics drivers automatically, with no need for opening up the terminal. Includes a migration manager for Windows users. Pretty much everything is seamless and easy as pie to install or setup, without resorting to unofficial or hard ways to do it, that could break your computer. Boot time is even faster than before, which is actually hard to believe, I installed Beryl as my window manager, I like the themes from it best, and my computer is responsive and "snappy", sometimes literally, with the windows wobbling like they do. :)

While all these could be considered just "incremental" upgrades, at best, its comparable to the transitions between the various versions of MacOS X or Windows NT based OSes. A lot of changes occurred under the hood in addition to noticeable changes, such as better wireless support and expanded hardware compatibility. The fact is that the ONLY version of Vista my computer can even run is Home Basic, which, after reading about it, is so limited its literally useless, even XP has more features.

Right now I run both XP and Ubuntu, Ubuntu is for serious work, such as word processing with OpenOffice, including updating a local city's history book. In addition to that, I do photo editing and 3D modeling under Ubuntu. I use XP for games, and I manually disabled my Ethernet adapter on that, just to make sure its secure. To be frank, with the DRM protections, especially related to HD content, I'm glad that HD and Bluray protections have already been hacked, hopefully I'll be able to download an equivelent to DeCSS for my PC in a little while, so that, when they become affordable, I can create a Media center that will be useful and based on Ubuntu Linux.

Here's a question: why does Micro$oft insist upon moving interface elements to different locations between Windows versions? I was hopelessly lost in the interface, and I didn't feel applets were located in the "right" place.

Oh, and given I've been using Window$ since the days of 3.1 and linux since RedHat 4.5, I'd say I know a very great deal about where I'm coming from. And it's not just me- retailers are reporting record returns for this OS, specifically, and consumers are none too happy about the forced switch. It's so bad, Del had to resurrect putting XP on new machines, instead of going Vista only for "most" new computer purchases.

You should read more about computers and computer OSes. It might just give you a wee bit of credibility.

I just got a new used pc from ebay and there's a high-pitched whine driving me nuts and another reason why the migration to it is going so slow. I can add memory or a sound or video card, but I get the cold sweats at the idea of messing with a drive. The seller thought it was the fan on the hard drive, but it could be the power source? I haven't been inside it yet, still too nervous after accidentally killing the hard drive on my last new used pc. (I know. You have to get right back on the horse.)

and rummage around in there to locate the whine. It could be a case fan, power supply fan, CPU fan, or failing hard drive bearings. On *rare* occasions a power supply will whine (loose transformer windings or core laminations) but it's usually a fan.

Don't fear working with drives, they don't bite. :) Usually if they're going to go, they just go...and it sometimes happens to coincide with a time you had the case open. But unless you're deliberately shorting things out or hitting it with a hammer while it's running, you generally aren't going to kill it.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan, PC tech

NEVER touch an exposed electronic component with your bare hands if the computer is powered up- especially if you don't know anything about electronics.

Just a suggestion.

Really.

I was in a similar state when I got my first windows PC(windows 95a most unstable pos ever). A toshiba with tons of proprietary software and hardware, and I had it nonfunctional no more than 24 hours after I brought it home. Being a nuts and bolts kind of guy I made tons of mistakes but learned from them. Now days, I build my own PC's. Don't take this the wrong way, but when you buy a new PC you pay for tons of crap you might not ever use. Instead you could be spending your cash on strictly hardware and only software youd use. You end up with a PC that has better staying power in the face of technological advancem,ent that way. Its not for everyone, but worth considering. It does help to have a RL friend that can show/explain to you as you go, but with the internet, not as big of a deal as it once was.


Even if you don't end up building your own, the ability to replace a hard drive, video card, case fans, power supply or sound card are quite helpful when something goes bad, as opposed to paying cash to geeksquad or wherever to have it done for ya. Warning though, its addictive.

Just something to think on.

At least, the internal drives I'm used to using don't have them. I don't know about external drives, but then, that doesn't sound like it's the cause of your problem.

I would open the case and take a listen to the fans. One thing you could try if you can't figure out which fan is causing the noise is the old process of elimination: disconnect the power cord for each fan in turn and briefly turn the computer on (no NOT leave it on). if you lose the fan after you unplug fan_x, there's your culprit.

The easiest way to kill data on a hard drive is to be charged when you touch it; remove a piece of the case (usually the 'door' panel) and touch that first, sit on a static mat, or anything else you can think of to dissipate static before you muck about inside the case. Also, never, ever use magnetic screwdrivers on any interior portion of your PC! Magnets + PCs = nothing good.

But I bet you already knew all that too. :)

If you're 'scared' of messing around inside a PC (and this goes for everyone reading, not just yourself), the very very best thing you can do is get your hands on an old tower nobody in their right mind would actually use at this point, take the thing apart, and learn about the pieces. When I say "take it apart", though, I mean literally that: you should end up with an emtpy shell (without even a power supply OR a motherboard! muahahahaa!) on one side and a bunch of big, expensive Legos on the other.

Now, learn about each piece. Try to figure out the model number (you'll need the motherboard manual to hook everything up; you can usually find them online), and see what you can learn about each part online. Try to identify the manufacturer, and by doing so, figure out where to get drivers and such. But always, always, when putting together an unfamiliar PC, think before you do. Learn which side of the IDE cable goes pointing which way, where all those little tiny 'cables' for the power light/HDD LED plug onto the motherboard, how many screws you need to secure that in place- everything from the vital to the trivial.

Now, put it all together. Then install linux (I'd suggest Ubuntu for linux noobs, and debian or slack for the experienced... for a balance, try Fedora)... and I say linux for this particular project because a) it's free and b) it'll run on just about anything... you can even run a linux kernel/shell from a 1.4" floppy on a PC without a hard drive if you like. Hardwarewise, linux is very forgiving, provided you know what you need to about the hardware you want to use.

The other reason I suggest linux for this project is because this is a fairly technical project for someone who's never done it but, at the same time, the end goal is a working PC, and I can't guarantee "your" window$ version will run on it. I know linux is "good like that", though, so you may want to give it a go. If you do, try what called a "live CD" first; the OS boots from the CDROM drive, with nothing written to the HD. It just loads it all into memory... but you need a lot of memory for it to work, and on an old machine, you may not be able to find enough RAM to run it from the CD- you may actually have to install linux to the HD if you don't have enough RAM, and that's a whole other project, especially for older hardware resulting from the first project.

Know that I've condensed everything I've gleaned from building my own PCs in the past fourteen years down into one post. I'm sure I'm forgetting things, so if you have a question about this mission- should you choose to accept it- just PM me or anyone else on DU who's a computer geek and we'll be glad to help you out however we can.

(I will be laughed at for even suggesting linux, but the OS has made great strides toward user-friendliness in the past few years, and it's definitely worth at least checking out. Other than gaming, linux is easily a viable alternative to Micro$oft, and I would use it exclusively but for the fact that I'm a gamer.)

"if you lose the fan after you unplug fan_x, there's your culprit."

should read "If you lose the WHINE..." Oops.

...which one it is.

Check the smaller ones first, they usually die first, but the bad news is, they cost about the same as the big ones.

The thing to do is, break the lead off of a regular wooden pencil, then open up the case, turn it back on (carefully) Make sure you don't touch anything with anything but the pencil. If you want to be extra safe, break off the metal part with the eraser too. Use the pencil to stop each fan, one at a time. If you stop one and the noise goes away, replace that fan.

Btw, you might find one of them is already dead.

Also, if they don't spin freely when the power is off (they are easy to spin), that fan is about to die too.

If it is the fan in the Powers supply, unless you have a spare power supply fan laying around and a Soldering Iron, it's easier just to replace the whole Power Supply.

"The "good" reasons are somewhat technical; to boil it down to stew you can chew, Vista will dial back the quality of its high-def media playback if you don't have display hardware Vista "likes". "




Your talking about HDCP/HDMI compliant video cards and monitors right? Also, I read that directx 10 will not be available for xp. Any insight on that, or what difference it might make to gaming/home theater usage in the future with XP?

Like other posters on in this thread, I switched to xp a a year or so ago (I switched from 98se, which I know alot of people weren't fond of but I was always able to tweak to do anything I wanted). XP home specifically. I found it to be horrible. I got my hands on an OEM copy of xp pro with sp2 included and it seemed to make all the difference in the world.

I've been told that the only elements of DX10 that are crippled in XP are those that are specific to Window$ Aero. As far as I know, everything else will work.

I have noticed that the OEM copies seem to perform better than the upgrades or the factory installs. I wonder why that is....

:freak: :think:

HDMI and HDCP are two different things. HDMI stands for High Definition Multimedia Interface; that's the device you use to view/play the media. This can be either video or audio; in the case of BluRay or HD-DVD discs, for example, it would probably be both at once.

HDCP stands for High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection. This is a form of encryption which encodes the video and audio data before it is output to the HD device through the HDMI port. Vista, as far as I know, requires a certain type of display device to play back content in HD.

I know very little about computers and I find that Vista is far more user friendly. I have had not one single problem with it and I have had it about 3 months. No bugs so far. I keep hearing bad things about it but so far I like it much better than XP.

It was the Mac OSX that m$ was trying to copy.

They failed but it DOES look more like a Mac.


Don't try to run Outlook 2002 or any version of Visual FoxPro before 9.0 or .... For computer developers and consultants such as I was before retiring vista is, as usual, another sharp stick in the eye.

Sorry, Mac is not the god of computers. We have two in our home and I use my PC because I like it better. I learned on a Mac and stuck with my PC once I learned how to use it. As I said, I don't do anything special so this is the viewpoint of someone who, for what she does, is very happy with Vista.

Every single thing I have transfered or downloaded for use works just fine for me. I have had not one single problem.

I think the differences really rests on what you do. Of course you would have more problems, you were a developer and would be using your computer for many things I would not understand because I do not require them.

Vista has been stable, more user friendly and I do not care one tiny bit if it was a "copy" of a Mac system. You could not give me a Mac, well you could but it would gather dust.

It's buggy, crashes often and can't do certain things. But I like it.

And it takes so little of my HD space. But I use XP Pro at work. It's pretty good.

From what I hear, Vista takes HUGE amounts of storage space, DEMANDS a fast processor and will not run some older application (written for Win98, for example).

But what did it in for me was that Vista wouldn't work with "older" Lexmark printers.

I have two of them.

Check out the vista "range" here:

Have you ever used XP? 98 was a nightmare compared to XP. You could run Windows 98 forever if you want. People still drive cars from the 1950's too.

I love MyCorkboard and I suspect it won't work on XP. I love the mystery theme I have for wallpaper. It matches my real rug and tall bookcases. Comfort stuff. All the XP colors are too garish. Also, XP has an attitude that I shouldn't trouble my little head over things. It tries to be too intuitive and sometimes I find it downright condescending.

with the same trepidations that you express - I will say that I find that xp is actually a more stable os than 98se for me.

Vista has a clause in the users agreement (without which it will not run) for you to "agree" that microsucks can troll through your machine at will and decide which, if any, programs it deems "malicious" and "allows" microsucks to delete them from your machine.

:eyes:

Why would anyone buy a program so intrinsically creepy?

I haven't looked back. XP works SO much better and is a lot more secure. But you couldn't force Vista on me at gunpoint.

There are a lot of problems with Vista that go beyond its being naturally buggy. I'm sure you can Google Vista and read all about them.

Microsloth has announced that they want to end support for XP in 2008

:rofl:

I guess by Vista's standards, it's practically "the gold standard"
:rofl:

My daughter may be looking for a computer soon and didn't want Vista.

unless you want to pull out your hair as her technical support person.

When my girlfriend needed a computer I made SURE she got a mac. I've worked with every version of windoze from 3.1 through Vista and each "new" version is a bigger PITA to administer.

With vista they've finally included a few "options" that you CAN'T get rid of especially its Big Brother SpyWare features...

Get a Mac... They've even come down in price. She'd Love one of those cute little laptops.

But at the same time, I'm highly tempted to go with one. I'm pretty much fed up with constant error messages.

I use both platforms...believe me, the Mac commercials are true. I spent twenty minutes on the phone today with a client just trying to get a basic .jpg graphic to print out of Windows. It always astonishes me that people are willing to accept Microsoft's version of reality as some sort of "standard." Standard pos, imho.

.

I've heard from some people that hackers are able to infiltrate Macs, and that there are indeed viruses for Macs out there. To be honest, I've never even used a Mac before, and don't personally know anyone who uses one, so my knowledge of them is pretty scant.

"Theoretically," a couple of tech companies created "viruses" which exploited certain features under specific condition which no one would ever encounter. Like, if you turn on the Mac precisely at 9:00pm while you're facing Mecca during a full moon and a republican administration...but really...Macs don't get viruses NOT because "they're not popular" as Windows-lovers claim. It's because of the fundamental difference in the architecture. Windows allows programs (exe's, etc) to run themselves, to self-launch. The Mac OS simply has no comparable security hole. Before ANY system-altering app can run, an administrator must authorize it. Not so on Windows. It's just a difference in the way the two are designed.

.

http://applefun.blogspot.com/

The lack of viruses for Macs is an example of nothing more than security through obscurity. These days, malware authors are primarily motivated by either notoriety in the underground or profit, and they're going to get more of both by attacking the OS that people actually use in the workplace.

It's also because the Mac OS, like Linux, is a completely different, more secure architecture (based on a REAL venerable OS - Unix) that is resistant to the egregious security holes built into EVERY version of windoze.


Also, there's a difference between virus and malware. Malware is generally "invited" into your machine by visiting certain websites with your defenses down. Malware reports back to the mother ship with your internet activity. They're usually trying to sell you something or track your usage.

Viri, Worms, etc. are programs that run on your machine and exploit OS and software vulnerabilities to do anything from waste your computer's resources to killing your machine.

http://projects.info-pull.com/moab/

And if you think that these are only specific instances that nobody could possibly take advantage of, think again. This is where ALL exploits come from. Take that rare specific instance of memory corruption, package it in an innocent looking executable, and wham, exploited. And since there's a severe lack of virus scanners for Mac OS (due to people thinking that OS X is immune to viruses), there will be no way to stop the spread.

I'll bet the windoze bug database gets hundreds of new entries per DAY.

And how, pray tell, does this "memory corruption package" get installed on the MAC? If you've got windoze, especially vista, crap gets installed on your computer all the time... Not so with the MAC.

Hell, WindDoze IS a worm...

What crap is that?

I already described how a memory corruption attack can occur... a stupid user downloads a pretty looking executable that promises to do great and wonderful things. Next thing you know, it's installed itself with root privileges and is sending itself to everyone in your address book.

That's how most exploits are done. It's called a Trojan. If you don't know why, then you need to read more.

And 31 in a month from ONE group is a lot. Like so many others have said, the reason Macs don't get viruses is because nobody bothers to write them. Why attack 2% of the computers when you can attack 98% of them?

pushing stuff onto my vista machine.

Soon it won't be an issue. I bought this laptop to loadup with Linux.

seen it ever do that. Anything that it installs that isn't a critical update it requires you to explicitly accept anything that is not critical.

Please provide examples.

"especially vista, crap gets installed on your computer all the time" Because you have Vista? or is this just the meme?

Vista won't allow anything to execute that requires administrator privileges without explicit approval from the user.

Secondly, i suppose Mac and other *nix OS's aren't vulnerable to root exploits... Uh-huh. Sure. You go on believing that.

and linux/unix users like to tout how only Microsoft OSs are so full of holes and bugs, but every OS even the Unix based flavors have vunlerabilities, they are just not as big of targets to the script kiddies who love to hate Bill Gates.

Yeah, alert me if you want. But I'm sorry, anyone saying "no, they can't" as an absolute statement is an idiot.

I *DO* believe that right now the MAC OS is designed slightly "tighter" than the PC OS. But the number one reason why MACs have been virus free is NOT the quality of their infastructure. It's because they represent about 2% of the computer market! In other words, people developing viruses are NOT TARGETING the EXTREME MINORITY OF MAC USERES!!!!!!

If they were, it is **ABSOLUTELY** true that MACs would have as much of a hard time dealing with security issues as anyone else does today. MAC is able to act all superior and smug simply because its suck a fucking joke that 90% of people don't fucking use it.

How many times to we have to hear the "2%" argument? If you don't even know the market share, and are willing to continually draq out the same tired debunked talking point which has been addressed a couple dozen times even in this one thread, why should I be concerned about your opinion? It's obviously worthless and uninformed.

.

That was really uncalled for by me so I'm sorry.

I'm not sure what was wrong with me that day but...yeah...lame. Sorry.

A little over aggressive in making your point don't ya think? That being said, you are correct.

Right now Macs don't have enough market share to interest virus writers. OSX and Linux have more safeguards against viruses than Windows does, but those OSes could and would get viruses if people wrote them. And hackers can infiltrate any OS, though again Windows is easier.

I've been using Macs since the late 80's and have never had any problem. My last Dell got taken down by malware/spyware even though I had all of the firewalls, virus protection programs (paid ones), and multiple spyware....the amount of time just taking care of this crap was a big waste. I hadn't even gone on line for a year much at all other than to update Windows and was using Foxfire so I was really surprised when my system started taking a long time to power off and start up. I did find that I had thousands of spyware incidents, mostly cryptic. My PowerBook G4, which I used online extensively had zero.

I got an Intel iMac and run a few Windows programs using Bootcamp. I stopped my virus program when it ran out because I don't allow the Windows side to go online.

Last time i checked, there were about 10,000 times more games for Windows than for Mac...

fun isn't simply defined by games. When you buy a Mac you not only get a beautiful and incredibly stable OS, you also get software which allows you to quickly and easily make great looking home movies and burn them onto a DVD. You can work with your photo collection, you can record a podcast or your own musical compositions. There's just tons of stuff to do and it all works together pretty seamlessly.

for the PC. I'd rather have my choice of 50 different DVD authoring apps than have one dumbed down ultra-limited authoring app. By dumbed-down, ultra limited, I mean that it can only handle apple proprietary formats (QuickTime), and dumbed-down because you can't set extended options for the authoring. It comes with a few preset styles for the DVD's that you're stuck with. Good luck importing a DIVX video into iDVD :)

All of the Apple apps that come bundled are way too dumbed down for someone who's used to professional grade products that give you a full range of options. For someone who's never dealt with those apps before, iDVD & the rest of the apple apps look really flashy & cool.

That and a lack of an intel native office suite make it a no-go for me.

And yes, I've got both an Intel Mac and a PC... getting ready to sell the Mac when i get around to listing it on ebay.

My Tae Kwon Do instructor got a camcorder for Christmas and started taping some classes and our most recent belt tests. She wanted them on DVD so I volunteered, even though I had never used iMovie HD or iDVD on my Mac. From the time I first hooked up the camcorder to the time I had the first DVD burned, I never looked at any documentation and had absolutely no problems building a movie and burning it to DVD. The next three discs went even faster.

I wish it weren't true; I'd love an alternative to Microsoft. Unfortunately, at the moment the only alternative gaming platform is Sony. OK, Nintendo too, sorta, if you're a lightweight.

The majority of people buy computers to use as a desktop machine, not a gaming machine. And the companies that make the most money making computer games target the majority of computers.

machine...they can't do the most basic things and need lots of support. I'm through wasting my time troubleshooting and handholding for bottom feeders. You get what you pay for, and the Mac is a better deal point-by-point.

My roommate called M$ support for the first time in his life when we got a laptop that needed to be validated but wasn't accepting the serial number printed on the bottom of the case.

People who can't do the most basic things with their PC failed to read the fucking manual. It's so pervasive, there's an acronym: RTFM. As in, "if you don't know how to do the most basic things with your PC, RTFM."

Learning how to fix your own problems makes you computer literate as a matter of course. I simply cannot believe there are people foolish enough to spend $60-$80 to defrag a couple drives, clean out the temp directories, remove unnecessary registry entries, etc. and etc., to say nothing of simply installing hardware! They may as well roll their money up and smoke it...

It reminds me of when Microsoft rolled out Windows ME. After about a week, I removed it and went back to '98.

Anything Microsoft puts out, should be considered a virus for at least a year.

Does anyone know, who has vista, is there an option to do a dual boot of Vista with Windows XP? I bought a Dell computer with a free upgrade to Vista. I haven't received the upgrade yet, but am hesitant to install it if I do, but wouldn't mind putting it in a dual boot system so I could try it out and still have XP as a backup.

Meg

I set up a triple-booting machine with XP, Vista and OSX86.

i wish i'd known dell was going to do this. i was looking at dell until i saw only vista installed. no way i want to be a guinea pig for vista. actually, i'm glad i didn't have to do dell because they outsource.

ellen fl

They had two refurbished desktops with XP, everything else was Vista...as was Best Buy...

changed over to vista at the same time. i missed some sales of xp machines by one week! thank goodness for ebay.

ellen fl

and bragged about how awesome it was coming together.... BWAHAHAHAHA...

www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<-- check it out, top '08 stuff

It's still wowing me!

I have Ultimate on a desktop I built, and Home Premium on my new HP laptop. The only real "gotcha" I've had was due to Norton on the laptop messing up the Windows networking (it seemed to block NetBIOS discovery no matter what I did with its firewall.) I yanked the supplied Norton off and installed AVG Free (my favorite antivirus, it's fast, small, stable, and free!) and all was well.

I still run my XP box (ProTools isn't Vista-ready yet) and my digital photo work takes place on that machine as well. I also run a Windows 2000 Server machine for file and print services on my home network, and I'm beta-testing Windows Home Server (it's really neat!) Most of my work builds are XP as the point-of-sale and business apps the boxes I build need to run are still XP-only (not to mention point-of-sale hardware drivers.) But my boss and I both really like Vista for our home machines, and I like it better than OS X as well (my affection for the Macintosh started waning after OS9 went away, I just can't warm up to OS X at all, even though I work with it regularly.)

There is an awful lot of FUD out there...no, Vista won't eat your existing mp3's, and the HD DRM only kicks in when you're viewing a high-def DVD or Blu-Ray disc. As long as your video card and monitor/TV are HDCP-compliant (most new ones are now) you'll be fine, assuming you'll even be using the computer to view hi-def content. If you want to blame anyone for that scheme being in place, blame Hollywood, since they're the ones that dictate the conditions of licensing the HD playback technologies. Apple will have to implement the same thing if they want Macs to play back HD-DVD or high-def Blu-Ray content. Personally, I think the makers of playback technologies should band together and tell Hollywood to go to hell, but that's me.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

My Windows experience rating is a 5.0, I never knew a computer could be so cool! I think I like the WIndows Media center the best, my home is networked so what on my computer I can shoot to any television in my house!

The one I just got from eBay has a TV tuner card and I'm all excited. What it didn't come with, was a DVD decoder, of which I have enormous ignorance.

I HAVE ALL THIS NEW(ISH) EQUIPMENT AND IT ALL HAS INSTRUCTION BOOKLETS! BIG, THICK INSTRUCTION BOOKLETS!

How do I port my Bookmarks from Firefox in Win 98 pc to Firefox in XP pc, anybody know?

Bookmarks -> Organize Bookmarks, File->Export Bookmarks

Made a point to put one in every single PC I have ever had. And FM radio too. With HD looming closer and closer, I am getting tempted to go that route...but thats another story.

Stand alone DVD decoder cards now days generally aren't sold. I am sure there might be one or 2 available, but generally people use software decoders now days. WINDVD and a few other DVD software packages have it built in. I still run a DXR3 decoder made by creative labs (with xp beta drivers) in my pc and I run the sigma designs software with it. (sigma designs manufactured some creatives cards and thier own line, software is cross-compatable on some models) I run the card because it allows easy connectivity to externaldolby digital/DTS decoders in a home theater type setup. And, because the player doesn't chew up so much in resources with hardware doing the decoding rather than software. And at 1920 x 1440, DVD's look amazing.

If you wantyed to get your hands on a DXR3 you could pick on up on ebay for around 10$ after shipping if you keep an eye out.
Honestly unless your setting up an HTPC and have the external dolby/DTS decoders or a real old bone of a slow machine, its not necessary at all. Just fire up WINDVD or another player, or get a codec that lets you play them through windows media player.

It's always funny to hear you Windows guys think you've discovered something new.

.

I just wanted to wait for the Software Company that runs about 90% of the worlds computers.

...and they didn't know it.

Believe it or not, TV out depends on hardware, not software. But I bet you knew that already :P

invented the GUI, the mouse, hard drives, the letter 'e', oral sex, physics, numbers, and so on.

Really, it's not like it never would have come about anyway, right?

many is the time I have had a Macintologist tell me that Apple invented the GUI, among many other things.

"borrowed" from the work at Xerox PARC that was never patented.

And ...is it really worth it in your opinion?

I am looking at a 37'' 1080p hd monitor right now for gaming and as an HDTV monitor, and would LOVE to hear firsthand.

On edit: And I forgot to ask. How are you connected to the monitor? Do you use an hdcp/hdmi connection or strait D/L DVI?


I am still in a state of confusion over the hdcp/hdmi mess.

hdcp from the monitor to the computer, hdmi from my computer to my 67 inch flat screen television in the same room that the computer is in (this is computing in a whole new way!).

I'm looking at this Westy, but still proceeding cautiously because this will be my first HD experience and because I know there are some new HD technologies coming this year. Its not the best around to be sure, but for an entry level 1080p for a modest HT set/PC monitor, a better deal cannot be had. $999.00 plus shipping.









Brand Westinghouse
Model LVM-37W3
Cabinet Color Silver/Black
Display
Screen Size 37"
Recommended Resolution 1920 x 1080
Aspect Ratio 16 : 9
Viewing Angle 176°(H) / 176°(V)
Display Colors 16.7 Million
Brightness 550 cd/m2
Contrast Ratio 1000:1
Response Time 8ms
Connectivity
Input Video Compatibility PC Input Analog RGB
NTSC
480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p
HDTV Capability HDTV Ready
Connectors HDMI(R)-HDCP + L/R Audio 1
DVI -HDCP + L/R Audio 2
VGA/D-Sub/RGB + Audio mini jack 1
YPbPr Component Video + L/R Audio 2
S-Video+ L/R Audio 1
Composite Video + L/R Audio 1
L/R Audio out, Switched, Fixed Volume 1
HDCP Ready Yes
HDMI 1
Convenience
Built in Speakers 2-15 watt speakers
Features Lamp Life: 60,000 Hrs
Color Gamut: 75% NTSC
Progressive Scan
Aspect Ratio Conversion
CCS (Cross Color Suppressor)
3D Noise Reduction
PIP
Inverse 3:2 Pulldown
Freezing Picture
3D Video Processing
3D Comb Filter

I just got a 50" Samsung DLP set. Ridiculously cool tech. Lighter than LCD or plasma, and it doesn't suffer from burin-in or pixel death (DLP is immune to both those issues). My set has a higher contrast ratio vs. any other I looked at, too.... 10,000:1. That's very, very good, I'm told.

AND it supports 1080p! *happy dance* I'm set for years. The only issue I'm concerned about is the lamp life, as DLP lamps typically last only 6000 hours before they have to be replaced. Still, it had the best-looking picture in the store, including most of the LCDs and plasmas (the better pictures being both on a smaller screen and waaaaay outside my price range).

Really, take a look at DLP sets too. They're rear-projection (but much thinner than a CRT), so they can't hang on a wall, but I'll live with that tradeoff.

Norton (OK SYmantec) AV has never really played well with Windows, especially when it comes to installing new programs...many times you had to shut down every single lurking NV or SYM or LU process so it did not corrupt your installation.

I used to swear by Norton AV back in the day...sigh.

Just get AVG Free.

Just as good and the price is right --- Free...

http://www.grisoft.com/

You can also get a great Anti-Spyware from them too --- same price --- Free...

I'm also installing a 5-user version of AVG's corporate AV at a grocery store where we're installing a POS system. The price is reasonable and it's not bloated to hell like Symantec (which I understand has now been rewritten from the ground up since it got so buggy and bloated...talk about long overdue!)

Norton used to be really good. Panda's another over-rated disaster IMHO, their standalone single-user AV is an even bigger hog than Norton, and has non-disable-able popups and often breaks network printing. We have their enterprise AV in our main offices, and the desktop client uses so much RAM that I had to upgrade most of the desktops just to keep Windows stable. It sometimes fails to find long-known viruses yet won't let Flash player's web-install work, it hits a false positive. The administrative console software is buggy, too.

If you have to use a pay-for AV solution (business use etc.) another one that seems to work well is Kaspersky. They're often the first virus lab to discover and name new virii and other malware.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

The grisoft.com site offers no direction to those looking for a freeware version of their anti-virus or anti-spyware programs.

This is the 'mo betta URL:

http://free.grisoft.com/doc/1

for my job, has to be windows based. On the Dell Premier site for business you can still order XP installed computers, but on the personal side it is all Vista.
However, just purchased a MacPro for my son, and it is verrrrryyyyyyy cool.

I didn't mean it, Bill.

Maybe I'm just incompetent. As a software developer I've only worked on pcs for 30 years. But, imo, Vista is a horror show.

It is the most godawful corruption of what we had come to know and rely upon in windows that anybody can image. It totally violates the rule of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." (A rule I believe invented by Burt Lance, Jimmy Carter's something or other.)

Stuff doesn't work in it. Nothing looks like it did before. Many prior features have been eliminated. Many softwares (like PcAnywhere) don't run on it. There are literally dozens of pre-loaded programs running at all times, and the user has no control over them. And on and on and on...

Further, M$ has BOUGHT ALOHA BOB and retired it. So there's no good way to move software from one machine to another unless you Reinstall -- a nightmare.

I am very angry with M$ for this abomination. It should never have been released. And I should never have been stupid enough to by my new Thinkpad with Vista on it.

I agree.

Check out the costs analysis done of using vista:

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html
Executive Summary
Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in order to provide content protection for so-called “premium content”, typically HD data from Blu-Ray and HD-DVD sources. Providing this protection incurs considerable costs in terms of system performance, system stability, technical support overhead, and hardware and software cost. These issues affect not only users of Vista but the entire PC industry, since the effects of the protection measures extend to cover all hardware and software that will ever come into contact with Vista, even if it's not used directly with Vista (for example hardware in a Macintosh computer or on a Linux server). This document analyses the cost involved in Vista's content protection, and the collateral damage that this incurs throughout the computer industry.

Just be glad your thinkpad is not blue screening all the time because of crappy nvidia drivers. at least you are on ATI's driver set, which at least is 20x more stable on Vista.

Clearly vista was rushed out, it needed at least 3-6 months more of hardware testing to get the bugs out of the HAL changes they made. DX 10? The truth is there are two major video card manufacturers, and one dominant sound card maker.
Why oh why did Microsoft not iron out all the issues that result in major crashes before release? We are talking about
coordinating with basically three hardware companies: ATI(AMD), NVIDIA, and Creative Labs.

The 3d task switcher is useless, I agree that the one that comes with PowerToys is way better.

The only improvement that I find, is in the way windows explorer displays location, and prompts for combo boxes at each directory. WOW indeed. :)

Also I had to disable User Access Control the first week. That thing is useless.

decrying this monstrosity.

The cheerleaders on this thread are pretty amusing too.

Please note: I do use Window$ often, but only because I'm a gamer.

I just got my new Dell yesterday -- held off on getting a new computer, don't like to buy ANYTHING is its first edition, but Dell had a good bundle deal. Do you think it would mess up the computer if I got XP and cleared out Vista? It seems as though nothing is ever completely deleted -- I wonder if this is a good approach or not. I am contemplating calling Dell and asking if they can send me the XP to install. The other annoyance is my ATT/Yahoo account security does not support Vista.

Thanks!

What you need to do is get an XP install CD (buy on eBay).

Then re-initialize the drive. If you interrupt the start-up process there's usually a selection there to re-initialize.

Then boot from the CD and install.

Good luck.

I tried to edit this twice just after posting, but the server appeared to be otherwise occupied and the edits apparently never took.

Before you do this, contact Dell and ask them if there are special drivers and other features you need to install along with XP. This is often the case with laptops which have special features, like power control battery charge tracking, special indicator buttons and sometimes special menus.

Perhaps you can install XP as above, then install some kind up update pack from Dell.

ssia (subject says it all)

I can't send proofs, e-mail don't display properly, everything is totally fucked up. She was telling me yesterday she wished she'd never gotten it. She only wound up with Vista because they bought a new computer. I honestly just don't see how this company ever got to dominate the market.

Oops...yes I do. And it has nothing to do with quality products.

.

It was just over a year ago I shelled out for Adobe's Creative Suite 2 Premium (over $1,100), as well as their Framemaker software (another several hundred bux).

So last month I decided a really needed a new computer to push all this powerful software, only to discover that all new computers were all loaded with Vista and that CS2 wouldn't run on Vista. (However, Adobe cheerfully suggests I could shell out again for their newly released CS3, which IS Vista-compatible!)

Anyhow, don't mind me, I'm just venting...

I'm running CS2 on Vista now with no problems.

JG

someone has said "I'm running it fine".

So allow me to propose a new rule.

If you're "running it fine" on Vi$ta, show us a screenshot.

If Vi$ta's so great, that shouldn't be all that difficult to do.

Just so long as they keep installing XP.

He doesn't care for microsoft either.




From Engadget yesterday

According to Michael Dell's lineup of personal rigs, his prized Precision M90 is currently humming along with a copy of Ubuntu 7.04 Feisty Fawn at the helm, garnering speculation that it's at least in the hunt for being a Linux variety available on its forthcoming machines. Moreover, it appears that Michael doesn't shy away from open-source software at all, as VMWare Workstation 6 Beta, OpenOffice.org 2.2, Automatix2, Firefox 2.0.0.3, and Evolution Groupware 2.10 are also seeing a good bit of personal use. Still, the whole thing could be a complete ploy to make loyal users believe that the CEO really is just one of us -- after all, this same company did just reinstate Windows XP as an OS option.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/20/michael-dell-using-ubuntu-on-his-personal-machine/

I use apple myself and with the new apple machines you can triple boot your OS system, Unix (Ubuntu),
Mac OSX, or windows. You can not do that on a PC.

I've never used Linux, but combined with Vista's failure, maybe we'll finally start to see the evil Microsoft empire crack (disclaimer: I use a Dell with XP on it out of necessity, but I HATE Bill Gates' business practices.)

And the only problems she's having with it is some of her old programs arent working, but other than that, its very stable and she likes it alot.

I may upgrade to it when I build a new gaming system later this year when Cyrsis comes out, and for Flight Simulator X. Crysis a DirectX 10 game, XP doesn't support that and it never will.

About Vista taking up alot of space... Why even worry about that when most new computers now are coming with 100 to 200 gig hardrives? I wouldn't even worry about it taking a measly 15gigs. I know it also takes a pretty powerful pc to run it good, but just think, computers gain alot of power and speed in a particular price range in a matter of a couple years.

I say the only real problem with it other than a few bugs is the lack of driver support currently, thats not really Microsofts fault either. The other sofware makers have been dragging their asses on sofware support for Vista.

Windows is DOS, just dressed up and reaing to go!

it's too confusin...

Or if you want, I think I still have my tandy 1000 (from 1887) out in the garage.

I have worked with everything...

RSTS
VMS
Unix
Linux
Mac's
and Windows...

:hi:

Do you work in IT? It's still shocking to me when I see a woman in IT(in a good way though)... There just doesn't seem to be that many...

I am an engineer...

I worked my way through college in IT jobs...and still work with computers and programming..

You're talking about the 9x and before days...

There was a specific HP model she wanted and we tore Southern California apart looking for older stock that still had Windows XP on it. She wouldn't even take the coupon for a free upgrade to Vista!

The salesman then went on to aknowledge that they had barely sold any copies of Vista.

:rofl:

I'm a dumbass early adopter and got it last Feb., but I'm glad I was.

My Mac-hating roomie works from home, so she uses it while I'm at work, and she's totally turned into an Apple convert. M$'s big brother crap with Vista was just the final nail in the coffin for her.

--C, Machead since 1987 (I still love my old SE, I turned it into a Macquarium. :D)

Allows me to keep informed on how they screwed it up, but without the need to risk wasting my time reverting back,.

I should know, my family, without consulting me, bought two of them, and ANY computer company that HOT GLUES a heatsink to the goddamned CPU is a company of hardware dumbasses. The fucked up part is that there were MOUNTS for the damned heatsink already installed on the motherboard, clips and everything, what the fuck is up with that shit?

Holy cripes, I hadn't seen that...though I haven't had any of the newest Dells cross my bench. I do know my own builds are better than any of their machines I've had apart. It almost sounds as if they want to make it even more difficult to do your own upgrades.

Dell's overrated IMHO...their notebooks aren't bad but you can get machines from other sources built by the same manufacturers (Dell uses mainly Compal for notebook production, and recently signed a deal with Asustek). Personally, I think the new HP notebooks wipe the floor with Dells...they're thinner and have a really superb trackpad. They're quite handsome as well, I just got a dv6225 and it's a splendid little notebook.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

and she wanted an upgrade of the CPU, so, instead of asking ME for help, she went to her "computer expert" friend, and he literally YANKED the heatsink and CPU straight off the motherboard. She was pissed, to say the least, but, what happened, was that the CPU socket had a little lever on the side to disconnect the CPU, the problem was that the heat sink was at least twice the width of the socket, so you couldn't move the lever even if you wanted to. Now, on my computer, its a similar setup, with the socket and all that, but on mine, there are four little clips that attach the heatsink to the CPU, so you unclip those, remove the heatsink, then you can remove the CPU, without damaging anything.

No such luck on my sister's computer, with the heatsink glued to the CPU, her friend yanked both off, in one piece. So THEN she turns to me to fix it. I will say they lucked out, the worse damage was to the CPU, many of the small pins were bent, but not broke off. First things first, I had to remove the heatsink from the CPU, because the lever on the CPU socket has to be used to install the CPU again, and the heatsink would be in the way. So, using a knife, I was able to pry the heatsink off the CPU, which took a while. I then had to examine the small assed pins on the CPU, and using a knife blade again, I carefully straightened the bent pins. I threw away the heatsink, it had the glue on it, and it was simply too big for the CPU. I bought a new heatsink, installed the clips, then I reinstalled the CPU and new heatsink, and, on a prayer, powered on the computer. I was frankly surprised that it booted, but it did, and my sister was able to do college work on it again.

I told my family, after this fiasco, that if they want new computers, let me build them, I'll even do it for free, I don't care, all I know is that it makes my life easier when I KNOW what the fuck is on that computer, hardware and software, because I'm the one who they turn to for help on their computers.

you can release the lever, but I have seen thermal interface compound (especially on stock Intel heatsinks for Socket 478 processors like you describe) become so hard and sticky that the CPU sticks to the heat sink and comes off with it. It probably wasn't actual glue, but the really sticky thermal compound that a lot of heat sinks come with pre-attached. It certainly looks like hot-glue after it has hardened, and can be a royal PITA to deal with. I just scrape it off, clean the heatsink and CPU with alcohol, and put fresh compound on (usually Arctic Silver, it's niiiiiice stuff, or plain generic compound if it's a low-end system.) Though if you're upgrading to a faster processor, a new heatsink designed for the hotter chip is a good thing to get. Dell usually uses a large sink, as you saw, with a shroud leading to a rear-exhausting case fan. It's actually a decent cooling setup, one of the few things Dell mostly did right. :) Their proprietary fan connectors suck, though.

This has happened to me on a couple occasions despite my best efforts to get the heat sink off the chip, this is with stock Intel P4 CPU's with the supplied Intel heatsink/fan unit, standard off-the-shelf hardware. Dells typically have weird little retainers that hold the heatsink in place, and the sinks usually snap into the bracket as well. You can get them out if you yank hard enough, though as you saw from the "computer expert" it isn't the best procedure. ;)

And yeah, I've had to bend those #$%#@ pins back before as well. I like the new LGA775 socket Intel uses now, though you have to be careful with the sockets themselves as the pins in the socket are easily damaged. But the chips no longer have pins, just contact lands on the underside. Current P4, Celeron D, and Core/Core 2 Duo CPU's are LGA775.

As for heat sink size, most are much larger than the actual chip. The stock Intel CPU coolers from the Pentium 4 days til now are much larger than the CPU itself, and overclockers buy even larger ones with heatpipes and other goodies, and some even water-cool their CPU's! I've used the Thermaltake Silent Tower heatpipe-based coolers to good effect, they're huge (they make the stock Dell cooler look tiny even) but they work really well on 3.2GHz Prescott-core Pentium 4's, which run hotter than a firecracker.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

Which, I've heard, run a little cooler, the heatsinks usually are only just large enough to reach the clips around the CPU socket, and usually has a silvered backing where it contacts the CPU. Never had overheating problems from this setup. On my Sister's computer, it was some cheap Intel chip, Celeron I believe. The reason why I think it was glued is because the mount clips were present, i.e. 4 screw mounts surrounding the socket, but no clips, not even broken ones. The biggest thing is the stress on the socket, technically those things are only supposed to support the CPU, not necessarily the heat sink, though P3 sockets, those slotted ones, I forget the name, did.

I can tell you another story that'll make you scratch your head. OK, a couple of years ago, my Uncle bought my Grandmother a CD burner for her Gateway computer, the computer dates back to about 1999. Anyways, he didn't bother to install it, so she called me to install the CD burner for her. So I go to her house and it should have been simple, she had an empty bay, the top one, on the tower, so I took out the plastic front, and slide in the drive, with the side panel already removed. All of the sudden, the drive stopped, with about a half inch of it sticking out the front. I look inside, and the damned thing hit the motherboard! The back of the CD burner ended up flush against the edge of the motherboard. I hooked it up anyways, and it works just fine, but still, its rather ugly. I can't believe they wouldn't leave any spare room at the TOP of the damned case! The motherboard "sits high" I guess is the right word, in the case, while there is plenty of room at the bottom to shift it down, I didn't feel like making that type of move, it was too much of a pain in the ass, and I would have to cut new mount holes for the motherboard. I hate poor design like that.

That stuff's expensive. But then, you pay for quality, right?

I have a question for you... this one's tough. It seems I have a major video card heat issue.

I have a PNY NVidia 6800GS 256M video card. The cooling solution on the card involves a GPU fan over the actual chip, with a "heat pipe" extending off the area of the GPU and along the length of the card, surrounded by a heat sink.

I have read elsewhere that this particular manufacturer's cards operate at a higher temperature than others, and have observed this to be true- my internal temperature will typically rise to 115 degrees Celcius or even higher, and some games (Command & Conquer 3 being one of note) actually cause my card to overheat, resulting in a period of time in which I see only 3-5 FPS instead of (in that example) 30 FPS.

I have installed an exhaust fan pulling air from the area of the GPU fan and the heat pipe in turn and have seen zero benefit- not even so much as a single degree drop in top temperature for any of the games I run. I currently have five fans running inside my PC, not counting the one on the NV card itself, yet the heat issue remains.

Is there anything I can do, or should I just spring for a new card in the 8xxx line?

not volume per se, but direction of flow. Are all your rear fans exhausting? Typically, you want front and sometimes the side panel as intake, and the rear as exhaust. A fan in the side panel as extra intake aimed at the graphics card sometimes helps, especially if paired with an exaust fan near the card. I sometimes install an exhaust blower that takes up one card-slot bracket space on the rear, and mount it under the video card where it draws air over the card's heatsink. This really helps lower-end cards with no fans of their own, and can provide fan-equipped cards with a ready exhaust path.

Here are some slot fans:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=40000573&Description=pci+fan&name=Case+Fans

This might help with your issue. Those 8800 cards are nice, though...be warned, they run hot as well (but have their own exhaust setup).

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

as well as an egregious outsourcer. They also have a LOUSY reputation for their (choke) "service".

Very un-Democratic.

http://www.buyblue.org/node/763/view/summary

$40,818 to Democrats
$291,470 to Republicans

I REFUSE to buy any Dell stuff.

...and Jobs contributed heavily to Kerry. I can forgive someone for thinking Shrub might not be a disaster in 04, esp. if they didn't bother to check his record in Texas. But after the optional war and all the other crap, being a big supporter in 04 is pathetic. Gates did "win" his monopoly lawsuits. I was supposed to get something back from a class action suit, but since it was just more Microsoft crap, I didn't bother.

One of the first things the bush DOJ did was drop or soft pedal lawsuits against m$ and big tobacco.

that the others will follow suit?

surprised. I've had far, FAR fewer problems with Vista than I did 4 years ago with the pre SP1 service pack for XP. Vista is the OS that Microsoft is spending its development energies and money on.

It's been very helpful to hear so many views on Vista.

My conclusion from it all, fwiw, is that your reception to Vista is likely to dependon whether you have major, critical applications to migrate from your old os.

If you use your pc for business, you can't tolerate major interruptions for unexpected learning curves and programs that are critical tools for production being suddenly rendered useless.

It's equally unpleasant to have to lay out all over again for programs you've been using for years and have lost the original install disks for. I have some that go back to '95 and have been upgraded many times over the years. But the upgrade disks don't work without the prior base installation.

On the other hand, if you use your pc mainly around the house, to write, browse and handle email, you will probably find the transition to Vista relatively painless, and the entirely new look enchanting.

"On the other hand, if you use your pc mainly around the house, to write, browse and handle email, you will probably find the transition to Vista relatively painless, and the entirely new look enchanting."

For this type of user a Mac or Linux based PC would be just as painless and the look just as enchanting...

Don't keep feeding the monster m$ -- they don't deserve it.

computationally demanding algorithms that require many simultaneous processes. Your around the house remark is a little limited for us professional engineers.

If not then I would think the op sys has little to do with computational speed. Or am I missing something?

For shits, I tried this Google search.

I was, predictably, underwhelmed.

associated problems of finding 64-bit drivers.

it is the OS that Microsoft will be spending the majority of their development efforts and money over the next several years.

For the work that I am doing, the cost/benefit ratio does not conclusively demand the expense of a 64-bit architecture.

used Unix for years, long before it had native thread support and dynamic linking libraries. Unix is alright, but I prefer Windows for my home machines and now that I'm semi-retired I use only Windows.

:rofl:

17" LCD 120GB HD (60GB free space now...) etc., AND Windows Vista Home Premium Edition pre-installed since the end of January.

Wonderful system without any "nightmare" whatsoever (the only thing I removed was the Norton antivirus package from everywhere it was, including all its registry entries, and installed the free AVG anti-virus instead).

It simply is the best PC I ever had. I'll never go back to XP. That's it.

It's just the hate Bill Gates crowd here. What a shame, Vista is great!

with XP you were an early alpha tester.

With vista you're a slightly later alpha tester.

But you're still an alpha tester.

M$ is a cash-flow company. Any time they produce software that's worth a damn it's either an accident, or more likely, they stole it or bought out the company that wrote it.

It will made due, but it's bloatware, it has inane security features, its NOT compatible with TONS of software and hardware.

Vista is a mini-disaster for Microsoft.

that the Icultists are worse than $cientologists, evangelical vegans, freepers, and Jehovah's Witnesses all rolled into one.

Geez Louise! I actually like Macs just fine, but I loathe the Icult.

Microsoft has already announced that it's discontinuing XP support in 2008. Get ready to shell out money folks, they're going to force the change industry wide.

They're discontinuing OEM sales and new licensing.


I'm certain I'll be forced into Vista eventually. I'm trying to push that date off as far as I can, and when it finally does happen, it'll be on a stand-alone box NOT NOT NOT connected to the internet.

I'll use Vista for gaming only, and it won't be online. Vista, right now, makes me want to arch my back, hiss, and spit.

is true. If one is happy with XP, they will not have to shell out bucks for Vista for many years to come. It will be a post Vista release before MS discontinues support for XP.

The day my choice boils down to Vista vs. Mac is the day I buy a Mac.

I also ordered a copy of Ubuntu to play around with on an older PIII box. Vista is going to be a windfall, indeed...for Mac OS and Linux...