Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Bible Belt missionaries set out on a 'war for souls' in Iraq

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
kskiska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:38 PM
Original message
Bible Belt missionaries set out on a 'war for souls' in Iraq
American Christian missionaries have declared a "war for souls" in Iraq, telling supporters that the formal end of the US-led occupation next June will close an historic "window of opportunity".

Organising in secrecy, and emphasising their humanitarian aid work, Christian groups are pouring into the country, which is 97 per cent Muslim, bearing Arabic Bibles, videos and religious tracts designed to "save" Muslims from their "false" religion.

The International Mission Board, the missionary arm of the Southern Baptists, is one of those leading the charge.

John Brady, the IMB's head for the Middle East and North Africa, this month appealed to the 16 million members of his church, the largest Protestant denomination in America.

"Southern Baptists have prayed for years that Iraq would somehow be opened to the gospel," his appeal began. That "open door" for Christians may soon close.

more…
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/12/27/wirq27.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/12/27/ixhome.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. This infuriates the crap out of me. I don't impose my religion on
anyone and evangelizing it to people of other faiths
is religious fascism. I wonder how many of those freaks
are going to come home in boxes? How many soldiers are
going to get killed going over to pull them out of a
riot?

This could be the fuse that lights to nuke that takes
us all out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
68. Just another "power-feeding" for the power-hungry,...
,...need to deal with powerlessness. Same ole, same ole human weakness in facing the unknown and death. If only they/we would accept both (the unknown and death) as part of our existence. Then, no one could hold any power over us or divide us with fear. BUT,...this is our life,...still,...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
75. I feel the same way. The Iraqi culture and religion is very intertwined.
I don't believe in this "conversion" stuff. You know, give some starving people a can of spaghettios, then tell them how it came more Christ and then start w/ the videos and bibles. Makes me sick!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. Funny, ain't it, how God would "close a door"
that they just got prayed open?

Why the hell doesn't God just talk directly to those folks if he's so damn interested in them?

Or......maybe he already has..........
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. The nice part is that it puts Bush on the spot
"The missionaries pose a dilemma for President George W Bush. He has reached out to Muslims since September 11, shrugging off criticism from evangelicals to describe Islam as 'peaceful'. But Christian conservatives are also a key Bush constituency: Franklin Graham delivered the invocation prayer at his presidential inauguration."

The less nice part is that some of these idiots are likely to find themselves in major trouble.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. re: International Mission Board (So. Baptist)
"Medical outreach in Iraq may be key to permanent missions outreach"

http://mnn.gospelcom.net/article/5342

"What we look forward to is long term relationships where we can talk about Jesus Christ with these people."

http://mnn.gospelcom.net/article/5462

"God will have His way in Iraq, Brady said. Christian workers from South Korea, Brazil and many other lands are coming to Iraq to share the gospel. But he said, "I am jealous to see Southern Baptists be a part of God's plan for Iraq. I am praying Southern Baptists will respond to this opportunity, because they are about seeing God's Kingdom grow. I am jealous for Southern Baptists, not to be the only ones working, but not to be left out."


http://www.imb.org/urgent/articledetail.asp?urgentID=57
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
22. "have his way"
wasn't that an old euphenism for rape?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
32. "God will have his way"?
I'm sure he needs a bunch of fascist flunkies to carry out His will.

These folks are opening yet another hornet's nest and the rest I want to say is too inflammatory...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JPace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
5. Maybe it was a Crusade....
under the guise of WMD's.

This is just too much, don't they
know they are not welcome over there
and besides that it is just too
dangerous.

They are targets....asking to be victims.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
48. So when, not if, these wackos get killed, we should feel sorry for them?
Not me!

This is just pure insanity. They should be BANNED from any such thing there until this so-called "war" is over - they are interfering with this so-called "war" effort!

I wonder if peace activists will be allowed to go, to?

But, then again, are we at all the least surprised by all this?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. Yes, feel sorry for them
They've been duped by people they trusted. They had no way of knowing differently because they live in an echo box.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #48
76. I don't feel sorry for them one bit. They know the risks of going
to a Muslim country, so if they get killed...well, they martyred themselves for Jesus.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #76
90. The kids aren't told
Teenagers are told they are going somewhere to save souls, given a stack of Bibles and sent off "to do the Lord's work" without the slightest bit of training.

It's not their fault. Blame the parents not doing something about RRR preachers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
6. SOMEONES GOING TO HAVE THEIR ASS KICKED
Blown away---whatever

LOL

This should be met with Flowers Thrown and Cheers?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
28. exactly what I am thinking....
may as well put targets on their backs..... :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
93. The good news there is.....
...they won't be around to vote for Dipshit next year (somebody had to say it. )
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. The Iraqis
don't need another WAR!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
8. I give them 5 minutes, 10 tops
Before they're gunned down. Have these people not noticed that the Iraqis do not take kindly to foreign nationals invading their country, much less interfering with their religious beliefs? Someone who is so devoted to their religion that they are willing to sacrifice their own life in a suicide bombing will not take kindly to this assault on their belief system.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
33. Does Christianity really NEED more martyrs?

We just hope that no american soldiers are caught in the trap. These idiots must be responsible for their own blunders. Don't ask us to pull your fat out of the fire.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chasqui Donating Member (237 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. Sure, why not?
Missionaries destroy local cultures. Their work is very damaging to local populations. If they get shot at, or get hassled in any way, they have it coming.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #41
66. Not all missionaries destroy culture
See post #65
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. Read the history of Hawaii
for starters, before you give such a blanket announcement. By its very definition, proselytizing contaminates local culture and traditions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. Penance for the flaming sword of Islam?
What goes around, comes around?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
10. Goofy Religious nuts ....
:crazy::crazy::crazy:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
11. A similar group...
tried this in Afghanistan and met with a particularly dreadful fate.

As have others who have tried this in Muslim countries where Christian missionary work is illegal.

Iraq had been fairly well secularized, so they may not have the problems they've had in other places, but they are not in for an easy time.

IIRC, the other group used health and education work as a cover for their real goal, and when the adults didn't listen to them, told the kids their parents were going to hell. Needless to say, this pissed off the parents.

Note that missionaries have been doing good work for centuries, and many, if not most, have balanced their ecumenical fervor with actually building schools and medical facilities. Their goal is to save lives, and souls will tend to take care of themselves.

It's this sneakiness that causes problems.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
12. But Hey, Remember, It's NOT A Crusade.. Nope, Not, Nada, No Way, Never !!!
:mad::nuke::grr:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
13. Is the U.S. taxpayer paying for their protection?
We should not have to pay to protect these fools. They are not on government business.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #13
27. if they get faith based money we are eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
14. You're either with us or against us
My big worry since before the invasion was about what would happen when some ill befalls some of the doe-eyed missionaries. If this galvanizes more and more into an interfaith struggle, one will have to side with the Christians in this country or be an enemy combatant.

Simplistic thinking and belief don't bode well for the future.

Once religion gets a toehold into government, too, it's hard to get it out.

So great, a bunch of bumbling ideologues have forced themselves into a truly complex situation. There's martyrdom a-plenty to be had there; the easiest way to coalesce anti-American hatred there is if our "mission" can be convincingly portrayed as one of blasphemous conquest.

Amazing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
15. Just great give another reason for them to attack us
i think i would after enduring a psycopath like saddam (which we put into power and gave weapons to) twelve years of sanctions and another round of bombing an occupation and then on topof that having people stuff falwell and robertson down their throats i think i would have a break down
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jburton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
16. An awkward Missionary Position, for sure!
Thank you, you've been a great audience.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NJCher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
17. next time you hear about this crowd will be...
in an e-mail, subject heading: Darwin Awards


Cher


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
18. May they go to their Heavenly reward!
and good riddance when they do!

Thank you for posting your Christian Crusade posters, which will recruit more people to the Resistance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uhhuh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
19. What a bunch of chickens!
If they need U.S/U.K guns backing them up to preach Christianity, they must not have much faith that God will protect them, or that he wants them there. So what if it might be harder to get into Iraq when the Iraqis are running the government? If you were really dedicated to reaching the Iraqi people, you wouldn't have to worry about how to get to see them. God would take care of that, right?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
20. Man, are they ever multi-taskers.
Edited on Sat Dec-27-03 01:52 AM by cliss
They covered every angle when they decided to go to war, didn't they? It's like they called every contributor to the right on the phone and made a deal.

They gave every part of Iraq to them. They turned over the oil to Halliburton. Rebuilding contracts went to KB&R, Bucktel and others. Other reconstruction contracts have been promised to some coalition members.

And now, it seems that even the people of Iraq have been given to the religious evangelists. They have got to be rubbing their hands at the prospect.

Don't forget: Billy Graham appeared when Bush needed answers, and he converted George at his father's home some years ago. We know how Billy Graham feels about Islam. He has called it an "evil religion".

Like the bumper sticker says, "God, help me from your followers".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:40 AM
Response to Original message
21. The Last Crusade
we all knew this was coming. Other than the oil, it was one of the main purposes of the war in Iraq.

So World War III is going to be a religious war after all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 03:17 AM
Response to Original message
23. Horrible article.
They're swarming in to take advantage of the fact the new government isn't in place, and able to keep them out.

Their total lack of identification with these people as fellow human beings is astounding. They are simply "foreigners" to them, as strange to them as if they all were gigantic beetles.

Their sense of superiority, their view the others are low, unworthy, and evil just blows me away. This attitude has been around a long time, hasn't it? It's about time the world saw some change in human relationships.

All the changing has to be done by "the others." It's always "the others" who are completely F'd up, isn't it? We're all so lucky to be completely good, aren't we?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Bonus quotes from Praise the Lord Club's Tammy Faye Bakker:

"I take Him shopping with me. I say, "OK, Jesus, help me find a bargain.""

"You don't have to be dowdy to be a Christian."

http://www.creativequotations.com/one/1360.htm


Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, before the fall
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 04:38 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Actually, good article, containing unpleasant news! Sorry. n/t
Edited on Sat Dec-27-03 05:14 AM by JudiLyn
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Why isn't Ann Coulter in this photo?
"Kill off the all Islam leaders and convert the children to Christianity"


If Ann thought Joseph McCarthy was a great guy that was misunderstood, then I wonder what she'd say about Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker? I know the answer to that one!. They're the real saints of Christianity, and Mother Theresa was just a commie loving left winger.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
50. But at least Tammy has done a lot of good since.
NT
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Probably deep, relentless shame has driven her
to TRY to atone for raping and pillaging their poor, uneducated followers, economically, and spiritually.

A week in stocks or a pillory would be about right!



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 06:32 AM
Response to Original message
26. Why do they hate us? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
loudnclear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
29. Notice who always uses "war" talk.
The "army of God"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Yes, I've noticed that, too
No more than when I was visited by a tag-team of proselytizers. As they were walking to their car, after getting a "no sale," I discovered one of them had left her Bible behind.

I grabbed it, and raced out to stuff it into her Bible-waving mitts, knowing that they could have easily stopped right back by, and gone another round, claiming to be back for the Bible.

As soon as she saw the Bible coming toward her, she cried out, "my sword!"

Never heard a Bible called a "sword" before that day. Quite odd, after all, isn't it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
31. IBM
I will never buy another thing from them, and during my career I advised a lot of clients to use them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
babzilla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. IMB not IBM

The International Mission Board, the missionary arm of the Southern Baptists, is one of those leading the charge.

John Brady, the IMB's head for the Middle East and North Africa, this month appealed to the 16 million members of his church, the largest Protestant denomination in America.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
34. The Lord works in mysterious ways. Perhaps they will be the ones
changed to give up their "absolute truth" belief system.
One can always hope.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cowpie Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. They are free to go if they choose
but wow, at least let the bodies cool off before rushing there. Another reason I can't stand evangelicals.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
36. Fundie Xtians in for a surprise!
Students of the Koran will know more about the life of Jesus than the brain washed idiots who claim to have been born again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue Gardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
37. So when they get their butts in a jam..
I suppose our troops will have to rescue them instead of looking out for their own behinds. If they cared about the soldiers over there they would stay the hell out of the way and let them do their jobs. Sad part is if any of these idiots get killed, it will be the Muslims fault, and they will be made into martyrs by their cohorts back home.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
38. The arrogance of these fake christian control freaks is astounding
May they get their reward.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
39. why are they so hung up on "war"? Everything has to be a "war" on
something. Now we have supposedly religious people engaging in rhetoric that is violent and that uses violent imagery in order to preach "peace"

This is, to me, merely another "business" that is going to exploit the newly conquored and occupied country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joefree1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
42. Borg-agains?
"Resistance is futile."



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #42
52. Beautiful! Borg-agains. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
43. These demagods may be biting off more than they can chew.
I say let them see the other side.

Nothing like learning a good old fashion lesson in
"experience".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
44. I am bothered that Fundamentalists
will be the only version of Chritianity that they will be exposed to. In my view, this gang is completely contrary to the teachings of Jesus.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. actually, Iraq does have a Catholic population
and had one under Saddam.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oldcoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Iraq already has Christians
However, these missionaries may refuse to recognize many Iraqis as Christians because they are Catholics and these missionaries have a very narrow view of what is or is not a Christian. You may have caught that "wonderful" line in the article about "pseudo-Christian" groups flooding Iraq.

I am afraid that this is simply just another example of the United States shooting itself in the foot. Our government is so in love with the idea of faith-based-charities that it is not seeing the larger picture. The Iraqis already mistrust the United States and the presence of missionaries will only make the situation worse. Their presence will endanger coalition troops and Christian Iraqis. The soldiers have enough to worry about without these idiots showing up. Not only will the soldiers be expected to protect them but the soldiers will probably end up having to clean any messes they create. Terrorist groups will be able to use these missionaries to appeal to those Muslims who really believe that this war was a religious crusade.

I also fear for Iraq's Christian population. Under Hussein, Iraqi Christians were allowed some religious freedom. Unfortunately, their future is no longer certain. Iraqi Muslims may associate Iraqi Christians with the Southern Baptists and assume that Iraqi Christians are also interested in converting them. They may be less willing to tolerate Iraqi Christians in the future. Moreover, they may view any new religious converts with suspicion. Of course this will not effect these missionaries. After all, they will have returned to the safety of the United States where they will entertain their friends with stories about how they saved those "heathen" Iraqis.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. That's what fundie missionaries have done in Russia
Never mind that Russia has a literally thousand-year-old Christian tradition. It's not the right flavor.

Now the culturally sensitive thing for the fundies to do would have been to ask the Orthodox Church what it needed and then supply it. I'm sure the Orthodox would have appreciated funds to restore some of the historically and artistically significant churches that were trashed under Stalin.

But no, the fundies have to go and indulge in "sheep stealing," the practice of wooing people who are already Christians and convincing them that theirs is the wrong kind. Yes, the wrong kind with a distinguished millennium-long tradition of art, music, literature, and mysticism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
45. "The Muslim religion is an antichrist religion." Well, so is Judaism!
According to the fundamentalists' own theology, as quoted in the article:

He describes Islam as "false". He cited St John's Gospel, saying: "Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist."

Mr Hanna concluded: "The Muslim religion is an antichrist religion."

The Telegraph


Well, Judaism also rejects the divinity of any man, including Jesus. According to these pukes, who once said that God did not listen to the prayers of Jews, we are also an antichrist religion.

I think we should send all of those missionary pukes to Iraq, and leave them there without any protection, their lives not worth one drop of our soldiers' blood. If God really loves them, He wouldn't let Iraqi bullets harm them in any way. What a better testament to their faith!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #45
60. So is every other religion that isn't "Bible based"
ie. strict literal reading of the bible with all its inconsistencies and errors in science.

Hence, they've got it in for:


  • Roman Catholics
  • the Anglican community (includes Episcopalean)
  • the Christian Orthodox churches (as noted above) including Coptic


and a whole list of others (whom I fail to mention only because I don't want to get it wrong)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
49. These fools are signing their own death warrants.
If they do wind up dead...oh well. They shouldn't be doing this.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jokerman93 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
51. This is a political powder-keg
If these missionaries become the victims of violence in Iraq, the fundamentalist population in Amerikaland will have their first martyrs and saints of the Apocalypse. They want to have proof that Christians are being persecuted -- and the war against Islam is a just and holy war.

There will be a hell-cry for blood against the idolaters and more war is what the Neocons want. They gotta keep the fires burning -- even justify the draft against the horrible enemies of God we are confronting!

I'm willing to go out on a limb here and say these missionaries are literally lambs to the slaughter.

Toast.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dawn Donating Member (876 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
53. This is awful. Missionaries are a plague on this earth.
It was eye-opening, traveling to Asia and seeing missionaries and Mormons travel all over Thailand, trying to convert "heathen" Buddhists to their religion.

I wish these kinds of Christians would just live and let live. Or learn from the Eastern faiths, which encourage you to find your own path and accept all religions with open arms.

I really don't know what can be done about this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Bill Shakespeare said something about lawyers...
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #53
64. Missionaries have done their fair share of good
and no, I'm not arguing both sides of the street.

There's a right way and wrong way of doing missionary work.

Basically it comes back down to "works" vs. "faith".

These people like to go over, destroy the existing social framework, leaving a vacuum (and a coupla dusty Bibles) in their wake leaving the door open for fascism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
57. I hope thousands of missionaries go over
there and don't come back. They can stay there as far as I'm concerned.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jamesarg Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
59. God is moving in Iraq.
I am a Democrat and I gave my life to Jesus when I was 18, that is three years ago. Everyone needs to know Jesus as their savior, not just Republicans, but Democrats, Communists, Libertarians, Socialists, Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Born again Christians, Agnostics, Athiests, nothings. It doesn't matter what you say your religion is or political party is, you need Jesus to save you from your sins. I am helping to prep some of those young missionaries who will be going over there, and yes I am a Democrat because I believe in the party, even if leftists athiests in the party don't believe in me.

- James
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Allah is moving in the US
I am a Democrat and I gave my life to Mohammad when I was 18, that is three years ago. Everyone needs to know Mohammad as their savior, not just Republicans, but Democrats, Communists, Libertarians, Socialists, Jews, Catholics, Born again Christians, Agnostics, Athiests, nothings. It doesn't matter what you say your religion is or political party is, you need Mohammad to save you from your sins. I am helping to prep some of those young missionaries who will be coming over here, and yes I am a Democrat because I believe in the party, even if leftists athiests in the party don't believe in me.

It all sounds the same when it comes from fundamentalist sources, doesn't it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. You are sending them to their deaths
and you're implying that only Republicans know Jesus as their saviour. (sarcasm on) How very Christian of you. (sarcasm off)

Have you even bothered to find out what happens to "missionaries" under Sharia law?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jazzgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. Sorry James that you are so misguided but
you can't go telling people who have a different culture and religion that your beliefs are superior to theirs. Besides being dangerous its...stupid!. All you're doing is helping a bunch of innocent kids go over and get themselves killed. The best thing you can do is try to talk those kids into staying out of a situation they don't even need to be in!

Jazzgirl
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oldcoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #59
74. You need to think this out
TrogL and Jazzgirl are right to warn you about the dangers that you are exposing your missionaries to. Realize that Americans are not the most popular people in Iraq. Many Iraqis justifiably blame the United States for the poor conditions there such as high unemployment and a lack of basic services. Many have suffered greatly because of this invasion. They have lost their homes and their loved ones. They are also suspicious about the motives for the invasion. Members of this board have posted numerous articles about the fact that the Bush administration has not kept its promises to the Iraqi people. Now why should the Iraqis welcome a couple of spoiled American kids who think that they know what's best for them?

You should also think about the people you want to convert. Your missionaries will probably have some success converting some Muslims. However, anyone who chooses to convert to your brand of Christianity will be taking enormous risks. First, any Iraqi who regularly associates with Americans is risks being labeled a collaborator. Do you know what frequently happens to collaborators during a time of war? Their fellow countrymen view them as traitors and kill them. You also do not know how their families will react to having a Christian in the family.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue Gardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #59
82. Unbelievable Arrogance
These people already have their own religion, what they don't need right now is your proselytizing. And no, I don't need Jesus to save me from my sins. If that works for you, fine, but stop trying to tell me and everyone else what you think we need. Maybe you could try reading about other religions and cultures before reaching such a definite conclusion at such a young age.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bertha Venation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-03 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #59
94. jamesarg, all due respect...
...I was exactly like you for so many years, firm in my belief that Jesus was the only "way."

Time and experience taught me a lot. You're young. You'll be hurt desperately, and you'll learn.

I don't mean to sound condescending. I just wish to suggest that you look beyond what you are so very sure of this moment to realize that as a matter of fact, there is more. God is so much bigger than you think God is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sujan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #59
95. your arrogance will not help you in life
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
65. I'm getting really tired of people lumping all missionaries together
Many churches send missioniaries abroad, mostly to under-developed countries. Most are attempting to do "good works". They:


  • build schools
  • build hospitals and clinics
  • build infrastructure (roads, wells, sewage treatment)
  • build housing
  • teach agriculture
  • teach modern medicine
  • teach math, science and agricultural teachers (my parents did that for several years (not as missionaries))
  • drive people to clinics and government offices


after the work is done, then they get the Bibles out. To borrow an AA phrase, it's by "attraction not advertisement".

A co-worker of mine (from a moderate fundie church) was looking forward to spending his vacation digging ditches. Even he understood the need to help first, preach second.

On the other hand, my partner has talked to many hard-core fundie kids about to go over to Africa on "missionary work". They have zero concept of the culture, the conditions or of any meaningful work that could be done over there. They'd hurt themselves with a hammer. They go on and on about how they're going to "save souls" with a stack of Bibles. Not a word about helping.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #65
69. Proselytizing is wrong!
Edited on Sat Dec-27-03 11:29 PM by IndianaGreen
It was wrong to convert the African slaves to Christianity as it was to convert Hawaiians. I won't even go into the horrors of proselytizing by the Spaniards and Portuguese in the Americas.

On edit:

I highly recommend the following book. It is a terrific book. Read the part about "rice bowl" Christians.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. This is not a case of people needing some religion
Edited on Sat Dec-27-03 11:40 PM by NNN0LHI
These people have their own well established religion. There are NGO's who are not affiliated with any religion and who do great work. I also agree that there are religious organizations such as Catholic Charities http://www.catholiccharities-md.org/ who do some really great work. There are many others too. But I really do not think that this is either the time or the place for any proselytizing at all. Even after the work gets done. I fear proselytizing will only lead to continued violence and mayhem in this part of the world, and I would discourage anyone attempting to do so. History is not one our side on this one.

Don

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jazzgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #65
80. Agree on the helping TrogL.
Helping is fine. Its great! That to me should be a church's main function. Just leave the "converting" out of it. Helping is a great opportunity to learn about another culture. But I wouldn't even try to convince Iraqi's to switch religions. They have just as much right to believe what they believe as Christians do. Remember....we're making them free!!??!!

Jazzgirl
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #65
84. During the colonial era
the missionaries provided the ONLY schooling available to indigenous people in the colonized areas. (The civic authorities would have preferred to keep 'em ignorant and working in the mines or plantations.) In doing so, they trained the generation of leaders who took over after independence.

They also provided the only modern medical care.

In the very earliest days, missionaries tended to limit their charitable work to people who had converted to Christianity. This led to the phenomenon of "rice Christians," people who would pretend to convert in order to get food aid or whatever else the missionaries were providing. The missionaries recognized that this was spiritually dangerous, so they began offering their services to everyone, regardless of religion.

Today, wherever there is famine or war, you will find Catholic Charities, Lutheran World Relief, the Friends Service Committee, and Episcopal Relief and Development helping people without any religious requirements.

However, Iraq is a different case entirely. It has an educated population and had modern medical care and infrastructure before the sanctions and the wars. Furthermore, Muslims are particularly resistant to conversion, since "apostasy" (renouncing one's religion) is considered one of the worst possible sins in Islam. Converts have been killed in Pakistan.

Sending in a bunch of clueless suburban megachurch brats with their Four Spiritual Laws and little or no knowledge of Arabic language or Iraqi culture is a recipe for disaster. I don't doubt their sincerity, just their smarts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. Four Spiritual laws???
:wtf: is that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. Campus Crusade used to go around with these pamphlets
on The Four Spiritual Laws in the 1970s, trying to scare people into joining them.

Let's see if I can remember what they were:

1. People are utterly sinful.

2. God is just, so everybody deserves to go to Hell (only they called it "eternal separation from God") if judged on their own merits.

3. However, God is also loving, so he sent Jesus to take the punishment for the sins of all humanity.

4. But #3 goes into effect only if you "accept Jesus" and join us. Otherwise, it's "eternal separation from God" for you, buddy.

Okay, I'm paraphrasing and being cynical, but that's the basic idea.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. God: "Punishment of an innocent is better than no punishment."
I won't touch such God with a 10-parsec pole.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #84
91. I have the utmost respect
for religious charities that don't proselitize. Catholics, for example, do that a lot. Now, evangelicals, on the other hand...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #84
96. They are not just looking for converts
They believe that Armegedon will come once every person on earth has heard the gospel preached. So even if no one at all converts in Iraq (and some will undoubtedly in order to get fed), they are serving Jesus and helping to speed up his day of judgement and their day of delivery from this evil world that so persecutes them on a daily basis.

But remember, it's only islamic fundamentalists who are delusional and dangerous.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
67. How to win friends and influence people
....NOT!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Corgigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
72. Hostage Video
I hope I'm wrong on this however I bet we get to watch one of these tapes on the local news soon. Then the USA will be forking over big bucks to save these people, if we can. Bush and friends didn't care at all when journalist were being killed until Daniel Pearl. All the Fundie Iraq's have to do is grab a pretty little whitebread American crying on tape about missing Mommy and Daddy and we're going to be running all over town trying to save them.

Should be some type of special high risk insurance for rescues before they are allowed over there, or in any war area.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Grins Donating Member (508 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #72
85. Been Done!!!
"All the Fundie Iraq's have to do is grab a pretty little whitebread American..."

They did...sorta.

Remember the press going nutzy over that young, blonde, female, Christian "volunteer" that went to Afghanistan to spread the word of Jesus many months before 9/11? As I recall, she was already in custody by that time, and no word to her parents back in the bible belt. (Well,...they were praying for her.) She was there when the US went after the Taliban. She was finally locked up in a shipping container in the middle of nowhere before she was turned over to the American troops. (The power of prayer no doubt...and Special Forces.) She was released just before Christmas as I recall. (Parents gave the standard, "Praise Jesus" line.) When she got back to the US, the media did a Jessica Lynch on her. Damned idiot then said she wanted to go back! Please go. And good riddance.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
73. Moslems have never been susceptible to conversion
Edited on Sun Dec-28-03 01:18 AM by starroute
As far as I know it's all been the other way -- Islam has expanded continuously, and has almost never retreated. The only area I can think of which was Moslem at one time and became Christian is Spain -- and that took the Spanish Inquisition to arrange.

Christianity has been able to pick off African animists and East Asian Buddhists because it offers certain things in the way of fervor and promises of salvation that those more laid-back religions do not. Evangelical Protestantism has made inroads among Catholics and Eastern Orthodox because it is more populist and seems more "modern."

But if there is a pecking order among religions, then Islam has to be at the very top. It is more streamlined, more theologically coherent, and more intertwined with ordinary society than any other. Moreover, Islam is able to "explain" the nature and meaning of the message of Jesus, whereas Christianity has no clue as to the nature and meaning of the message of Mohammed.

Those poor missionaries don't have a chance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #73
77. Their presence will bring about the Holy War the BushCo guys want.
If we get into the big dog fight, millions will die and most of them will be in the Middle East. What the Bush guys don't realize is we are going to have to kill them all. OOps, perhaps this is what they really want?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
78. The Crusade! idiots
I wondered when they would start yapping about their crusade...I KNEW they were waiting to go in there and bother people..
they get whapped, tough shite. Let the chips fall where they may. Morons.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rainbows Donating Member (158 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
79. Isn't this a War Crime ...
We just can't insult Iraqis enough through normal colonial aggression.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
81. WOW. Anthrax Coulter is dictating foreign policy for bush*.
The USA has:

1) Bombed their cities.

2) Killed (or removed) their leaders.

3) And now we are converting them to Xtianity. (attempting anyway)


This is Ann Coulter's plan for dealing with inferior cultures and religions.
It is comforting to know that educated, level headed, thoughtful, compassionate, adults are in charge of our foreign policy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Animator Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
83. The Inqusition.. What a Show.. the Inquisition..
We shouldn't be sending bible thumpers to Iraq... We should be sending the PEACE CORPS! The government funded organization founded by John F. Kenedy. The peace core could help big time over there, without expecting anything in return. I think they could provide the first positive impression of Americans to the Iraqi people. With almost every other American organization they've come into contact with, they could receive help, but there's always a catch. Peace Corps.. no catch. It shouldn't be too difficult to get volunteers who speak the language.

Many Americans do not realize this, but around the world, people can spot an American from a mile away. If you get people who have been abroad for awhile, they learn ways to dress and act, so they don't apear so overtly American. Blending in better makes for harder targets. I think it would be a good message to send... that not all Americans are out to take advantage of them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. excellent !
I like it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
88. Just What We All Need
A comic diversion. Let them go and get blown up. So much the better for the sanity of the rest of the world.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
97. That's ALL Iraq needs...
Thousands of clean-cut American youths wearing white, short-sleeve shirts and black ties, riding bicycles and carrying Bibles throughout Iraq. Bet they'll ride in pairs!

Will they be passing out copies of "The Watchtower?"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnziii Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
98. Is it only christians?
I lived in Saudi and no one ever pushed Islam on me.
I have known Jewish people and they never pushed their relion on me.
I have know Buddists and atheists and was never told I had to believe what they claim.

But I always have Christians telling me I'm going to hell if I don't convert.

Why such the push to believe their religion is the best?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truthspeaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #98
99. it's a successful strategy for gaining converts
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
missile_bender Donating Member (193 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-03 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
100. Seems to me missionary work is sinful
At the very least, there are sins of pride involved. Beyond that, missionary work is generally racist, doesn't respect other cultures or individuals, and often uses bribes and blackmai (not to mention propaganda an brain-washing) to get what they want.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Mon May 06th 2024, 04:29 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC