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CGowen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 12:51 PM
Original message
The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs re
Source: Daily Mail

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced

By MATTHEW HICKLEY - More by this author » Last updated at 00:13am on 10th November 2007

Comments Comments (6)
When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.

At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.

That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.

American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=492804&in_page_id=1811
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. I wonder what the Chinese navy is thinking about all this....
At the very least, that boat commander blew it big time unless he was unaware of his proximity to the exercise, which would be even more surprising. If he had stayed quiet the U.S. Navy would be none the wiser.
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Unless he did it on purpose.
A little hint to the schoolyard bully to let him know it might not be so easy to kick your ass?
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. maybe, but the loss of tactical advantage is considerable....
:shrug:
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AdHocSolver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
54. The Chinese gained a strategic advantage if their aim is to avoid a confrontation. n/t
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #54
68. Zactly right.
1. There is no chance this was an accident.
2. The Chinese were making a strategic decision to let the US know its capabilities.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
79. tactical advantage gives way to politcal/military warnings
all the time -- China & Iran are allies, aren't they?

Just think of the tactical advantages they have that they did not give away with this show, I mean after all, we had no idea that they have this capability.

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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. Iran aslo has some diesel/electric subs.
very, very quiet.

I haven't heard much about them lately.
Anyone know if they are still operational?
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Yes...like when China shot down one of their own satellites to demonstrate they could
deal with a 'star wars' attack from above. Just a way of saying..."BOO!"
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mallard Donating Member (460 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
64. Re: on purpose
That sounds about right!
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. "that boat commander blew it big time" - I doubt that.
We stage these events in what the Chinese can only view as their waters. Imagine if Russia staged huge naval exercises off of Cuba. It is an act of imperial arrogance on our part. The Chinese were most likely sending a rather obvious message that they are now a naval power to be reckoned with, at a time when US forces are not at all ready to take on new tasks outside the middle east.

"It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.

Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its "backyard"."

From the same article.

By the way, the Chinese manufacture just about everything we consuem and own huge chunks of our national debt. Our time on top is coming to an end.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. true-- it just seems that the tactical advantage of having infiltration capabilities...
...unknown to the U.S. Navy was a considerable advantage to sacrifice just to make the point.
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dantyrant Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Well...
If they were in an exercise who knows what they were seeing on their SONAR and other instruments. The Chinese may have been aware of some blind spot and wanted to give them a friendly wave, as it were. As if to say: don't do anything stupid, because we can do this again.
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
63. dantyrant
dantyrant

If they were in an exercise who knows what they were seeing on their SONAR and other instruments. The Chinese may have been aware of some blind spot and wanted to give them a friendly wave, as it were. As if to say: don't do anything stupid, because we can do this again.


Think what the chinese can do.. if they want to get the message abroad, if it was not a exercise?:.. If a Chinse Sub can do that, in peace time guess what they "may" do in a rather unfriendly matter...

If I was a Naval comander, i wil be really worry about what "CAN" happend, if the navel forces was to clash... The US Naval forces are the big gay on the block.. But you dont know what a little submarine "can" do, if they was willing, and capable to do it..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish, not my native language
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. If they have that capability
it would be really stupid to tip their hand. I'm betting on stupidity, all around.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
46. Thing is..... they're not a stupid people and they don't have stupid leaders.
Edited on Sat Nov-10-07 04:56 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
To give you just an inkling of how stupid our leaders, in this post-Thatcher UK, are, it takes more than twice as long for one of our trains to go from London to Fort William in Scotland (500 miles+), than it does to go from London to Lyon (slightly longer trip) - most of the latter trip, of course, being on the French railway system. A nice symmetry: half-wits make journeys twice as long.

Here is an interesting article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=446450&in_page_id=1811
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. So either this was an accident, which I doubt, or...
the Chinese obviously do not consider their sub capabilities a big secret to our military. I vote for the latter. China was responding to what they view as our insulting arrogant imperial power display by tweaking us publicly. I'm rather sure both nations have a fairly sound assesment of each other's capabilities.
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dantyrant Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. That's how I read this...
It's like Putin scheduling his own war games during the TOPOFF4/VIGILANT exercises a month ago.
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doublethink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. Wow talk about being stealth !!!
dantyrant .. your post count says 0 ..... wtf? Not sure how to welcome you to DU ..... officially you haven't posted anything, but I'm responding to a post by you aren't I! Peace anyway. :hi:
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dantyrant Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. LOL
cheers...

I like to fly beneath the radar, but this is ridiculous. I've probably posted over ten comments now...
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
33. Not necessarily unknown.
Hiding in bottom clutter, for example, izn't exactly rocket science.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
45. ...or maybe it was considered to be one of the least of their more
recent accomplishments; one which they could well afford to divulge to Western nations, whose half-witted corporatist leaders think that MODERNISATION means reducing the size of their country's manufacturing industry (and just about every other industry), and outsourcing the jobs from what remains of it, abroad. Electric motors! Tee hee!
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
77. If they are unknown they have no deterrent effect
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. I think this was done on purpose to scare the crap out of the carrier group's commander
The newer class of diesel-electric submarines are a lot quieter than our nuclear subs.

Get used to the idea of China become the superpower of the 21st century, just as we became the top dog last century.

What will be the reaction of the American public when they find Chinese bases on the Moon, long before we return?
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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
43. It was a show of force
Message: We can nail your aircraft carriers whenever we want...

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mahatmakanejeeves Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
49. I agree with you.
Edited on Sat Nov-10-07 04:38 PM by mahatmakanejeeves
It was a huge mistake on sub commander's part to make his presence known. It would have been much better for him to hang out undetected.

Also, is there a date on this incident? It seems to me that this is identical to a story that happened about six months ago. The article is recent, but it didn't say when this incident occurred. I don't have the time to Google now, but I think this is old news.

One more thing: The Daily Mail isn't exactly authoritative. Did all the celebrity pictures on the home page not give that away?
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Islander Expat Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
60. YOU asked for it Buddy!
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. I feel safer.
:scared:
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kamtsa Donating Member (226 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. Chineese submarines are easy to detect
Just watch for dead fishes with led poisoning.
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tomg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. And the people from Red Lobster and
Long John Silvers scooping them up.
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
7. Boy, they're good
at sending big and silent messages...blowing up satellites, bobbing up on the fleet. "Hello, were here, haven't forgotten the rapid growth of Chinese military supremacy, have we?"
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dantyrant Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. My thoughts exactly...
I saw that headline and said HOLY SHIT.
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bigworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. MA-OWNED!
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downindixie Donating Member (321 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
17. Where is the MSM on this.
Covering Bush's butt! Thats where!
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angstlessk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
18. first 9/11, then nukes on planes, now enemy subs popping up in front of
the navy's nose..WHAT THE FUCK ARE THEY SPENDING OUR MONEY ON AT THE PENTAGON??? ANYONE KNOW? ANYONE?
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dantyrant Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Depleted Uranium's not cheap. n/t
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Sanity Claws Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. How can you have 0 posts?
The message I'm responding to has to count as one.
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dantyrant Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. Good question!
No idea...

Anyone?
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Blackwater
that is all
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
53. "enemy"???
I hope to hell we don't consider China an enemy!
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
20. 3 years ago a russian fighter flew
over the flight deck of an american carrier off the coast of japan ...the pilot sent e mail pictures to the carrier. this was from an article in "proceedings" magazine which also printed the picture. the excuse was the russians usually fly at a certain time so they were not looking for the jet at that time...ya they did`t turn the radar in that direction..
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williesgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
22. One more * success story. They fuck up everything they touch. Unfortunately for the US, it's our
military, Constitution, Bill of Rights and on and on. rec'd
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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
23. Sounds like a few here already think war with China is inevitible.
A tactical advantage is one used in actual conflict. Holding such close to ones chest suggests a will or desire to use it.

Revealing this particular capability, doesn't actually hurt its tactical utility. We were doing the same to the Yanks years ago with our Oberon subs, and they never managed to find a counter. I doubt the Chinese are unaware of this.

Strategically the Chinese have just told the Yanks that they can at any time they please, gut the US Navy. This on top of pointing out that it can neutralise one of the US's other great tactical and strategic advantages at will.

China is saying loud and clear, "We do not want war. But if you bring it to us: WE WILL HURT YOU BAD!"

One has to wonder what their next "demonstration" will be.
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kelligesq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Actually, China has a small border with Afghanistan n Iraq - personally I've thought
Edited on Sat Nov-10-07 03:02 PM by kelligesq
for a long time they're going to get sick and tired or
*ushco fooling around down there and march through those passes and take over the oil in Iraq - after all they need the oil too for their growing industrialization. Agreements were in place for pipelines to go to China, East and West for oil found under the Caspian Sea, which Azberjain has a
border on. Seems to have fallen through cause China making deals all over the place with others. Geo-politics. Explains why Putin cracked down on Georgia.
He cant get to the shore of the Caspian unless he goes through Georgia.

And if you really want to know something interesting, look up whose on the Chamber of Commerce of the country of Abzerjain. Cheney's married daughter, Armitage, a few other fairly well known names in political circles, and friends of friends of people in high places whose tie-ins you have to search for more carefully or know history - wink, wink.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. BINGO ^^^ n/t
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
26. I was around an incident much like this one.
We were TDA on USS Rathburn (DE 1057, since decommissioned).

We were off Guam, with the Enterprise group.

I was on board to "guard" some nuke sims.

So we were conducting ASROC exercise when a Russian sub popped up about 100 yards away. They actually walked out on deck and waved at us.

The ship I was on had the most advanced sonar system in the Navy, the first rubber dome ever installed on a warship.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. I remember this sort of stuff was routine in the 'good old days' of the cold war.
Each side would poke around at the others' war games, and if given the chance would jab a thumb into a rib for shits and giggles.

The PNACer's enemy numero uno is not their made up islamo-fascism threat, it is and always has been China. China is the barrier to the permanent world empire they are trying to create.
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dantyrant Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Well, you can't say that Russia isn't a threat too.
Even moreso given that they're a package deal now. They have a mutual defense pact.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #36
81. and consider the China/Russsia/Iran friendship
They are allies and we are threatening air strikes on Iran.

That gives a whole new meaning to Idiot in Charge.

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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
29. Its possibly another manufactured vulnerability that could be used
to promote another big defense contract. Probably more US subs.
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Wise Doubter Donating Member (458 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
35. Maybe we use a Chinese made sonar device .....
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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leftist_not_liberal Donating Member (408 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. LOL!
Nice jawb!
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Or it was made by one of the companies charged with civilian
reconstruction in Iraq :)
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
52. Purchased at Wal-Mart? n/t
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AdHocSolver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #35
55. This is no joke. Many electronic components and airplane parts are made in China.
It is very possible that a considerable amount of our military hardware was manufactured in China.
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bagrman Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
39. The Chinesse already have the upper hand, Carriers are sitting ducks.
The attached article goes into how badly the position the 5th fleet is in being in the Persian
gulf. The Chinese and Russians could never match the might of one of our carrier groups so they developed a way to destroy them With out spending all the money. A stealth cruse missile with 100+ mile range, with anti missile defense avoidance built in. They don't need a torpedo any more.

Latr




http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18687.htm
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
40. I guess they are telling us "Stay out of Taiwan and Iran"
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
41. McHAALLLE!!!
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KeepItReal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
42. This is ether old news or the Chinese are making a habit of this
"(AP) A Chinese submarine came close to the USS Kitty Hawk carrier group in the Pacific Ocean last month, a top U.S. naval commander confirmed Tuesday, adding the encounter could have triggered an "unforeseen" incident."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/14/world/main2179694.shtml

Looks like November '06
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sss1977 Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
44. you forgot to mention...
about how the Chinese sub then pulled up alongside the aircraft carrier and offered free Aqua Dots to everyone...
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An_Opened_Hand Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
47. Subs getting within torpedo range of a super carrier, Not New.
I remember reading an article with an interview with an American Sub captain, who said many times during war games he had the carrier of the opposing side in his scope and could have sunk it with little trouble. The reason he didn't was that he was under orders not to. This would have ended the games to quickly.

Remember the officer who was on the enemy side (Iran) during the war game just before we invaded Iraq, who sunk the battle groups carrier using unconventional tactics (small boats, etc)? The Navy paused the games, re-floated the carrier, told the "enemy" commander that he couldn't use those techniques and played out the rest of the games so that the Navy would win. I don't remember the officers name right off, but I know he retired soon after this.

Militaries, through out history, have been caught using outdated tactics and they really hate being called on them. Especially by subordinates.

My point is, there is nothing special about what the Chinese did. Our Navy has be vulnerable for years. The general public has just been kept in the dark about the fact that our modern navy is really designed to intermediate nations who either land locked or don't have an effective navy. If our battle groups got into a real sea battle, subs, cruse missiles, a lot of small fast boats, we'd be in a lot of pain.


Here's a link to a book review, that on top of trashing the book, it notes this little nugget the author left out. (I love that I found this at a Conservative site.)

http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2007_03_12/review1.html

(the snip below is the eleventh paragraph from the top. see last sentence.)

-Snip-

Nowhere does Boot discuss the campaigns of the German U-boats against Britain in both World Wars and that of the U.S. Navy’s submarines against Japan in World War II. Yet these were vastly more strategically important than the carrier battles he celebrates. Boot also excludes the key fact that America’s 12 nuclear aircraft carriers have been sitting ducks for fast-attack submarines since 1968, when a fast Soviet nuclear-powered attack submarine matched the USS Enterprise at top speed in the Pacific Ocean. That moment, vividly and thoroughly discussed in Patrick Tyler’s Running Critical, was as epochal a moment in the shift of the strategic balance at sea as Gen. Billy Mitchell’s sinking of the former German battleship Ostfriesland in a trial attack off Hampton Roads on July 21, 1921. Boot has an excellent account of the latter event but says nothing of the humiliation of the Enterprise. Since 1968, U.S. submarines have routinely scored disabling hits on American carriers in U.S. Navy war games, and the hits, Navy insiders know, are routinely unacknowledged in the official assessments of the maneuvers.

-Snip-

This isn't the article I read origially, but does confirm what I remember.
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AdHocSolver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #47
57. The much-touted antimissile system ("starwars") is another failure spun to look like success.
Every so often we are told about a test where a US missile is fired at and "knocks out" an incoming "enemy" rocket. What they don't tell the public is that there is no real "test" as the U.S. missile is given the launch point and time and the trajectory of the rocket it is supposed to shoot down. Without getting this information beforehand, the defense missile doesn't come close to knocking out the enemy rocket. Even when provided all of this information, it fails more than half the tests.
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #47
72. We sunk a nuclear cruiser
Edited on Sat Nov-10-07 11:11 PM by Ezlivin
Exercise Colonel Potlatch. 1979. Our boat was one of the oldest and noisiest boats in the fleet (twin screws tend to be noisy) and we played the part of the Russians. We sunk the USS Long Beach, even though it had highly touted ASW capabilities. In fact, we sunk every surface ship we engaged. (Note: It was a simulated sinking, in case you wondered.)

Surface guys always bragged about how they could "hunt us down", but they never once proved it. We made noise, we ran at high speeds, we banged around and they still couldn't get us. And they knew if they tried to ping us they'd be instant targets for our torpedoes.

And, Jesus, but we wondered what we could have done with a Los Angeles class boat....
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #72
76. I once meet a Sailor that told me the same about an old Diesel he was on in the 1970s
Sunk all of the ships they engaged (including a Carrier). Again it was training exercise not real, but the lesson was learned, in areas close to shore, surface ships are sitting ducks. The real issue is how far do the Carriers need to be, to be safe.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #47
75. I can disagree with some points.
First is the effect of the sinking of the Ostfriesland in July 1921. Mitchell broke the engagement rules to sink the ship. The Navy wanted to see how the ships would sink, NOT just to sink the ship. Thus the rules requiring all plans to use small bombs. After each bombing mission the crew of the ship would reenter the ships check the damage and the flooding. To maximize the flooding all of the water tight door were kept OPEN. The ships were also stationary so easy for the plans to hit and the attack was in full daylight. Conditions NOT always the case, especially in the North Atlantic. Mitchell disobeyed orders and put bombs on his planes that would clearly sink the ship. Even the Navy at the time accepted that fact. Showing the planes could sink a ship was NOT the purpose of the test, but HOW the ships would need to be designed in the Future to minimize the affect of such bombers.

In fact one of the big differences between WWI and WWII designed battleships was the movement of deck armor UP. When the only fear was was shells from other ships (or Torpedo's) deck Armor was kept low to give maximize protection to the engine and haul of the ship. If you lost all of the Guns, the ship could still survive do to its engine still running. Thus the main deck armor was low, to work best with the side armor against shells. The distances the shells were being fired any shell would come in at a low angle. As the Shell hit the ship, the shell would penetrate the armor at an angle. Thus if the deck armor was 6 inches thick, the shell, hitting the armor at an angle may have to go through 8-9 inches of steel (Tank armor adopted this same angle toward the end of WWII, for the same reason, forcing any shell to penetrate the armor at an angle, thus forcing the shell to go through a thickness greater than the nominal thickness of the armor).

Back to Battleships. The purpose of the test was to see HOW the battleships would take bombs dropped from Planes. Such bombs would hit the Deck Armor straight on, i.e. the minimal possible thickness for the shell to penetrate. Other tests shows what the Navy had tried to find out in this test, to minimize the damage caused by a bomb, they had to move the main deck Armor UP to provide the maximum space for any bomb that penetrated that armor to blown up in (And thus minimize the damage to the Ship). Thus during WWII, the newer designed battleships tended to have the main deck armor higher then the older WWI battleships (There were exceptions to this rule, the Bismark was a WWI design the Germans did a quick update on and built, looking at the Bismark it looked modern, but the basic design was obsolete do to its low deck armor). While the Bismark's steering was knocked out by a torpedo plane, it still took British Battleships to sink her.

Battleships proved their worth at several battles in WWII. The sinking of the Bismark is the most famous. The main reason was air plane operations were difficult to do at night. During the German invasion of Norway in April 1940 you had the first time a battleship (Actually a Heavy Cruiser) took on a Carrier. The Carrier had to wait for its planes to return, and while waiting the Battleships came up to her at maximum speed and sunk the Carrier. In 1943 the Survivors of Pearl Harbor (which was almost all of the Battleships) had been repaired and ended up engaging the Japanese Fleet, sinking the Japanese ships including at least one Battleship. NO aircraft was involved for it was a night action. In fact no Modern designed battleship was sunk by aircraft during WWII EXCEPT if it operated without air cover (the Yamoto being the most famous example). Part of this was do to the higher priority given to Carriers, but part of this was do to the fact Battleships were designed to take hits and unless hit several times did not sink (In fact the USS Pennsylvania a WWI era battleship, sister ship to the Arizona, even survived a near Atom Bomb blast in 1947, the Navy torpedoed it themselves to sink it afterward for the Navy did NOT need it any more.

Plans were made for new Battleships after WWII, but someone pointed out who they would be used against, Congress killed those plans the first plans for what we now call Super Carriers. The best story on this was Greece in 1946. The US sent in the Missouri and Stalin told the Communists in Bulgaria to Stop Supporting Communists in Greece on the ground to hold Greece you need a Fleet and Russia did NOT have one at that time (Nor did Stalin have any plan on building one, that would NOT occur till after his death). Thus the Navy had a problem, how do you show the Navy is important when the main enemy has no fleet and limited coast line? The Battleships were out, the Navy did NOT even finish the last two Iowa Class battleships nor even start building the Montana Class Battleships. The Navy had a hard time convincing Congress that it would be even a factor in any War with Russia, till Korea when the Carriers started to provide Air Cover. The Modern Super Carrier concept came out of Korea, a large Carrier to provide a base for attacks inland. Carriers were NOT to fight Naval battles (and have NOT since 1945, the closest being the British in the Falklands in the early 1980s, but the Argentina Navy once it landed the Troops stayed out of the subsequent battle especially after its main surface ship a WWII Ex-US Heavy Cruiser was sunk by a British Submarine).

Given that the purpose of the Navy is to impose our will on another country, battleships are no longer needed and thus not built (Through some people want to bring them back, either as a all missile launcher low lying ship, or as a gun ship, with the guns to provide artillery support for shore operations). Carriers are preferred do to their ability to have their aircraft drop bombs almost everywhere. The Change is more a reflections of potential targets and lack of opposition Navy then anything else.

Things Begin to change in the late 1950s with the death of Stalin in 1953. Khrushchev saw the advantages of a Navy and started to build on. His efforts were slow until after the Cuban Missile Criss where the US used it fleet to block Soviet Cargo Ships form reaching Cubs. The building of a Soviet Fleet really took off when Brezhnev replaced Khrushchev in 1964. Missiles technology was just coming in and the Soviets saw this as a way to minimize the advantages of the US Navy at that time. The Soviets would have fishing Trawlers all over the place, to act as spys on the US Navy but also as stations for the early cruise missiles the Soviets were using to get to the Carriers. The US Navy had to response, and the response was to accept the fact that close to shore or in closed in water the Carriers were easy targets to these new Soviet weapons. The Russian adoption of Nuclear Attack subs enhanced their capabilities to destroy the US Fleet. The main disadvantage the Soviets had was the limited ways Soviet Ships could leave Russia. The Bosporus limited Russian access to the Mediterranean. The Bering Straits limited access from most of Russia to the Pacific and the North sea limited Russian access to the Atlantic (and this was where the Main Russian fleet has always operated out of). The Russians nuclear subs were louder than US subs of the time period do to the Soviet use of double hauls on such subs, but their Diesel subs were quieter than US Nukes (The US had quite Making Diesel Subs in the early 1950s). These silent diesel subs were NOT intended for deep ocean, but the shadow seas of the Arctic, North, Baltic, Black and Mediterranean (as while as the North Japanese Sea).

Together with the Soviet Surface Navy, the Soviet Navy Air Force (all land based till the late 1960s) these forces were to force the US Navy away from any area the Red Army was operating in. Note NOT defeat the US Navy, but to drive the US Navy away from the coasts. Thus the comment that Carriers were nothing but Missile Magnets by the late 1960s. This was true ONLY IN THOSE AREAS CLOSE TO THE COASTS. If the Navy was able to stay 500-1000 miles away, the Carriers had enough means to defend themselves, but such distances reduced the effectiveness of the Fleet Air Arm for each plane would haver to carry more fuel do to the longer distances needed to travel AND less planes could go, since you will need to in-flight refuel them to and from the targets (Planes would have to be launched to do the in-flight refueling, thus reducing planes available for the bombing mission). This also put more strain on US re-enforcement of NATO ground forces, given the ability of the Russian ATTACK subs to attack convoys in the Atlantic (And the need for the Carriers to provide air Cover for both the Ships Convoys AND the Air Convoys to Europe, most troops would be flown to Europe by 1960, but even today their supplies would come by Ship).

This was the Situation form the late 1960s to 1989 when the Soviet Union collapsed and with it, the Russian's ability to do damage to the US Carriers (Do to a general disarmament and retirement of ALL ships by the Russians and thus less training do to no money). While the ability disappeared do to lack of money, HOW the Soviets were going to neutralize the US Carriers remain a possibly. This is what the Chinese are up to at present. Unlike the old Soviet Union, the entire Chinese Coast can be use to launch ships. While Japan, Taiwan and the Philippines can provide a barrier, all are within range of Chinese land based Aircraft without refueling and thus any ships can push through these barriers given air cover. The big question is what does China want, control of the Sea of Japan and the South China Sea (i.e. the water between China and Japan, Taiwan and the Philippines) or does China want control BEYOND Japan, Taiwan and the Philippines? An alternative may be control between China and Japan, Taiwan and the Philippines AND no US presence west of Guam (i.e. China does not control the water east of Japan, Taiwan and the Philippines but neither does the US). I lean to this, for it means China domination of all of its Neighbors and minimal US presence around China.

I do NOT think China cares who controls Guam or the Pacific proper as long as China is the dominate Country around all the countries around China. Adopting the old Soviet policy of land base air support for naval operations would be sufficient to control the South China Sea and the Sea of Japan. A couple of smaller carriers to at least challenge the US off the east coast of Japan, Taiwan and the Philippines would enhance this move. The US Carriers are to expensive to risk in the seas between China and Japan, Taiwan and the Philippines but can provide a show of force US force in the Western Pacific. Chinese Carriers could force the US Carriers further East, thus making it harder for the US to project power into the South China Sea and the Sea of Japan area.

Thus the key is what are China's intentions? The Chinese do NOT need carriers to Control the Water of their Coast. US Carriers have been nothing but missile magnets in that same area since the 1960s (NOT enough room to maneuver). It is a different story in the Pacific proper, the US Carriers are in their element in the Pacific (and the Indian Ocean and most of the Atlantic, but as the Carriers get closer to land, the more they will be subject to possible missile attack).

Are Carriers useful? The Answer is yes, but you have to keep them out of any area where missiles could be launch against them with minimal time for the carriers to respond. In fact I think it would be better to pull out the old WWII battleships (The four Iowa Class, the sole surviving North Carolina Class and the two surviving North Dakota Class Class Battleships) if you want capital ships in the Persian Gulf. They were all designed to take massive amount of damage, much more than Carriers, if updated with Radar and Antimissile defense systems they all will survive longer in some place like the Persian Gulf then any Carrier or any other ship. Their 16 inch guns have a limited range (With new rounds just less than 20 miles), but the guns could be used to make the gulf safe for Carriers (i.e. force the Iranians to fire their Missiles at these old Battleships, and pound the launch sites with their Guns, hit the launch sites with cruse missiles launched from the battleships or even just radio the Carriers where to launch an Air Attack. Would we lose all of the Battleships in such a situation, the answer is yes, but the Carriers will be able to do what they do best, launch a massive air Attack from a safe distance.

Things have changed since the 1950s when the US was the in reality the Sole Naval Power (France and England had Navies, but both were inferior to the US Navy). The coasts are much more dangerous. Carriers need time to protect themselves against such threats and to do so the Carriers MUST be away from the Coast. Ships today MUST be prepared for attacks using Anti-Ship missiles from almost any size ship, land or air (and often from all three at the same time). To defend oneself one must have time to react, to get that time you must be a safe distance from areas where such missiles could be launched from (Or be able to take a few hits like the old Battleships). This restricts what the Carriers can do, but the Carriers are still useful, just like the Battleships were still useful in WWII.

Ostfriesland
http://german-navy.tripod.com/sms_bb_helgoland-ost-photos.htm

List of US Battleships:
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/battleships/bb-list1.html
The North Carolina Class originally had two ships, The North Dakota Four Ships, all decommissioned in 1947 after less then six years of use. The sister ship to the North Carolina was sold for Scape in 1961, as was two of the South Dakota Class in 1962. The North Carolina and the Three Surviving South Dakota Class Ships War Memorials. Both classes were smaller and lighter then the later Iowa Class, but with the same amount of Armor.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #47
80. wiki has that story on Millenium Challenge 2002
If you think our military is so overwhelming, that puts you in the same place as the french in 1939.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
48. The sub did was diesel-electrics always do...
Get in the path of the surface ships and let them come to you. D/E boats are among thw quietest in the world when sitting still and running on batteries.

Our navy tends to use passive (listening) sonar rather than active (pinging) sonar. Remember all the shit the Navy has to deal with whenever they try to conduct an active sonar test off of Hawaii? Greenpease and PETA and such screaming about the sonar confusing whales and killing fish.

We use passive sonar because we drop sonar buoys in the water from aircraft and helicopers. The subs can't hear us dropping them (parachutes), so they don't know where to avoid. If they were active, they could chart out the sonobuoys and avoid them.

Our cruisers, destroyers, and frigates also have towed sonars. They often do a "sprint and drift" maneuver, racing ahead at full speed for a few minutes, then slowing to a crawl and listening carefully.

We also use dipping sonars that are unreeled from a winch on a hovering helicopter to listen or ping, as well as aircraft-mounted Magnetic Anomaly Detectors (MAD) to pick up the steel of a submarine hull under the water.

Active aonar also vastly increases the range as which a submarine could hear and track the surface ships, which would allow them to report the position of the fleet from dozens or hundreds of miles away.

So we tend to be quiet and listen for the enemy subs. But if the D/E boat was already ahead of us by either design or accident, all they had to do was be wery wery quiet to get up close and personal with us.

The hard part, of course, is getting in front of us without being heard. Which, apparently, this Chinese sub was able to accomplish.
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Esra Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. For further education, I recommend a movie called
"The Bedford Incident".
Yes, it all ends in tears.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. And a nuclear blast.
IIRC, Sidney Poiter was in it. :-(
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
56. If the Chinese captain was actually good...nobody would have known he was there.
Why did he surface at all ?
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dantyrant Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. To send a message. n/t
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #58
78. wrong answer. always run silent
Edited on Sun Nov-11-07 09:54 AM by ohio2007
never hear stories about US subs being chased out of foreign coastal waters ...

but then again,
on edit.....Maybe this "leak" is intended to fund Lockheed projects in ASW ?

..it seems to be scaring people on this forum ya know ;)
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CGowen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. It is mentioned in PNAC
Already potential adversaries
from China to Iran are investing in quiet
diesel submarines, tactical ballistic missiles,
cruise and other shore- and sea-launched
anti-ship missiles, and other weapons that
will complicate the operations of U.S. fleets
in restricted, littoral waters. The Chinese
navy has just recently taken delivery of the
first of several planned Sovremenny class
destroyers, purchased along with supersonic,
anti-ship cruise missiles from Russia, greatly
improving China’s ability to attack U.S.
Navy ships

China’s acquisition of modern Russian
destroyers and supersonic anti-ship
cruise missiles will complicate U.S.
surface fleet operations.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf
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ToolTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
59. Wasn't this one of the things that a deep spy possibly sold us out on?
Edited on Sat Nov-10-07 06:52 PM by ToolTex
Several years ago. Who was it, maybe Aldredge Aims? I'm not sure, but there was some top secret quiet running propeller manufacturing technology, divulged by a spy in DC. And I think he was selling to the Chinese. My mind is pretty foggy on this but I do remember the quiet running propeller technology was involved.
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. ToolTex
ToolTex

It was a story in the 1980s where Tecnology for quiet running propelles was been sold to the sovjets.. And it was a hell to the governments, on both side of the atlantic when they discovered who was given the tecnology

Even who dangrous, and treatcheus Mr Albrigde Aims was, he was not the source of that "problem" it was rather a shell company for the USSR, who was bying tecnology, and the plans for the metals from european countrys.. It was even here in Norway, some of the technology was been exported, first to the shell company, and then smugled into the sovjet, to be used in a new class of submarine...

The USSR in the 1980s have not geting the silent running submarines, if it was not for the spying of western techology... And today the russians have som verry silent submarines.. Even then, they dosent have the funds to use it to the full, yet

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish, not my native language
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ToolTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Thank you Diclotican.
Possibly this is what I recall, but it seems more recent than 1980s. Your English is plenty good to communicate your meaning. You need not apologize for it. Thank you also for making the difficult effort outside your own language and adding to our knowledge.

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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. ToolTex
ToolTex

Ok, I may get it wrong, but I remember it was "all hell out" when the news broke out, that a Norwigan company was involved... And in the 1980s we dont have the Internet as we have today... I was just in grade school when it happend, but I rembember it was werry mutch about it in the news... It must have been a great news, when I rembember it to this day...

It is maybee more recent too.. The russians, and the chinese have allways been pretty clever to spy in america.. And they verry often manage to do away with mutch before they are discovered

I try my best to write my best engelish. I know it is not verry good, but I tray, And I belive I are better now then when I started to write her;-) My engelish is coming "back" to me as I write I guess

;)

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish, not my native language
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Swagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
61. yep..sounds like a deliberately planned big BOO ! to the US
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
62.  CGowen
CGowen

It is maybee not the first time "forreigner" has "pops up" in the middle of a US exercise with the military chiefs in the red... Even Norway have given USNavy some "blue noses" sometimes... I dont know how true this story is, but it is from some I trust, and who have "been there" in real life, so I guess it is true... Lazyness is the father of all fuck ups...

A Norwigian Sub, (diesel-eletric by the way) was in a "war game" with american navy forces, and it was with no less than a Hangar ship.. And even that is was not in the open sea, it was not exactly close to the shore either.. The submarine managed to keep it silent, and slip tru not just one line of defence, but all three line of defence and poped up, some seamiles from the flagship of the US navy forces... The officer in questing, was the same evening his way to Pentagon US to explain how a old sub, can beat the defences in a hyper-modern marine-force...

And if a Chinese Cub, can sail tru a US naval force, without that the forces know it... And be shocked when the sub sudendly are there, and say "hello".. Either are this comanding officer in the sub, a excelent officer, or he was extremely lucky.. My bet is that the Naval forces in US wil learn something about this down the road..

Maybee even the big powerfull naval forces of US have some new respect for the old Diesel eletric attack submarine forces in the world, a good trained Diesel Sub in shallow water, can be a deadly forces when used property.. Guess what a rather large force of new diesel submarines can do... The germans have a Great new submarine, who are like the Ohio class Submarine when it came to sound.. The US navy claim that the Ohio class is like a black hole in the ocean.. The german claims that the sub IS a black hole in the ocean... But then the submarine the german are building are not build to go to war in open ocean, but to fight in the rather close water in many european contrys.. And when you know that Germany have many years with the know-how to build great diesel/electric submarines... They may have some merit to the claim?

Link http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-boat
http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/russia/submar.htm

And as you point out.. Guess what they can do, if they are in war with US forces... They can "know out" even a Aircraft carrier.... If they are good enough, and have some luck...

Even the russian "kilo" submarine can be a dangrous little submarine, if used properly, and with good officers and crew...

And I wil bet they have bought some russian submarines too... like the Akula Attack Submarine.. And the newer one, is like the Los Angeles Class submarine when it come to sound and the rest

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish, not my native language
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CGowen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #62
84. Dolphin class, Germany is building them for Israel and for Germany's navy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin_class_submarine






I also recently watched something on this cold war incident in Sweden in 1981, but it was not a diesel submarine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_137
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. CGowen
CGowen

Ok, that wat they are calling this Sub who are been build for germany, and Israel...

It was a Diesel-Electric Wiskey-Class submarine, who was hitting the ground outside of Karlskrona in Sweden. Karlskrona is the biggest Swedish marine base, and under the cold war, it was pretty strict for forreigner to come to Karlskrona..

And then the Sovjets was lurking in the water, I guess the captain was really in problems when he was discovering he was kind of "rock-bottom" and his sup cant leave.. It tock some time, and a lot of public outcry before the sovjet sub was towed out, and let to itself.. The sub was returned to the navy base in Leningrad, and then it was "bisnisstime" for the captain.. The poor man was sitting in prison to 2004, and as I know it, are a free man now... But it was defintely a carrier-destroyer....

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish not my native language
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CranialRectaLoopbak Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
69. Chines sup pop-up
Hey, we all know that the government sucks at everything. Privatize everything. Privatize the Presidency!

Remember:

Take Pelosi off the table in 2008.
Pelosi made history in 2006. Let's make her history in 2008.
Pelosi was right.Democrats won't vote Republican in 2008, but we can vote for ANOTHER DEMOCRAT in the Democratic Primary!
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
70. Some strange things happening in the military these days!
strange like its commander in chief?
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cstanleytech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
71. I wonder though if they really were able to sneak in or
Edited on Sat Nov-10-07 10:41 PM by cstanleytech
were they already in the area.
After all the US usually notifies countries like china when and where they are going to hold such training exercises so they could very well have used that information to sneak in before the fleet moved in and just waited on the bottom.
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UncleSepp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
73. Delivery mix up?
"No, I said I wanted to order some Chinese, and a sub!"
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
74. We should have tapped their phones.
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