Chavez to Freeze Relations With Colombia

Source: AP

President Hugo Chavez said Sunday he is putting relations with Colombia "in the freezer" after its president ended the Venezuelan leader's role mediating with leftist rebels in the neighboring country.

Chavez said economic relations will be hurt, blaming actions by Colombia's U.S.-allied President Alvaro Uribe that he said were "a spit in the face."

"I declare before the world that I'm putting relations with Colombia in the freezer because I've completely lost confidence with everyone in the Colombian government," Chavez said during a televised speech.

Addressing Cabinet ministers and military officials, Chavez said: "Everyone should be alert in relation to Colombia — economic relations — the businesses Colombians have here and the businesses we have there. Commercial relations, all of that is going to be harmed. It's lamentable."

Read more: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i3-gy-m2ViT4af14BjcC-rOHaWrgD8T504300

---

I wonder what this will do to the natural gas pipeline that was negotiated earlier this year, to be built between columbia and Venezuela.

Uribe is a fucking chimp-licker.

Chimpy's black-ops mutherfuckers use Columbia as a staging ground to try to bring Chavez down.

along the border with Venezuela, ostensibly for 'fighting narcotrafficers trying to cross the border'.

Columbia has tapped into natural resources of their own.
They fear rebel attacks or foreign covert intervention;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-7083337,00.html

Uribe was working with Chavez, using him as a mediator. Something happened with that, and now Chavez is no longer the mediator. Now chavez is retaliating.

The issue is not related to Uribe's background.

A proverbial devil may well be in that detail.

maybe the U.S. pressured Uribe...maybe the Uribe government thought it wouldn't be a good idea to embolden the rebels or give them legitimacy via a meeting with Chavez. Could be a whole host of things.

The point is that the Colombian government CAN decide how they want to proceed with the internal conflict, and that Chavez shouldn't take the removal as an affront. Did Jesse Jackson take it as an affront when he's been refused as a negotiator in the past?

My problem with Chavez, as of late, is not on substance (I agree with most of his policies, for now), it's really personality. You don't call for a new society of respect and democracy and then revel in being a braggart, pushy leader, whose ocassional tirades sound very much like the tantrums of kids. I'm not trying to push forward right-wing views here...this is how his recent outbursts have seemed to me. The "traitors" comment. This incident with Colombia. The outburst at the forum with the Spanish King. All nations have grievances and issues they'd like to talk about...but can't they be vocalized without the characteristic Chavez pushiness? I love Chavez when he sticks it to the powers that be, and when's he's on the money. But, sometimes, the pushiness is wrong...and it comes across as a very problematic. Hence, why many unthinking people reflexively call him a dictator...he gives off the air of one, even if the facts on the ground do not support that conclusion.

What I'd suggest is that Chavez take a little time off to think about how he's approaching different issues.

130 Colombian paramilitaries who were found lodged at a ranch outside Caracas, owned by Cuban Venezuelan opposition activist who publicly espouses violent militance against Chavez, Roberto Alonso. He lives next door to opposition coup plotter, and _Bush father's "fishing buddy," media mogul Gustavo Cisneros, who was completely involved in the coup in April, 2004.

These paramilitaries were captured in 2004, also. When interviewed they indicated they had been hired by Alonso, with the plan of knocking over a local National Guard armory, with the goal of seizing weapons and arming 1,500 men for a violent assault.

It has been discussed exhaustively at D.U., so it's surely not news to the serious ones among us.

Alvaro Uribe offered his formal apology to Hugo Chavez, and disclosed what he had learned about the plan involving people in Colombia.

Last year, investigators in Colombia uncovered the fact that Uribe's head of secret police, their D.A.S., Noguero, had been involved in an assassination plot against Hugo Chavez. Noguero fled the country and was located hiding elsewhere, arrested, and returned to Colombia.

That fact was discussed at length by the serious DU members who've been keeping up on Latin American events.

Just last week a story surfaced which has STILL not been reported in English speaking sources. All stories have been taken from Spanish language newspapers and tv station links, and run through the automated Google translation, which means they are very rough, and miss a lot of the material due to insufficient translation skills of the mechanical process. Here's one posted last week:

Pertrecho military coup seized belongs to network
Wednesday, November 21, 2007

The pertrecho military seized Tuesday in the fifth Los MB, urbanization Miranda state of Miranda, allegedly belong to a net destabilizing, "which aims to travel the road of violence," said the minister of People's Power for Home Affairs and Justice Pedro Carreño. After a raid conducted in this urbanization by officials of the Scientific, Criminal and (Cicpc) and the Directorate of Intelligence and Prevention Services (Disip), the minister stressed that were seized 78 mobile phones, military uniforms facts United States military arsenal, assault rifles, more than six thousand cartridges, among other items, "Attack".
According to the official, the material found in this fifth "is typical of armed groups operating in localities, there is a lot of overlap."

Pedro Carreño noted already arrested four citizens, one Colombian nationality: Jorge Ivan Alvarez, Miguel Antonio Davila, Luver Jacinto Atencio Guayabal and Arturo Gonzalez (Colombian Venezuelan identity card).

"These people are the order of the Public Ministry, and also sent their names to the Administrative Department of Security (DAS) of Colombia to verify if they are also of Colombian origin."

With this raid, said Carreno, it is clear that there are more people involved in this action.

"Those who disagree with the reform must wait on 2 December to present their opinions. No. through guarimbas and through violence," said Minister of Interior and Justice.

Incautan equipment to be used to create chaos before the 2D

The Minister of the Interior and Justice, Pedro Carreno, led the raid on a house, which was located weaponry and military clothing

A raid on a fifth of eastern Caracas directed the minister of the Interior and Justice, Pedro Carreno, which tracked weapons and military uniforms, according to the senior official, were to be used for acts of sabotage prior to the referendum on December 2 .

The operation took place at the fifth "MB" located at the urbanization Miranda. Carreno said were confiscated fúsiles of assault, weapons combarte, more than six thousand rounds of ammunition, military clothing, 78 cellular codes and names, and other substances that are being subjected to expertise.

He noted that it does not rule out any hypothesis, but it takes more force is the cause of an atmosphere of chaos and confusion, "to undermine the stability of the republic and the democratic nature of the people who have decided to participate on 2 December." According to the owner of the Interior and Justice, there are areas that are home hope to act on the road to prevent the violence leg conduct of the referendum.

He explained that managed to reach the site after the arrest of four individuals (Jose Angulo Guayabal, Ivan Alvarez Pina, Miguel Antonio Davila Pereiray, Luber Jacinto Gonzalez Atencio) The Christ in the plaza, located in Petare, during a police operation. He added that the suspect was doubting attitude to the authorities for interrogation and then gave two addresses residence, one in the fifth urbanization Miranda.
(snip/)

http://www.eldiariodeyaracuy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14364&Itemid=3

If you imagine this is a single, isolated story picked up by one source, think again. I took the time last week to look up stories from tv stations and newspapers in Venezuela, and ran them all through google translation and they all supported the same facts:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x1098

Hugo should find positive ways to make this known...without resorting to his personality style. Purely from a "PR" point of view, he's coming off in the American media as braggart, pushy, and out of control. Granted, the media and the West have a huge axe to grind with him because of the social transformations he's doing in Venezuela. No doubts there about the motivation behind grilling him. But, I've seen Evo Morales and Correa in Ecuador do similar things as Chavez without getting the type of press that chavez is getting. In fact, I remember Correa being very classy (but very sarcastic) when asked about the U.S. military base in Ecuador. He told him he wanted one in Miami.

I'm not against Chavez standing up for what he believes in. I'm for Chavez being more strategic in how he decides to press some issues. Sometimes, he's right on the money. As of late, his language has been much more autocratic, in your face, and has made even some of his left supporters very uncomfortable.

All I can hope is:

1) That he will find a good balance between "sticking it to the U.S." and "diplomatic discourse", and know when it is appropriate to use each personality style

2) That if he passes these reforms, that he improves Venezuelan society and does not aggrandize himself or leave it open for future leaders, leftist or rightist, to aggrandize themselves.

Many DUers fear his constitutional reforms because they're used to check and balances here. What they see in Venezuelan society, while perfectly normal and consistent with that country's constitutional history, is foreign to them. They feel his reforms (and others before his) lend themselves to dictatorship. Add Chavez' increasing autocratic tone, and you get comments like, "he's another Castro".

I haven't made up my mind on the issue and I'm giving Chavez a lot of benefit of the doubt...but I must admit that the rhetoric and actions of Chavez are becoming increasingly worrisome...and this is coming from a supporter of his for the last 8 years.

in East Caracas, and their obvious plan to inflict some chaos prior to the reform referendum:

Tuesday, November 20, 2007
Carreño announces arrest of four suspects during raids
AUDIO
Listen to Pedro Carreno

UNION RADIO -
The Minister of the Interior and Justice, Pedro Carreno, reported this afternoon the arrest of four people in the fifth MB of Miranda urbanization in Caracas, suspected of possessing an arsenal of weapons, cellular phones and substances.

The owner of MIJ elaborated that the seizure was found, "a large arsenal of military equipment where they can hide weapons, we are talking about assault rifles, combat arms, pistols, machine guns, more than 6 thousand cartridges. Order of 78 mobile phones, each and every one of the phones have codes and names. addition of other substances that are being subjected to expertise. "

It dismisses as a hypothesis that has a connection with any opposition group to reform, "we are aware that at this moment the country settles constitutional reform. As always in our country there are areas that harbor the hope to act on the road to violence. "


He said that to rule responsibilities will be investigated "each and every one of the cellular phones that have found their records and traces of calls and messages sent and received, as well as laptops computers, after which we entered the DISIP for progress in the investigations" .

He assured that all organs of state security, intelligence agencies, our forensics, the MIJ and the judiciary, are not going to allow it to generate destabilization. "

The minister in an attempt to be testified by the media said "you have been téstigos's military arsenal that there there, and all this for attacking the inner peace of the Republic, to undermine the stability of nations, to attack the democratic nature of the Venezuelan people so that free, sovereign, independent decididó vote next December 2. "

He cautioned, "if any sector of the Venezuelan State disagrees with the reform, you have to wait for the December 2 and express their will by NO, and that the CNE determined after the balloting who won."

"There can be generated guarimbas, destabilization, but now we will not allow encroachment on the lives of citizens, against the peace of the Republic, against the peace of the institutions, even on the life of President Chavez and senior officials of both the Revolution and the opposition, "retorted.

He said "because the conspiracy attentive sides and side, so to create an atmosphere of chaos and an atmosphere of confusion, all this stuff is being reported today in a public and we are still at the stage of overhaul and interrogation these citizens, will be consigned to the MP and the CICPC with their teams field research and evaluation expertise to yield the most accurate results possible. "

It revealed that the DISIP with their teams of intelligence and counterintelligence investigations "will be able to turn off the network."

"For the number of cellular phones and the amount of weaponry we presume, through the technical research, comparative analysis can be assumed by the deductive method that a lot more people; of 4 among those detained, committed to this, "he said.
(snip/)

http://www.unionradio.com.ve/Noticias/Noticia.aspx?noticiaid=223012

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Some of the accounts I've posted at the Latin America forum indicated that the drugs found at the first location were designed to keep the user awake.

Some of us have read that the government started giving drugs like this to American soldiers in Iraq years ago.

with Venezuelan opposition leader who actively works to oust Chavez every day, and receives BIG U.S. taxpayers' BUCKS from the _Bush administration through various sources, like USAID, and N.E.D.

_Bush welcomes his right-wing little emperor, Alvaro Uribe, who, by the way, is clearing the way for his own unprecidented THIRD TERM, after getting his own National Assembly to approve his second UNPRECIDENTED term, and _Bush loves his little right-wing oligarchy, coup-plotting and assisting Sumate leader, Maria Corina Machado.



Alvaro Uribe and his friend spend a day in the country.



Opposition Maria Corina Machado makes herself at home on U.S. taxpayers'
dime, representing Venezuela, as a Venezuelan politician _{George W. Bush} WILL
invite to the White House.

Less than two weeks later, Uribe announced out of the blue that Chávez only had six more weeks to reach a prisoner exchange agreement—imposing a deadline of December 31. Chávez pointed out the irrationality of such impatience by noting that the mediation efforts of Córdoba and himself had shown more promise of success in three months than Colombia’s peace commissioner had achieved in the last five years.

But that promise of success was precisely the reason that Uribe imposed the unrealistic deadline on the talks—to ensure their failure. Several days later, the Colombian president used the fact that Córdoba had called Colombian army chief General Mario Montoya and handed the phone to Chávez—against the expressed wishes of the Colombian president—as grounds for terminating the process. While Córdoba and Chávez’s decision to contact Montoya might have been irresponsible, it hardly justified ending an important and promising negotiating process.

http://www.colombiajournal.org/colombia267.htm

he loses his place at the old trough, feeding on a "gi-normous" amount of U.S. taxdollars annually, as the 3rd largest recipient of foreign aid, almost all of it being directed straight into his military, and screw the Colombian poor, anyway!



_Bush and his Colombian shadow

From your article:

Chávez’s outspokenness and lack of discretion was already legendary, so Uribe knew full well that the process was going to become a media spectacle once he enlisted the Venezuelan president’s help. Therefore, while appeasing critics by initiating a high-profile negotiation process, Uribe knew that Chávez’s personality would undoubtedly provide him with a justification to terminate the process at a later date should talks begin showing signs of progress. In all likelihood, Uribe probably doubted that even the leftist Chávez would make any headway in talks with Colombia’s largest guerrilla group.

The Colombian right quickly began criticizing Uribe for providing Chávez with a platform to increase his visibility and legitimacy among Colombians. Uribe responded to pressure by his own supporters by attempting to sabotage the negotiations. He made unilateral declarations that illustrated his unwillingness to allow any serious talks to even get off the ground. For example, when Córdoba visited the two FARC guerrillas—Simón Trinidad and Soñia—imprisoned in the United States, to determine their role in any potential prisoner swap, Uribe immediately declared that his government would not allow them to be included in any exchange rather than allowing negotiators to later address their particular cases.

Uribe also made it clear that he was going to do everything possible to ensure that Chávez and FARC negotiators couldn’t meet face to face. The Colombian president refused to guarantee safe passage to FARC leaders so they could meet with Chávez in Venezuela—something he has provided to ELN negotiators who have traveled to both Cuba and Venezuela. When it was initially rumored that the FARC’s second-in-command, Raúl Reyes, would travel to Caracas to meet with Chávez, Uribe make it clear that the guerrilla leader would have to find his own way to Venezuela and that he would be arrested by Colombia’s security forces if they were to encounter him. When Chávez then said that he would be willing to travel to the jungles of Colombia to meet with the FARC’s supreme commander Manuel Marulanda, Uribe immediately ruled out any such meeting on Colombian soil.

The Venezuelan president then suggested that Marulanda come to Caracas to discuss a prisoner exchange, and perhaps even lay the foundation for future peace talks. Uribe again blocked a meeting between the two people best positioned to reach an agreement by announcing, “Manuel Marulanda sends messages that he can’t attend meetings because if he comes out of hiding he’ll be killed. Well, he guesses correctly.” The Colombian president then declared that the only people Marulanda “has to meet with are the judges and police, to respond for 40 years of killing and other crimes.”
(snip/...)

This is surely worth saving for future reference. It looks very, very strange when you actually see it on paper, doesn't it?

enjoy the full benefit fo your wisdom, boricua. Strange how history can turn on such minuscule-seeming twists of fate. If only...!

As it is, Ugo must now plough on, muddling through as best he can, without the timely benefit of your advice. Or do you think it might still not be too late, and you could perhaps fly over to Venezuela post haste and change the long and sad history of cruel and bullying left-wing demagogues in South America? More power to your elbow, I say!

Three cheers for boricua79 for so generously affording Ugo Chavez the benefit of her advice. Long live courtly manners and etiquette. And sane priorities, of course.

Yes, surely, approving of such a man is a knotty one, boricua. I'm not at all surprised you've not quite made up your mind yet. Maybe best to sit this one it, you know... what with the endless nuances and subtleties. The ultimate political and spiritual conundrum, to save a nation's people or to mind one's Ps and Qs.

He's screwing his own country.

the poor in his country..

It would take more patience and endurance than they've got to start doing their homework on the subject, so they sit back and let Fox News tell them what's going on.

Pathetic.

Many DU'ers feel it's impossible to understand a situation without actually knowing something about it!

The people of Venzuela, as in the vast majority, are the ones who have been locked out of their own lives for generations by the very tiny group of Venezuelan elitists in the oligarchy, who've been sucking up the land, and the oil profits, while the massive poor sector as suffered endlessly without help, and with vicious exploitation of their lives and energy by the small group of racist European-descended thugs who always have run Venezuela as their own fiefdom, a common story ALL OVER LATIN AMERICA.

Any of these guys could have learned this for themselves if they'd had the motivation.

It's a shame anyone feels a need to try to clear up their misinformation and disinformation. That's only something they can do on their own. They have to WANT to change!

You're completely right. The man has been chosen because he IS bringing about desperately needed change for the formerly very shabbily, and brutally led country.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

from a way back.

Do you like death squads or something?

doesn't want Chavez as a mediator anymore that is a reason to freeze relations?

All countries should suspend relations with that murderous, right-wing, gangster state. Progressives and trade unionists are murdered there all the time by the regime's death squads. To hell with Uribe.

Chavez had no problem dealing with Columbia, even arranged a treaty with them for a gas pipeline.

So obviously chavez didn't think he was such a bad guy until he was told he wasn't needed as a mediator.

It's something which would benefit both countries, and would be seriously discussed for the benefit of the two countries involved. Business.

You may not have taken the time to acquaint yourself with the more complex issues at stake. Several plots have been hatched in Colombia, involving either Uribe's head of his secret service, Jorge Noguera, or members of the Colombian paramilitaries, in many cases former soldiers in the Colombian Army, and in two cases, they've been caught inside Venezuela, near Caracas, quartered in barracks on a ranch owned by Cuban-Venezuelan right-wing opposition miltant activist Roberto Alonso, as per the testimonies of the captured men.

They said they were imported by the opposition members to break into a National Guard armory, steal weapons, arm 1,500 men, and launch an assault planned by Venezuelan opposition members.

DU'ers here discussed these incidents, and also the fact that recently Hugo Chavez pardoned the paramilitaries and returned them to Colombia, indicating he believed they were simply employed by others, and not the authors of the plot themselves, and should return home.

Just LAST WEEK more people were discovered with a cache of weapons and supplies, with cars, uniforms, cell phones, laptops, drugs for keeping them awake, and a second location. Government agents will be tracking down the information on the computers, and the text messages, and investigating this more deeply.

There is so much more involved than some stupid, childish "but I thought they were good buddies" crap. You owe it to yourself to start paying far more attention and diving in there to research for yourself.

but this doesn't help anyone. If the root of this tantrum was the fact that Colombians didn't want to use him as a mediator between rebels, there's not much reason for it. Colombia's government has the right to decide how they want to proceed with their internal conflict. I'm not a fan of the Uribe government, but neither am I fan of the Colombian rebels. Both are corrupt to the core.

In short, I hope Chavez does some reflecting. In the last year or so, he's made quite a few statements that have seemed to me to be lacking in presidential stature (to be charitable). I had promised myself that I wouldn't romanticize any of the new Latin American left leaders...that I'd give them the benefit of the doubt in trying to reshape a new Latin American political model that successfully gave the people of Latin America the voice they've so long been denied. But...Chavez is not retaining that trust I had in him in the early years of his Presidency.

Is it treasonous to say that publicly? I love my Latin American people...my brothes...and I love the new left in Latin America. But, I don't give it blank checks.

In the spirit of that cautiousness, I say onto Chavez: watch it. You're are crossing boundaries that you shouldn't cross.

It seems to me that much of what he is about, these days, is himself. His ego seems to have swept him up.

this is not the Chavez I remember from the early years of his government in Venezuela. This is not the Chavez that is portrayed in "The Revolution Will Not be Televised".

This new Chavez is sounding very eerily to the Castro of 1965-1975...a man who feared coups, dissent, and was so sure of his "righteousness", that he ran roughshod over opposition, calling them traitors.

I don't want to believe this myself. I support the new Latin america and its leftist resurgence. And I supported and have debated with friends in favor of Chavez. But, as of late, his comments have been almost indefensible. At best, he's being so lose with them, that they're undiplomatic, not very "media-savy" and counterproductive to his aim. In that sense, Morales and Correa (bolivia /ecuador) are being more intelligent in how they present themselves in the media. Chavez is falling for the boogeyman trap that is set for him by the Western media.

to say that all of his reforms are about nothing other than ego wildly misses the mark.

But his statements DO evince an egotistical turn, in extremis. His casual use of the word "traitor" is straight out of the repuke handbook, and look where that got us and them.

Maybe you might share that with DU'ers.

The likelihood of the Columbian government reciprocating to any FARC release of captives was dubious from way back. Seems like this snub of Chavez for trying to break the deadlock on the process was a fine excuse on Uribe's behalf. Stinks to high heaven, and no wonder Chavez lost his rag (=got pissed).

Did you see that Judi Lynn found several Spanish language articles reporting that Colobiam paramilitaries and their equipment have been found in FOUR locations in Caracas? And that they are investigating a fifth one? Oh, and the uniforms found are American made.

I think Chavez is signaling to both Colombia and to Spain that 2007 will not be a repeat of 2002.

In what way?

they used to like Chavez but now they don't. Who CARES if they used to like Chavez? What does that mean, anyway? It's a free country.

They all announce it so pompously, like it's supposed to earn them a pat on the back or something. Damned if I can figure it out!

If they don't like him, they should take responsibility for their feelings and be done with it. We don't need to know whom they once adored, now, do we?

Sheesh!

chaos in a discussion you want to derail. This appears to be a modified version of it. Lot's of people here at DU use this tactic to confuse.

Derailing potentionally important group communication is the only way to keep good information from getting out.

This is their last frontier, before they just get violent! They've already destroyed the ordinary media, and our political system just doesn't work "so hot," and now they're trying to stick their long, bumpy snouts into the last places left where people might exchange ideas.

It's really odd watching them work.

nt

Chavez is no exception

how is that absolute power corrupting absolutely?
Or are you just trying to find a place to show off your ability to quote cliches?

that nation has been compromised with rampant civil wars, guerrillas, and narco trafficking for decades and decades now. being also a major recipient of USA money (and interest...) and their "questionable" behaviors towards venezuela of late i wouldn't trust them an iota. i would've frozen relations ages ago; maintaining contact is just too dangerous with a proxy nation front for latin american sphere black ops.

Uribe can get his money SOMEWHERE ELSE!

From the same article



This part seems to me like making a mountain out of a molehill. Could all this bluster about Spain be an effort to shore up support for the referendum on December 2nd?

No mining natural resources



GEORGETOWN, Guyana (AP) - Guyana rushed troops and police to its western border Friday after Venezuelan soldiers allegedly blew up two Guyanese gold-mining dredges on a river near the frontier, the foreign ministry said.

According to the Guyanese military and reports reaching the capital, Venezuelan troops used helicopters and C-4 explosives to destroy the two river dredges Thursday. No one was injured.

snip
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-7083337,00.html

Guyana Claims Venezuela Blew Up Dredges
Nov 16, 2007

GEORGETOWN, Guyana (AP) — Guyana rushed troops and police to its western border Friday after Venezuelan soldiers allegedly blew up two Guyanese gold-mining dredges on a river near the frontier, the foreign ministry said.

According to the Guyanese military and reports reaching the capital, Venezuelan troops used helicopters and C-4 explosives to destroy the two river dredges Thursday. No one was injured.

Venezuelan Ambassador Dario Morandy was summoned to meet with Guyanese Foreign Minister Rudy Insanally on Friday, but no details of their discussion were immediately released. Venezuelan Foreign Ministry officials said there was no official comment on the matter.

Guyanese troops, police and land surveyors were to investigate whether the incident took place on the Wenamu River between the two countries or on the Cuyuni River in Guyana's territory.

The border region has seen trouble in recent years, as Venezuela's military has periodically staged operations to flush miners from its territory.

More:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j134JvU5hx0v5boaGLkPVg1kfPzAD8SUVIIG0

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Guyana, Venezuela diplomats in talks after border incident
11.16.07, 12:36 PM ET

GEORGETOWN, Guyana (Thomson Financial) - Guyana and Venezuela, which claims more than half the territory of its neighbor to the east, were in talks Friday a day after Georgetown says Venezuelan soldiers blew up two gold-mining dredges in Guyana.

The Foreign Ministry and the Guyana Defence Force (GDF) maintain that the two gold-mining dredges were near Iguana Island in the Cuyuni River where a team of Guyanese police and soldiers were Friday being deployed to conduct further investigations.

Meanwhile Venezuela's ambassador Dario Morandy and Guyana's foreign minister Rudy Insanally were locked in talks in the capital.

Insanally late Thursday summoned Morandy hours after the incident. A high-ranking GDF officer said the Venezuelans are claiming that the operation, which involved a large contingent of soldiers, boats and aircraft, was aimed at ridding the area of illegal gold miners.

Commissioner of the state regulatory agency, Guyana Geology and Mines Commission, William Woolford, said he was not immediately aware of the incident.

More:
http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2007/11/16/afx4349028.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Guyana, Venezuela at odds over gold boats


Published: Nov. 17, 2007 at 5:09 PM
Print story Email to a friend Font size:CARACAS, Venezuela, Nov. 17 (UPI) -- The destruction of two gold-mining barges in the South American nation of Guyana has intensified a border dispute with neighboring Venezuela.

Guyana officials allege 36 Venezuelan soldiers were behind the destruction of the two gold-mining dredges in a disputed border region Thursday. The Guyana officials allege the Venezuelan soldiers used plastic explosives to blow up the equipment, the BBC reported Saturday.

Venezuelan Ambassador Dario Morandy said Friday his country's military had not violated Guyana's borders, adding the area where the dredges had been operating was owned by his country.

"Venezuela was protecting its natural resources and we need to remove all illegal miners from the area," Morandy told Stabroek News.

More:
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2007/11/17/guyana_venezuela_at_odds_over_gold_boats/3867/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Venezuela denies Guyana mine dredge blasts
News - November 20, 2007

AFP reports that Venezuela has denied blowing up two gold-mining dredges in Guyana, despite a formal protest by the Guyanese government.

"According to the information that we have, nothing like that happened. It is not in the border area, it is in Venezuela," Venezuela's Ambassador to Guyana, Dario Morandy, told reporters.

Morandy was speaking after a second round of talks with Guyana's Foreign Minister, Rudy Insanally.

Morandy said Venezuela had been concerned about illegal gold miners from Venezuela, Guyana, Brazil and Colombia, and needed to protect the river basins of the Wenamu and Cuyuni Rivers. "All these people are destroying the rivers."

More:
http://www.sandandgravel.com/news/article.asp?v1=10516

I think it was all a trap. A poor one that is ineffective, but a trap nonetheless. This is a Colombian matter. Let the Colombians determine the fate of their own internal war.

for a while with Colombia who has in the past helped the US government in efforts to destabilize Venezuela. This time, he got out ahead of them because he knew they'd try it again around the 12/2 election.

This is one very smart person. All we're reading about is this flap and not the underlying situation, but it was a great move on his government's part.

any time soon, as long as Uribe has decided Colombia is going to be totally dependent on US taxpayers' handouts, as the THIRD LARGEST RECIPIENT OF AID in the world. Almost all the money is being funneled into his military, too, so nothing is really going to be done about the overwhelming poverty of his country, which is one reason so many poor young men have been recruited into the paramilitary death squads to lay waste on their fellow citizens, working as the arm which handles all the illegal chain saw massacres they do so well.

Multiple assassination plans appeared from Colombia, one for which Uribe apologized in person to Chávez, and another which involved Uribe's head of secret police, the D.A.S., Jorge Noguera, who fled the country, then was arrested and returned, then the last episode last week, discovering the first cache of equipment, uniforms, ammunition, cars, cell phones, and laptops, right on schedule, involving even more Colombians, long after the first group of 130 was found in May, 2004, only a month after the kidnapping of Chávez and coup, the striking down of the Venezuelan Constitution, the Supreme Court, the National Assembly, and a police search for his Cabinet members and staff, by the new coup President, attempting to imprison them.

The first mass arrest of imported Colombian fighters, involving the 130 Colombian paramilitaries, provided all the information needed as they named the militant Venezuelan opposition activist, Roberto Alonso, who has advocated the violent overthrow of Chávez, who, after later pardoned them ALL, returning them to Colombia, as he said the young men didn't create the plan themselves (breaking into a National Guard armory, stealing those weapons, arming 1,500 other soldiers for violent action in Venezuela), as it came from elsewhere.

That plot seems a long time ago, by now. The new one hasn't been mentioned in ANY English sources yet, although it was, as you know, broadcast in Venezuela, on opposition tv and radio stations, and in their opposition newspapers. Only in Spanish. Ignored here. Creepy.

It's been hectic here but it's time to get this out somehow. :(

due to opposition determination to block the vote altogether. So much for democracy! (Apparently they think a few trips up into the barrios by the rich right-wingers' college kids to hand out some more of those cool water bottles will make the majority of the Venezuelan population forget about their needs!)

It's possible they are keeping this story quieter now to keep a backlash down in the massive poor population. I remember reading about the HUGE demonstrations by the people after they arrested the 130 Colombian paramilitaries!



Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez addresses supporters
during a mass rally in Caracas on Sunday, May 16, 2004.
Chavez announced his government would establish 'people's
militias' to counter what he called foreign interference
after an alleged coup plot by Colombian paramilitaries
Caracas claims was financed by Washington. Credit: Venpres

Published on Monday, May 17, 2004 by the Agence France Presse
Thousands Protest Colombian Paramilitary Presence in Venezuela
Chavez to Set up 'People's Militia'

~snip~
The president's announcement came a week after authorities arrested 88 people described as Colombian paramilitaries holed up on property belonging to a key opposition figure.

Earlier, thousands of Chavez supporters draped in national colors marched through the streets of Caracas to protest the alleged coup plot.

Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel claimed the United States and Colombians were involved in the conspiracy.

"This march is in response to the conspiracy mounted by the Colombian oligarchy and the North American empire, but we will defeat them," Rangel said.

Rangel said the number of paramilitaries and people arrested linked to the plot uncovered last week had now risen to 120, out of 130 believed to be implicated.

Of those detained, 102 are in prison, and nine are due to go Monday before a judge.

Eight active-duty Venezuelan military officers allegedly linked to the plot have also been arrested.
(snip/...)

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0517-04.htm

one of which originated from Uribe's police chief?

Well jeez that sure could be a factor in cooling relations between the countries.

This needs its own topic.

Great work Judi Lynn

and his plans against Chavez:

If you think this arrangement seems like a recipe for disaster, you’re right. Disaster has struck with a vengeance during Álvaro Uribe’s administration. According to recent reports in Colombia’s media and testimony from former officials, between 2002 and 2005 the DAS was essentially at the service of paramilitaries and major narcotraffickers. It drew up hitlists of union members and leftist activists, and even plotted to destabilize Venezuela.


Jorge Noguera
All of this happened under the tenure of Jorge Noguera, Uribe’s DAS director from August 2002 until he left under a major storm cloud of scandal in October 2005. According to Rafael García, the agency’s former chief of information systems who has made a series of explosive allegations, “Jorge Noguera became the Vladimiro Montesinos of Alvaro Uribe’s government. He conspired against the governments of neighboring countries, he did away with leftist leaders, he participated in narcotrafficking operations, he maintained relations with paramilitary groups, etc. etc.”
(snip)

A hit on Chávez?

Though he offers few details, citing concerns about his security, García has told Colombia’s press that “there existed a destabilization plan against the Venezuelan government, and there are many Colombian government people involved.”


Danilo Anderson
García contends that Noguera and others were drawing up plans to kill high officials in the Venezuelan government, including leftist President Hugo Chávez. His allegations recall the 2004 arrest of 114 Colombian men at a compound near Caracas, a combination of young campesinos from Norte de Santander department and paramilitaries from the Jorge 40'sNorthern Bloc. At the time, Chávez described the Colombians’ presence as part of a plot to kill him.

Six months after that episode, Venezuela was shaken by the assassination of prosecutor Danilo Anderson, the first such attack the country had seen in over thirty years. Last November a Colombian man, identifying himself as a demobilized paramilitary member who served the DAS as an intelligence source, told Venezuelan authorities that Noguera had advance knowledge of a plan to kill high-ranking Venezuelan officials like Anderson and President Chávez. García’s testimony lends credibility to this witness’s story. Venezuelan authorities also claim that “Jorge 40” paid a visit to Maracaibo, Venezuela, to meet with anti-Chávez figures.
(snip/...)

http://www.ciponline.org/colombia/blog/archives/000242.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~This particular Colombian informant, if I've got my facts straight, would have never been brought in and questioned, if it hadn't been for a fluke: someone got access to a laptop belonging to the high-rankaing paramilitary (death squad) leader, and all the names, dates, etc. started getting published.

(The man mentioned whom they DID assassinate was Chavez' special prosecutor who was going after some of the coup leaders. They rigged his jeep and bombed him.)

Monday, December 19th, 2005
Colombian military implicated in plot against Chavez: Uribe

BOGOTA, Colombia (AFP) — Venezuelan former soldiers plotted against President Hugo Chavez’s government at a Colombian military building, Colombian President Alvaro Uribe said.

Uribe made the stunning disclosure Saturday at this Caribbean resort town where he is meeting with Chavez, and after analyzing documents furnished by the Venezuelan leader.

“The Venezuelan soldiers who are in Bogota went to a building to meet with members of the Colombian military.

President Chavez gave us these documents … we analyzed them and this morning I said to President Chavez: ‘I must tell you the truth: this is a building of Colombia’s public forces,’” he said.

Uribe said that intelligence efforts against the Venezuelan government are conducted in the building, and took full responsibility for the affair.

The two presidents met for six hours amid a climate of unusual goodwill Saturday to discuss the purported Bogota-based conspiracy against the Venezuelan president, which Chavez first disclosed to his Colombian counterpart during a meeting in Venezuela on November 24.

Seven Venezuelans involved in a 48-hour coup against Chavez in April 2002 have been linked to the new plot.

Businessman Pedro Carmona, leader of the failed military-civilian coup, enjoys political asylum in Colombia, where he is working as a university professor.

Uribe refused asylum to six Venezuelan soldiers involved in the coup but gave them permission to live in Colombia while they look for safe haven in another country.

The conservative Colombian leader said Saturday that he takes responsibility for the events.

“I took responsibility before President Chavez and I took it in public, because the government of Colombia, which suffers from terrorism, cannot permit anyone to plot conspiracies, especially against a brother country,” he said.
(snip/...)

http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/colombian-military-implicated-in-plot-against-chavez-uribe

(You may notice stories like this just don't make it to the U.S., do they? This one is from A.F.P. One has to wonder why that is! The only ones we get here are the ones which mock and harrass him.)

had different people been involved, instead?

How would _{George W. Bush} deal with an apology over an assassination plot against him? How many hundreds of thousands of deaths would THAT involve before he was satisfied?

but Chavez can't bring himself to talk to Columbia? What a Statesman.

When things don't go his way, he picks up all his toys from the sandbox and heads home.

It's a little ROUGH, of course, as it has been translated by the google automated translator, not a real person, but it's good enough to give a sensible person the general idea, all right!

Venezuelan government was surprised by the decision of Colombia 23-11-2007


The Venezuelan government was surprised by the decision to Colombia to terminate the work of his counterpart Hugo Chavez as a mediator in the humanitarian swap. The commissioner for peace in the brotherly country took the reins of the process of liberation, while the Head of State Hugo Chavez during an act with workers for YES, insisted that the head of the FARC sent the faith life.

In Venezuela the process was being carried with a steady hand and in the midst of great difficulties. Consider that in three months of mediation were obtained important advances that suggested the possibility that this tragedy will be settled. President Hugo Chavez ruled on the matter and insisted on receiving proof of life of the kidnapped.

President Alvaro Uribe, decided to halt the work of his pair Hugo Chavez, after learning of a phone call made by the Head of State of Venezuela to the Colombian army commander, General Mario Montoya. Uribe explained that he had asked President Chavez, in the Ibero-American Summit in Chile not communicate with members of his government or the military high command. Uribe called back to the FARC as terrorists and accused of flouting of the international community.

The news generated mixed reactions. Former Colombian President Ernesto Samper, requested an urgent meeting between Chavez and Uribe. France and China called for a rectification. Senators of the party of President Uribe, welcomed his determination but the families of the abductees information provoked sadness and bewilderment.

It all started last August when five of the Colombian senator, Piedad Cordoba, asked the president Hugo Chavez mediate in the conflict. The governor accepted the Venezuelan mission and offered to talk with the guerrillas.
(my emphasis)

The dignitary spoke with the secretary of the FARC, Ivan Marquez and ELN delegates in Miraflores who promised to send the faith life of the hostages including former presidential candidate Ingrid Betancourt.

President Chavez, sought to introduce this evidence to your French pair Nicolas Sarkozy, on November 20, however came to Paris without them. Faced with this Uribe, said he would not permit the FARC abuse of humanitarian exchange, it fixed a deadline of 31 December. Hours later, the house of Nariño announcing the news to curb the work of President Chavez. This process is expected to achieve an exchange of 500 rebels imprisoned for at least 45 hostages of the FARC. But now is waiting for the response of the guerrilla group in front of the government decision.
(snip/)

Here's the tv, "Televen"'s website, with the story in Spanish:

http://www.televen.com/contenido.asp?contenido=17538&codprograma=noticieromatutino

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Is this what you've picked up from the stories in the U.S.?

This one is a crude translation, using google translation, of an article published at the websiste of Union Radio, in Venezuela:

Tuesday, November 27, 2007
Political Colombians believe called Venezuelan ambassador does not break
Send this e-mail note


SPE -
Congressmen and former Colombian foreign ministers admitted today that it was a delicate situation between Colombia and Venezuela, which called for consultations its ambassador in Bogota, Pável Rondon, but felt that this fact does not constitute a breach of the bilateral relations.

Different sectors commented on the announcement by the Foreign Ministry quoted the ambassador Venezuela Rondón for "a comprehensive evaluation of bilateral relations."

Meanwhile, the Colombian government announced today that it is not called consultations its ambassador in Caracas, Fernando Marin, despite the decision of Venezuela.

Rondón was already in Caracas since last weekend, after the government canceled the mediation of Bogota that he had asked the president of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez, to broker an agreement aimed at the release of the kidnapped by the guerrillas of the Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia (FARC).

Sen. Dilian Francisca Toro, of the Foreign Relations Committee, told reporters that the reaction "was astonished" at the decision of President Chavez calling the ambassador.

Meanwhile, Sen. Carlos Garcia of the Partido de la U, one of the forces behind the president Alvaro Uribe, considered that the appeal means that Chavez "is going to study the situation with its ambassador, but there was no break in relations".

The former chancellor and former Colombian ambassador to Venezuela Rafael Rondon Pável Pardo recalled that he was in Caracas since last weekend and that Chavez had spoken on Sunday of a "freeze" of bilateral relations.

Pardo explained that the call for consultations, "does not mean a great change, but a formalization of what has happened"

The former chancellor Augusto Ramirez Ocampo said that the call for consultation "is not a breakup of relations," but a mechanism to express "disagreement on some issues with that State."

On Monday, businessmen and leaders of the Colombian economy warned the risk of diplomatic crisis for bilateral trade, which this year is estimated to exceed 5,000 million.

Such exchange is widely favorable to Colombia, as almost 4,000 million for Colombian exports, but this volume contains much food supplying Venezuela.
(snip/)

http://www.unionradio.com.ve/Noticias/Noticia.aspx?noticiaid=223738

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Don't know enough about Venezuela to know who owns these stations, but I have read that most ALL the radio, tv stations and newspapers are wholly opposition owned.

Judi Lynn once again gives us perspective to which we should view this issue. All those rabid, immature anti-Chavez posters whose whole contribution to this and most Venezuela-related threads is to claim that "Chavez is a dictator" ad nauseum unfortunately seem to skip her posts.