Iraq Vet Anti-War Group (IVAW) Says War Crimes are 'Encouraged'

Source: News 10 Now (NY)

January 20th, 2008 10:21 pm
Anti-war group says war crimes are "encouraged"
By Brian Dwyer / News 10 Now

WATERTOWN, NY - "I was messed up in the head. It was okay for me. I laughed afterwards. We all did. It's just the way things go." Iraq war veteran Jon Turner said it was almost expected of him to pull the trigger on people who didn't need to die. So he did.

"It was my decision," Turner said. "I made it. Now I have to live with the fact that I still see someone's eyes screaming at me after I shot them." But Turner says it wasn't his choice to be encouraged to do it from higher ranking officers. He and three other veterans speaking out Saturday at the Different Drummer Cafe in Watertown said committing war crimes is not only the way things go, but it's unofficial policy.

"The killing of innocent civilians is policy," veteran Mike Blake said. "It's unit policy and it's Army policy. It's not official policy, but it's what's happens on the ground everyday. It's what unit commanders individually encourage."

The group, part of the national organization called Iraq Veterans Against War are planning an event to be held in Washington, D.C. this coming March called "Winter Soldier" that will have veterans all speaking about war crimes they committed or witnessed during their tours of duty.

Read more: http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/index.php?id=10779

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VIDEO HERE: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=86501&mesg_id=86501

this shit needs to be out in the open for everyone's sake (vets and the public).

I wouldn't send my children to the government to be destroyed. What sane person would? Sorry; my comment may be somewhat off-topic but it was my first reaction to the OP.

the military has many functions. Their primary function is to destroy things. Equipment, enemy forces, and capability.

This is one persons view of the Army from their experience (hopefully). Not everyone would agree with it.

However judging the actions of a huge group of people on the opinion is unfair.

The military follows lawful orders, they dont get to vote on them.

I choose to join the NG and was not sent there. It was a (mostly) positive experience. But that is my opinion.

And you're right - judging the whole based on the behavior of a few isn't fair or logical. It's like my european friends characterizing the U.S. as a terribly dangerous place, because all they ever read about are the murders and other tragedies. On the other hand, we hear these stories because the atrocities occur and we ignore them at our peril. We should probably attend to the words of those who have not found it easy to adjust from citizen to Destroyer.

and the Army especially have let down returning soldiers with mental disorders. I find it appalling and sad. It goes against everything good about the service and is a crime against the soldiers. It hurts the nation as well.

Even those who do not have a combat mos are impacted. These stresses are not new. WW2 veterans suffered, vietnam vets suffered, we should be prepared for this and be ready to help our neighbors.

NO -- it's obviously not an aberration --- and not only is this soldier telling truth that many will not want to hear --- like TORTURE by our military/CIA/White HOuse and like MI LAI and the many other towns and villages similarly destroyed in VN* and now Iraq -- but it makes clear that not only does this go to the highest levels of government, but that sadly their own military leaders have gone along with this brutality -- this evil.

It takes great courage for these soldiers to speak out ---

AND what this soldier is saying couldn't be clearer ---

and Rush Limbaugh type attempts to lessen what he is saying shouldn't be welcomed here ---



*Re Vietnam . . . while I was quite familiar with the many atrocities we brought upon these innocent people . . . . including the Phoenix Program where upwards of 60,000 VN civiiians were tortured and often thrown from helicopters to their death --- I was even further shocked to learn from Noami Klein's book "Shock Doctrine" that we were also using shock treatments on Vietnamese prisoners.
Not even what could be described as anything "normal" in the use of these instruments --- but as instruments of torture.

Wake up, America --- !!!

for the entire us army and marine corps to commit war crimes in day to day operations.

The military does not go along..they take orders. They dont draw straws on orders, they arent negotiated. Given or received, never negotiated.

The CURRENT and PAST ELECTED congress APPROVED, and FUNDS the military operations in Iraq. Some of those operations include killing people.

One person is one person. He gets his voice, I get mine. No one is "lessening" his position on his service experience.

You can not have ELECTED officials funding a military operation (aka outcome achieved through violence) and then condemn those who have to carry out the orders.

for example, shooting an unarmed child in the head? Never negotiated? OK because congress funds the war?

It don't work that way.

it is covered. That order could be refused, still not a negotiation. However "draw up a plan to invade Iraq, tommy" can not.

No it is that simple. The military does not pick and choose the orders from the commander and chief that it is willing to follow.

Elected officials control the military. Found stone of this democracy. Civilian control.

"The killing of innocent civilians is policy". You're saying that civilians are entirely at fault; I'm saying bullshit.

There are soldiers at the other end of that gun who make the decision whether to pull the trigger, knowing it's a war crime. Don't give me that "I had orders" crap.

It is clear from boot that there is such a thing as an illegal order. That would fall under that category.

In any war civilians will die. That is hard fact. The line between murder and collateral death is relevant.

Firing a weapon at an unarmed child is obviously illegal. Firing a mortar (LAW, crew served weapon) at a house you are being fired on from could easily kill people other than the person firing at you. That is legal. And had ben practiced for decades.

Most of this stuff is not black and white. What is clear in every war is that when armies are in place conducting operations people will die.

Pretty simple solution, remove the army.

"The killing of innocent civilians is policy," veteran Mike Blake said. "It's unit policy and it's Army policy. It's not official policy, but it's what's happens on the ground everyday. It's what unit commanders individually encourage."

You can try to dance through this semantically, but the military is responsible here. In your words their actions are "obviously illegal", but they're doing it anyway. That's a problem, no?

which we recognize also endangers their lives.

Try to catch up with Nuremberg trials --

Of course you are trying to suggest that what he is saying is an aberration.
Trying to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

There are rules of war which we are not following --
destruction of infrastructure which we have done in Iraq, certainly over almost 20 years now, is not permitted.

TORTURE is not permitted according to the Geneva Accords.

Iraq is an "illegal" war as described by the Secretary General of the UN ---
It is a war of aggression against another sovereign nation.

And simply killing civilians as we know happened in Vietnam and as is being described to us here in regard to Iraq is also unlawful.

One day, let's hope, the criminals who have committed these crimes will be brought to account.

and they do their best to cover it up.

When you start with an illegal order from the top, it's hard to make things legal somewhere on the way down.

of a presidential order is yours to have. However it is irrelevant on the process that executes that order. Lots of the military brass despised the idea of the IFOR/KFOR mission. However it was executed.

The mechanism that FUNDS the war is in place. Your problem , and mine, are best directed to the civilians who give the orders. Not those who carry them out.

And someone tell me again why we should "support our troops?"

than the one they ousted. Bush has more innocent blood on his hands than Sadam. This seems to be ok with the majority in congress though as bipartisanship has been accomplished in this regard. Many need to look at who and what they are voting for.

while I feel compassion and sympathy for those in the military for economic reasons --- and those who don't understand their right to not follow UNLAWFUL laws -- themselves taking the risk of being shot as "insubordinate" . . . I will support organizations helping those who want to leave the military however they can --- but I certainly don't support our military as it has been run.

be turned into an ad against the occupation and played on cable if we could find a station that would play it, if we helped fund it through this group? his words are just 'awakening' and mouth-dropping, not that they're grotesquely descriptive. "eyes screaming after you've shot them" is just harsh, not overly grotesque. I ask, because this is a very serious (no emphasis needed) situation we're allowing as citizens, and I want it to stop.

and what our military actually did in Vietnam . . . !!!

~PEACE~


http://icasualties.org/oif/

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

pretty ignorant. You will enjoy a war reception from the many veterans, some combat veterans of this war, and the previous war, here.

Think about what you said.

edit grammar

Since they've all lived through far harder situations, it's doubtful they'll be quaking in their boots. I hope they are looking forward to airing the truth. It may be one rare moment during the entire administration (that's assuming he'll agree to leave as scheduled) of _{George W. Bush,} during which the truth was ever spoken.

Hoping nothing will interfere with their public statement. No fatal accidents, no murders, no suicides, no disappearances into thin air, no sudden heart attacks.

In another nightmare.

Wonder if John Kerry will stand with these vets?

Wat

But all I can remember right now is being called a traitor or tut-tutted as being naive when I demonstrated against this no-good, miserable, fucked-up abortion of a war (as if there's any other kind) five years ago. And four years ago. And three years ago. And two years ago. And last year. And this year.

This country doesn't seem to learn.

Everyone connected to war is desensitized by the act of war. Usually, it is the soldiers, young men and women that bring home the guilt and shame of the acts of war. Suddenly killing is good. Suddenly other humans are bad. Often times, this computes into ALGOL and drug abuse or more violent crime.

Unfortunately, we live in a time were greed leads and George "the warrior" Bush will walk away from his murders of innocent civilians and the mental and physical destruction of many young Americans.

Georges war answered his call for attention from his dad. Tough therapy for bystanders. War is always the very last resort. When will we ever learn!

For wider veiwing tonight since it only got 4 recs Sunday He spoke the truth, timeless.

But hardly a surprise

and no one show up to fight it??? WHEN? Let the Rich go fight their own wars.

But it is. They keep saying that the orders are not coming from the top, but the torture is being ordered from the top, so we would be fools to think the genocidal orders aren't as well.

War ain't noble, liberating, or acceptable behavior. Yet we let it happen.

No written orders -No accountability

so I suspect there were written orders specifying that "removing resistance"-ie. Iraqi Civs- was acceptable.

Were those documents shredded? Normally, I would say yes, 99.9% sure they were. Now, though, I'm almost certain they weren't. Bushco seems not to care about CYAing their behavior- the equivalent of "Yeah, we did it and lied about it. What are you going to do about it?"

If Congress was doing their jobs, they would be looking for said documents and nailing bushco for war crimes...but as they say, evil only needs a silent audience.

Looking at it from another country, who has a large role in Afghanistan with its own troops, that being Canada, its amazing how much "The Troops" are elevated to god-like status down there. From political photo-op backdrops, game show participants in full uniform, mass displays of support at sporting events, you people seem to literally worship your armed forces. So it's no wonder that this kind of story will go unnoticed by the MSM. And it will be blocked out by the majority who run across it.

The troops are only the hired guns of the country. They are paid to defend the land. Yes it is a dangerous job, but so is police work, driving cabs, high level construction, mining etc. They are more often than not, used by the wealthy elite to grab land and resources and intimidate other countries. There is nothing special about them. All war crimes should be investigated and the guilty should pay, but we all know that is never going to happen for the vast majority of those crimes. But it would be good to see that coddling culture of the armed forces be shaken up a bit down there.

I've been in the US armed forces on active duty for 18 years now. I've done a tour in Afghanistan, as well as many many other places outside the US. And I agree with you. We in the military have somehow become The Holy Ones since 11 Sep 2001, as if we all wear shimmering white robes with golden halos around our heads. The "support the troops or be labeled a traitor" school of thought is natural among conservatives and the fundamentalist of all stripes, but in my personal opinion the reason it's so pervasive this time around is because of The Left/liberals/whatever - they realized that blaming the troops in the Vietnam War backfired in many ways, opening them up to charges of unAmericanism, pro-Communism, etc. So the view now seems to be that if they trip over themselves to adore and adulate the troops, then they won't be labeled unAmerican and pro-terrorism. Needless to say that hasn't worked out very well, but they figure there's no point in changing course now. So now even the 'opposition' is pro-troops.

Personnally I get very uncomfortable when people thank me for "my service" or "defending our freedoms" or "fighting those terrorists." I know they're all very well-meaning, if woefully uninformed, so I tend to just say "thanks" and head for the nearest exit. But the reality is we're not defending any American's freedoms. Only the most starry-eyed al-Qaeda member has any fantasies of being able to impose their form of social norms on the US populace. They certainly aren't going to be invading anytime soon either. So I'd like to know how I'm defending anyone's freedoms exactly. The reality is I'm a cog in the miliary-industrial machine, a machine that's more likely to strip away freedoms in the interests of trumped-up national security concerns or by stoking a nebulous fear of 'terrorism.'

I don't need to be thanked for that.

I am Brazilian and this attitude puzzles me as much as it does you.

Were I to worship a line of work, it would be paramedics, firemen, or rescue workers. Or perhaps elementary teachers.

It's a survival technique. Our returning soldiers will need readjustment counseling for years. We have to encourage them to be treated sooner rather than later.
One of the unconscious messages drilled into a soldier's head during basic training or boot camp is that showing weakness equates with death for you and your fellow soldiers. Consequently, upon returning home combat soldiers are reluctant to seek help as it's a sign of weakness. The longer the interval between the trauma of combat and treatment, the more it has a chance of becoming chronic.
The government counts on returning GIs to avoid treatment. It saves them money for Paris Hilton's tax cuts. Of course, our political leaders who fund veterans health care, and the wars that necessitate it, are far removed from the walking time bombs they helped create.
That's just been my experience.

The media won't bother to make it a story. Unfortunately, the mainstream population will ignore it as unsupported despite widespread evidence and testimony.

There is no positive outcome no matter what when we choose to use force instead of dialog. The pen will always be mightier than the sword. History has shown that time and time again but when we have a president that was given a free pass through school what do we expect?

there are thousands of dead Iraqi civilians killed by our troops proves that this is true. The military thrives on unofficial policy. I was in the Navy from '81-'85. Lying to produce the "official story" was encouraged.

.... called "Winter Soldier" that will have veterans all speaking about war crimes they committed or witnessed during their tours of duty.


Don't need to see any more documented bootcamp flunky's that never went overseas brag about the atrocities they committed in Iraq or wherever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Soldier_Investigation

Unfortunately, if you Google "Winter Soldier" the very first result is wintersoldier.com which is a smear site connected with the Swiftboat Veterans organization. The wikipedia entry is a much better information source.

so one of the worst atrocities in the Iraq War was planned as a distraction to cover up the election fraud that occurred here in the US in Ohio and Florida.

That indicates it was planned by the bigwigs at the Pentagon and by the White House---and by that I mean Cheney and Rove.

Donations are needed. The more donations, the more they can get the word out.

Help families and friends understand what the Iraqi and Afganistan Veterans are going through by renting or purchasing and sharing, the DVD "Ground Truth". Show at house parties and churches.


*** From March 13-16, 2008, Iraq Veterans Against the War will gather in our nation's capital to break the silence and hold our leaders accountable for these wars. We hope you'll join us, because ours is a story that every American needs to hear. ****

http://www.ivaw.org/wintersoldier (they have a link to donate)

This spring, Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW) is revealing the reality of the U.S. occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. In what will be history's largest gathering of U.S. veterans who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as Iraqi and Afghan survivors, eyewitnesses will share their experiences in a public investigation called Winter Soldier: Iraq and Afghanistan.

How you can help
Winter Soldier main page
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Your donation will help make Winter Soldier a success! We need your help to spread the word about Winter Soldier. Please use our Forward to a Friend page to let your friends know about this event, and add a banner to your website or blog.

If you want to get more involved in this project's media aspects, which includes organizing national advertisements as well as issuing press releases and representing the project please join the Winter Soldier media team by contacting Liam Madden at wintersoldier@ivaw.org or Liam@ivaw.org