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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 12:58 PM
Original message
New developments in the FLDS case
Source: Dallas News

No hearing today: A hearing by the 3rd Court of Appeals that had been scheduled for today has been canceled. Appellate judges gave the state until Friday to respond to a claim by 48 mothers that there wasn't enough evidence for state District Judge Barbara Walther to rule April 18 that the children should remain in state care.

Cases to be assigned: Each of the 463 children will be assigned to a Child Protective Services caseworker. Each caseworker will work with no more than 15 of the sect's children. They won't have any other children assigned to them, for the time being.

Sick children: CPS confirmed that nine of the sect's children have been hospitalized while in the state's care and six are currently in a hospital. The ailments have included dehydration, ear infections and respiratory problems.

Read more: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/DN-polygamistbox_29tex.ART.State.Edition1.46587af.html



Another story with a bit more info about moms staying with nursing infants, hospitalization (read yesterday that there was a group with chickenpox also), visitation for kids in hospital, splitting up sibs:
http://origin.sltrib.com/faith/ci_9091635
Azar said the state has custody of 463 children, a group that includes minor mothers and their children. In addition, 17 adult mothers have been allowed to stay with infants 12 months or younger who were nursing.

The state moved the FLDS children to group homes and shelters throughout Texas last week. Azar said that six children remain in area hospitals, where they are being treated for illnesses such as ear infections. Three other children were treated and released.

TRLA praised CPS on Monday for setting up a supervised visiting schedule for parents whose children are being treated at Shannon West Texas Memorial Hospital.
Azar said all children are accounted for and caseworkers each have been assigned 15 children to represent. Arrangements also are being made that will allow mothers to visit their children while in foster care, he said.

Azar said all children are accounted for and caseworkers each have been assigned 15 children to represent. Arrangements also are being made that will allow mothers to visit their children while in foster care, he said.
(clip)

She also said that, contrary to a courtroom pledge by CPS, sibling groups have been split up. Eight children from one monogamous family have been sent to five different shelters, she said. Another little girl is in a shelter an hour away from the group home where her sisters are, O'Toole said. Azar acknowledged the state had broken up sibling groups but said officials were working to reunite at least some of them. He said making placements was difficult given that the "children don't even want to answer you what their name is and where they feel everyone is their brother and sister." (more@link)
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. "Sibling groups?"
These children were warehoused in dormitories after they were weaned. The FLDS system in no way resembles families as we know them.

This also exposes their lawyer/spokesmodel as a liar since attempts have been made to keep nursing mothers with their babies.

I'm not surprised the kids are getting sick. Stress weakens the immune response. However, leaving them where they were is unconscionable by civilized people.

These children don't know who their mothers are. The idea that they know who their siblings are is a little farfetched. If siblings were separated, it was because the state had no way of knowing which were siblings pending DNA results.

The whole situation is a terribly sad one for everybody. When relationships are known, perhaps the abusers can be put into prison and children can be returned to mothers. That would be more than their mothers could ever expect at the hands of the FLDS.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Let's hope this sorts itself out
The DNA testing should help. And I'm hoping that the time the children are in foster care gives them at least a glimpse of the wider world out there--maybe some will be able to come out of their brainwashed state and realize there is something beyond the teachings of this so-called "religion".
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. They've already been taught what coloring books and crayons are for
which is something even their poor mothers didn't know.

Work, prayer, and being bred year after year is all they knew. This was a booty farm for old men.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. As an artist,
I find that terribly sad! I'm glad they are learning about simple, beautiful things like crayons now, though.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. It will be good when DNA testing is done, abusers in prison.
I posted some thoughts in reply below about "family". It is interesting that some Fundie groups consider "family" only genetic mom/dad/offspring under 1 roof, while this Fundie group considers "family" as something totally different.
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Just because it's not a nuclear family doesn't make it invalid.
It's still a family structure. This is a slippery slope. While I condemn the underage marriages because they lack consent, there are other Mormon polygamists who are much more enlightened in their practices. I do not believe these groups should be persecuted unless their are genuine age/consent issues.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I agree with you, issue here needs to focus on Statutory rape and child abuse issues.
There are all sorts of ways to define "family". I would like to see people in groups like this be able to learn what their rights are in the larger world of their compound/religion, as they do have other rights. Religious rights do not outweigh human rights, do not give anyone the right to abuse anyone else.
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Absolutely.
There are no absolute religious rights. That would be to the detriment of others. That said, I have no legal problem with polygamist communities that adhere to laws concerning minors. I do not think they are a positive social force and I'd prefer they be restricted in their proselytizing but if they mind their own affairs, so be it.
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ckramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. I agree
I don't mind secular polygamy. For example, Bill Gates have 10 wives.

He can have 100 wives if there are 100 women want to marry him. The law should allow that.

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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. You're missing the point
l. The maternal child bond was not there for the child.

2. The living circumstances were such that there was no family bond, only a bond with the FLDS as a group.

3. There were therefore no families as we understand them, just children being raised factory farm style.

4. Once the rest of the pervs join Jeffs in prison, DNA testing will sort the kids out and they'll probably go to their mothers. That is a far cry from anything the FLDS offered them.

This is not about polygamy as a lifestyle freely chosen by adults. This is about a booty farm for old men. I have absolutely no problem with the former and have actually known one such family, non LDS. I have a very large problem with the latter. Women and children are not property, I don't care how much a man puffs himself up to call himself a prophet.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I think that's what he's saying also. Check post 15.
Edited on Tue Apr-29-08 02:21 PM by uppityperson
Different ways of looking at it but I think, so far, we're all in agreement here.

I wonder if I'm on ignore by other posters with whom I've "discussed" recently? Good if I am. Makes it more civil.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. heh, I added to my list this morning
I think the last time I added to it was back in November. I really do have a high boiling point.

You're nowhere near reaching it.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. I've read various posts that referenced communal living,
but I haven't read an actual article about it, especially one that mentioned separating the child and mother after weaning. Do you happen to have a link, Warpy?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. No I don't have a link, just a mention in several of the stories
about the dormitory style housing of children and their orders to call every woman "mom" and every man "uncle," with mothers and daughters occasionally being married to the same man.

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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. Some of the children, mothers, and fathers disagree with you.
But I guess you know better than they do.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. I won't believe anything the robotic mothers say.
The lack of affect is unbelievable -- and even scarier is the thought that the women put forward thus far are probably the ones the attorney thought would best represent the group.
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FormerOstrich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #26
35. High Plains...
I have been reading everything I can about this case in something similar to the horrific fascination rubberneckers. And there you are on every damn thread. Your comments just infuriate me. What is your agenda on these threads?

While I fully believe you are very much aware of the atrocities reported from the "Jeff" compound(s). I'll restate: There are plenty of people that have lived/witnessed these acts and others that have independently collaborated.

The states continue to try different approaches to tackle the problems. They are in very difficult positions. Overall, as a group, they have been permitted to continue way too long. There are no good solutions and the state of Texas seems to be approaching this with the extra resource/attention it requires. Frankly, I have been impressed so far.

You need to STFU. It just angers me the way you double/triple speak, spin, and twist. I'd love to understand you true motivations and why you continue. You certainly are not what you say you are.

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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. Do you understand that they pulled their kids out of school to home
Edited on Tue Apr-29-08 04:49 PM by superconnected
school them nearly 8 years ago while they are forbidden to read any books except the book of mormon and the bible, with their former leader Jeffs sugesting they not even read those two books but let the church interpret them for them.

They are also encouraged to not watch tv or have internet in their homes. All of their information comes from their leaders. They believe nothing that doesn't get told to them by their leaders. They're told everything the outside world says are lies.

Even basketball - their former favorite passtime was banned.

This really is a supressive booty farm for old men. It is no place for children. They cannot learn there. They don't even get a home school education because they can't read books. Did you know before they pulled the kids out of school they were allowed to go to the 8th grade in a public school - even though the sect members were running the place? Things went way down when their last lunatic leader declared himself god, decided the apoclapse was coming soon and ended education.

What I'm trying to say is, this isn't some 60's anti-establishment commune. It's a ceritifed brainwashed cult.

The former sect leaders sister says he drowned a deformed baby. Killing retarded children has also been cited by parents of said children in documentaries on that cult.


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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
36. Whether they were blood siblings is irrelevant. Young children have been
torn away from the people to whom they have become bonded. The potential for psychological damage is huge.
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TaffyMoon Donating Member (257 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
39. The kids were sick when they were taken - untreated ailments at the compound.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think the CPS and the state of Texas
are doing all that they can to insure that the health of the children is protected. It is sad that siblings aren't together, but that is hard to do when the children don't really know who their true siblings are.

Any indication when the DNA testing will be done? Will the results be used to demand child support from the fathers of the children? I hear that this group abuses welfare by declaring the "spiritual wives" "single moms" who then are given money. It seems to me that the fathers should be liable for the money.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I didn't see an update on DNA testing. Musing on "family".
Aside from the statutory rape, and other negativities of this case, it makes me ponder what constitutes a "family", a "mother"? Is it genetic mom/dad/offspring living under 1 roof? Is it non-genetic adult(s)/child(ren) living as a group? Is it a set of person or people living together without any genetic links? I wonder what the genetics will show, and what will happen then. What if genetically linked people were not part of same "group"? What if they were?


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BadgerKid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. Family is what those involved make it.
Edited on Tue Apr-29-08 03:51 PM by BadgerKid
Generally, I think of it as a group of people with a set of shared, formative life experiences. I don't think age or genetics matters. (For example, I do not have genetic links with my parents (sic).)
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fed_up_mother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. Not sure this group is abusing welfare
Many of these groups do, including the FLDS. However, this "Zion" was heavily supported by the other communities. This was "the place" to be.
Zion was even more secluded than other compounds, and being supported by the others probably made that possible. They may not have had to interact with state agencies.

That's just speculation on my part.
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. half of the women with children are on welfare - look at the wiki for hilldale.
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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
5. Wow no more than 15...
Try taking care of 15 kids at a time. I feel for these kids even if I think that the FLDS is a patriarchal crazy house.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. That is 15/caseworker, not to take care of.
Caseworkers supervise the care, placement, so forth. They are not doing the actual care.
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. A rather startling program on NPR(Jefferson State Radio)for south central Oregon...
and northern California Sunday am was discussing the inbreeding that had taken place in this group, the recessive gene that has caused some real problems in some of these kids, and malformed and mentally deficient kids also in this group.

Haven't heard any follow up on this. But, inbreeding over time does take some bad turns. Some of these kids apparently need plenty of medical care that they have not been receiving.

As to the comment that these 'single moms' go on welfare...anyone remember the Green case in Utah a few years ago(Green finally was sentenced to prison)? His wives were also classed as 'single moms' and were drawing something like $6000/month in aid money and benefits. All the 'wives' were involved in soliciting magazine subscriptions by telephone for family income.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Is that who used to call at dinner time and want me to buy magazines?
Not really, but maybe?

As there are not birth certificates for all members, there also are not death certificates.

Babyland cemetery
http://www.childrenshealthcare.org/polygamous.htm
"Washington County, Utah, prosecutor Brock Belnap is investigating deaths of children in the FLDS community popularly known as Short Creek and incorporated as Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Arizona. Child advocates have found 180 marked graves of children and 58 unmarked graves of babies in the towns’ cemeteries."
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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. After hearing about dehydration, loss of weight and respiratory problems...
I hope that they supervise the care better.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. You are assuming the children were in perfect health
400+ kids. The repository and dehydration could be common colds and they are being hostipalized to ensure the children get the absolute best care.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #25
34. Ear infections and chickenpox are normal things to have.
I'm glad they got medical care to make sure they didn't get sicker.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
11. and, according to the NYT this morning, more than half the teenage girls
are either pregnant, or have given birth, or both.

even if these children are placed in foster care, with loads of counseling, are they ever going to be able to blend into mainstream society?
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
21. "Eight children from one monogamous family "
Interesting. I didn't know that the FLDS compound had non-polygamous families too.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. They do not
It simply means that man has not been given more brides by the Prophet yet. They are not allowed to choose monogamy.
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ckramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
22. All the government needs to do is rasing the marriage age to at least 18
Edited on Tue Apr-29-08 02:50 PM by ckramer
and prosecuting anyone who violates the law.

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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. That is what it is in AZ where their main city is
That is one reason many of these young girls were sent to TX.
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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #22
37. Then they'd better raise the age of consent in statutory rape cases to 18, too.
These are not legal marriages, so there is no basis for a bigamy charge.

Making it illegal to have sex with a girl younger than 18 would cause some, er, problems in the dominant culture, I suspect.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #22
38. Which Government?
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