FLDS Court Fight Heats Up

Source: http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_9361767?source=rv

FLDS: Texas court fight heats up
State appeals Thursday's ruling, releases Jeffs' photos with a young girl as 12 FLDS children reunite with parents
By Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 05/24/2008 07:27:15 AM MDT

polygamy
Photographs submitted into evidence in a Texas court hearing Friday showing FLDS leader Warren Jeffs with a young girl. The photos are dated July 27, 2006. The Salt Lake Tribune blurred the girl's face. (Trent Nelson/The Salt Lake Tribune)

SAN ANGELO, Texas - A single photograph introduced in court Friday could define Texas' case against a polygamous sect: FLDS leader Warren S. Jeffs cradling a 12-year-old girl in his arms and kissing her, a state attorney said, "how a husband would kiss a wife."
The photo was introduced in a custody hearing for an infant born nearly two weeks ago to Louisa Bradshaw Jessop, whose two older children were taken into state care during an April raid on the sect's YFZ Ranch in west Texas.
The court-approved raid, which removed more than 450 children, was based on the state's belief that young girls were being wed to older men and that boys were being groomed to continue the practice.

http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_9361767?source=rv

No link yet.

Okay I can see the mom's and kids sharing space, chores, schooling and religious beliefs etc.. but the brainwashing, rape and pedephilia is disqusting. They may try to pull the wool over our eyes and say this is religious beliefs but that is a bunch of bull. This is the United States of America where we are supposed to be protecting children from this!

screwed the pooch on this one. At least the feds didn't murder everyone like in Waco.

Shit that goes on within that "church" is so much worse than what these charges are for.

This is like saying RCC priests molest children. So anyone that takes thier children to a RCC church should have their parental rights terminated for endangering the children. Sexual abuse has occured there and will reoccur. But they wouldn't dare do that to catholics. There are way too many of them. Safety in numbers.

who are openly letting it happen (12 y.o. girls kissing and having sex with 50 yo men!) I don't like the catholic church either because they attract pedophiles. My brother was molested by a pedophile in his early teens (actually by a gardener for a catholic monastery we lived near by) and died two years ago after living on the streets as an alcoholic for 25 years(at age 44). I'm sorry but like I said above they are using religion to do things that are not legal. If the mothers had a say and would just stand up for their kids protection. That is different. If an 18 yo woman wants to marry (or even have kids out of wedlock) a 50 yo man then that is her choice. But it's the young teens having babies just to be machines for these old mens ego's. Disgusting!

I grew up in Baltimore. My parents were the only people on our block that owned the land our house sat on. The rest was owned by the RCC. We were an Island in the RCC compound so to speak. There were children that told their parents of the abuse. They refused to believe thier child. In Baltimore the police refused to take reports on or investigate the abuses. None of that came out until one kid shot the priest that abused him. Even in the light of the inactions by police. There were still people that wanted to lock that kid up and throw away the key. For no other reason than he shot a priest. They didn't want to hear anything beyond that.

RCC parents didn't deliberately hand over their children to priests to be united in "spiritual marriages." Some parents might have found the abuse too hard to believe -- but they certainly would have thought it was abuse, if they could have brought themselves to believe it.

the pedophile cultists?

Check http://www.aclutx.org/article.php?aid=576">this out.

...to an identified individual?

The word for this is pederasty. It's still sick and perverted and I hope Warren Jeffs spends the rest of his days behind bars and away from women of any age.

with all the law suits against the RCC, parents I think have realized that their priests are not GOD. I think if parents with the RCC should all be watching out for their kids. Heck after what happened to my brother any adult is a potential pedophile in my eyes (youth groups, boy scouts are other area's where they gather). These kids in the FDLS are brain washed into believing that sex at age 13 with a 50 yo is okay and parents are okay with it. This is totally wrong. Yes it happens all the time outside the FDLS but these kids usually don't have parents who encourage it (most of these parents are trying to survive themselves)

their children to adults for ritual sex (or "spiritual marriages.")

The Bible only recognizes two stages of human existence. Child and adult. Adulthood begins at puberty. It's not just their religion that this is found in. It's all the mainstream religions. I can see the culture clash in this because of the new concept of an extended childhood we now call adolescence. That is foreign concept to many bibles. Being fundamentalists they want to stay as close to the Garden of Eden as possible. While apparently you want to get as far away from it as possible. They would see you as being denatured. If you force them to accept your new doctrine of adolescence. Then they would believe that you are trying to denature them. Make them something other than what God made them. If your gonna get mad at somebody over this. Then get mad at God. He's the one that started it all. They are simply following his original plan.

that takes precedence.

The Bible doesn't advocate child marriages, it reports them. And it was written in an era when the average lifespan was only a few decades long and when girls in general got their periods at significantly older ages than they do now.

But again, none of that matters. Civil law takes precedence, no matter what these people believe.

law cannot trump constitutional ANYTHING.

to the right of a child to be safe from harm. The child has his or her own right to life and liberty, that can't be trumped by the parent's religious belief. This has been decided at the Supreme Court level.

That simply because you cannot be born a Mazadian or Zoroastrian. You Must choose to follow Ahura Mazda. This is the Ahuvata which is part of the Navjote (Nativity or induction ceremony.) So I really don't have a problem with that line of thought. But for me to require that of others. It's seems to me like I'm forcing my religious veiws upon them. As both an American and Zoroastrian. I cannot do that. My religion requires me to repect the religious views if others and even fight for them. Because there is only One God. Simply Our (everyones) God. By what ever name He has lead you to know Him by. He is Our (everyones) God. Jews, Christians, Muslims, and even the FLDS are our younger Brothers and Sisters. All I can say, The eyes of the Magi are upon Texas. Harm them not!

No baby water-boarding, for instance.
No forced marriages of barely pubescent girls.
No arbitrarily removing children from one family and sending them to live with another.
No tossing out teenage boys because they're competing with the old men for the young females.

(Didn't it ever seem ironic to you that a group that allowed its leader to mix and match families at will -- where many children didn't even seem to know which of the adults were their biological parents -- seemed so outraged at the state's taking custody in order to protect the children? )

The bible doesn't place adulthood at an age like we now do. It places it at an event. That event is puberty. regardless of if puberty hit you at 11, 13, 16 or 18. Once you hit puberty you are biblically an adult.

I'm 76. I'm guessing your much younger. I could say you are but a child to me. You would protest that you are an adult. It's the same with them. You say they are a but a child. They say they've been through puberty why are you calling this adult a child?

I understand that life expectancy has doubled since Biblical times. From 35 to 70. So shouldn't we also double when you become an adult? Take it from 13 to 26. If you don't agree with doubling the age of when you become an adult. Welcome to the FLDS. You now wear their shoes.

Your defense of these cretins is disgusting.

That's how it was.

in the U.S.

of adulthood?

I know it's not in the New Testament but perhaps I missed it somewhere in the Old.

The tradition of Barmitzvah (male) and Batmitzvah (Female.)This is a celebration to mark the child's passage into adulthood at puberty. Now the ceremony is commonly held when the person reaches 13.

Even in my own religion Ahura Mazda (Wise Lord AKA God) says that we can marry at Puberty. This is straight from Gods mouth to Zoroaster's ears.I follow a Wise Lord and I accept this new found Wisdom of adolescence. But NEVER would I turn to God and say this new Wisdom means you were wrong before. Nor would I turn to a fundamental Zoroastrian and say, You are wrong to follow God in this old way. I would cut my own tongue out first. I also see the wisdom in not immediately accepting a new found Wisdom. Sometime what people consider to be great new found wisdoms turn out to be great fallacies. Like Eugenics. They thought it was great new wisdom. It was actually a great fallacy. Thank God everyone didn't immediately jump on board with that. Because some of us might be here today if they did.

at about the age of 25.

It would certainly make a lot more sense than 13, when a girl's skeleton structure hasn't even been developed.

You're right. Let's raise the age of adulthood to 26.

This is why I tell my students they shouldn't even consider marriage until their early 30s, when their brains are actually matured, and they've had a few years to develop some sort of permanent identity.

One of the most common complaints during divorces? "They changed." Yep, quite normal to change during development. At age 1, most were not walking, were pooping on themselves, and spoke no recognizable language. We're glad they changed!

And anyone who doesn't understand that Warren Jeffs is running a booty farm for old perverts isn't paying attention. Even the brother of the girl in this photo says he sees nothing wrong with it, because it is Jeffs doing it>

One of the mothers in court at the appeal says she considers Jeffs "perfect."

"Once you hit puberty you are biblically an adult. "


You can validate this with scripture, yes?

(You see, I've read quite the opposite and am wondering how you yourself have reached this particular interpretation)

by men. My grandpa told me a long time ago that the religion was invented to control a wide body of people and that is the only thing that has made sense to me. If you look back into the times when the bible was supposedly written people were not expected to live long and yes women were having children very young so they would still be alive to care for them. Fifty year olds having sex with 13 yo is pedophilia.

But any way here it goes. Yes I have talked to God and still do. It was durring what is now called a near death experience when I was 16. But I was dead. I'm talking sheet over the head, toe taged, waiting to be taken to the morgue, and doctor filing out a death certificate DEAD. God sent me back with my Holy Orders. That began an obsession with learning other languages. I was searching all the worlds languages to find the words to accurately describe how beautiful He is and the love I felt from Him. Sadly enough the words do not exist in any combination. They all pale in comparison. So I nolonger believe in God. Because I now know He exists. Belief is just a path and Knowledge it's destination. I'm There. I know God exists and he reavealed Himself to me as Ahura Mazda. Aw crap. Now I'm gonna cry. I miss being with Him and standing in His Light soooo much. But just like my biological father. I know he's still with me and smiling down upon me.

it's OK to fuck little girls?

Funny God you got there.

I'm glad he's giving me the cold shoulder.

The twelve and thirteen year old girls Jeffs "married" were living among adults who were fully aware of what was going on and failed to protect her. The sister-in-law of one of these girls said, in court the other day, that as far as she was concerned, Jeffs is "perfect."

Catholic lay people had no more idea that their children were being molested than parents of children in public school, who sometimes find that their children have been molested by teachers. And in both situations, the parents acted against the children's molesters -- they didn't defend them. They didn't insist, even after the molesters had gone to jail, that the molesters were "perfect."

Imagine a few hundred people move into your town and, because they are all living on a compound, don't pay taxes, take up local jobs, and act like Jesus personally wipes their collective asses.

I also wonder what percentage of adults would be listed as sex offenders if they gathered up children from the rest of the population, separated them from their parents, and questioned them endlessly? Stopitnow.org says 1/3 of all girls will face sexual abuse during their childhood, usually by a relative.

I'm not surprised they found a few real offenses in the sweep of 450 kids.

That still doesn't make what the state did right.

The sad thing is that this will unravel and the real abuse will go on because the CPS didn't respect people's rights, due process, or the merest shield of professionalism.

You are waaay off. Please start Googling that sect. Read what the former members say.

Ignorance is not bliss.

and because the FLDS have money up the wazoo to pay lawyers.

They can't even figure out what kids go with what parents. This is because this would really prove that most of the mom's had kids way under aged. They are all so brainwashed it is very sad.

the FLDS have money up the wazoo to pay lawyers.

Go to teh Google and seek for "western precision". Thusly, ye will see just how the money happened to come up their wazoo. :grr:

http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_9359188

let CPS determine parentage before returning the kids to the sect. how many actual "mothers" and "FATHERS" are involved!

One of my favorite sayings of Ron Paul.

The government of Texas does not own those children, so it needs to stop acting like it does. It's really that simple. You can't just treat all of the 400+ kids like cattle. Each one is an individual whose case must be decided on the merits.

As much as you're referring to the state, your post could just as easily be transferred in context to that of the church-- which also does not own the children, nor should it treat them like cattle.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, you see...

Nobody seems to give a rats ass about it. I guess if you live in a religious compound, the rules are different.

other teen brides?

But why believe a pregnancy test when you can look it up on the internet.

:sarcasm:

and anyone with a lick of sense knows it.

Well we've been waiting. In that time we've discovered that Pregnant teen aren't pregnant or even teens. 12 of the children are being returned to their parents. People aren't going to wait until every child is 18 to see the evidence against the FLDS.

Don't you think that's kind of strange? Why were mothers refusing to identify their own children? Or will it turn out that they weren't the biological mothers of the children?

We can't send those children back without knowing who their mothers are.

Earlier, that "unclaimed" number was 100, now it's up to 124. Hmm. I suppose tomorrow, you'll be saying "150" because no one's acting outraged enough by that lie. At any rate, that number was based on the earliest filed suits, which have since been amended with names of parents, so the children are no longer "unclaimed."

dg

Here you go, a copy of the emergency motion filed on Friday.

http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/EmergencyMotion.pdf

CPS is lying. Go figure. They know which parents go with which child. They've set up visitation for the mothers & service plans with all children accounted for, along with status hearings for the parents. Besides which, they have required each attorney representing a parent to file a "Notice of Appearance" identifying their client & client's children, along with dates of birth.

But don't let the truth get in the way of your witch-burning party.

dg

And at least one of the "sisters" became a "mother" when she realized she was about to be separated from her child.

It will be interesting to see those DNA results.

They will not listen to it. They will even retalliate if you force them to listen to the truth. They will do a complette 180 and go from getting ready to give you your kids back. After you jump through a few more hoops for them. To terminating your parental rights. They are some of the most vendictive bastards I have ever seen in my life. Vendetta appears to be part of their policies.

You appear to have a personal bias against the CPS.

I can't help that.

I think that forms more of a Balance than a Bias. The Bias would be in thinking CPS can do no wrong and the FLDS can do no right. I have seen that in the FLDS threads.

I have seen your bias in that FLDS can do no or little wrong, and CPS can do no or little right. That is bias also.

Just like the Police are in. But teh police have no legal obligation to protect you what so ever.

Once you introduced the word 'genocide' into your arguments, I think you've given up any claim to balance and revealed your bias for all to see...

But you've swallowed the lies hook, line, & sinker, so I'll stop trying to confuse you with the truth.

And I think it's a bit heartless to blast a woman for "lying" about her age when CPS gives her the false choice of being an adult & leaving her child to suffer in CPS Hell alone or be a minor & stay with her child to protect him/her as best she could.

dg

They also believe themselves to be in the hands of an enemy. The Jews and lewish sympathizers lied to the Nazi's. No I'm not a Jew. That's not a stinking jew*! That's my cousin and he's a good German! People will lie to protect themselves or other from harm or what they believe to be harm. You would too.

* to accurately reflect the times and atmosphere. Not antisemitism.

is true.

And this was happening from the time they were still in the ranch. It wasn't something that just happened when they separated the last group of children.

We'll see what happens with the DNA results. Until then, there's no reason for me to believe the "truth" of an FLDS apologist.

Hell, CPS still can't tell just how many kids they have in custody & even forgot one at the Coleseum! So, yeah, I'm gonna believe they accurately wrote down what the women told them.

But, fine, don't believe me. Just keep denying the truth as it comes out.

dg

to have inside information.

I'll wait until the Court decides which child belongs to which parents.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/nation/stories/DN-polygamists_25tex.ART.State.Edition2.467ff56.html

is one of the tenets of the LDS cult, and de facto of the FLDS cult.

http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

uppity's article is spot-on, "lying was duty".

They are of the angra mainyu (evil spirits) and serve Ahriman (the destroyer.)

don't figure into your revelation. what a surprise, not.

Go back to your home planet where feMALE's have pyramidal baby bumps.

:rofl:

Yeah, it's a mans world. But I didn't make it that way. Just like I've never owned a slave. I won't take that crap from African Americans. Nor will I take it from women. It's not my fault. I didn't do it. Now what was that you were saying about that was then and this is now? :eyes:

if you were to be constantly referred to as a woman, and expected to accept that you were invisible as far as the human race goes.

feminists, both male and female, agree that they both have a role in changing the "mans (sic) world" to EVERYONE'S world.

only cowards and bullies feel comfortable saying "i didn't make it that way" ("therefore i am not responsible now").

And your evidence that CPS knows the precise and legal parentage of each and every child is....?

(Don't let the evidence get in the way of your oh-so-trendy anti-state party. Filed under 'six of one and half a dozen of the other'...)

I'm not inclined to believe them. One girl they said was a teen. CPS refused to accept her drivers license as proof of age. It does no good to tell CPS who your children are. If they won't listen to you so they can go to the press and court and say. They won't tell us who their children are.

That should be very interesting.

I think not.

and some are claiming they were that young when they were forced into marriage.

Her lawyer merely said that she was the only 14 year old at the time, and she wasn't pregnant, so the state must be wrong about a pregnant 14 year old. But the state hadn't said there was currently a 14 year old that was pregnant, just that it had happened in the recent past. And there ARE 18 year olds with preschoolers in the group.

Her lawyer had the pregnancy done to defeat CPS's claim that she was pregnant.

SHE was pregnant. They didn't know how many of the girls might be pregnant.

This lawyer had the test done to show that his client wasn't among them.

They've had these folks for a couple of weeks now.

Does CPS have evidence of an adult having sex with a minor in Eldorado, Texas or not?

And by that I mean is there an individual minor that they can point out and say, "This minor was raped."

Because if they do not have specific evidence of sexual abuse, regardless of what Warren Jeffs did, or what goes on in Colorado City / Hilldale, or what ex-members say, they are going to need to have specific evidence that a specific individual minor was sexually abused if they are going to end up doing anything but sending everyone back home.

cancel ever releasing a parenting book she wrote because of her daughters unwed teen pregnancy.

But you're right -- in the picture of her sitting down, that looks like something more than a child's round belly.

Pregnant women don't have divets in their stomachs. A bunched dress can, and this one does, have a divet in it. If she were standing up straight and still had the bulge. You might have something there. But I don't see the bulge in the photo of her standing next to Jeffs. Bad tailor and bunched dress.

I find it repulsive. But she does appear to be very happy. But like I said, pictures can be deceiving.

Look at the "kids" in the Vacation movies. Michael Anthony Hall was about 30 when those movies were made. The girl that played his little sister was about 45 when those movies were made. Looks can be deceiving. Hollywood has made untolled fortunes on that deception.

because without the FLDS case in the news, R. Kelly would be ran on a loop nonstop as the worst child molester in the country.

was made in 1983 which would make him 15 years old. His sister, played by Dana Barron was two years older. Thirty five? Where do you come up with this stuff?

But I've also heard other people say he's a lot older than what he looks.

But he and she were actually around the ages they were supposed to be. Aw, youth and how fast it goes!

She is named in the Bishop's record, and she was 12 at the time of the photos.

Which is my point.

along with the photos. And the opposing attorney didn't question the validity of the evidence -- just its relevance.

http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_9361767

Griffith would not divulge the origin of the photos, but provided the court with a 2003 bishop's record that included a birth date indicating the girl was 12 at the time - July 27, 2006 - a month before Jeffs was arrested in Nevada after being on the lam for nearly two years.
Rod Parker, an FLDS spokesman, called the state's use of the photographs of Jeffs a "gratuitous publicity stunt by CPS which doesn't go to the issue at court, which is whether a baby is in immediate danger by what someone else did."


____________________

FYI, the photos were introduced during a hearing involving an adult brother of the girl, who certainly knows who is sister is and how old she is.

That could be why he's not saying where it came from. It could be ruled as Inadmissable. He can be compelled in court to say where it came from and the photo excluded from evidence if he doesn't.

This isn't a criminal case, remember? It's a child custody case and that goes by different rules.

It's really that simple. Many states have ruled that CPS must abide by due process.

Whatever the due process requirements may be -- and they do differ between criminal and civil cases -- they have been fulfilled.

Lawyers cry foul in FLDS seizures

Many lawyers for children and parents in a Texas polygamist sect are boiling mad about the growing number of legal errors they claim the state has made in seizing and holding more than 460 children.

From the way officials handled an April anonymous phone tip about a sexually abused girl allegedly at the sect's ranch, the seizure of the children, the court hearings and the questioning of children and parents alike, many attorneys are crying foul.



Now this does not specifically say they are challenging the picture and bishops record. But that would come under denial of due process. The picture forms an accusation. They have the right to confront the accuser aka the person that provided the picture AKA the accusation. It clearly violates chain of custody rules for evidence. They not only have to say where they got the picture. But everywhere that picture has been until it reacted that court. If they cannot present a clear chain of custody. then it must be thrown out. Like I said not even CPS can keep due process out of court. But they sure are trying like all hell and that doesn't look good on them.

They are also being denied freedom of speech.

SAN ANGELO — Texas child welfare officials acknowledged today that the agency has isolated the children it removed from a polygamist community from any mention of the group's spiritual leader, who was convicted as an accomplice to rape last year for arranging the marriage of a 14-year-old girl.

The name of Warren Jeffs cannot be uttered, even by family members visiting their children in foster care at facilities around the state, a Child Protective Services attorney confirmed.





This is turning into an all out assault on the first amendment by Texas. Oh yes the lawyers will Mess With Texas over this! They will Mess With Teaxs real bad.

Personally I would engage in civil disobedience. I would have all the mother go in and sing and scream WARREN JEFFS at the top their lungs. Then double dog dare CPS to try to terminate the court ordered visitations. If they did I would haul them before the Judge and demand that they cited with Contempt.

By what authority does CPS impose a gag order? The court isn't the only one over stepping their authority. At this point it really wouldn't surprise me if CPS told Judge Walther. We don't need you anymore. Well set up our own court and do this ourselves. After all we're already handing out gag orders and we'll decide the custody matters too.

How's the economy inside that compound work, anyone?

And since he is "perfect," he gets as much as he wants.

The "unmarried" wives apply for welfare and food stamps for their children, which also get turned over to the sect leaders.

system. Do you also deny the "sister wives" applying for those as well?

a revolting "anniversary" card commemorating Jeff's union with a 12 year old.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/23/hearing-includes-photos-of-sect-leader-kissing/

How tall is this man? He could be six something, and she could be four something. There are many combinations of size between couples. So far there has been a distortion of the facts. I do not choose to defend this religion, but let the facts come out. In the mean time it makes me wonder why this community that supposedly had rampid abuse for many years is now being used to distract the public from huge issues going on. Like why are we imprisoning children in our own jails because they are being rounded up in immigrations raids? Lots of innocent people? This is also going on in Texas too.

and the testimony of her own adult brother.

She was twelve at the time of the photos.

From the link at the OP:

Griffith would not divulge the origin of the photos, but provided the court with a 2003 bishop's record that included a birth date indicating the girl was 12 at the time - July 27, 2006 - a month before Jeffs was arrested in Nevada after being on the lam for nearly two years.
Rod Parker, an FLDS spokesman, called the state's use of the photographs of Jeffs a "gratuitous publicity stunt by CPS which doesn't go to the issue at court, which is whether a baby is in immediate danger by what someone else did."

when women who've been stripped of their civil rights so CPS can add another pregnant teenager to their tally want to use that information, the State insists the FLDS records are falsified.

Now when THEY want to use the same records, the records are true & accurate.

The State can't have it both ways. The records cannot be both accurate AND falsified.

dg

with the records before the CPS got hold of them, falsified or erased certain individual entries.

In the case of this (now) 13 year old, the Bishop's record with her birth date came not from the most recent year, but from 2003. Maybe they hadn't gotten back that far in covering their tracks.

You're also overlooking the fact that the sect's attorney didn't object to the age as being wrong -- just irrelevant. And the girl's adult brother didn't say it was wrong either.

to get around your side's hypocritical position on the accuracy of the Bishop's Records.

dg

2003 Bishop Records. That's a fact in evidence, and it hasn't been disputed by the attorneys on the other side.

And it is certainly POSSIBLE, as I said, that they changed some records but not others. But the only reason I said that was because of your claim that the records were either entirely accurate or entirely not accurate.

on the accuracy of the Bishops Records, not the photos. When FLDS women wanted to use them to prove their age, the State said they could be falsified & inaccurate. Yet when the State needs those same records to support its argument, they were chiseled in stone & sent down the mountain with Moses.

Can't have it both ways, sorry. The records are either accurate or they're falsified. They cannot be both.

dg

to protect themselves.

But they are highly unlikely to have falsified the records in order to make a girl appear YOUNGER than she actually is.

You can't have it both ways. The records are either accurate or not. Not both.

dg

That is the only truth here.

It is entirely possible for some of the records to be inaccurate and others not. Ever have a mistake on your checking account?

I have. Were all the other 30,000 depositors also in error? Nope.

If this record was wrong, the sect attorney would have argued that. He didn't. He just said it didn't matter. If you cannot understand that, then you are being as willfully ignorant as the women of this cult who answer that "THEY" never saw anything wrong at any time with any one.

Pretty fancy lying from plain people.

Go back & read my posts. The State argues that the records are accurate ONLY when it serves their purposes. When an FLDS woman tries to use them to prove her age, the State argues the records are falsified. The State can't have it both ways.

dg

1. outlaw "spiritual marriage"
2. enforce minimum age marriage law;
3. legalize polygamy in the general public;

If this Jeff guy has had to legally marry all his brides, I bet he would never want to 'marry' this many.

how do you enforce any state laws when a community of people lives within a closed compound, sends unhappy wives to sect-run mental hospitals, doesn't send its children to public schools (where they might be exposed to information about abuse), and doesn't allow other people in?

lots of things can be revealed and exposed.

Yep, legalize polygamy could fix this problem.

But I'll not disturb you with another one of my crazy legal theories.

After the Lawrence decision, they know it's coming. And they have no clue how to write an opinion affirming bigamy laws when it is not illegal to father children out of wedlock & not support the mothers & children.
dg

If they take it to SCOTUS as a law imparing the obligations of the CONTRACT of marriage. Bye Bye law. The same with Gay Marriage. When it comes to the contract of marriage. The states are saying that you must have a sole source contract (polygamy)and it must be an opposing source contract (Gay Marriage.) You may not have multiple sources or same source Contracts. This denies polygamists and homosexuals freedom of contract. Just a crazy legal theory.

I'm looking at it from the standpoint that DAs in Texas would rather not prosecute someone for bigamy. They've got more important things to do. As the statute is written in Texas, all it would take is one pissed-off spouse making a police report about a cheating spouse who has shacked up with another & had children with that person, and bang, we're back to the scarlet letter days. Not too many cops want to write that report & even less DAs want to waste time & $ prosecuting it.

So, essentially as it stands now, a married man could be prosecuted for having affairs & bringing his mistresses into his household to support them & his children, while another married man could have affairs, leave his mistress in a lurch & never support his children.

Unfortunately for Texas, the legislature was not shy about stating that the law was written specifically with the FLDS in mind. Whoopsie, won't hold water Constitutionally, as you can't use the law to target one group. You have to mean it to apply to everyone.

dg

So there will be nothing more important than getting the FLDS.

I don't think a Bill of attainder claim will hold water. It's not like Terry's law. They'll simply say the law applies to everyone. Not just the FLDS. Unless they were dumb enough to call it the FLDS Bigamy bill. Then you've got them on Bill of attainder. But otherwise they'll say it applies to everyone.

It was all about "getting" the FLDS. Quite an interesting read.

dg

But not bill of attainder. You would have to prove that this law only applies to the FLDS. That's a pretty big burden. They would only have to produce one prosecution of a non FLDS person to shoot down your claims. Personally I would rather argue technical merrits of contractual law than something that required a burden of proof on my behalf. But again, I'm a priest and not a lawyer. So my opinion and 5.00 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

It appears that the current marriage law is out-dated.

Legalizing gay-marriage is pro-love;

Legalizing polygamy marriage is pro-family, imo.

cause other problems for them?

It might sound like a great idea but it comes with a whole lot of child molestation.

What will Walther do, given yesterday's appeals court ruling?

Here's a question: The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services had all the power in the world to structure status hearings held this week in any order it wanted. It kept telling us, the media and the public, that there were 31 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 who were pregnant, mothers or both.

Now we know the truth: There are only five girls in that group. All but one are or will be 18 this year. One gave birth when she was 17, three when they were 16. One is pregnant.

I kept asking the state for a breakdown by age of the 31 girls, the 60 percent, it claimed were pregnant or mothers. They refused weeks ago and still haven't done it.

Now we know why.

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/2008/05/crumbling-case.htm

There have been 10 of the 31 acknowledged to be older. That still leaves 21 to be determined.

All CPS is waiting on is the status hearings to declare them to be adults again.

dg

I'll wait till I hear it in court, thanks.

to participate. Guess we'll find out why.

In future criminal prosecutions, flight is evidence of guilt in Texas.

For Texas to ascribe motive to the flight beyond that. It calls for presumption and conclusion. The presumption and conclusion can form a Legal Fiction. But some courts are big fans of legal fiction. The motivation for the flight of these men can also be religious. In my religion to take my blood and use it against me to cause me harm in any way is an evil form of blood magic. My blood can only be used to help or heal me and no other purpose.

of guilt. It's the penal code, it's not any kind of fiction, it's the law.

Please do not expect me to subscribe to your internalized experience based on lack of oxygen to the brain for a certain period of time. In another culture, you'd have seen a giant snake for instance. If there actually is a Gawd, he's insane, mean, or just uncaring based on the results daily observed in this domain.

Why not go to their own FLDS site and look at the daily list of activities that they themselves have posted? You will find children from the age of 2 being subjected to 4 or more hours of religious "indoctrination" a day, sweeping floors, washing dishes, and other chores. You will find no play, no pets, and no fun.

If I could snap my fingers and make all the idiot mean grownups who hate and harm children in the world disappear, I would. Meantime, I'll just have to work through the legal system. Maybe you like it when people "bleed the beast", as they call it. This means they take our tax dollars any way they can, systematically lie about anything and everything to us, the "Gentiles," and laugh about it later.

See, if there was a god of any kind, he or she couldn't live with that.

That is indeed a legal fiction. People can run because they FEAR being convicted of a crime they did not commit. It's like with an Alford Plea. Where you maintain your innocence. But conceed that the state has enough evidence to convict you. It is possible for innocent people to be sent to jail. IN REALITY. Just because someone flees does not mean that it is impossible for them to be innocent of the charges against them. But the law does allow the fact that they have fled to be offered as evidence of their guilt.

please post the direct statute that says it is.

dg

Okay?

§ 38.04. EVADING ARREST OR DETENTION. (a) A person
commits an offense if he intentionally flees from a person he knows
is a peace officer attempting lawfully to arrest or detain him.

on edit: (b)(1)
(b) An offense under this section is a Class B misdemeanor,
except that the offense is:
(1) a state jail felony if the actor uses a vehicle
while the actor is in flight and the actor has not been previously
convicted under this section;

Nice try, though. So far, law enforcement has issued no charges nor have they attempted to arrest anyone. Therefore no one has evaded arrest. Nowhere does it say in this statute that flight=automatic guilt of the charge the officer is attempting to arrest the person on.

:eyes:

dg

particular reason, then, right? And the state of Texas using flight as evidence of guilt should have been thrown out, right? OK. And the Burnett firm did not know the law. All right.

While I'm here, I might as well admit that all those men just coincidentally left the state rather than give a DNA sample. They love their children and would do anything to be with them, except give a cheek swab. And the lying about whose father is who and whose mother is who, and all the phony names given routinely or sometimes no last name at all on the national media, well, that's just proof they're just good upstanding citizens with nothing to hide, too.

And fraudulently collecting millions in welfare for the use of the top leadership and lying about property transactions, that's just good citizenry, too.

Anything else I can concede? I'm running out now to join the FLDS, the last true Americans, and the only way to prove you love your kids. Yippee!!! I'm gonna get a whole planet and be Jesus if only I can fuck enough teenagers who are mostly related to me anyway! Yahoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just arrest them for polygamy and be done with it.

The law will recognize one civil marriage but, no, if 20 adults of various sexes want to live together and call it whatever they want, there is no law against that.

What seems odd in this case is that CPS had better come up with at least one specific allegation of an adult having sex with a minor, and they better do it in pretty short order.

This is going to get very, very ugly before it's over. The FLDS will dig their heels in in the mistaken belief they've already won (both the court of law and the court of public opinion).

Appeal will follow appeal that will follow yet another appeal. The FLDS will most likely continue using religion as a Coward's Shield (and I imagine a lot of people will buy into that bit of church-sponsored propaganda if they haven't already) for the foreseeable future, not realizing that the courts have already separated and appropriately compartmentalized the religious aspect into a non-issue that will have little to no bearing on the hearings and the appeals.