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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 09:33 AM
Original message
FEMA trailer resident killed in standoff with police
Source: The Associated Press

June 4, 2008

FEMA trailer resident killed in standoff with police

The Associated Press

New Orleans police say a man is dead following a nearly 10 hour standoff.

Police say the standoff began Tuesday afternoon when the unidentified man chased away FEMA workers, who were at the victim’s Lakeview home to make arrangement to reclaim the trailer in which he was living.

Though he didn’t actually draw his gun, police say the man placed his hand on it near his waistband while ordering the FEMA workers to leave the trailer.

The workers called police, who tried to talk the man into leaving the house adjacent to the trailer, where he had locked himself in, but he refused.

~snip~


Read more: http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080604/NEWS/80604004



SWAT team surrounds man barricaded in FEMA trailer
by The Times-Picayune
Tuesday June 03, 2008, 6:08 PM

An NOPD SWAT team Tuesday afternoon surrounded a house in Lakeview as a resident who learned he was about to lose his trailer threatened a FEMA official with a gun and barricaded himself inside the trailer, police said.

http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2008/06/swat_team_surrounds_man_barica.html


And in related news.


FEMA Boots Katrina Victims From Trailers
Homeless After Hurricane, They Now Fear Homelessness Again
By JOHN HENDREN
NEW ORLEANS, June 1, 2008
http://www.abcnews.go.com/WN/Weather/story?id=4975561&page=1


Displaced by Katrina and edged out of FEMA trailer parks
Some Louisiana residents left homeless by the hurricane find themselves cast out again with the last emergency trailer parks set to close. A few cannot find housing; others wonder how long they can af ...
By Jenny Jarvie, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
June 1, 2008

BAKER, LA. -- Curtis Westbrook cut a lonely figure as he sat outside his trailer this week, chain-smoking as workmen hauled another empty trailer away.
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-trailers1-2008jun01,0,3811675.story


FEMA finishing closure of Louisiana trailer parks

By MICHAEL KUNZELMAN – 3 days ago

BAKER, La. (AP) — Cleveland Stampley grinned as he locked the door to his FEMA trailer one last time. Out front, a case worker's pickup truck waited to take him to his new home at a nearby apartment complex.

"Hope I ain't got to come back here for nothing else," the 59-year-old said as he carried one last load of belongings to the truck.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5ijwJXah656LDzz4ygWpnjXTgTEuAD910TKN80


But as we all know, nothing FEMA does makes much sense.

Toxic FEMA Trailers May See Comeback in 2008 Hurricane Season

Agency May Have to Supply Troubled Trailers if Disaster Strikes
FEMA may have to rely on so-called toxic trailers in hurricane season 2008 if disaster strikes again. Meanwhile, the agency is seeking alternatives for disaster housing.

In a new twist in the story of toxic FEMA trailers on the Gulf Coast, the government has admitted that it may end up housing disaster victims in the troubled dwellings once again this hurricane season, reports the Associated Press.

After reports of victims being poisoned by harmful off-gassing of formaldehyde from the trailers, FEMA began taking steps to move people out of them. However, the AP obtained a copy of the agency's 2008 hurricane preparedness report, which concluded that the head of FEMA could approve the use of similar trailers, as long as they meet the agency's standard for low formaldehyde levels.

http://www.thedailygreen.com/green-homes/eco-friendly/fema-trailers-2008-hurricanes-460603






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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. Damn, now the government is out and out killing the poor who get in their way.
What next?

As major businesses lay off workers and Factories close down and move to India the unemployment rate soars here in east TN. But the government in all it's brilliance has begun closing down unemployment offices. If you want to file for unemployment, you now have to drive 30 to 40 miles to find one.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. What's next? Well, Mayor Ray Nagin is offering them one way bus tickets
so that they take their troublesome selves someplace else and become someone else's problem.

Conservatives, bah!.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. lakeview is not "the poor" and i doubt nagin offered any bus tix to lakeview residents
Edited on Wed Jun-04-08 10:34 AM by pitohui


nagin is a pro-business republican who only ran as a democrat because a repug can't be elected as mayor in new orleans, to expect anything from him except business as usual is unrealistic, he was endorsed by other republications such as bobby jindal, but people who judge a man only by the color of his skin simply don't see nagin for what he is -- not saying that you do that, but from time to time i read pro-nagin stuff on this site and i'm like WTF
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ejpoeta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. it's brilliance!
with the gas prices so high, people who lose their jobs won't be able to afford the gas to go to the nearest office to sign up for unemployment. if they can't sign up for unemployment, then they don't count towards the unemployment numbers.
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daggahead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. If you want to file for unemployment, you now have to drive 30 to 40 miles to find one.
Well, at least that may help keep unemployment numbers down!
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
32. You have to go to an office? Here it's online/ over the phone application
and the offices are just to help with job placement, but the job databases are also online for free.
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coffeenap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
2. Oh, merh, this is just devastating!
Edited on Wed Jun-04-08 10:00 AM by coffeenap
There are no words. :cry:
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. What is scarey is, I can relate to the FEMA dweller, I know how
Edited on Wed Jun-04-08 10:03 AM by merh
it feels to have those "case workers" come out and harass you and threaten you with taking the trailer and treat you like some low life that they get to boss around and mistreat. I know the desperation and fear - I lived in it 25 months, I was on fema probation, subject to their rules that changed constantly, their inspections, their rudeness and intimidations.

My heart broke when I read this, but for the grace of god ....


And to read of all the evictions yet they may end up using the FEMA trailers this year in the event of other disasters? WTF?

:cry:

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jus_the_facts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
3. "SWAT team surrounds man barricaded in FEMA trailer"...
Edited on Wed Jun-04-08 09:51 AM by jus_the_facts
.....guess they should be used to it and not put up much of a fuss...I hate this world. :evilfrown:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4576651
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. he was barricaded in the upstairs of the house, not the trailer
Edited on Wed Jun-04-08 10:36 AM by pitohui
he was firing down on police officers and they worked many many hours to take him alive but he simply made it impossible, he didn't respond to gas, he shot at the police dog, they couldn't take him with nonlethal bullets...what else is left, he was shooting at people?

read the links to LOCAL reports

btw, lakeview is a wealthy white neighborhood so your photo is not quite apropos...this man was treated with kids gloves considering he first threatened un-armed FEMA employees with his gun and this is why the cops were called
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jus_the_facts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. Who does the LAW protect.......
Edited on Wed Jun-04-08 11:25 AM by jus_the_facts
.....even the SCOTUS can't really decide. :crazy:




Allison v. United States • Ð; 1895; 160 U.S. 203; 216
Is it reasonable to believe that you’re in immediate deadly danger if a person, known to be abusive, known to carry a pistol, and who has made public threats against your life, makes a motion as if to draw down on you, even if it turns out he wasn’t armed at the time YES; If there is no corroborating evidence besides your testimony, may the jury decide to take your word for it and acquit based on your credibility YES; If you have your deer rifle with you while visiting a friend’s house and your adversary shows up, and in an ensuing confrontation you shoot him, can the judge instruct the jury that you’re guilty of murder if you armed yourself to go hunt down your adversary, when there is no evidence to support this claim NO.


Gourko v. United States • Ð; 1894; 153 U.S. 183; 189
If you shoot someone who has repeatedly threatened you, and the circumstances of the shooting are not found to be justifiable as self defense, does the fact that you armed yourself in response to the threat automatically make the shooting murder (as opposed to manslaughter)
NO.

Rowe v. United States • Ð; 1896; 164 U.S. 546; 247
If a man is provoked into making a minor assault on someone, and then backs off in good faith, is his right to self defense restored if the person he assaulted attacks him with a deadly weapon? YES; Is he required to retreat under such circumstances ; Is he under an obligation to try to only wound an attacker when fighting for his life NO; Can either party in a mutual combat claim self defense NO.

Wallace v. United States • Ð; 1896; 162 U.S. 466; 224
Is it up to the jury to decide whether a homicide is murder, manslaughter or justifiable YES; Does a perfect right of self defense require blamelessness in the confrontation and an act of necessity only YES; Can you claim self defense if you had intentionally brought about a lethal conflict NO; Is it up to the jury to decide whether you armed yourself defensively or otherwise YES; Is it murder if you enter a quarrel without felonious or malicious intent, and then, under reasonable belief of imminent mortal danger, you kill the assailant NO; Does the fact that you deliberately go and arm yourself, for self defense or other innocent purpose, turn a subsequent shooting necessarily from manslaughter to murder NO.

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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
6. given my sardonic sense of humor...
given the levels of formaldehyde in those trailers, the guy won't need to go to an undertaker.

more shuffling the poor under the carpet.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
7. A failure of our medical system -
mental illness, untreated for years. He probably would have been able to help himself long ago, and probably would not have thought about shooting at the cops, in any case, if he had gotten the necessary medical care.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. lakeview is a wealthy white area, i presume he had medication resistant mental illness
Edited on Wed Jun-04-08 10:31 AM by pitohui
i'm not aware that he was denied medical care, his brother stated that he'd had a severe mental illness for many years and he sounded like he was pretty much at wit's end to know what else could have been done

neighbors were kept out of their home for 10 hours while NOPD tried to find a way to safely disarm the man, but he wasn't affected by the gas, he fired on the dog, he wasn't stopped by the nonlethal bullets, at some point, this man is firing down on police officers and presenting a hazard to the neighborhood and keeping others out of their homes...what do you do? if you don't want to get shot by police officers, the first rule of thumb is not to keep threatening and firing at them over several hours

if this had happened in a poor black neighborhood would they have invested so many hours trying to take him alive? that's a question i leave to the reader

i used to live in this neighborhood and as far as i can tell, the police did all they could and really went beyond what would normally be expected

some neighbors do want the trailers removed, this is probably why FEMA is coming into this particular neighborhood to remove trailers, it has been 3 years, although in my opinion it's going to take MUCH longer than that to make lakeview right
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. What you do is put a tranquilizer dart into him, not bullets!
He might die from the tranq, but for sure he'll die of the bullets!
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. the nonlethal bullets didn't work, what part of medication resistant are you missing?
Edited on Wed Jun-04-08 10:42 AM by pitohui
some people have very different body chemistries from others, esp. some of the violent mentally ill

they tried EVERYTHING over many hours, i just don't understand the second guessing here

if a neighbor or a police officer had been killed while they were screwing around doing everything to avoid taking down a violent person with a loaded gun OVER HOURS, we'd be reading posts like, "why didn't the cops do anything? is it because it's lakeview?"

as far as i can tell NOPD was put into a no win situation and at some point they had to stop this man from shooting at people
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. The neighbors had been moved out and cops should take risks - it's why they have the badge and gun
As to them having tried tranqing him, where are you getting that? I see nothing like that in those stories. Did I miss it?
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. it was stated in clear black and white that they used both gas and nonlethal bullets to no avail
Edited on Wed Jun-04-08 01:07 PM by pitohui
so yeah you obviously did miss it, at the end of the day, we can't read the news for you

it's clear this person did not have the normal responses to chemicals and the assumption that everyone can be treated/knocked out by drugs is just wrong
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. But they didn't use a tranq dart, so don't try to pretend that they did everything they could
The only gases that work worth a damn in non-enclosed space are teargas -sometimes- and the lethal ones. And "non-lethal" bullets don't do squat unless they hit the person's head, in which case they're very likely to be lethal as one poor woman found out in Boston after a Sox game.

And don't give me any attitude about my reading skills when you obviously didn't read, or didn't understand, or didn't care what you read.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. You wrote "presume" med resistant, he was UNTREATED for yrs
http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080604/NEWS/80604004
"The man’s brother told police that he was mentally ill and had been untreated for years, according to a statement from Officer Garry Flot, a police spokesman."
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. to clarify
it is obvious from what happened that the person did not respond normally to the gas (they were unable to use nonlethal methods, including at least two attempts at the gas) to bring him out without harming him

obviously we don't know the details but it seems clear that this person had an abnormal response to chemicals and, yes, i've known other people who have medication resistant mental illness, when the medicine doesn't do anything except cost you money and side effects, after all, these people do stop taking it -- they then are going untreated, but isn't it because there is no treatment for them?

we are only kidding ourselves when we pretend that we know how to cure every disease, we don't

from context it seems clear to me that this person didn't have a normal response to chemicals, be that as it may, the point is, the cops tried everything for 10 hours even tho this guy had a loaded gun and was shooting, at some point, what do you do? i don't think any of these second guessers could have handled it better

some cases are gray areas, but this one is pretty clear, an unhappy guy threatens people with a gun, and he got 10 more hours of life in lakeview than he would have received if he'd tried the same stunt in central city IMHO

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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. As merh wrote below "Katrina survivors don't get the emotional care they need"
There is a great need for mental health care, a whole lot that isn't being met. Katrina survivors don't have the resources or the money to pay for help. Add in the increasing numbers of vets coming back with shell shock, battle fatigue, PTSD, whatever you want to label it and there is whole lot of need being unmet.

Not arguing the handling of this case, but the need for more accessible, affordable, non-stigmatic mental health care. And appreciating having the need pointed out again.

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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. No, they don't
and living in an affluent area doesn't mean you have health insurance and have access to care. If the man was living like that he probably was unemployed with little money and no insurance and had no access to care. As far as resistance to chemicals in the post above, if the man was manic, that would make sense. It takes time and regular treatment to control what might be bipolar disorder.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. Never seen a tranquilizer gun used on a suspect.
This man used deadly force against the police, that pretty much rules out tranquilizer darts, tasers, etc. It sounds like shooting him was a last resort. They shot a woman in a nearby city who was in a wheelchair holding a butter knife, that is excessive force.

David
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. I know. Which is why we have so many more citizens killed by cops than cops killed b
by citizens. Probably it would be good for cops to be more at risk and citizens less.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. You think we should take their bullet proof vests away?
I've got a tip for people. If you don't want to get killed by the cops then don't shoot at them. That will take care of about 98% of the problem. The cops usually go to jail in the other 2% so that would take care of everything.

David

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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. No, I think they should be summarily fired at a minimum, and maybe do a manslaughter rap
unless they can present convincing evidence to the family and friends of the victim that there was NO OTHER OPTION than to kill the person. Not "no other risk-free option", no other option of any kind other than killing the person or walking away.

Cops have the entire resources of society behind them, and that's more than enough to overwhelm any individual no matter how deranged or drugged up. If cops don't want the risk of being wounded or killed, they should find other work. Cop mortality rate from hostile action is only 4% - if it weren't for deaths from accidents and general health issues, 96% would draw their lovely pension after 20. That's not even in the top 10 most dangerous occupations.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Probably less than 4% ever fire their weapon in the line of duty.
Of the officers that do, 99% of the time they are well within their legal guidelines to use deadly force. Again when they aren't they are usually There are links here once a week wanting Tasers removed from service. That is an effective relatively safe way to deal with individuals who are violently non-compliant. The police shouldn't have to convince the family and friends of the victim there was no other choice, that is just silly. They should have to convince internal affairs, shooting review panel, etc. and if need be a grand jury or a jury of their peers. By the way very few police, fire or any emergency service workers get to draw very much of those pensions, to many of the die of stress related illnesses.

David
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Sorry, no foxes judging the morality of henhouse raiding. The hens should do the judging
FBI stats claim that the average cop (not broken out further) lives only 5 years after retirement. I think we can safely presume "infant mortality" from failed health and suicide (factors that also affect non-cops) accounts for a large part of that, and the cops who live past the first years do as well as other people.

One ex-cop who went into psychology, Albert Seng, says that many retired cops suffer as though they've lost a loved one; they can't stand being "them", no longer having the badge and gun. That suggests to me that police recruitment and training standards are screwed. And of course we have other evidence for that, namely the willingness of so many cops to kill citizens rather than undergo any risk themselves. As long as cops see us as "them", they'll probably continue to do poorly under the stress of being made "them" by retirement.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Retired cops almost everywhere carry a retiree badge and a gun if they wish.
You wrote, "namely the willingness of so many cops to kill citizens rather than undergo any risk themselves."

Do you have some statistics to back this up? There was a police officer who was shot last week in Tennessee, his brother is a fellow fireman. It was the second time he was shot in the line of duty. He shot and killed the first man that shot him. He was shot in the chest 3 times 2 weeks ago. If you think police officers don't undergo any risk you are seriously deluded. Nice to see your stats from the FBI confirm my point.

David
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. So I guess the victims of crime should be on the jury and decide the punishment.
That is a horrible idea.


David
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. they tried to use some kind of chemical gas to tranquilize him, didn't work EOM
.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Do you have a link, I've never heard of any such chemical.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. The only tranquilizer gas I know of is based on the anesthetic Fentanyl.
It was used by the Russians at the Beslan school massacre and caused many of the deaths of both the terrorists and the hostages. This was the first and only time it was used in a tactical situation that has been made public.

David
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. Katrina survivors don't get the emotional care they need
he is just one of hundreds of thousands of folks that have been emotionally affected by the storm ...

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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
15. OMG.....I cant describe how awful this
shit is. This is so fucking criminal.
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. "Criminal" is exactly the right word. It's all of a piece with cop behavior since Reagan
at least.
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Haole Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
20. How awful.
:-(
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
23. k&r, so sad.
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buckrogers1965 Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
34. Couldn't they just let him keep the trailer?
Edited on Wed Jun-04-08 06:52 PM by buckrogers1965
Was it really necessary to kill him so they could take the trailer? How much is the trailer worth now, riddled with holes and covered in blood?

What the hell is wrong with deescalating the situation?

There is nothing wrong with the cops losing an argument with a citizen.

Let me make this perfectly clear.

I would rather let people stay in their FEMA trailers and keep them than to take them away by killing them.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-04-08 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. * wants his stuff back.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
37. How horribly ironic that McCain opted to speak from Louisiana ...
... the other day, and fails to address this travesty. He's just as clueless today as he was the day he was eating cake with Bush.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-05-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. How true.
.
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