Army to shoot live pigs for medical drill

Source: MSNBC

>>>"HONOLULU - The Army says it's critical to saving the lives of wounded soldiers. Animal-rights activists call the training cruel and outdated.

Despite opposition by the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, the Army is moving forward with its plan to shoot live pigs and treat their gunshot wounds in a medical trauma exercise Friday at Schofield Barracks for soldiers headed to Iraq.<<<"

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25735344/from/ET/

---

:puke: Just one more thing to be disgusted about this Country.

Someone tipped him off............

Once again I don't understand the distinction between "it's ok to kill them to eat them" and "it's not ok to use them for medic training" (in this case). I'm sure there will be people outraged by this who will happy scarf down a bacon burger later on tonight.

I don't eat meat because I think much of the way animals are treated before they are killed and processed for food is an abomination. At least in this country.

I think if you're outraged at the use here for pigs, and you don't eat meat you're at least internally consistent with your decisions. I just don't understand people who get outraged at it, but also still eat meat. You're either for the killing of animals for your benefit or you're not. I don't understand the weird moral lines people draw all throughout the different uses.

Their intent is to wound the animals in order to practice their first aid and surgical skills.

The animals will suffer great pain.

the article clearly states that they're anesthetised the entire time and at the end they're put to sleep. They feel no pain as part of the process.

Still though, even if they did line them up against a wall and shoot them, why would that outrage people who would later eat a pork roast without blinking? Why is it ok to end an animal's life if you do it "humanely" whatever that means?

But it still creeps me out. In the past, they haven't even bothered to use anaesthesia with animal experiments.

I'm just wondering why they chose to publicize this.

I would no more believe Major Cheng, a spokesman for the infantry that is conducting these shootings, than I'd believe Bush and Cheney. If you think these pigs are going to feel no pain, you should volunteer alongside the animals to help with this important training.

If you have read anything about animal research, you would know that what is supposed to happen and what actually does happen are often two different things. Animals are notoriously mistreated in research settings, at the slaughterhouse, in factory farms, etc. It is not okay for our government to shoot these animals for medical training. As stated by PETA in the article, there are other, non-violent, ways to obtain needed training.

The army periodically comes out with these bizarre programs which involve hurting and maiming animals in the name of research. Years ago, they had a scheme to shoot live beagle dogs for some type of training, and there was such a public outcry, the thing was dropped. The only reason this scheme is talked about now is because one of the army shooters was disturbed enough by what was going to occur that he spoke out against it.

I am against any unnecessary killing, be it human or non-human. I was against the Iraq War as well.

I saw films of live pigs being blow torched to see which ointment worked best on burn victims. Then the ointment was sent off to the pacific war front.


LOL
you can't handle the shock value

damn!

practiced putting in chest tubes on sheep. It helped when she was deployed to
Afghanistan to set up a field hospital and treat the troops. A skill she
ended up using in stressful and less than perfect conditions. There are some
things that need to be done to be proficient before treating humans.

I have no problem with that...

and I am assuming after the pigs are wounded, they are likewise anesthetized to simulate realistic conditions while the bullets are removed.

Cheng said the exercise is conducted in a controlled environment with the pigs anesthetized the entire time. He had "no doubt whatsoever" in the effectiveness of the instruction, which he called the best option available at the base.

He learned some emergency field medicine in a similar manner on a pig before he was shipped off to Afghanistan (he was a civilian working for the DOD at the time). The pig was anesthetized during the entire procedure. I was also pretty horrified initially, but I do see the utility of this training and how it will save lives.

For those who feel animals have no rights and we, the humans, no responsibility, well, I am sorry for you. Animals killed humanely for food, yes, but intentionally wounded with live ammo... Sorry. That crosses the line. There are other ways for such medical experience to be had.

would you suggest for the medical experience?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

afford tons of experience (unfortunately) in gunshot wounds. Prior to the Afghan and Iraqi war, that's how Army Physicians got experience-- since Vietnam.

I know the conflict first hand, as I too learned surgical techniques on anesthetized animals with their wounds or pathology induced. Where it is critically necessary, I can deal. But, other options should be exhausted.

as part of an option but if you need to train up a large amt of people at once prior to being deployed it would not be efficient as you would have them hanging around ER's waiting for a case to maybe or maybe not come in. Also medics and nurses in the military have more leeway preforming procedures that they would not be allowed by law to do in a public hospital.

has a gun shot wound admitted roughly every 13.4 minutes, not counting commercial breaks.

If I get mugged and shot tonight, I'd prefer not to be used as a "training opportunity" for an army medic, thank you.

If the point is to practice on people with gunshot wounds, the army can probably find quite a few of them in Iraq and Afghanistan. What would be the point to sending the medics to civilian hospitals in the hope of finding random gunshot victims to work on?

the point of PRACTICING on a pig is that you can screw up and refine your technique and there's no downside. a person doesn't die. the pig does. and it's gonna die anyway, as part of the experiment

I'm not sure you understood my response to the post suggesting that medics practice on civilian gunshot victims, or you have replied to the wrong post.

i wouldn't want to be the practice patient for a phlebotomist either. but that would just be an ouchy. not death :)

aside from the liability, no hospital would allow someone not employed with them to touch a patient. All they would be able to do is watch the person get treated.
Sending medics and nurses to a war zone without any prior experience and expecting them to preform the procedures is not an option either. Using the pigs is the most efficient way to train them before they are deployed.

rotations in large cities--in the years since Vietnam-- to gain GSW experience. Nothing new here and they are employed...

physicians. I am talking about nurses and medics who do procedures at the front that they normally would not legally be able to do in a US hospital.

Using an ER for "practice" gunshot wound treatment on people seems to miss the point.

If the solution here is to practice on people, then it makes more sense to ship the medics to Iraq and Afghanistan and have them practice on the soldiers, since there are no malpractice or liability issues that would be applicable - such as in a civilian ER.

I don't know if the point here is clear but using people with gunshot wounds in order to practice or train to treat people with gunshot wounds, is not a "practice or training" event - it is the actual treatment of people with gunshot wounds.

just sayin...

Then we won't need to know how to treat gunshot wounds.

So, these ones are treated more humanely than those hung up and whacked while aware. Perhaps you missed that part of the story.

it justifies anything it wants to do.

Yet still, they have no clue THEY are the lowliest creatures ->military policy makers.

ask any surgeon.

I have an idea! Why don't we send some republicans instead? They offer two advantages; they're actually closer to human than pigs (I know, hard to believe nd PETA probably won't even bat an eye), AND **POOF**, fewer republicans.

Win win!

the only thing I would hope that the meat from these animals dont got to waste afterwards.

Those who don't make it will probably poison you if you eat them.

But good luck with that.

you have no business being upset about this. Meat eaters kill pigs in apocalyptic numbers daily for their bacon breakfasts and rib dinners. This is less than a drop in a very bloody bucket.

vegans wear leather or wool products?

I once heard a vegan say they didn't eat honey, because of the bee exploitation.

But I'm not a vegan, though I do not wear leather, for animal rights reasons; or wool, for allergy reasons.
Organic milk for baking and organic cage free eggs. I'd pretty much die if I didn't have at least that much animal product. But my eggs are locally produced.

...but you do not need to kill a sheep for wool, either.

and no to wool and honey for me, though I've heard reasonable arguments for both made before.

You're saying that only vegans should voice an opinion in how animals are treated. Wrong is wrong, whether it occurs in the slaughterhouse, on the factory farm, in the medical research lab, or in an army "training" program. This program is exploiting animals and I'm against it. I have as much right to my views as you do, whether you are or aren't a vegan and whether I am or am not a vegan. Stop trying to portray yourself as morally superior to other people.

I'm just saying that if it's totally OK for you to kill a pig for tasty sandwiches then it's equally acceptable to do it for purposes of medical training, or even more acceptable, as most folks would submit that medical training is more important than greasy breakfast food.

Meat eaters simply have no logical leg to stand on when they attempt to argue the morality of this issue; if doing the deed on an industrial scale for purposes of snack food isn't worthy of moral outrage then this tiny act certainly isn't.

And I believe it is inhumane to shoot pigs for this medical training, especially since there are alternative methods available. Whether or not I eat greasy breakfast food (which I don't) is beside the point. I have a right to my opinion, as does the soldier who blew the whistle on this stupid plan. I don't consided killing pigs for the reason given by Mr Cheng a "tiny act", I consider it cruel and unnecessary.

By the way, you shouldn't take as gospel everything the authorities tell you; they have been known to obfuscate the truth.

if doing the deed on an industrial scale for purposes of snack food

So you believe that if we all killed our own meat, that would be better.

but on the whole I'm not seeing your point. If somebody can get wound up about a handful of piggies dying for medical research but not about pigs dying in their millions for Chili's Baby Back Baby Back Baby Back Ribs then they are misprioritizing.

In my opinion, of course.

Maybe I don't have any business allowing myself to get upset over this. But I am.

(Actually, I don't think a person has any business attempting to dictate what another person may or may not get up set over or feel on an emotional level-- unless (if and only if) there is only one absolute standard of morality.)

to get practice? Then go to Ben Taub hospital in Houston any Friday or Saturday night to get plenty more experience with gunshot wounds.

Also, if it really is absolutely necessary to practice on non-humans, I volunteer all chickenhawks to be used instead of smart sweet pigs.

No sarcasm intended.

(at least in the USA) no longer has a conscience or a soul.

I don't like it a bit, from what I viewed today having a mutual loving relationship with animals (pets)
this image deserves much refection imo.
http://incredimazing.com/page/Sick_Disgusting_the_Inhumane_Treatment_of_Dogs_in_China

are those animals alive, or dead?

Was that when China "cleaned" the streets of Beijing for the Olympics of stray dogs? I heard about that and thought it was fucked up.

Or is that just a truck full of "meat" for human consumption? If so that doesnt bother me nearly so much.

come to mind.

:puke:

... they're all Dem pigs.

was done 10 years ago for guys I know who went to Bosnia. It was goats then if the memory of the discussion holds.

Reasonable action.

:D

5.56 nato and 7.62x39 cause horrible injuries. If I was shot I would prefer the persons trying to save me have seen blood before.

This is an animal necropsy.



I will NOT link into this site. This is human autopsy. However the sheer destruction of ballistic injuries (from ww2 in BW) should make it clear that every person treating these soldiers get the training needed.

http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/woundblstcs/default.htm

If that means shooting the ingredients of a bacon egg and cheese McMuffin so be it.

maybe some would rather an eye popping,horrified medic puke in their wounds then run away screaming like a banshee instead of applying
super glue to the hemorrhage while saying "Seen worse then this scratch".


just sayin, observations have been made and conditions have improved since the US civil war days of "saw bones" triage

To really know whether the treatment is useful, wouldn't the subject need to fully recover and go back to something resembling a normal life?

This is just animal cruelty.

fix broken plumbing before the animal dies. Highly effective. If the anesthetized animal does not die fro blood loss they did goo, if it bleeds to death and hears stops, do over.

Punch in wadding to dress the wound and get the person used to the sight and smell before it is your neighbors kid.

... the lives of American Soldiers is to not send them to fight immoral wars of aggression.

Just a thought.

I'd be lying if I said I was the least bit outraged by this. I agree that it's immoral, but to me, it doesn't make much difference whether they're slaughtered for bacon and pork or used for target practice. Either way, the pigs are going to experience trauma and eventually die.

Some think it's humane if we simply use everything we kill. I'm not sure I agree with that point of view. If someone killed me and ate me (internal organs and all, yum, cannibalism), and used my bones for a science project, I'd still be dead, and I don't think I'd be very happy about it.

I'd probably be grateful if they drugged me first to avoid the pain though.

1. Invade a country that did not attack the US and posed no threat to the US.
2. Watch in horror as hundreds of thousands die and suffer horrible injuries.
3. Shoot pigs to train soldiers to deal with the resulting massive flesh wounds.

Humans are definitely lower on the scale of evolution than the pigs.

They could use other methods such as tissue culture etc. I don't know how they find people who can do these things. :-( :cry: :grr:

Personnel working under contract for NASA used cadavers in tests to develop landing systems, spacesuits and seats in the new Orion moonship, space agency officials said Friday.

Three human bodies were used in the tests at Ohio State University Medical Center last summer and fall.

The tests provided the space agency's safety experts and engineers assessments of the forces that astronauts are expected to experience when the new spacecraft descends to Earth by parachute.

Cadavers, examined before and after the testing, offer insights into the forces on internal organs and the spinal cord that cannot be accurately obtained using automotive crash-test dummies and computer models.


snip

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/nation/5895965.html

At least no animals were harmed in advancing the next step for the manned space program .


http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/constellation/orion/index.html

that alternatives are being used instead of harming animals in any way. I just wish more people were motivated to search them out.

don't you think things will change?

don't get it - how can they mimic a the massive trauma of a bullet wound?

taking the place of trauma experts. They should have properly trained medical personnel there. Soldiers medically treating other soldiers is unacceptable.

While it's true that tissue cultures are usually small and used in cosmetic testing and that type of thing who is saying that bigger samples can't be had?

It says in the article that high tech human simulators are used in this type of training. If medical schools don't use animals while training doctors then I doubt that anyone has to.

They save lives second after the injury occurs by stabilizing long enough to make it back to the doctors. You cannot have Doctors and nurses in the middle of the battle.

They are not medics, the article says that. Let them get medics who are already trained.

Let them use the simulators, not the animals.

And better yet, end the war and we won't be talking about this. We don't need to be over there and have anyone dying. All of this isn't even necessary. We went to Iraq based on a lie so let's leave Iraq based on truth.

They are with the units. They are there when the shit hits the fan. Without them more boys would not be coming home.

I agree with you, the war needs to end. I will continue to protest the war.

But until it does there are young men and women that will come home to their families because another soldier had this training. It may not mean much to you, and a pigs life may be worth as much to you, but for those of us with loved ones in the military, we know how important real training is. Computer sims are not the same.

are entitled to and deserving of real medical personnel.

When you say it may not mean much to me, you have no idea what you are talking about.

You must feel that all of the doctors are being trained improperly because the med schools are all using the simulators and have been for quite a while.

that accompany the infantry on their mission. They have extensive training in first aid and emergency trauma response - just like civilian EMTs but with a little more advanced training. They are key to keeping the wounded alive until a doctor can operate.

And you're upset about this????