Venezuela's top court upholds candidate blacklist

Source: AP

Venezuela's Supreme Court on Tuesday ruled that a list barring hundreds of candidates suspected of corruption from running in elections is constitutional, despite complaints that it singles out opponents of President Hugo Chavez.

The list — released by the country's top anti-corruption official in February — prevents 272 mostly opposition-aligned politicians from running in November's state and municipal elections.

Comptroller General Clodosbaldo Russian, a close Chavez ally, argued Venezuelan law gives him the right to impose restrictions on potential candidates suspected of corruption.

But opposition leaders said the ban violated Venezuela's constitution, which upholds the political rights of all citizens unless they have been charged with a crime and sentenced by a court. None of those on the list have been sentenced.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080806/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_blacklisted_candidates_2

That's strange.

But it troubles me a little that they are "suspected of corruption", not convicted of corruption.

If and when they are convicted, I say ban them for life from ever holding public office again.

particularly wanting to throw them in a jail. If there is no legal process for them to challenge this prohibition, which clearly is not the case, and it is permanent, then I might be willing to object. But there is no right to run just because you want to anywhere.

Just like the right to vote. The only reason why you wouldn't be allowed to run for office, is if you are convicted of a crime.

It certainly makes sense to me, I think that's how democracies should work. :shrug:

I need to come up with something else so you can argue with me about it?

I don't argue just for the sake of arguing, I'm genuinely curious.

Look, I'm not anti-Chávez, I support him because he has done great things for his people, and he has been elected, reelected and supported by the Venezuelan people time and again. But just because my opinion is mainly positive doesn't mean I don't find some things troubling or that I agree with everything that his government does or everything he says.

Considering voting rights is a big issue in the US, I would have thought that most people here would take a different stand. I personally think that "the right to be elected" is just the other side of the coin (and equally as important) as the right to vote, and the restrictions to this should be VERY, VERY limited, so it kind of takes me by surprise that it is so easy to justify for some people.

Yes, you agreed with my point... but you said at first "there's no right to run just because you want to anywhere", and it certainly seems to me like you wouldn't have a problem with that. I certainly do have a problem with that, and as I said, beside a very small and strict set of reasons (eg. citizenship, term limits, etc), yes, you should absolutely have the right to run just because you want to.

You can disagree, I just wanted to know your reasons. :shrug:

And in most places: age, residency, citizenship, former felons, term limits. Used to be you had to be a propertied white male. Now we do better thank goodness. But I don't see that the principle is murky, it's well established.

In this particular case, it seems to me the reason they are being excluded is clear, the law is clear, the court has supported it. You are entitled to oppose it based on personal belief or friendship or whatever, but I don't see that there is some unique principle that is being violated in Venezuela that is being followed elsewhere.

Like DUIs?

Most of them regarding corruption in fact, like the Venezuelan case, but here you actually have to be convicted and not just a suspect. And well, DUI's don't even mean jail time, that will probably change soon, but for now you just lose your driver's license for a year and pay.

And it is not a ban for life either, but for a limited period of time.

Just look at George W. bUsh & Cheney the Dick!

:rofl:

when did that happen?

where anyone was a convicted criminal. My standards are a bit higher. Yours may vary.

media says about Chavez without a huge chunk of salt. My standards are very high - I refuse to accept what our media says without considering their agenda.

Your standards, along with the standards of most in our country, obviously do vary.

While the joke writes itself, I still find it sad that someone can applaud the punishment of someone merely accused of doing something.

by the Comptroller General was passed almost unanimously when the opposition occupied almost half the National Assembly.

Peace Patriot has taken the time to patiently point it out in post #40:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3425543&mesg_id=3426921

Before you attempt to set up a howl about the source, also take the time to recognize the source took that information from an article published elsewhere. They are using it, as they do article published in many different sources, just as your own corporate media publish articles from elsewhere.

It's not going to kill you if you slow down and start thinking before you post. People might start taking your remarks more seriously.

Saint Hugo is a "criminal".

Only those accused of corruption. But don't let facts get in the way of your spouting.

Who are you going to appeal this to? Is it really that difficult to find other candidates? Here in the USA, the right to vote and the right to run for office are two different things, there are restrictions. If you are a felon, even if you have done your time, they still won't let you VOTE.

In Costa Rica, polling stations are installed in jails so that even prisoners can vote.

let's see - an appointee and close personal ally of Chavez gets to keep a person of running for office if he suspects that person of corruption? And, strangely enough, most of those kept off the ticket are opponents of Chavez.

That's "democracy" Venezuelan style, I guess.

he hates bush. so it's clear sailing...

Unlike the US Constitution, there can be recall referenda for members of Venezuelan Parliament. You don't have to wait until they serve out their full term before removing them through a regular election.

Tue Aug 5, 2008 10:57pm EDT

CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuela's top court ruled on Tuesday that dozens of politicians, among them leading opponents of President Hugo Chavez, will not be allowed to run in regional elections later this year.

The measure also blocks some government allies but is guaranteed to anger figures such as Leopoldo Lopez, the mayor of a wealthy Caracas neighborhood who had planned to stand for city mayor in November elections ...

The disqualification of candidates is based on an anti-corruption law the government says was supported by opposition parties ...

The politicians are blocked under a law that allows sanctions against public officials accused of corruption even before their cases come to trial ...

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSN0537764620080806
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSN0537764620080806?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

We should welcome clarification of actual details: What precisely does the law say: for example, does it simply ban anyone indicted and facing trial from running for office opr does it involve a vaguer criterion for 'suspicion'? How many people are actually affected: for example, are there hundreds of potential politicians on the list, but only a few dozen actually running in the next election cycle? Who (actually running) has been affected: for example, can we get a list of names and party affiliations? And did the opposition support this law before complaining of it?

ANYTHING they say about Chavez, Venezuela or the South American left.

Always look for the "ap" hidden in the url. That means "fascist/corporate" agenda. The best procedure is to disbelieve the entire story, upfront, and, with your skepticism hat firmly on your head, go to other sources for what the Associated Pukes are not telling you.

Try:
www.venezuelanalysis.com (They publish the other side of most Chavez stories--and then you can decide for yourself what you think about it.)
www.BoRev.net (They often cover Chavez stories; they are informative and hilarious; and they often vet the corporate 'news' monopoly versions of things--analyze the 'news' presentation.)

Do not consider AP to be 'news.' Look at it as opinion. AP says such and such happened in Venezuela. Did it? That's the first thing you must ask. Second, what are they NOT telling you? Third: spot the disinformation. AP has an agenda straight from the Bush State Department, which I sometimes think is actually writing AP stories about Chavez. So one way to get the picture here is to imagine that George Bush, Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld was speaking the story to you. Would you believe him? That is how completely unreliable AP has become on this subject.

I have been following the Chavez news for many years now. And I can tell you that virtually EVERY 'news' story from AP is negative, is aimed at portraying Chavez as a "tyrant," and has been proven wrong, to my satisfaction, after tirelessly hunting down the facts.

And I am greatly, greatly worried that this non-stop stream of disinformation and propaganda is prep for an oil war in South America, which I think is going to happen sooner rather than later, and will likely take the form of U.S. military support (from the newly reconstituted 4th Fleet in the Caribbean) for fascist secessionists in the oil rich Venezuela province of Zulia (on the Caribben, adjacent to Colombia). There are similar Bushite schemes for fomenting civil war, and breaking off the resource-rich provinces into fascist mini-states in control of the oil, in Bolivia (in progress) and in Ecuador (reported fascist meetings).

See:

"The Smart Way to Beat Tyrants Like Chávez," by Donald Rumsfeld, 12/1/07
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/30/AR2007113001800.html

Rumsfeld urges "swift action" by the U.S. in support of "friends and allies" in South America. The U.S. doesn't have any "friends and allies" in South America except for the fascist thugs running Colombia and the corrupt "free traders" in Peru--and fascist cells within democratic countries planning coups. So this is what I think he means--"swift action" in support of fascist secessionists when they make their move. The propaganda about Chavez being a "tyrant" (he is not) is designed to put us to sleep when this Bushite crap hits the fan. Most people will think, 'oh, it's just that Chavez--isn't he a dictator or something?'

Don't be asleep. Be alert. Know how much they are lying to us. And, although our government is deaf to the majority of the American people, and our own democracy is in tatters, be well informed, and CARE what happens.

story, by now, unfortunately, having already been done before, very conspicuously, at a ranch owned by opposition leader, proponent of "guarimba," (violent protest) Roberto Alonso!

Colombian Paramilitaries Hiding in Venezuela

July 20 ,2008


Caracas, Jul 20 (Prensa Latina) The Venezuelan Army has detected a training camp for the Colombian paramilitaries in the state of Zulia, where those individuals are being held responsible for the rise of kidnapping for ramson, Operational Strategic Command chief Jesus Gregorio Gonzalez, said Sunday.

“We recently discovered a training camp for the United Self-defense Forces of Colombia in Venezuelan territory. The camp was two minutes away from the border line," the top ranking officer told the Panorama daily.

Interviewed about insecurity in that western state of Zulia, ruled by opposition governor Manuel Rosales, Gonzalez said many demobilized Colombian paramilitaries are crossing the border to commit common crimes.

Venezuelan ombudswoman Gabriela Ramirez told Panorama that kidnapping for ramson and the use of hired assassins are recurrent in Zulia. She called for a strategy favoring the security initiative fostered by the Interior and Justice Ministries.

http://www.victoria.co.cu/Html/mundo/English/mundo_english(337)20-07-2008.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Keep this info. in mind for a while, and see if ANYTHING trickles through in our own corporate media. It'll take some real searching, without a doubt.

Might as well watch FoxNews for the "other side" of Bush.

Ya know to decide for yourself.

:eyes:

"The Facts about the List of 'Banned Candidates' in Venezuela"
July 24th 2008, by Francisco Dominguez - Dissident Voice

"Sections of the Venezuelan opposition are opposing a decision by Venezuela’s Comptroller General, Clodosbaldo Russián, who has submitted a list of 386 individuals to be banned from standing for public office for (being guilty of) corruption and/or misuse of public funds. The opposition, finding an echo in sections of the corporate media, has argued that the “list of banned candidates is politically motivated and illegal.”1 They add that the measure is unconstitutional. This interpretation, as we prove below, is simply wrong. The facts do not bear out the charge that this is a politically motivated decision by Venezuelan Comptroller General, nor that it is illegal and/or unconstitutional. In fact, the Comptroller General is merely implementing existing legislation — a great deal of which precedes the Chavez government — aimed at rooting out corruption from the Venezuelan state, and especially the impunity that previously characterised it, one of the heaviest legacies of the oligarchy-led IV Republic. (emphasis added)

(MORE)

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3669

--------

Sound familiar? I hope we some day have a purge of corrupt Bushites from our system. God, the stench of these people! The rightwing is the same everywhere!

of investigation by the Comptroller General, based on a law nearly unanimously passed back when the rightwing had almost half the seats in the National Assembly. The law calls for administrative penalties after a thorough investigation. The person who wants to run for office does not have to be convicted in a criminal court. The Comptroller General is fully empowered to make this determination and to ban them from running for office.

-----

"5. The Comptroller General’s Office instigated the investigations against the ‘inhabilitados’ on the list by virtue of Art 105 of the Organic Law of the Comptroller General Office, which predates the 1999 Bolivarian Constitution up to 15 years (it was introduced in 1984 under the presidency of Jaime Lusinchi and was reviewed and confirmed under the administration of President Rafael Caldera in 1995). Therefore, the legal instrument to apply sanctions against individual whose probity as holders of public office was under question was already in existence, but was simply not being applied. The current form of Art 105 was adopted in 2002 by Venezuela’s National Assembly in an almost unanimous vote, with those in favour including the opposition parties that had, at that time, a substantial presence in the Assembly (COPEI, MAS, Socialdemocrats, MVR, Convergencia, AD, COPEI, Alianza Bravo Pueblo, Podemos and Primero Justicia — at the time the chavista alliance had 85 MPs and the opposition had 80 seats in parliament.4 The Organic Law in relation to the Comptroller General’s Office gives competence and authority to the Comptroller General to instigate investigations on holders of public office at all levels about any deviation from the performance of their duties according to existing rules, regulations and laws (Arts 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13), and Arts 91, 92 (see full text of the Organic Law of the Comptroller General Office). Additionally, the Office of the Comptroller General’s attributions is also stipulated in the 1999 Constitution in Arts 25, 274, 287, 288 and 289.5 Furthermore, Art 105 gives the Comptroller General Office the authority to bar individuals from holding office, once the investigation on their probity as holders of public office, regardless of political affiliation." (MORE) (emphasis added)

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3669

---

This is the part of the story that the Associated Pukes deliberately leave out. Venezuela is a big country. It has several branches of government and investigative agencies--like our GAO, for instance, or Special Counsels. The rightwing, when they were in power, in their infinite legal wisdom, saw fit to invest the Comptroller General with the power to keep Venezuela's public offices free of corruption. (Would that we had anybody to do that here!!) He or she cannot put anyone in jail, but can keep their fingers out of the public till if investigation warrants that administrative penalty. Our system works differently. We ban the poor from voting, if they have been in prison, even if they've paid their debt to society. In Venezuela, they ban the have's from running for office if the "have" that they have was corruptly obtained. Frankly, we would be a better country is we reversed our policy--let ex-prisoners vote, if they have served their time, and ban the whole gang of mass murderers, torturers, master thieves, liars and lawless traitors, who have been running things--Dick Cheney, George Bush, Condi Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, Alberto Gonzales, and minons--and, indeed, virtually every Republican who held office in the last eight years-- from ever holding public office again, elected or not.

How do you get rid of entrenched corruption? That is the problem that Venezuela addressed with their Comptroller General law. We should consider such a law ourselves. Because what happens with entrenched corruption is that the corrupt get control of the courts, and all the levers of government, and cannot be prosecuted. This problem has been endemic with rightwingers throughout Latin America. It is one of the reasons that Venezuela, Ecuador and Bolivia (and Paraguay will possibly do the same) have been re-writing their Constitutions--to dislodge the kind of people who can be bought, who use bribes and cronyism and elite advantages to abuse the public trust. We have the worst case of it that I have ever seen--corruption on an almost unimaginable scale--and, as with other issues, the South Americans are showing us the way to clean it up, or one way to clean it up. Our problem is indeed much worse.

I think our Constitutional document is pretty good. However, since Bushites, collusive Democrats and global corporate predators and war profiteers have found the ways to subvert almost every one of its provisions, we need something more. We need a cleansing--and a recommitment to our fundamental governing principles. How do we do that?

The rightwingers who visit DU, and who are forever echoing Bush and Rumsfeld and their lapdog press that Chavez is a "tyrant", simply don't look at the facts and the law, and continue to jump to conclusions before they know all the facts--which AP will never provide. You have to make an effort to find out. We are being kept in the dark, and dis-informed, by the corporate 'news' monopolies...and then we get this echo chamber here at DU, with some people accepting these liars and malefactors of corporate 'journalism" and even cheering them on.

They treat AP reports as truth--AP, one of the most corrupt and corrupting 'news' sources on the planet.

more powerful! Why it's hardly worth MENTIONING! Oh, my gosh.

I'm saving your post, again. So few people take the time to look at the elements of these stories among the right-wing reactionaries.

It stands to reason you can't study and learn when you've got a full head of emotional steam going! Emotionalism, and preconceptions based on disinformation will block the facts every time!

Thank you for bringing up the facts which remain CONSTANT, regardless of the shrill propagandizing. The facts will last, the rest will go.

What a simple way to eliminate your enemies.

n/t

In either case, it still troubles me that you can be in the list without a conviction.

Toss in a couple of token folks from his own party for looks, and he's set.

Hypocrisy is rampant among the Chavez worshipers.

Why is it do you imagine they've been out of power, and will remain out of power, anyway?

The vast majority of Venezuelans are crooked? Throwing elections right in front of the international election observers?

Why didn't they allow the oligarchy to accomplish its violent coup and kidnapping of the Venezuelan President? Why did they storm into the streets once someone got the news to them through the complete NEWS BLACKOUT by all the opposition media, that their president had been forcibly taken from office and overthrown by the oligarchy?

If you could calm down long enough to do some thinking, then some studying, you'd be able to understand the subject, finally.

First, I don't believe that any politician is above corruption, thus I don't fall into the trap of viewing one leader with rose colored glasses nor get into a cult like automatic defense/spin of any individual. Douglas Adams had in right when he wrote "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."

Second, if you believe that after a long investigation that mostly Chavez's most popular opponents just happened to be on the list of corruption, while the opposition also has a small minority in the government, then you may be interested in buying shares in the Brooklyn Bridge.

Third, I'm not emotional about anything Chavez does. Only the spin doctor defenders of his actions are. If Bush did the exact same actions here, you'd be on the street leading the revolution. Only your hypocrisy keeps you from seeing that.

Ask yourself one question. If Bush and his AG did the same thing and Obama was on the list, would you defend him with the same vigor? If not, you need to step back from your Chavez worship. I'd also suggest a long reading of the history of dictatorships and how they begin.

large opposition presence in the National Assembly, back before they staged a violent coup against Hugo Chavez? That's not HIS law, it's the law passed almost unanimously by the National Assembly, a fact which has been brought out to us patiently by Peace Patriot, if you only had taken the time to read it.

It's also in an article I posted from another source.

Opposition was involved in passing that law before they also violently overthrew Hugo Chavez for a day, kidnapped him, pushed in the Carmona Decree which dissolved the National Assembly, Supreme Court, removed the head of the National Bank, removed all the Chavez-appointed officials from their positions, and sent the police to arrest all the administration cabinet officials to throw them in prison. They caught one, and the others went into hiding.

The opposition, which controlled the private media had their cooperation in suppression ALL knowledge of what they had done, blocked all the news until it was accomplished, then tried to block information on it altogether until the public finally found out, poured into the streets, surged to the Presidential Palace, and started demanding the return of the President they had elected.

Your wishes will NOT get him outta there without a whole lot more dirty underhanded evil machination conducted through financing endless schemes by opposition groups, third party attacks like the 130 man paramilitary presence caught in time to prevent an attempt to overthrow Miraflores, and kill Chavez. This was admitted, and was apologized for by Álvaro Uribe in person, in a six-hour session, which is ON RECORD.

The people of Venezuela WANT Hugo Chavez as their president, and it's simply none of your business. It's THEIR CHOICE, not the choice of bulging-eyed, red-faced right-wing clowns in another country.

It's also not about WANTING Chavez in or out. I could care less.

I will point out when someone does something wrong or underhanded. No matter who it is. Even if I like the person, that doesn't mean overlooking their faults.

Chavez is using a law for political purposes. I'm just saying that's wrong. You are so caught up in defending the guy that you can't even see the obvious.

That's sad.

that would be fair right?

Guess what?? It's a duck'''

Looks like a dictatorship, acts like a dictatorship, my oh my it is a dictatorship, who would of thunk it.

And of course the left dismisses it just like the did the crimes of the soviets.

Man some things never change.

I want you to list the reasons Venezuela is a dictatorship (I wonder if you spend a fraction of the time focusing on countries FAR worse than Venezuela in anything you can name, but happen to be US allies and are never mentioned, like Colombia for instance. How many times have you bothered to say or do anything about your tax dollars going to a narco terror state in Colombia who is connected with the majority of violence in the country?). Please, give me five examples of what you're talking about.

the third largest recipient of foreign aid in the world, with death squad connections going all the way to the current President, involved in wiping out entire villages after torturing them, dismembering them with chainsaws WHILE LIVING, as per testimony by survivors and by participants alike, a government which has terrorized and intimidated the popular media to the point many of them have been assassinated, many have fled to other countries, and the ones remaining have made admission to other sources that they "self-censor" for the purpose of survival.

They HAVE NO OPPOSITION PRESS. They ain't got one. They don't have to worry about slander, as that's the LAST thing that's going to happen to a goverment official.

Uribe's right-wing government gobbles up every bit of loose change it can manage from the U.S. taxpayers, and our own right-wingers are proud as punch of their little right-wing ally in Colombia, who accomodates American-based multinationals which exploit Colombian poor for their labor, and use Colombian death squads to keep them in line by murdering so many of them that Colombia has the highest murder rate of labor workers in the world.

Staggeringly filthy business, and our right-wingers don't find it in them to admit the sheer hideousness of what is going on there, while flailing away at Venezuela's President.

excuse me, what is that?

Again, do you apply the same standards to every country, or just the ones the heads of state here tell you to? There are many countries in the world far, far worse than Venezuela across the board. Most of them aren’t a fraction as democratic as Venezuela, most of them are far more violent, many of them have the support of the West. The US supports, and has supported, some of the worse killers in the last few decades and is behind the violence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Venezuela, Colombia, Mexico, Haiti, amongst others, but yeah, let’s apply completely different and hypocritical standards to Venezuela. Who this garbage works on I don't know.

Here’s a list of some of the governments we…helped in the 20th century (which only starts in the middle of the century). The person who created this list is William Blum, formerly of the US State Department:

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/American_holocaust.htm

Doesn't matter if one leader is doing it, or 100 leaders are doing it.

Pointing out others, doesn't change anything.

As for me, if you want to start 100 threads about each example, I'll condemn anyone doing the same thing Chavez is doing.

No hypocrisy from me. What about you? If you are willing to speak up about others, but turn a blind eye to Chavez, then we all can see who the hypocrite is here.

The decrees declared by Venezuelan leader Hugo (Bushco)* Chavez

_ Establish civilian militias critics fear will evolve into Cuban-style community groups used to monitor and prevent «counterrevolutionary» activities.
_ Give * Chavez the power to expropriate goods from private business owners without approval from the National Assembly.
_ Increase state control over food production and commerce, punishing business owners who
fail to comply with price controls and other regulations with fines, indefinite closure or up to 10 years in prison.

_ Give * Chavez the ability to designate regional political authorities who could undermine the power of elected mayors and governors.

_ Put * Chavez in charge of a social investment fund for «excess resources» from state-run enterprises _ including recently nationalized telecommunications, electricity, steel and cement companies.
_ Support efforts by the * Chavez government to create a socialist-style economy at the community level, providing for bartering of goods and the communal operation of «social property» businesses.
_ Change the name of Venezuela's military, now decreed to be «Bolivarian,» a reference to independence hero Simon Bolivar, whom * Chavez considers to be the inspiration of his socialist movement.






http://www.pr-inside.com/latest-decrees-by-venezuelan-president-hugo-r742090.htm

You would applaude bushco for decreeing by "rules" the same things ?

bushco apologists