Russian Ground Forces Assault Vital Georgian City

Source: New York Times

TBILISI, Georgia — Russian tanks and troops moved through the separatist enclave of South Ossetia and advanced on the city of Gori in central Georgia on Sunday night, for the first time directly assaulting a Georgian city with ground forces after three days of heavy fighting, Georgian officials said.

Georgian tanks were dug into positions outside Gori and planning to defend the city, said Shota Utiashvili, an official in Georgia’s interior ministry. He said the city of Gori was coming under artillery and tank fire. There was no immediate comment from Russia.

A senior Western official said earlier Sunday that Russian forces were seen moving over the mountains from South Ossetia into Georgian territory near a village called Racha.

A column of Russian forces was also seeking Sunday night to enter Georgian territory from Abkhazia, another separatist enclave to the west, and Abkhaz fighters were massed at the boundary line, an Abkhaz official said in an interview. . . .



Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/11/world/europe/11georgia.html?hp

---

It now looks like a full-scale invasion.

While Bush is incompetent, Putin is making a strategic play to be the next Stalin. He is a very cunning and ruthless leader. He will also never be out of power for as long as he can take in breath.

But I think Bush's failings go far beyond just incompetent. And if he could hold onto power, he probably would.

Saakashvili is a greedy man bent on the spoils of privatization.

South Ossetia is a sovereign country being invaded by Georgia first and Russia second. Nothing good will come of any of this for South Ossetia.

That place is nothing more than a mob-ran Russian puppet state.

That supposedly progressive people can be so right wing and soo misinformed. The history of South Ossetia is like much of the Balkans complicated. So do some googling before you erupt with more bullshit. But too your point. Ossetia, both south and north, are not mob run. In fact they are quite well run even though S. Ossetia has been under an embargo by Georgia sense the 1990s war of independence. Georgia OTH is rife with corruption. It's military is famous for it's corruption and ineptness. One last note on breakaway states. Ever here of Kosovo? How Bush has supported their independence from Serbia? Goose and Gander? Bob

Albanian rather than Russian mob and Western rather than Russian puppet, but fundamentally the same deal.

Russian news agencies report sunken Georgian ship 3 minutes ago



TBILISI, Georgia - Russian news agencies say the Defense Ministry is claiming to have sunk a Georgian missile boat that was trying to attack Russian navy ships in the Black Sea.


Russia's Defense Ministry refused to comment on the Sunday reports to The Associated Press and Georgian officials could not immediately be reached.

If confirmed, the incident could mark a serious escalation of the fighting between Russia and Georgia over the separatist Georgian province of South Ossetia.

more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/georgia_south_ossetia;_ylt=Al6Wxue5Zd_82ixpgmTGvBqs0NUE

This is getting completely out of hand.

I feel like I'm back in 1962 watching Saturday morning cartoons, when CBS interrupted to show Marvin Kalb talking about how we were going to be blown to bits by the Russians based on Cuba.

Hasn't there been a rumor that Russia was going to base bombers in Cuba?

Deja vu all over again.

...will be step one.

Ukraine, Baltic republics, are next on the menu. Perhaps Poland will also be on the list.

Keeping a close eye on this situation. Don't like how it's shaping up; you could be right about Russia wanting to bring its former Soviet republics back under control.

.. the "near-abroad" back.

And they have never been comfortable with an independent Poland. Only this time the Germans won't actively help out, but they will passively acquiesce to keep the gas and oil flowing.

I know you realize the implications of what you are saying. I'm not ready to go there.

...the implications as well.

http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5572&Itemid=65

Joint statement on Georgia-Russia War by Presidents of Poland, Estonia, Latvia & Lithuania
August 9, 2008

We, the leaders of the former captive nations from Eastern Europe and current members of the European Union and NATO– Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland – are extremely concerned about the actions of the Russian Federation against Georgia.

We strongly condemn the actions by the Russian military forces against the sovereign and independent country of Georgia............

Twelve years ago, I spent a week of vacation in Lithuania as part of a longer trip. At that time, Russia was involved in the Chechen debacle. A Lithuanian asked me why the U.S. wasn't getting involved on the side of the Chechens, and if we wouldn't help them, how could Lithuania depend on the U.S. to help Lithuania if the Russians tried to reform the Soviet Union.

I told him that our ties to European countries was strong, and that one reason that we weren't in Chechnya was because in a place that we couldn't get to with a large army. I pointed out that the Baltic ports would offer easy access for a defensive force. I don't think that Lithuania was a member of NATO at that time, but I would be happy to stand corrected.

Right now, if that fellow remembers our conversation, he must consider me to have been a compete fool.

The situation is deteriorating faster than I had anticipated, and it may be too late to do much of anything.

On a side note, and as I posted in another thread, one of my roommates is Turkish, but has a mother who is ethnically Abkhasian. According to roommate, young male Abkhasians residing in Turkey are going to Abkhasia to fight for their independence from Georgia. They may be traveling by ship. Any reports of Turkish merchantmen heading toward Georgia may contain ethnic Abkhasians.

On another note, a friend of roommate's, also Turkish ethnically but a naturalized U.S. citizen, told me that Turks view Georgians as cousins and friends despite the religious difference. I wonder if other Turks feel the same way, and if ethnic Turks would voluntarily go to Georgia to help repel the Russians, and the Abkhazians and S. Ossetians, for that matter.

If Putin wants to fuck with NATO he better get ready for Moscow to get turned into radioactive glass. This is why Russia is having a hissy-fit with Georgia. The Russians arrogantly demand that their neighbors be good vassals of "Mother Russia," and in their minds Georgia wanting to join NATO is seen as a Western attack on Russia's "right" to f*ck with it's neighbors. Add the oil pipeline running through Georgia and you have the recipe for a geopolitical clusterfuck of disastrous proportions.

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

The Russians wouldn't bite off more than they can chew here. I think they do intend to prove a point to the west here, though i.e. that their military is a force to be reckoned with.

Personally, I think they will pull back from Georgia proper once they have destroyed a portion of Georgia's military forces.

Very bad indeed. Take Gori and Georgia is cut in half. The next 48 hrs will tell. Will there be reports of Russian tanks rolling down Rustaveli Avenue in downtown Tbilisi?

Perhaps a threat of sanctions from the EU/US might give the Russians pause, but if there is no push back why should the Russians stop?

Any attempt at sanctions by Europe, and Russia would cut their natural gas supplies in an instant. Without Russian gas, most of Europe freezes this winter.

Russia can do far more economic damage to the EU than the EU could ever do to Russia. They hold the trump card.

Saakashvili isn't trying to make enough noise all by himself now.

1.) I agree that the Russians will most likely want to "attrit" the Georgian forces thoroughly before agreeing to a cease fire. Who knows when the chance will come again? Why not make an example of Georgia, since Saakashvili was kind enough to hand them an excuse, and they now seem to have the situation well in hand.

2.) I would wager that a good deal of study will be applied to this after it is over; if I am not mistaken it's the first time we have seen Russian arms in action since Afghanistan, 20 years back.

I also recall a thread a few days ago, where a highly placed Israeli official was mocking the Russian air defense systems that Iran was reputed to be buying. I recall reading that Israel has supplied some weaponry to Georgia, as a sort of counter-threat regarding Russian weapons supplied to Iran. So, I suspect that this war is meant to demonstrate some real world weapons tests, to the appropriate audiences, although I don't know how the tests will work out in practice.

I also noticed the media seem to be coming on point somewhat, with a generally anti-Russian slant, based on limited CNN viewing. But they cut away to Olympics news quickly enough, so I think there is still uncertainty and discussion among the powers that be.

All this being said, I would hate to see a wider war. This has the makings of WWI with nuclear weapons.

I was speculating about how much of this was "theatrical micro-militarism", too, and an attempted demonstration of capability by one or more of the parties. I am still rather hopeful that this dispute will be kept confined.

WRT speculations about relative quality of Russian vs "western" hardware, I ran into this:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3580522,00.html

Which would suggest that one might try to draw some conclusions from the performance of the Georgians vs the Russians.

Yep, the whole world is watching. A lot of arms sales could hang in the balance.

Come buy our latest hardware, freshly tested against human flesh.

Arms merchants profit by blood and flesh.

If you want to try to understand what is going on, you have to pay attention to how they think.

I am old and sad enough to know how the world works.

It still makes me feel sick (thank god).

:thumbsup:

It's all focused on this.

And that said, I have the same sense of eerie deja vu you do - i.e. WW I with nuclear weapons AND oil lines in the mix.

RUssians didn't manage to oust georgian troops from South Ossetia, Tskhinvali isn't secured yet.

complete air superiority. And, they have time to shoot the shit and have a smoke. What I'm not seeing is heavy artillery or tanks, these are nothing but troop carriers and supply vehicles.

and that convoy would be a smoking pile...

...I'd want to level the museum in Gori dedicated to that famous son Iosef Dzhugashvili.

This guy looks worse and worse all the time.

Of course, we have an idiot puppet run by a bunch of crazed neocons, but there is hope that we will change course in November.

I don't think that the Russians now have the same ability to throw the bums out that we do.

Putin's approval ratings are around 70-75%

The russian opinion I hear, is that if Putin is not kicking some Georgian arse ASAP, I am not voting for him any longer.
I have quite a few Russian friends to know what's going on there.

Putin's approval ratings are around 70-75%

The russian opinion I hear, is that if Putin is not kicking some Georgian arse ASAP, I am not voting for him any longer.
I have quite a few Russian friends to know what's going on there.

Putin hasn't been great on press freedom.

I don't like that in any world leader, Russian or American, and I don't feel compelled to defend myself more than that.

threatening Russia it bullies younger countries but not Putin

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Obama would be much more effective, of course. Which might make Putin more afraid of him, actually.

Remember, Osama Bin Laden's best friend turned out to the incompetent fool George W. Bush.

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A "hard stare" would be adequate from McCain? What a pantload.

You are on the wrong forum. And you're just plain wrong.

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"Instinctively?" Because he was a POW, or a pampered son and grandson of admirals?

Obama was a community organizer on the south side of Chicago. McCain wouldn't have lasted five minutes there.

Plus, you think Putin is tough? Obama stared down Hillary.

Judgment also counts. Cheney is "tough." Look where he has taken us.

I would take Obama on my side over flip-flopping McCain any day of the week. I think you couldn't be more wrong on this one if you tried. McCain is a volatile incompetent.

Plus, Obama can hit the three.

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Wow, you hit all the code words, didn't you?

Now I get it. No need to analyze your posts further.

By the way, the next time you mention "judgment" as an element of being a "natural born fighter" will be your first time.

Enjoy your idol worship of "natural born fighter" McCain. He's a hotheaded jerk who has no business being commander in chief.

You are definitely on the wrong forum. This is DU. We support the nominee here. Maybe you ought to take your comic book fantasies of "toughness" elsewhere.

McCain was going to be an admiral from the day he was born. He fucked up in Annapolis, graduating 894 out of 899, and his pamperers got him through that. He got into flight school even though his class standing didn't qualify him because his pamperers saw to that. He got a combat assignment on a carrier because you can't become a carrier admiral if you can't fly and don't have combat experience--and his pamperers saw to that.

Some surviving crewmembers from the Forrestal claim that it was McCain himself, "wet-starting" his A-4 to scare the pilot in the F-4 behind him, which touched off the rocket which started the disastrous fire there, and if that's true then his pamperers saw to it that he wasn't held accountable and instead transferred to the Oriskany.

But it's true that he managed to fly 23 more combat missions than our current "war hero" President, but that doesn't qualify him to run a formerly great nation, or fight a war, any more than his race or his place of birth does.

Go back to the Free Republic, and try returning when you can complete a sentence.

You do not want a reckless leader in charge of an army of soldiers. That is a recipe for another war America could ill-afford.

...you know: Mississippi, Scotch-Irish, Brett Favre, natural feelins....

And other such empirical data...:crazy:

I know that because I live in Mississippi. He will bring disaster for the US if he was in charge and he decided a war with Russia is what is needed.

Are you implying that "real men" instinctively prefer McCain? If so, a lot of men would take exception to the claim. Plus, women vote too, and serve in the military.

And we don't need to rein in the Russians on this just because the neo-cons planned, prepped and instigated it. What, do you really think we'll prevail? Right... another cakewalk... You think the Russians are our only enemy now? Or maybe you really do just want to condemn our children to a uninhabitable world. Don't take the bait!

I think Obama could keep his cool, like Kennedy in the Cuban Missile Crisis. McCain might fly off the handle, and the nukes might start flying shortly thereafter.

Let's see what the poster has to say about some damned "instinct" when it comes to reality, like dealing with the Cuban Missile Crisis.

I have no doubt that McCain would have triggered all-out war.

...from Bobby Kennedy. Regarding the Cuban Missile crises, Bobby had told Adam Walinsky, "you know, we had 13 people in that room , and if any one of the 8 of them had been President, we would have had a nuclear war".

So 8 of the 13 wanted to nuke Russia, and thus in return, we would have been nuked, and life on earth would be over. I'll take the cool-headed intellectual over military machismo any day.

That's who I see McCain as, though I don't know if it fair or not.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Go find an "I get an orgasm every time I see John McCain" site. They must be out there somewhere.

DU doesn't need this.

Disgusting crap with no place here on DU.

Among the most illiterate posters ever, too. Which is of course no surprise.

Thank you, moderators.

:hi:

In fact, it looked like opposing parties in divorce court.

Apparently, other meetings were "frank exchanges of views."

:banghead:

Let the two Darth Vaders size each other up.

...looks like one tin soldier just rode away...

Would you want to face an ignorant senile moron or a cool, educated, politically sophisticated leader of men?

...is unable to answer. He currently resides in Boot Hill...:-)

It now appears that at least Russia is refusing to do so since Georgia is offering to negotiate.

The fact that the Europeans are getting interested suggests that this is becoming a real problem for them.

But they will make a show of taking their time about it. They will want to make it clear that they are in control of the situation.

I hope everyone plays along, and the situation doesn't spin out of control.

Independence for Abkhasia and S. Osettia or reattachment of Georgia to Russia, de jure or de facto?

It is hard to see them going back to the status quo regarding South Osettia, at least not the status quo as the Georgians interpret it (i.e. it is Georgian territory). These regions seem too small to be viable entities, though.

I am guessing that South Ossetia will be reattached to North Ossetia, and both will become "voluntary" members of the Russian Federation, as I believe North Ossetia is now. The U.N. will eventually ratify the deal, maybe after a referendum of the population, which would go against Georgia according to everything I have read. The same may be true for Abkhasia.

I can't see Russia annexing Georgia. I don't think they want to get into a sustained occupation like they did in Afghanistan or the U.S. has done in Iraq. It just drains too much blood and treasure from a country.

All that being said, who knows?

leave office. In my book, that sounds like regime change, not that the U.S. hasn't done that before.

I think that one of the things that Russia is after here is control of the pipelines carrying natural gas and oil out of the Caspian and Central Asia. They are the only way for those products to reach customers elsewhere without going through Mother Russia.

If Russia controls those, it can completely jerk around oil consuming countries, and I think that the customers for that oil are primarily western Europeans.

Control also means complete control over the former Soviet oil gas pumping republics, like Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan and Khazakstan.

After all, in 2005, Putin called the dismemberment of the Soviet Union as one of the biggest geopolitical mistakes of the 20th century.

It may tempt Russia to go the extra step into Georgia. I tend to think the costs of occupation would outweigh the benefits, though.

we take back our punk Saakashvili and replace him with a more moderate puppet.
Saakashvili was installed in Georgia through "Rose Revolution" by neo-cons.

Hague Tribunal awaits Mr. Saakashvili for shelling unarmed civilians with MLRS and artillery in the middle of the night.

what about Putin shelling all over Georgia?
What about assaulting whole Georgia?
Your "punk" Saakashvili was elected by people not you.

"Hope" is a wonderful thing to aspire to, and Hope and Change are great in our personal lives, and the life of our nation.

Not so great with diplomacy, however. Give me hardheaded but optimistic types like George Ball over neocons like Cheney every time.

I certainly hope that he will be brought to justice when his term is over. I'm hopeful that Ron Suskind is really on to something.

Georgia: Gori evacuated as fears of Russian advance into Georgia grow
A full-scale evacuation of the Georgian city of has Gori started as fears rose that Russia would soon advance its troops across the border from the breakaway republic of South Ossetia into the main body of Georgia itself.
Any such incursion would be a dangerous escalation of a conflict that has already reportedly claimed thousands of lives and displaced thousands more. Russia, which said it moved into South Ossetia last week to protect pro-Russians there from "genocide" commited by Georgians, has now been accused of "ethnic cleansing" itself. Russia regained total control of Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, and Georgia offered a unilateral ceasefire as it withdrew all its troops.

International opinion hardened against Russia, which has been roundly accused of a "disproportionate reaction" to Georgia's move into South Ossetia last week. Jim Jeffrey, the US's deputy National Security Advisor, told reporters: "We have made it clear to the Russians that if the disproportionate and dangerous escalation on the Russian side continues, that this will have a significant long-term impact on US-Russian relations."

But American diplomats conceded that the US had few options and ruled out military intervention on behalf of Georgia. "We have no good options," a US National Security Council official told The Daily Telegraph. "We need Russia's co-operation over Iran and derailing that over a localised conflict in Georgia makes no sense. We just have to hope that diplomacy prevails. The next necessary step is for Russia to respond positively to Georgia's ceasefire declaration."

more:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2535881/Georgia-Gori-evacuated-as-fears-of-Russian-advance-into-Georgia-grow.html

essentially says that we're busy with Iran and Iraq and we don't care much about some local dust-up.

The problem is that the dust-up may involve access to Caspian and Central Asian oil without Russian supervision, which I firmly believe was one of the reasons we went against Iraq and are rattling sabres with Iran.

My guess is that the local dust-up is getting plenty of attention and will continue to receive the Security Council love if things continue to escalate.

Oil or more precisely about proposed future and present oil and gas pipelines to the West, Israel and Asian markets. American-Israeli trained and equipped Georgian troops gave Russia the perfect excuse to intervene and they were ready. I wonder who will win this great chest game George Bush or Putin ?

However, I don't have any more confidence in Putin than I have in Bush or the Israelis to deal fairly with hydrocarbon resources.

This is just the opening of the game, or perhaps series of games. I think that it's too soon to tell who will come out on top, whatever that means in this context.

But it is worth seeing how they are portraying the situation. They may represent the thinking of the conservative and neo-conservative decision makers, as the western position solidifies. The fact that they say they have "ruled out military action" is useful to know.

Former Jewish Agency employee says capital's residents disconnected from information sources, websites blocked. 'Russians trying to spread fear,' he says

Yael Levy
Published: 08.11.08, 00:32 / Israel News

Vladimir Bedvanov, a former Jewish Agency worker, recounted Sunday's developments: "The Russian army attacked the capital this morning. We were woken up at 5 am by the aerial bombings that rocked Tbilisi. Contrary to most reports, they not only bombed the train station, but also struck civilian plants located in close proximity to residential complexes and a gas station in the city. They also bombarded the area near the airport."

According to Bedvanov, Russia has also disconnected the Georgian people from most of their information sources. "The Russian have blocked all of the Georgian websites; they are trying to spread fear," he said.

According to him, the residents of Georgia are receiving false reports from the Russian media, adding that one report showed Russian President Dmitry Medvedev saying the Russians want to destroy all of Georgia, and not just fight for South Ossetia.

Bedvanov said he feared for the Jews living in the Georgian city of Gori. "There is a Jewish community there and a synagogue; the Russians bombarded the city for three whole days," he said.


More: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3580573,00.html