Russia scales down Georgia toll

Source: BBC

Russia has issued new, reduced casualty figures for the Georgian conflict, with 133 civilians now listed as dead in the disputed region of South Ossetia.

The figure is far lower than the 1,600 people Russia initially said had died.

Prosecutors say they have opened a case against Georgia for genocide, while Tbilisi has already filed charges of ethnic cleansing against Moscow.

The move comes as the first international aid group arrived in the disputed region since the fighting.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7572635.stm

S. Ossetian official: nearly 1,500 died
Published: Aug. 20, 2008 at 12:09 PMOrder reprints | Print Story | Email to a Friend | Post a Comment Close TBILISI, Georgia, Aug. 20 (UPI) -- Officials in South Ossetia said nearly 1,500 residents were killed in Georgia's military operation in the breakaway province.

Officials of the breakaway republic earlier said the number dead topped 2,000 while Russia -- which sent troops into the area and overwhelmed Georgian forces -- estimated the death toll at 1,600, the Russian news agency RIA-Novosti reported Wednesday.

However, independent reports on the number dead showed lower numbers.

"At a meeting of the emergency commission on dealing with the consequences of Georgia's act of aggression, it was announced that 1,492 people were killed in Georgia's attack on South Ossetia," government spokeswoman Irina Gagloyeva said.

more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/08/20/S_Ossetian_official_nearly_1500_died/UPI-12171219248594/

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands: The International Criminal Court is analyzing evidence of alleged war crimes in the fighting between Georgia and Russia, the prosecutor for the tribunal in The Hague said Wednesday.

Reported attacks on civilians include the 14-hour bombardment of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, and Russian military attacks on the Georgian city of Gori, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch said.

The groups warned Russian and Georgian forces that attacks targeting civilians could constitute war crimes.

Prosecutor Luis Moreno Ocampo said he has met with Russian and Georgian representatives and is examining evidence.

"My office considers carefully all information relating to alleged crimes within its jurisdiction ... regardless of the individuals or groups alleged to have committed the crimes," he said in a statement.

more:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/20/europe/EU-War-Crimes-Georgia.php

Uncovering truth among the debris

By Stephanie Holmes
BBC News


As accusations of indiscriminate violence, murder and genocide are hurled between Russia and Georgia over the South Ossetia conflict, human rights investigators are painstakingly trying to establish the facts on the ground.
Residential buildings were hit during the conflict

Researchers suggest both sides may have violated the codes of war - using violence that was either disproportionate or indiscriminate, or both - claims that the International Criminal Court is currently investigating.

Russian prosecutors have announced they are opening criminal cases into the deaths of 133 civilians who they say were killed by Georgian forces.

Initially, however, Russia suggested more than 1,500 people had died in the conflict.

Last week, Georgia filed a lawsuit against Russia at the International Court of Justice, based at The Hague, alleging the country had attempted to ethnically cleanse Georgians from the breakaway regions.


more:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7572969.stm

If you just side with Russia's or Georgia's word, the facts are harder to come by.

Even averaging the two seems to be better than accepting either side. But that's grounds for excommunication from the congregational of the faithful. Sometimes you can get to the facts by replacing "Georgian" with "Ossetian" in Russia's speech--"Ossetians ethnically cleansed by Georgians", for example, falls under that heading.

Although, to be honest, often the facts have tended to fall on the side of the word of the Georgians (which is to say, populace, not necessarily the government).

A fair number of facts have been fairly evident, because both non-standard Russian, Georgian, and often independent Western witnesses have said as much. Or common sense, devoid of extreme bias and hatred, leads to some conclusions likely to be true. Those have usually been ignored by the official Russian media. And their faithful ... esp. when it agrees with their backyard politics.

Some facts are still iffy. Usually that's because we don't have independent confirmation, or those who are saying are waffling (lest they be caught out lying).

We still don't really know.

Not just a great deal.

When Georgia and Russian "embedded" bloggers agree, it's probably a good view, whatever official rumor outlets say.

Sometimes the facts are incidentally reported, and since they're put without pretense at making a point, are not likely to be from spin.

And sometimes logic just gets you close to where you need to go, when combined with incidentally reported facts.

Not often enough. Usually it's just enough to point derisively at some report and laugh.

Source: The Australian

Moscow initially insisted that 1600 civilians were killed when Georgian forces attacked the pro-Russian enclave of South Ossetia on August 7, but yesterday it said it had obtained the names of only 133 civilian victims.

More civilians may have been killed without yet being identified, but after more than a week in control of South Ossetia the Russian authorities have been unable to back up their claims of hundreds of deaths.

Russian officials released the scaled-down figures as the first international aid workers were allowed into South Ossetia to begin the grim work of assessing the death count and the devastation wreaked on survivors.

A small team from the International Committee of the Red Cross has finally been allowed into South Ossetia.

Russia says the situation is still confused because tens of thousands of South Ossetians have fled north of the border into Russia and many victims may already have been buried, but after interviewing refugees and counting bodies in South Ossetia they have been able to identify 133 dead. South Ossetia's pro-Russian administration stood by the initial reports on the number of dead, insisting that 1492 civilians had been killed.

The US-based group Human Rights Watch said its own investigations had confirmed that the Georgian military carried out indiscriminate shelling of residential areas of South Ossetia's capital, Tskhinvali, but the toll seemed to be in the dozens rather than the hundreds or thousands.

Read more: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24219963-2703,00.html

Who could have predicted that Putin would lie? :sarcasm:

They lie, the US lies, everybody lies!

And the first totals from Katrina were in the thousands.

It's not uncommon at all for initial estimates to be this far off.

Especially when you need to come up with an excuse to go invade another country (like Russia did).

Wow!!!

How many georgian that lived in s ossetia killed

Don't want outside news in I wonder why

Now, I wonder how many Georgians living in South Ossetia and Abkhazia were ethnically cleansed by rebels during the 90s?

Russia wants to make it look like Georgia is committing genocide in order to be able to use the "NATO did the same thing in Kosovo" argument and DUers fell for Russia's BS hook, line, and sinker.

In case you forgot Russia was blowing up allot of stuff there as well.