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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 10:47 AM
Original message
Sun Makes History: First Spotless Month in a Century
Source: DailyTech

Drop in solar activity has potential effect for climate on earth.

The sun has reached a milestone not seen for nearly 100 years: an entire month has passed without a single visible sunspot being noted.

The event is significant as many climatologists now believe solar magnetic activity – which determines the number of sunspots -- is an influencing factor for climate on earth.

According to data from Mount Wilson Observatory, UCLA, more than an entire month has passed without a spot. The last time such an event occurred was June of 1913. Sunspot data has been collected since 1749.

In the past 1000 years, three previous such events -- the Dalton, Maunder, and Spörer Minimums, have all led to rapid cooling. On was large enough to be called a "mini ice age". For a society dependent on agriculture, cold is more damaging than heat. The growing season shortens, yields drop, and the occurrence of crop-destroying frosts increases.

Read more: www.dailytech.com/Sun+Makes+History+First+Spotless+Month+in+a+Century/article12823.htm



If this causes a short term cooling of the Earth, then I see a couple of major problems. First, it will provide more ammunition for Anthro-Global Warming skeptics. Second, when the sun spots do reappear combined with the greenhouse gases, think how much the temperature will jump.

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CherokeeDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. I Have That Argument With My Dad, Regularly...
He (a non-scientist) says...this is all cyclical. I have a science degree (granted in microbiology so no physics expert) and say yes...it is cyclical but, man's intervention has created circumstances that have greatly accelerated natural cycles. If we get a cool down period, I will never hear the end of it.

D
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. That's my concern too.
Any natural cooling cycle will mask the effects of Global Warming, make most people skeptical about it, and kill all efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Then when the cooling cycle ends...WHAM! We get all the effects of global warming at once.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
34. Global Warming is a total misnomer. Global Volatility makes more sense.
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Delphinus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. You are correct.
A few years ago I started saying Global Climate Destabilization (or something like that - wow, am experiencing a serious brain fart at the moment!) because it's more than warming.
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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. This is major
Very important observations.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
3. I have another take...
If this is for real then it may be VERY bad. Global cooling can be a lot worse than warming as cited in the article. People freezing to death, crops decimated, etc. Will be interesting to see.
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. At most, it'll probably mask the effects of global warming
We are still warmer than average right now, even with the last couple of "mild" years.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. In other words, depending on your world view, we've either gotten really
lucky or been blessed with a second chance!
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. Global dimming does as well, that would be pollution trails from jets, which has a cooling effect
Edited on Mon Sep-01-08 02:52 PM by Uncle Joe
which partially blocks sun light from reaching the ground.

After 9/11 when jets were grounded for a few days, there was a spike in global temperatures.

However, global warming is the stronger force as the earth is heating up in spite of the effects of global dimming.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Interesting? Well, science is always interesting, but I wouldn't
want to apply that word to the contemplation of a mass die-off!
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
31. A mass extinction is underway. As it is, us humans are the last surviving
example of the Homo line.
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. You're forgetting that we (homo sapiens) have lived through ice ages
Even simple technology can deal with too little heat. Dealing with too little heat is MUCH easier than dealing with too much: living creatures are heat engines. We can heat our own living space merely by living, if it's sufficiently insulated. What we can't do is get rid of excess heat. Nobody ever gets "coldstroke" or "cold exhaustion". Local frostbite on long-exposed skin, yes, but we don't suffer systemic collapse from cold the way we do from heat.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Huh?
Hello hypothermia?! Humans can survive without A/C. Without heat is much more difficult. Also, mant crops can tolerate higher temps, but if the temp drops just once below a particular crops cold threshhold, many time it is killed off for the season. Check out the frost scares in FL for their citrus crops.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. People die every year in my area from heat prostration
They're right, humans have survived ice ages ... in fact, we're still in an ice age just at a different portion of it.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Read and learn
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I've read and know
We're still in an ice age. We're always in some stage of an ice age. And 100 years is hardly a sampling
to judge anything on.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. But 50 years of global warming data is?
Climate patterns are difficult to ascertain with the limited data we have now.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. We don't just have data, we know the process
We're at the trout in milk stage with global warming.
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. You probably don't recall the summer of 2003 that killed *30,000* people in Europe!
Obviously, you're not really thinking clearly about what "too much heat" means. People die all the time from heat, but from cold only when not properly fed, clothed, and sheltered.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. No, I'm thinking perfectly clear.
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #28
37. Sorry, but you're not. Note *why* they die. It's for the reasons I gave
The food and shelter they have is inadequate, so their body heat isn't enough. With adequate food and shelter, that wouldn't happen because, unlike heat, cold can be passively held at bay because we ourselves generate heat.

People regularly survive blizzards by digging into the snow itself and waiting it out, if their clothing is sufficiently warm and waterproof. The analogous tactic in a heat wave would just kill the person faster.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. And why do people die of the heat?
Same exact reason. Humans have mechanisms to deal with the heat as they do with the cold. And yes, it can be passively held at bay. You do need one thing though. Water, which also happens to be the most plentiful substance on the Earth. Check out this temp map of Africa, 90's and 100's.

http://www.wunderground.com/global/Region/AF/Temperature.html

Do you think A/C is prevalent there? Are all the people dead? No, of course not. Most of the world does not have a/c and survives. I would contend that many more people die of the cold then the heat each year. Also, many crops can be grown at high temperatures. Not too many at 31 degrees Fahrenheit.
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TTowntom Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
47. This is totally off base
Human beings lived through an ice age during the hunter-gatherer stage, when we were all still in Africa. A similar event now would mean billions of people starving to death, through crop failures. Nearly all the industrialized world's food is grown in the temperate zone, in countries that would see much shorter growing seasons from even a small drop in temperatures.

Cold is NOT easier to deal with than heat. The average temperature of the planet is 54F. People (and more importantly crops) can handle temperatures much higher without any mitigation at all. If the weather gets colder, we can heat our houses (if we have enough energy that is). But we can't heat our crops.

Also remember that global warming doesn't really affect the tropics. It heats the coldest areas the most. Likewise, global cooling COOLS those areas the most. Canada, Northern Europe, Russia, those are the ones who will suffer the most.
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denverbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
8. I actually hope this is correct, in some ways.
Clearly, we are in a warming cycle. Even most freetards agree with that, now, since the evidence is overwhelming. They, naturally, claim it's not caused by greenhouse gases. But regardless of the cause, if sunspot activity does cause a period of cooling, it will offset the affects of the previous warming and give us more time to come up with solutions to the greenhouse gas/energy problem.
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. As long as we take advantage of the time
You're right, it might give us more time to come up with solutions. More than likely though, it'll make people forget about the problem and continue on.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
10. Oregon Coast blackberries are not ready yet, a month late
Local gardeners are very unhappy this year.
Commercial chantrelle hunters will be happy early.
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HopeHoops Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
11. Bush blames the Democrats
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
12. I hope it does have a rapid-cooling effect...
It may buy us a little time to save the planet from global warming.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. but what if we have to take all the canadians in as refugees of a mini ice age.. the
Edited on Mon Sep-01-08 12:54 PM by sam sarrha
mexicans will be pissed off when we have to send em home..
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Nah...Canadians know how to handle the cold.
They're tough buggers.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. not when things are under ice, and tons of snow.. maybe 30 ' of snow that never melts for a couple
decades or cenruries...

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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. As long as we use the time wisely.
I don't have a high opinion of human behavior, so I suspect we'll just forget the whole greenhouse gases issues and start burning more coal/oil than ever before.

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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Could be....
I think a great deal hinges on the upcoming election. Much of Europe is already hip to the need for altered habits. We need a leader who is willing to follow their lead, and work to develop clean energy solutions. We certainly can't preach to others about it until we make the effort ourselves.
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JanusAscending Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
36. May I suggest.......
"REDEEM THE TIME" !!! Your's truly, GOD.
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FredStembottom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
14. I see no down-side.
Personally, I would love to skip the effects of global warming. Especially for my children and (one-day) grandchildren.
As far as CO2 goes - well, a cool period will just give more time to research the whole thing. Put the icing on the arguments, so to speak.
Afterall, burning fossil fuels is bad in a number of ways - not just CO2 output.
In other words: It still is the "last hours of ancient sunlight", a cooling period would just facilitate a soft landing to this period of human history and avoid many thousands dying.
I'm for avoiding many thousands dying.
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midnight armadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
32. This wouldn't stop global warming
merely put it on hold for a few years or decades.

then once sunspot activity returns global warming returns with a vengeance if we haven't cleaned up our act during the cooler period.
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FredStembottom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #32
40. Which is just what I was hoping for in my post.....
...although I wasn't very clear.
The cool-spell might allow us to really get our ducks in a row for a return of global warming later.
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TTowntom Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #32
46. You miss the point
An a priori calculation of GHG-based forcing doesn't result in nearly enough warming to explain the current trend. To get GW to fit the observed data, positive feedback mechanisms must be postulated.

If solar variability really can cause rapid short-term cooling without major changes in TSI (total solar irradiance) then it can also cause short-term warming. Which means the strongest factor in favor of AGW theory (that no other forcing fits the data) has just been decimated.


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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. Greenhouse forcing doesn't explain the current trend?
Estimates of climate sensitivity have for decades remained at ~3C per doubling of atmpospheric CO2. Arrhenius predicted the trend in 1896.

...solar variability really can cause rapid short-term cooling without major changes in TSI (total solar irradiance)...

Highly unlikely -- what possible mechanism other than TSI could there be?
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TTowntom Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Not very well no.
The source article for this thread lists a few possible mechanisms for solar forcings other than TSI. The GCR-cloud link alone has had over two dozen peer-reviewed papers published on it in the last few years; it's gained considerable ground.

Also, estimates of climate sensitivity have changed considerably. Hansen in the 1980s was predicting sensitivities of over 6C. IPCC AR4 reduced sensitivity to half that.. Research such as Schwartz from Brookhaven National Labs pegs it even lower still, about 1.1C, of which we've already experienced over half of.

Arrhenius aside, prior to about 1950, CO2 was thought to exert no warming at all, due to H20 vapor having already absorbed pretty much all the infrared in the very narrow band CO2 is active in. It wasn't until we noted the high-altitude (low pressure) spectrum of CO2 is a bit different, than anyone began to take CO2-induced forcing seriously.

Even still, the basic calculations show a extremely low base forcing rate. You have to invoke positive feedback mechanisms to fit the data.

But the larger problem is that the "fingerprint" doesn't match. Despite what the alarmists at RealClimate say, the exact pattern of warming is at odds with model results for a well-mixed GHG-based forcing. The models predict *increasing* warming as one rises into the troposphere, dropping off to stratospheric cooling. But what we actually see is a monotonically decreasing function -- the most warming at the surface, slightly less in the troposphere, culminating in stratospheric cooling. Couple that the fact that the NH seems to be warming about 3X faster than the SH, and you have a real problem with the theory.
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Here's what the climate scientists ("alarmists") at RealClimate have to say:
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
15. But even if the earth actually cools down a bit, it won't affect the level of pollution in the air..
and rapid destruction of our breathable atmosphere.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
17. Do we have suits for heat that aren't asbestos yet?
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
18. they forgot the real consequences.FAMINE, STARVATION.while we turn the food that'd save into alcohol
:party:
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
24. It has only been a hundred years without one
That's a very tiny piece of time in reference to the solar system. It's a high probability event, really.
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TTowntom Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
45. About equal to our climate data
We only have about 150 years of accurate temperature data for the northern hemisphere. For the SH, its only about half that. The records before that are just proxy data, which has numerous problems.

Interestingly enough, a lot of recent research has indicated the warming trend actually began about 250 years ago.
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. The proxy data are better than you think
Here's a good discussion:

Past reconstructions: problems, pitfalls and progress
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/12/past-reconstructions/langswitch_lang/tk
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NJCher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 04:53 AM
Response to Original message
38. Not by Fire but by Ice (title of book)
Edited on Tue Sep-02-08 05:07 AM by NJCher
I've heard a show with this guy, who claims we are entering an ice age:

http://www.iceagenow.com/

snip:

Astronomical Society Warns of Global Cooling
1 Jul 08 - "The level of activity on the Sun will significantly
diminish sometime in the next decade and remain low for
about 20 - 30 years," said Ian Wilson, lead author of a
study appearing in the June issue of Publications of the
Astronomical Society of Australia.

snip



Cher

p.s. I wanted to add that if you visit the site at the link above, he has a statement there about waking up being buried under many feet of snow. In fact, however, if one listens to his interviews, an ice age is survivable.
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
42. To learn why solar forcing does not contribute to global warming:
Changing Sun, Changing Climate?
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/solar.htm

This essay is partly based, by permission, on an essay by Theodore S. Feldman (PSDI, Bedford, Mass), "Solar Variability and Climate Change," rewritten and expanded by Spencer Weart. For additional material, see Feldman's site (http://www.agu.org/history/SV.shtml).

Since it is the Sun's energy that drives the weather system, scientists naturally wondered whether they might connect climate changes with solar variations. Yet the Sun seemed to be stable over the timescale of human lifetimes. Attempts to discover cyclic variations in weather and connect them with the 11-year sunspot cycle, or other possible solar cycles ranging up to a few centuries long, gave results that were ambiguous at best. These attempts got a well-deserved bad reputation. Jack Eddy overcame this with a 1976 study that demonstrated that irregular variations in solar surface activity, a few centuries long, were connected with major climate shifts. The mechanism remained uncertain, but plausible candidates emerged. The next crucial question was whether a rise in the Sun's activity could explain the global warming seen in the 20th century? By the 1990s, there was a tentative answer: minor solar variations could indeed have been partly responsible for some past fluctuations... but future warming from the rise in greenhouse gases would far outweigh any solar effects.

The Sun so greatly dominates the skies that the first scientific speculations about different climates asked only how sunlight falls on the Earth in different places. The very word climate (from Greek klimat, inclination or latitude) originally stood for a simple band of latitude. When scientists began to ponder the possibility of climate change, their thoughts naturally turned to the Sun. Early modern scientists found it plausible that the Sun could not burn forever, and speculated about a slow deterioration of the Earth's climate as the fuel ran out.(1) In 1801 the great astronomer William Herschel introduced the idea of more transient climate connections. It was a well-known fact that some stars varied in brightness. Since our Sun is itself a star, it was natural to ask whether the Sun's brightness might vary, bringing cooler or warmer periods on Earth? As evidence of such a connection, Herschel pointed to periods in the 17th century, ranging from two decades to a few years, when hardly any sunspots had been observed. During those periods the price of wheat had been high, he pointed out, presumably reflecting spells of drought.(2)

(more)

http://www.aip.org/history/climate/solar.htm

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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
43. What's Wrong with the Sun? (Nothing)
What's Wrong with the Sun? (Nothing)

July 11, 2008: Stop the presses! The sun is behaving normally.

So says NASA solar physicist David Hathaway. "There have been some reports lately that Solar Minimum is lasting longer than it should. That's not true. The ongoing lull in sunspot number is well within historic norms for the solar cycle."

This report, that there's nothing to report, is newsworthy because of a growing buzz in lay and academic circles that something is wrong with the sun. Sun Goes Longer Than Normal Without Producing Sunspots declared one recent press release. A careful look at the data, however, suggests otherwise.

But first, a status report: "The sun is now near the low point of its 11-year activity cycle," says Hathaway. "We call this 'Solar Minimum.' It is the period of quiet that separates one Solar Max from another."

During Solar Max, huge sunspots and intense solar flares are a daily occurrence. Auroras appear in Florida. Radiation storms knock out satellites. Radio blackouts frustrate hams. The last such episode took place in the years around 2000-2001.

During Solar Minimum, the opposite occurs. Solar flares are almost nonexistent while whole weeks go by without a single, tiny sunspot to break the monotony of the blank sun. This is what we are experiencing now.

Although minima are a normal aspect of the solar cycle, some observers are questioning the length of the ongoing minimum, now slogging through its 3rd year.

"It does seem like it's taking a long time," allows Hathaway, "but I think we're just forgetting how long a solar minimum can last." In the early 20th century there were periods of quiet lasting almost twice as long as the current spell. (See the end notes for an example.) Most researchers weren't even born then.

Hathaway has studied international sunspot counts stretching all the way back to 1749 and he offers these statistics: "The average period of a solar cycle is 131 months with a standard deviation of 14 months. Decaying solar cycle 23 (the one we are experiencing now) has so far lasted 142 months--well within the first standard deviation and thus not at all abnormal. The last available 13-month smoothed sunspot number was 5.70. This is bigger than 12 of the last 23 solar minimum values."

In summary, "the current minimum is not abnormally low or long."

(more)

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/11jul_solarcycleupdate.htm

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TTowntom Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. A bit out of date.
There's been 50 more sun-spotless days since that article was originally written. Also, Hathaway is the scientist who in 2006 predicted this solar cycle would be stronger than normal. In the past year, he's issued 6 new revisions to his activity predictions -- each of them lower than the one before.

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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Welcome to DU, TTowntom!
:hi:

I don't think any of those observations refute the analysis: there's nothing unusual about this sunspot cycle.

And, in any case, sunspots don't affect climate.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
49. Must have grown out of its teen years
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 03:54 PM
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51. Well, We didn't have an ice age after 1913.
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skoalyman Donating Member (751 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. First Spotless Month in a Century cant Say the same for mcnuts lol
:spray:
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