Meatpacker in Brooklyn Challenges a Union Vote (asks US Supreme Court to rule on illegal immigrants)

Source: NY Times

By STEVEN GREENHOUSE

Agriprocessors, the Brooklyn-based company that is the nation’s largest kosher meat producer, is well known for the labor troubles at its meatpacking plant in Iowa — federal agents detained 389 of its workers as illegal immigrants in May, and labor officials in Iowa have accused it of employing 57 under-age workers.

But Agriprocessors is also having labor troubles closer to home, with the company asking the United States Supreme Court to overturn a vote to unionize at its distribution center along the Brooklyn waterfront.

If successful, the company’s appeal could have repercussions at companies across the country: it is trying to persuade the Supreme Court to rule that illegal immigrants do not have the right to join labor unions.

In September 2005, the company’s Brooklyn employees voted 15 to 5 to unionize, with one ballot challenged. The workers, most of them immigrants from Mexico, complained of low pay, not receiving time-and-a-half for overtime and not having health insurance or paid holidays.


Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/01/nyregion/01union.html?em

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IF the court finds illegals can't be members and or vote, every employer will be looking to hire them to break unions, etc... Agriprocessors hired them and the under age kids. This is a very important case if it is taken up.

Let's not have employers divide us once again.

they didn't know they were hiring "illegal immigrants." I call big time bullshit. These corporations know damned well what they're doing. I say let 'em unionize.

deport the job thieves.

methinks I hear crickets. It's not going to happen. The US has done zero but trash the Latin American economy for decades, so what do people do? Come here for work. And in the US, they find plenty of unscrupulous businesses willing to fuck them over for slave wages, doing jobs "Americans won't do", whatever that means. And on and on it goes. Deport them and more will take their place.

These workers are human beings, by the way. Has that ever crossed your mind? Real progressive thinking that you exhibit.

Agriprocessors just might be the shadiest business in America, which is definitely saying something.

as they are both Agriprocessors, and I'm Jewish - we buy our meat locally (i.e., Romanian Kosher Sausage out of Chicago) and a few local kosher butchers in New York.

Wasn't it illegal for Agriprocessors to hire undocumented workers?

I know that when I am hired for a job, I have to provide proof positive that I am a citizen or legal resident. If I can't provide that proof, I am not hired.

Logical conclusion one: If it is illegal for Agriprocessors to hire undocumented aliens, then there would probably be no legal basis for the undocumented aliens to join the union.

Logical conclusion two: If Agriprocessors are legally allowed to hire undocumented aliens, then undocumented aliens have a legal basis for joining the union.

Logical Fallacy: Agriprocessors can legally hire undocumented aliens, but undocumented aliens are legally prohibited from joining the union.

illegal aliens do not have the right to unionize, they aren't here legally and as such are not entitled to the same privileges that American workers are.

That being said the company should be penalized for admitting to knowingly hiring illegals.

that the company's knowingly hired illegals. It's a well known fact that South American illegals use falsified documents, and stolen identities and such to steal jobs.

Yes, I admit, in my heart I feel that the company knew what they were hiring. But until the feds start to clamp down on illegals then what can I do? Just complain, I guess.

Illegals are human, but they are not American. I'm not sure how breaking into this country and living here for how many years gives you the right to simply be a citizen.

it'll be interesting to see if they take the case.

If you hire someone and you're running a union shop, all employees should have the right to join the union. Otherwise employers will break the law and knowingly hire illegal immigrants just to bust unions.

of going after illegal immigration or supporting people who want to unionize, I support the pro-union people. The reason for going after illegal immigrants in my opinion is because they drive down the prevalent wage in their own jobs and in general. If they unionize, their wages go up, they are no longer putting downward pressure on wages, and have shown the kind of fortitude in defending worker's rights that I think would make them good candidates for green card status.

The other workers in those plants have a lot more in common with these immigrants than they do with the ownership of the corporation. We're not talking some little mom-and-pop place either.

What a double standard this company is trying to create. Geez.

If workers anywhere want better conditions (pay, benefits, security, etc) then they have to fight for better conditions for everyone. It's the only way to compete with these huge greedy companies. We can't succomb to this fear-based divide-and-conquer bullshit.

Solidarity.

They're still breaking the law regardless of their rate of pay, and even if their wages go up lots of them have family members who use social services at the expense of taxpayers who are here legally. I badly want our house in order for people here legally, but I have no sympathy for those who are not.

Keep in mind that the people making those laws, enforcing (or NOT enforcing) those laws, are the same people whose policies are making life in the native countries of most of these people intolerable - countries that have essentially been made into economic colonies of the US and its business interests. Do you trust those laws? Do you trust those enforcers?

IMO the bottom line is that workers in the US, be they legal or 'illegal', and people in those many other countries are on the same side, and until we are willing to accept that and to recognize our common foe, until we honestly identify the problem, the cause and effect, we will never be able to do anything productive about fixing it.

make a whole lot of others. Should we throw all of them out because you don't trust them? Can I start making "undocumented withdrawals" from banks and the wallets of people passing by if I don't like the people who made and enforce those laws?

IMO the bottom line is that we don't ignore laws just because they're inconvenient for the people you sympathize with. That's what Republicans do. Until we make any real efforts to enforce these laws and make life actual hell for illegals instead of "catch and release" and a few token raids here and there for the media, we won't make much of a dent in the flow, and that has to be done before we fix anything.

Maybe join the minutemen, sounds like your crowd. I'll pass on that, especially since the odds are good that at least one of my grandparents were 'illegals'.

Before we can fix anything we have to examine root causes. It has nothing to do with 'sympathy' or arbitrarily choosing to ignore laws. It's about justice. And you managed to ignore the main points of my post where I mentioned root causes. Well done.

We should not suspend law enforcement just for an exploratory commission on root causes. Once you do that, you pretty much have to suspend enforcement of every law because every law violation of any kind has some sort of root cause - he was poor, his country was poor, his mommy didn't hold him enough, his daddy held him too much, and so on. The "root cause" line is trotted out every time someone argues for a free pass for someone else who has broken the law; I don't buy it. I say enforce the laws first. As such, I ignored your "root cause" arguments because I think nothing of them.

I want every possible incentive to be here illegally removed, period. Draconian measures for both illegals and their employers, as well as for anyone who abets either. While we're encouraging illegals to get the hell out and stand in line behind those willing to obey the laws, you and the rest of the "root cause" crowd can examine all the root causes you like and introduce new legislation or changes to existing legislation. Until then, we shouldn't ignore a law because it makes it inconvenient for people who don't want to obey it.

You are assigning someone else's agenda to me. Half the people on this site do that all the time - I say one thing, you assume 50 other things about where I stand. This "line is trotted out every time..." Bullshit. Respond to what I say, not what you think I mean.

I'm not playing that game, man.

You want to remove incentives for immigrants to come here? Then stop the economic colonialism. Stop destroying countries, installing pro-corporate-american dictators in other countries, stop making it impossible for people to have a livelihood in their native countries. Because THAT is the root cause.

And until we do as you suggest, what is your suggested course of action? Ignore the law because we haven't fixed what YOU deem to be the root causes?

By the way, is the fault entirely ours, too? Nobody else is at fault, just us?

They exist to pander to certain constituencies, and to put fear in people, and to divide and conquer. The half-ass nature of enforcement is pandering to another, much more important constituency - the greediest of the business world who want these workers to stay to protect their own profits. And no matter how much you would like to scapegoat undocumented immigrants for our economic woes and kick them out of the country, those business interests will trump you every time. You'll get the half-ass laws and the random raids, and the business world will get it's cheap uninsured labor.

How would you suggest we enforce the laws? The impenetrable wall? Tens of thousands more immigration officers who, btw, when they do decide to enforce the law have a tendency to round up all brown people with accents with no cause or due process, and sort em out later? I'd love to hear you elaborate on your idea to make make their lives hell, I think that would help me understand exactly where you stand. The children, too, want to make their lives hell?

No we're not the only ones at fault - some of the blame probably goes to much of Europe and a few other pockets of the world too...

The wall will never be built, and only two miles or so have been completed (as a token gesture to people who bought the promise) even though it was promised in what - 2006? (I ask that way because I honestly don't remember the first time Bush promised it.)

Repugs want cheap labor so they won't do much more than a few raids for the press - but our side doesn't seem to give a shit about immigration laws either, and I really wonder why. Now, in the interests of full disclosure, I'll admit to you that I voted mostly Republican during my first three cracks at the polls - 1984, 1988 and 1990. Why? Because I was (and remain) vehemently pro-gun and was dumb enough to take Reagan at his advertised "face value" as a "good guy." I was 20 the first time I voted, and I was a one-issue voter.

Now the reason I bring this last point up is to let you know that I still have right-leaning relatives and friends, and when I hear them repeat the shit I heard so often about how only the Republicans are a party which gives a shit about the rule of law, it's posts like yours that make me see why they cling to that. Basically, all I'm hearing from you is that because your grandparents might have come here illegally and you seem to know all the root causes, we should leave these poor illegals alone and allow them to continue depressing wages / using social services at the expense of people here legally / taking jobs from people here legally.

Now, in answer to one of your questions, I already said how I'd enforce the laws: eliminate catch-and-release, and then in an earlier post I also said "Draconian measures for both illegals and their employers, as well as for anyone who abets either."

Now you can play the "dark skin" card as much as you like (as you said in an earlier post, "I'm not playing that game"), but you seem to think I'm under the impression that only people other than Latinos are here illegally. Believe it or not, I'm not saying "make life hard on / deport those pesky Latino illegals, but let the Irish ones stay." I want the boom lowered on anyone here illegally until we actually get our house in order for those people who ARE here legally.

As for "the children," if they are here illegally I have no more sympathy for them then I have for adults here legally. If they were born here, what do you suggest - automatically reward their parents with citizenship for completely disregarding our immigration laws (which, despite what you seem to think, are still laws even if neither side seems to care that they are)? I'd like to see the elimination of any automatic citizenship awarded to someone born here from parents here illegally.

I want all incentive to be here illegally or give birth while here illegally removed, and I do support tens of thousands of additional immigration officers. If someone here legally gets detained, let him or her prove it and be on their way. I was once detained by cops in a case of mistaken identity because I fit the description of a felony suspect (height, weight, race, clothes, even the car I was driving), and I don't piss and moan about it because I'd still rather have the cops try to arrest someone suspected of what I was initially suspected of rather than leave the suspect alone because it might offend someone else's delicate sensitivities.

By the way, what you call "scapegoating" of what you laughingly refer to as "undocumented immigrants" (nice use of the pro-illegal terminology, very well done - "immigrants," that's great) is what I call people being tired of bullshit such as tax dollars going to services for people who have no permission to be here, illegals getting in-state tuition when someone here legally from the next state over having to pay full price, and so on.

A lot of the arguments you've given me remind me of those I've heard in support of felons who come from poor backgrounds. Exactly how much are you willing to write off because someone's childhood or homeland wasn't to his or her satisfaction? What other laws besides immigration law are you willing to overlook for someone who fits that description?

and then station as many Migra inspectors (paid for by the company) at each plant as needed to ensure that all employees are citizens or legal residents.

Put the screws to the bastards. (They're also the people who appalled Temple Grandin with their horrible slaughter practices)

It's well known that her supposedly no-notice inspections are done after advance notice, so most plants slow down the line, increase the air pressure on the captive bolt gun, generally clean up, send illegals and minors home, etc.

I've never heard any such thing before.

I hope that makes sense. It would be a NEW union busting trick. Just what this company is trying to do.

That would be merely a pro-forma genuflection to the company. The key would be the station-the-inspectors part: prevent the company from EVER hiring another undoc. Turn the screws down tight.

From www.opensecrets.org.

Nary a single Democrat got money. Imagine that. And Aaron Rubashkin is the founder of Agriprocessors.

RUBASHKIN, ABRAHAM A
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 8/30/04 $2,000 Grassley, Chuck (R)
RUBASHKIN, BASYA C
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS/VICE-PRESIDENT 12/12/04 $2,000 Harris, Katherine (R)
RUBASHKIN, BASYA C
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS/VICE-PRESIDENT 12/12/04 $2,000 Harris, Katherine (R)
RUBASHKIN, BASYA CHANA
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS 3/24/04 $2,000 Specter, Arlen (R)
RUBASHKIN, BASYA CHANA
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS 3/24/04 $2,000 Specter, Arlen (R)
RUBASHKIN, LEAH
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 8/26/04 $2,000 Grassley, Chuck (R)
RUBASHKIN, LEAH
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 HOMEMAKER 3/24/04 $2,000 Specter, Arlen (R)
RUBASHKIN, LEAH
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 HOMEMAKER 3/24/04 $2,000 Specter, Arlen (R)
RUBASHKIN, LEAH
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRI PROCESSORS/HOMEMAKER 10/25/04 $1,000 Thompson, Stan (R)
RUBASHKIN, LEAH
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRI PROCESSORS/HOMEMAKER 10/25/04 $1,000 Thompson, Stan (R)
RUBASHKIN, LEAH
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRI PROCESSORS/HOMEMAKER 6/30/04 $1,000 Thompson, Stan (R)
RUBASHKIN, LEAH
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 HOMEMAKER 11/6/00 $1,000 Dear, Noach (R)
RUBASHKIN, LEAH
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS/BEEF PACKING 4/5/01 $250 Thompson, Stan (R)
RUBASHKIN, LEAH
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS/BEEF PACKING 11/30/01 $250 Thompson, Stan (R)
RUBASHKIN, RYFKA
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 8/30/04 $2,000 Grassley, Chuck (R)
RUBASHKIN, SHALOM
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 8/23/00 $1,800 Republican Party of Iowa (R)
RUBASHKIN, SHOLOM
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 SELF/C.E.O. 10/22/04 $4,000 Republican Party of Iowa (R)
RUBASHKIN, SHOLOM
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 8/26/04 $2,000 Latham, Tom (R)
RUBASHKIN, SHOLOM
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS/BEEF PACKING 3/11/04 $2,000 Thompson, Stan (R)
RUBASHKIN, SHOLOM
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS INC/PRESIDENT 6/9/06 $1,500 Dix, Bill (R)
RUBASHKIN, SHOLOM
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRI MEAT PROCESSORS 11/6/00 $1,000 Dear, Noach (R)
RUBASHKIN, SHOLOM
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 SELF/CEO 5/19/03 $1,000 Republican Party of Iowa (R)
RUBASHKIN, SHOLOM
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 5/9/02 $750 Republican Party of Iowa (R)
RUBASHKIN, SHOLOM
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS/BEEF PACKING 3/11/04 $500 Thompson, Stan (R)
RUBASHKIN, SHOLOM
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS/BEEF PACKING 11/30/01 $250 Thompson, Stan (R)
RUBASHKIN, SHOLOM
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS/BEEF PACKING 4/5/01 $250 Thompson, Stan (R)
RUBASHKIN, SHOLOM M
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS 3/24/04 $2,000 Specter, Arlen (R)
RUBASHKIN, SHOLOM M
POSTVILLE,IA 52152 AGRIPROCESSORS 3/24/04 $2,000 Specter, Arlen (R)
RUBASHKIN, SHOLOM M
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 8/26/04 $2,000 Grassley, Chuck (R)
RUBASHKIN, SHOLOM M
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS INC./AG BUSINESS 7/22/02 $1,000 Nussle, Jim (R)
RUBASHKIN, SHOLOM M
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS INC 10/26/00 $1,000 Nussle, Jim (R)
RUBASHKIN, SHOLOM M
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS INC./AG BUSINESS 1/23/02 $500 Nussle, Jim (R)
RUBASHKIN, SHOLOM M MR
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS INC./VICE PRESIDENT 1/30/04 $1,500 National Republican Congressional Cmte (R)
RUBASHKIN, SHOLOM M MR
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS INC./VICE PRESIDENT 4/3/03 $500 National Republican Congressional Cmte (R)
RUBASHKIN, TZVI H
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS/VICE-PRESIDENT 12/12/04 $2,000 Harris, Katherine (R)
RUBASHKIN, TZVI H
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS/VICE-PRESIDENT 12/12/04 $2,000 Harris, Katherine (R)
RUBASHKIN, TZVI HIRSCH
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS 3/24/04 $2,000 Specter, Arlen (R)
RUBASHKIN, TZVI HIRSCH
POSTVILLE,IA 52162 AGRIPROCESSORS 3/24/04 $2,000 Specter, Arlen (R)