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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 10:28 AM
Original message
Pirates seize Indian vessel, 13 crew off Somalia
Source: Associated Press

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia (AP) — A maritime official says armed pirates have hijacked an Indian cargo vessel with 13 crew members near Somalia.

Noel Choong of the International Maritime Bureau says the cargo-laden dhow was en route to Somalia from Asia when it was seized over the weekend.

He says the bureau only received a distress report on Monday and is still verifying the time and date of the attack. No further details were immediately available.

The hijacking pushed the number of attacks this year in the African waters to 74. A total of 30 ships have been hijacked.



Read more: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hEPVevgJ-rAmL9onqu8KHIwmXJTAD93UQ8R00
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. They need to start arming these cargo ships to the teeth. n/t
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TheCoxwain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. I ve worked in the merchant navy .. you are not allowed to carry arms
secondly ..what are you going to do? The guys are armed with fixed machine guns ... You cannot fight those weapons with rifles ..We are trained to operated the ship and transport cargo -- not fight pirates


Here is the bad news .. some of these militias are funded by ... Hold your breath ... hedge funds based out New York .. ( A friend of mine told me this -- she says there was a lot a money to be made very quickly , and hedge funds aren't required to disclose their investments) ... Basically there is a war for resources/control going on in Africa .. and these militias are well supported by people you dont expect in your wildest dreams..

How do you think these pirates are able acquire sophisticated weapons in Africa? They dont have basic amenities or food there ...


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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. Throw a couple of Ma Deuces on each side of the boat
and in times of imminent boarding, punch some holes in those pirates boats and see how enthusiastic they are about boarding the ships now. I know what direction I would turn my pirate boat in the face of some .50 BMG justice.
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louis-t Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
2. I don't understand this.
I am not a gun lover, but jeez, couple of Uzis and a well-placed hand grenade should stop any hijacking. Maybe the complicit government of that country is forbidding any armed guards on board.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Uzi, Hell, these Pirates carry PKs and RPGs
Edited on Tue Oct-21-08 05:50 PM by happyslug
The Soviet PK Machine gun is considered one of the best in the world. Designed by Kalashnikov himself (after he designed the AK) it fulfills all the designs specs for a General Purpose Machine Gun. An intersting study of the PK occured when the US Army looked into replacing the M-60 Machine Gun in the 1980s. In the test the Army did between the two contenders to replace the M-60, the Belgium FN MAG and the German G-3 (MG-42 of WWII Fame), the M-60 and the PK were used a "controls" for the test. The MAG and G-3 are the two machine guns used by US allies, both considered heads above the M-60 even when the M-60 was adopted and replaced the old Browning Machine Guns of WWII fame.

Anyway, in the shooting test, the MAG and the G-3 were operated over a period of days to fire millions of rounds of ammunition. For controlled purposes the Army also operated in the test the M-60 and a PK the US Army picked up. No one knows where the Army picked up the PK used in the test and obviously it was in used condition (The other three machine guns were brand new models). In the test the PK frame developed a crack in the frame, but it was determined it would NOT interfere with the operation of the Weapon, so it continued to be fired (and with the Crack finished the test without a hitch or the crack expanding). Unlike the M-60 the PK stayed up with the MAG and G-3. In the articles I read about the test, the testers were shock and surprised on how well the PK did the test (remember it was a USED machine gun, not brand new like the others). Reading between the lines you can almost see the testers believed the PK won the test, and should have been adopted, but the choice was between the MAG and the G-3, the PK was NOT in the race (The MAG ended up being adopted, on the ground both Canada and Britain were already using it, the G-3 were used by the West German Army, but the West Germans had a policy of NOT using their Troops outside Germany so the fact that the West German Army was the Largest NATO army in Western Europe could not convince the US to adopt the G-3 instead of the MAG).

More on the PK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKM


More on the RPG:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_propelled_grenade

I go into the above for the PK, being a ex-soviet design is built all over the world at the present time and shows up in almost every conflict. Unless you have people on board with Machine Guns to counter them, the crew with Rifles are sitting ducks. How many people are on these ships now a days? A dozen? It does not take many men to operate a ship on the high seas, in ports, port pilots and additional crew can be added (Generally in the form of Tug boars operators), Once in port, Crane operators unload the ships no the crew.

Example of Crew Size "11 Man crew freed";
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27186506/

Four Russians and Five Filipinos:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/05/29/somalia.pirates/index.html

Tanker has a crew of 20-30 men:
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/10/13/7069961-cp.html

22 man crew:
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5i3INe_F3v3lBGPlmRss0leNsOZVQ

Yacht have larger crews (22 men in this seized by Pirates):
http://en.rian.ru/world/20080708/113517837.html

Crew in a 1980 Ship that sunk was 42:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sunk-cargo-ships-crew-cleared-of-negligence-622681.html

22 man crew:
http://www.wtop.com/?nid=105&sid=1486470

20-30 sound like the bare mini mun. Remember you are looking at, at least an eight hour sleeping period (people with Merchant Marine Experience may know from experience if the practice on ship is different, but in general most people operate most effectively with eight hours sleep). Certain people MUST be up all the time (i.e. they must be at least TWO of them). Examples of this would be the Captain (and his First Mate), the Navigator (And his Assistant). Radar operator (And his Assistant). That is at least six people, just to run the bridge. The Engine Room needs someone operating it and making sure it stays operating (the days of the Stroker, shoveling coal into the engine, is long gone almost all of the ships today are Diesel Electrics). Thus in the engine compartment you looking at about four people or less (Two on duty at any one time). Given you need at least ten people on board, you have to have at least two cooks (Or a Cook and an Assistant). That comes to an even Twelve before we even look at anyone to actually take care of the Ship (Other then the Direction, done by the Bridge, or the Engine, done by the Engine Crew). Some of these can be done with less men (Two men to watch the engines, one at a time instead of the four men I mentioned), First mate and Navigator may be the same person. I have NO experience with Ships or their crew size, but the numbers given above 9-30 all seem possible.

Thus you have ten people WITHOUT even looking at how to take care of the Cargo (Which, given modern container ships you may NOT need, for there is not much the ship can do with the containers). Thus you can operate a modern ship with a crew of ten, but 20 looks like a much better number for that gives you ten deck hands to make sure the ship is stay free of sea water (Opening and closing various parts of the Ship as directed by the Captain). Even if we go with the higher number, 30, that is not even Platoon size, and given that the engine crew has to stay with the engine and the Bridge crew operating the Ship, even less men to fight off a dozen or two heavy armed men (You down to ten in a hurry once you realized certain people can NOT leave their station AND in a crisis you want their replacement near them to help them in the Crisis).

No, in the days of sail when you needed men to operate the sails, you had the men to fight off Pirates, but the main reason Steam (And later Diesels) replaced sail was both steam and diesels powered ships could operate with much smaller crews (The increase speed of Steam ships over sailing ships was minor when it came to Cargo Ships, both went no more then about 10 knots, modern Diesels do better, but not by much, passenger ships went MUCH Faster but at the increase use of fuel, which is why Aircraft replaced them by 1960).

Please note I am looking at Minimum crew numbers, hopefully most ships carry crews over 12, but people cost money and the less people on a ship, the cheaper it is to operate, thus it looks like a dozen men in most ships with non-containerized ships having more men (Tanker may have the most do to the need to shift the oil around from one part of the ship's haul to another so to balance out the ship under heavy seas, which can vary in direction depending on where the tanker is on its voyage.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. An explosion below the waterline near your ship's traditionally a bad thing (nt)
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MidwestTransplant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
3. They should start sending decoy ships armed with military and with air support at the ready.
Edited on Tue Oct-21-08 10:53 AM by MidwestTransplant
That would make for an interesting surprise.
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zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. great idea.
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
4. Why doesn't our shit for brains commander in chief.............
.........send a couple of destroyers to "cruise" the coast over there and actually do some fucking good for ONCE in his shitty, lowly, fucked up life.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. That would be my first reaction...
That would be my first reaction... and probably my second and third reactions as well.

During WW II, the U.S. and Great Britain mastered the art of escorting convoys. Seems with today's technology, a small seven or eight ship fleet of destroyers would be pretty effective at preventing some desperate buckaroos from commandeering a cargo ship.
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zelta gaisma Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. shit for brains commander in chief..
I think you answered your own question. BUT Have those countries involved asked for our help, was it our cargo or ships? If not then we really have no right sticking our nose in unless and until we are asked to.
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. I agree. But, if we are going to stick our noses into something......
........this would be better than Iraq or Iran. At least this would be accomplishing something positive with our militia ry.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. Some submarine patrols might make life interesting for the pirates, as well.
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OKthatsIT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-08 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
10. It wouldn't surprise me if it was NATO black ops are funding this
the 'chaos into order' theme applies here, too. Keeping the 3rd world from getting a foothold will gaurantee corporate theft. And, of course, it convinces the world that ORDER must be brought into the region. White man's order, of course.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Don't conflate NATO with Wall Street.
Although I will admit that NATO has been "run" for Wall Street's benefit
in the past, the power behind the pirates is purely financial here.
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. That sounds utterly retarded
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. That would be because it is (nt)
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Phoonzang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
17. Can't NATO find the pirate bases and send ground forces to put them out of commission?
Edited on Wed Oct-22-08 03:28 PM by Phoonzang
It wouldn't be invading a sovereign country because Somalia doesn't exactly count as one of those anymore.
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honestduel Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-22-08 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
19. Pirates are "in" this season
I thought those ceased to exist in the 18th century. What do you know!
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