Questions grow after Uzi death of child

Source: Boston Globe

The micro Uzi machine pistol placed in the hands of an 8-year-old at a Westfield gun club's pumpkin shoot last month is so hard to handle that it has earned a nickname among gun enthusiasts: the "Fifty-fifty."

"That means there is a fifty-fifty chance that you'll either kill whomever or whatever you're aiming it at or kill yourself," said Steve Traver, owner of D&S Gunworks, a firearms company in Hancock. "That machine gun should have never been at that shoot. It doesn't have a grip and has such a high rate of fire that even adults have a lot of difficulty controlling it. It's designed for highly-trained bodyguards, not children."

Yet 8-year-old Christopher Bizilj was handed the gun last month and, with an instructor by his side and his father standing behind him, was allowed to pull the trigger. The gun careened from his grip, and the boy shot himself in the head.

Beacon Hill lawmakers have now called for a Public Safety Committee oversight hearing Nov. 17 to craft legislation that would address the issues of who may discharge a firearm and the conditions for handling firearms.

Read more: http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/11/08/questions_grow_after_uzi_death_of_child/

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:shrug:

Darwin

This is just sad :(

The 8 year old hasn't.

is having young who themselves survive to breed.

is Darwin at work. The Dad being shot doesn't stop his genes, the kid being shot does.

to do whatever they please with a gun even though they don't belong to a militia.

that the 2A gives them the right to do whatever they please with a gun.

Thank you in advance.

This kids father should be in jail.

the weapon than the father did.

He should NEVER have allowed the child to touch the uzi, and should have told the father of just how dangerous such a situation was.

Not absolving the father. But it is possible he was ignorant of the weapon's reputation and of the strenghth and skill needed to operate it.

Also, the sponsors of the event should be held accountable for allowing the uzi to be in the program.

Presumingly the instructor was suppose to be the expert who would advise people about how the weapon handled. If the father and boy were determined to shoot something, the instructor should have advised an easier to handle gun as an alternative.

the "Pumpkin Shoot" With each new tragedy we all shake our heads and wonder about the
"reason" for the accident. Or the state of the killers mind. Yes, people kill people, but they
are A LOT less efficient at it. Every day in this gun-happy country 85 people are KILLED (plus many more wounded)
Doing the math that adds up to 30,000 a year. Thirty THOUSAND. Dead.
NRA and 2nd Amendment supporters I have a question: With ten times more victims EVERY year that were
killed on 9/11, can you really believe a "right to bear arms" keeps Americans safer??
Really?
Think about it, please.
Before your child, or mine, is killed in a gun "accident"

the father was stupid, the gun is a defective design but shut up. Just shut up. Bush and his fascists are not gone yet and they and their offspring will be back later so just shut up.

with second amendment rights at this point, might just be the mother.... Of course she may be as much a gun nut as the father, but if not, I can't say I'd blame her contemplating her husband as pumpkin target..... What an incredible tragedy.... And, no, I hope that tragedy ends here with some common sense legislation and policies regarding kids and access to these guns.

Here's some Japanese gun porn from YouTube which, about 30 seconds in, shows a trained firearms expert shooting the weapon. Notice the particular way they hold the gun and the death-grip they have to have in order to fire it safely.

  Whomever owns that gun- and the father- should have charges filed against them. That's like giving a live hand-grenade or a lit stick of dynamite to a kid and letting them throw it.

  I do support children being exposed to responsible firearms use but as a father with three sons this is simply insane. INSANE.

  Fucking full-auto? INSANE.

  There is a difference between taking your teenage son or daughter target shooting on BLM land plinking with a .22 rifle and handing an 8 year old a micro-uzi on full auto filled with 9mm rounds. I don't expect everyone will be able to see that.

  BTW, the father is apparently a doctor of some sort. :wtf:

PB

He is the medical director of the emergency department at Johnson Memorial Hospital in Stafford Springs, Conn.

I don't even know where to start....

  I know you're not but...

:wow:

PB

which would have made it even less controllable.

I wonder, from a military standpoint, how such a weapon is viable in the field!

there was a taped interview of another dad with his 10 year old son who were at the range at the time of the accident.

His kid shot that exact same gun the year earlier (when he was 9) and had no "problems".

The gun did have the stock attachment and when his kid shot it, he used the stock extension. No information on whether the kid shooting it this year used the stock extension.

The father ended by talking about what a shame it would be if there were age requirements, etc.

The whole interview was disturbing to me.

I grew up with guns, but I was 11 before my father let me shoot anything other than a BB gun. And then I was allowed to shoot a single shot .22 and only when he was there and only at targets. By the time I was 12 I was shooting a 16 gage shotgun when quail hunting (and no, we didn't do it "drive by" style like Cheney).

When I was 13, my best friend and neighbor (another 13 year old) was killed by going hunting with another friend of his. They were walking single file, guns loaded and, apparently, safety off... the other kid tripped and shot my friend in the head. I'll never forget his mom screaming at his funeral. Kinda took the "cool factor" off of hunting for me.

and I learned a healthy respect for firearms. Always with supervision. If you are going to have them in the house and have children, they need to be taught firearm safety.

No muzzle flip what so ever.

For most of us doing something stupid doesn't end up in the death of a child. However, I at aleast have done some stupid things.

and this was just irresponsible behavior on his part. I was definitely a mom who let her kids try all kinds of things, but this would not have been one of them.

Conn. boy, 8, mourned
Friday, October 31, 2008
By STEPHANIE BARRY
sbarry@repub.com
http://www.masslive.com/springfield/republican/index.ssf?/base/news-17/1225439151107500.xml&coll=1

Paw aint sound too broked up

No regrets. It should be a capital offense if they ever decide to breed again. They aren't fit to raise weeds. :puke:

I had a wartime Walther P-38 go full-auto on me. The last round went into the overhead right above me.
The mini-Uzi is closer to the size of an auto pistol and has little mass to absorb the recoil and resulting muzzle climb. I've fired a standard Uzi full auto and it's heavy enough to control with one hand.
The cyclic rate of a mini-Uzi is between 1000 and 1200 rounds per minute, twice that of the standard Uzi. This compunds the control problem.

I'd be willing to donate to his vasectomy fund.

WTF is up with letting an 8 year old handle ANY kind of weapon at a gun club "event"? I have no problem with a carefully designed "GUN SAFETY" program allowing children to handle weapons in a controlled environment, but a pumpkin shoot sounds more like a carnival balloon toss to me! That is just stupid beyond words.

How easy was it to pry the gun from his cold dead fingers?

Yes - I know, it is below the belt. You have to imagine me saying this in a very serious tone because I am not fucking laughing or making light of this. I firmly believe the mentality referred to there is the cause of this tragedy. So there you have it as Heston stated - with a black touch of irony.

There was the heading, of course. Then, in smaller print, "Call for new rules at gun shows".

WHAT????? How about "Call for new rules on all weapons"? Why are there micro Uzi's out there for public use at all, much less put in the hands of an eight year old, for sport, or any other reason.

The law on gun ownership must be changed. Obviously, the 'common sense' factor isn't present in those who purchase Uzi's, sub-machine guns, and AK-47's.

No, I'm not saying one shouldn't have the ability to legally own a gun.

However, certain weapons are for self defense and some belong in an arsenal, say, for military use.

That poor child. Dying, with the man he most trusted standing right behind him. Sad, just sad.

Its about basic standards of responsibility and common sense.

Holding a driver's license will confer you the right to drive, but for some reason people don't rail against drivers' licenses when some drunk kills an 8 year old.

It isn't the right that causes the problem, its the persistence of idiots.

If somebody let an 8 year old drive, resulting in the 8 year old death, methinks people might be complaining. If you need a license to drive, why exactly don't you need a license to be shooting at things?

If you don't like the car analogy we can use the analogy of yelling "fire!" in a crowded building.

My point is that the extreme behavior of yelling "fire!" in a theater doesn't negate the value of free speech rights.

I'm not opposed to reasonable regulation on fire arms - a shooters license would be fine with me, and in fact you already need a license to own certain firearms in some states ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state) ).

But I do get annoyed when someone does something mind numbingly stupid with a gun and all of a sudden people are up in arms about "the second amendment" as though its the cause of the problem.

Common sense would have been to let the kid shoot something more stable and easier to handle; like a tripod mounted belt fed (M-60, MG- 42, M-1919 or even a .50 cal M-2, etc).

If you violate gun laws, or comit a felony, THEN your rights are taken away.

That's how it works.

much like a gun. you only need the DL to drive in public, much like you need a CCW to carry a gun in public.

Also, driving is not a constitutionally protected right.

In my state, there are limitations to driving even on one's own property. One must have a valid permit, for instance, and DUI is illegal even on private property.

again, one is constitutionally protected, the other isn't

:eyes:

When a drunk driver kills some one, we do call for tougher laws against drunk driving.

There have been several regulations over the past forty plus years to make cars safer. In the sixties, seat belts became required. We got air bags, and then there was a push for smarter air bags that consider the size of the passenger. I could list a bunch of the safety features of the modern automobile, but I think you get the idea.

Very few people make the argument that we should ban all guns. We do however, push for regulations because there are always going to be idiots out there. If they only hurt themselves, that would be one thing, but sadly, these idiots often hurt others.

It's insane how easy some guns can be converted into automatic weapons... and they are made that way on purpose so gun nuts will by them and modify them.

It would be so easy for them to make guns safer, and stop producing crap like this Mini Uzi...

the law is the nfa. Regulate cheese. It can cause blood vessels to burst while you strain to take a dump.

More people die from that than NFA weapons.

due to the regulation that currently exists? Would you agree that it should be illegal for a child to use said weapons without proper training?

And there is already regulation on cheese. Think FDA.
http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2004/504_milk.html

these were high income people participating in a high income hobby. Same as a sport fishing tournament, more people die in those. Yachting kills plenty too.

It is highly disturbing it is the same as giving a kid a jug full of battery acid. It may not be directly illegal but there are legal consequences.

You cant regulate every facet of human stupidity. It is not illegal to put an 8 year old up an 80 foot mast either. It is stupid.

NFA selects out people who are more likely to commit crimes. We can do that for all guns but the outcome would be bad.

legally allowed to use a gun. And no one being allowed to use a gun until they can pass a test and have a license.

NFA machine guns not so much. I learned to safely operate a rifle before i was 16.

There is no reason that should be regulated.

Thankfully your idea has no chance of ever being implemented.

Did she agree with attending a gun shoot? Give permission? Or did they pretend to be going somewhere else?

The organizers of that shoot, the owner of that machine gun, the instructor, the father....all have that boy's blood on their hands.

The event should be closed for good. Too stupid, too lacking in judgement, to ever get a permit again for it.

I cannot imagine being on the receiving end of that phone call. Don't ever want to imagine that.

"Oh my god...I murdered my son!!!"


Because if he hasn't, he should.

Sympathy and all to his family for their loss, but this damned fool asshole will now suffer the rest of his life wishing he had taken his kid to the park to play that day instead of out shooting pumpkins with a deadly weapon. Or maybe he wouldn't stop to think at all.

Granted, the whole thing was an accident, but his bad decision has not only caused himself and his family untold grief, but it also fucked up the lives of other people....directly and indirectly.

Like the kid's teachers and friends and classmates

And the innocent bystanders who were there that day...especially the poor man who went over to try and help and who was crying as he recounted how little Christopher was covered in blood and saying over and over that he wanted to go home... and he told Christopher that everything would be OK.... this poor man will have to live with that image the rest of his life. If it were me in the same situation, I don't know if I could ever deal with the emotional trauma of seeing that firsthand.


And there is also the question of what would have happened if the kid had accidentally shot and killed someone other than himself....like his own father, for instance. What a thing for a kid to have to live with the rest of his life!!!

The man was a selfish asshole, as far as I'm concerned, and I hope at the very least he's found criminally negligent.

I wouldn't even give a kid that age a friggen BB gun, for crissakes....

:mad:

went sideways.

a whole lot of other people could have been killed that day

In which case, if the father hadn't been one of them, I would hope he would be arrested for being an accessory to manslaughter.

He directly contributed to the death of his own son by allowing his son to handle this weapon.

Clip in a second, and you would be pointing at the sky after that. No way that child could hang on to that gun.

that just loading it would cause it to go off. With out touching the trigger.

when it comes to accepting that a firearm has been destroyed.

Pretty much, you have to torch cut the reciever across at least 2 lines at an angle, preferably going through critical areas like where the fire control parts go and the barrel mounts in.

That it was taken out of circulation. The worn sear was a defect that could not be repaired and would always be dangerous. It was dismantled and tossed into the parts bin with the sear going in the trash. As I recall it was a Styer (sp?)from the 40s and even the parts left over weren't of much use. My only point in bringing it up was that a full grown man couldn't control a little 32 cal a child should have never had a 9mm in his hands, full auto firearms tend to climb when fired.

Latr

This is gross negligence on a grand scale. Next comes the cries from the Second Amendment nutz. Try to pass a regulation over this. They'll scream Obama's already started grabbing guns! He's infringing your childs right to shoot himself in the head with a Micro Uzi. Don't think for a second that the NRA won't fight for your childs right to shoot themselves in the head with a Micro Uzi. Some of those nutz think after serving a life sentence (25 years)for murder. Upon your release from prison you should receive 100.00, a new suite, and an assault rifle.

People do dumb things. However, the instructor, being the expert should be tried for manslaughter and the father should be an accessory.

year old came together. This is so sad. This eight year old is to young to be treated like a murderer. I hope caring sensitive people step in and help this child grieve this horrible action.

Newton's laws tell us that if two guns are firing the same bullets the larger gun will have less recoil NOT THE SMALLER ONE.


I'm sure the stupid and obviously science ignorant father thought "oh. My son has small hand so we will use the smaller UZI"


That choice killed the kid.


As stupid as it is to have a child this young fire ANY fully auto gun, this kid might still be alive if he had been firing a long barreled large heavy assault gun like a Heckler and Koch.

WTF?

of Machine Guns (MGs) and other things (Short Barreled Rifles/Shotguns (SBR, SBS), suppressors etc...)

The basics are, to be allowed to own one, you must submit a form with 2x set of fingerprints, signature from your CLEO, passport photo, citizenship proof and a $200 check

There is a 2-4 month wait which includes a background check, once you get the form back you can take possession of the gun, but it is fully registered in a database and cannot be moved across state line w/o permission.

In addition, laws in '68 and '86 made it illegal to import or assemble new MGs, so every legal MG is a grandfather of '86 and the result is a typical price tag of five figures for a legal MG.

Anything that can convert a semi into an MG is considered an MG and falls under the same laws.

Kansas was one of those states until July of this year, when Gov. Kathleen Sebelius (a Democrat) lifted the law against civilian ownership of full-auto.

That leaves California, Illinois, Delaware, New York, New Jersey, Iowa, Rhode Island, and a few others.

effectively there is a national 'may issue' when it comes to NFA.

If your police chief or sheriff won't sign, I think a judge can do it.

:)

you can count the deaths from legal NFA guns on ONE HAND. I believe the number is 3.

Now go ban lightning and straining while taking a dump. More people die from those two than legal NFA guns.

Better yet ban stupid. Stupid is the reason for this incident.

Suggesting there should be a regulation which forbid an 8 year old from firing an automatic weapon is basically the same as suggesting all microwaves should be banned. No difference whatsoever.
:sarcasm:

or blasting cap, det cord, and RDX? cant regulate every form of stupidity.

This is covered under existing law and requires no more law.

The child is dead. So far no one has been charged with anything. So, what existing law covers this?

cant regulate every stupid thing people do. Any number of manslaughter, murder charges work.

Just like fuckers who get drunk and kill people with their cars.

You guys love to chase the guns but never discuss a fix for root cause in 90% of violent crimes.

And you can attribute the low number of deaths in which NFA weapons are involved to the fact that---contrary to what the gun militancy movement preaches---gun control works.....

by setting the price point out of the range of people who commit the majority of crimes in the US this is the result.

You could replicate it by setting an income cap on firearm ownership, say . That is what the NFA does, entry price is 5 grand for a shit weapon. 20 grand for a colt m4. That weapon costs about 600 to make.

See how popular that becomes and how fast we loose control.

Fix the problems in communities that have massive crime problems. Then fix mental health. That covers 90%. The rest you will never stop. Those are the poeple who kill with sarin in the subway in japan and gas themselves with laundry detergent.

Reality check time.

There have to be a million+ things equally as stupid and deadly as this. Do we really need another law on the books? I would think there are plenty of laws broken already. Negligence resulting in a fatality, a felony I think.

Anyone think the gun lobby has too much power in this country?

unit but it is really stupid. And there are legal ramifications if you kill your kid doing so. Not against the law for them to stand in front of a metal lathe, handle pool chemicals, or sit on your lap on a riding mower.

All more real threats than NFA weapons.

Laws exist to cover this problem.

shotting himself in the head?

but when they loose their hand or life they are just as dead. People kill themselves and their kids doing dumb shit with all types of instruments. You cant enumerate every single thing possible.

Just charge them with existing statutes.

Thank God jurys against drunk driving don't use the same logic.

The issue is that they should be able to be charged under the existing law.
There are plenty of people who teach their children to handle firearms in a safe and responsible manner. Just like their are many who teach their children to use the lawnmower in a safe and responsible manner.
Teaching either in an unsafe manner should be covered under the same reckless endangerment (etc.) laws. We simply can not write a law for every single stupid thing someone might do.