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Newsjock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 10:46 PM
Original message
Prisoners have no right to hot meals, appeal court says
Source: San Francisco Chronicle

San Francisco -- State prison rules say inmates are entitled to two hot meals a day - but it's up to prison officials to decide how hot is hot enough, a state appeals court ruled Tuesday.

Observing that prisoners have no right to be served food at "the most aesthetically pleasing temperature," the First District Court of Appeal in San Francisco overturned a judge's ruling that would have required Pelican Bay State Prison in Del Norte County to turn up the heat on meals to inmates in the security housing unit.

... Prison officials replied that their only obligation was to serve meals that were cooked and "not cold." But Superior Court Judge Philip Schafer said the regulation required "a temperature acceptable to most consumers" and told officials to come up with procedures to make sure food was reasonably hot when it reached the inmates.

That's beyond a judge's authority, the appeals court said Tuesday. The court said inmates have a right to "proper nourishment while in custody" but have no right to enforce the department's regulations.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/25/BA8914CBHP.DTL&tsp=1
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Poor friggin' babies want to be spoon fed TOO?
Stale bread and warm water for them all! This kind of crap makes it into a courtroom...pathetic!
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. My Ruthug friend doesn't think the Red Cross should serve hot meals either.
I am beginning to see a theme here.
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. 'warm' is close enough to 'hot'.
By the time I prepare a meal, when I finally get to eat it, it certainly isn't 'hot' and some times barely warm. If an individual doesn't support coddling prisoners, the inference is he/she is a rethug or rethug like?
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jrockford Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. It isn't "coddling" prisoners, but yeah your impassionate attitude
toward human life and dignity makes you rethug like.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #10
66. So not serving criminals three hot meals a day is stripping them of their dignity?
Please tell me you are kidding.

David
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jrockford Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #66
68. No, but saying they deserve just bread and water is. Which is in what that was a response too. nt
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. Just making sure.
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VeraAgnes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #10
80. Wake Up......
Go look at the meals out elderly recieve in the nursing home and then...........talk to me about greedy impassionate attitudes.
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jrockford Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #80
82. I don't recall saying nursing home care is passionate and selfless either. huh. nt
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #80
163. Hi there, posting from work!
In the kitchen of a nursing home. I'm doing diet aide tonight (prep and cleaning) but i also do a fair mount of cooking on the schedule.

Tonight's dinner menu was baked ham and pineapple served with steamed spinach and scalloped potatos. The soup was beef with barkey, and for those who weren't in a ham mood, we had tuna salad paltters available.

Last night we did thanksgiving dinner early - whipped out several breasts of turkey, a ham, two pans of stuffing, two pans of sweet potatoes, green bean cassarole, and a nice selection of hors d'ourves and drinks (stock juices and crystal light, but also hot cider, red and white wine, herbal teas)

When I cook Saturday, I'll be making french onion soup - scratch, we don't use that lipton pre-made powder here - sserved with chicken parmesian and, well, spinach again.

We bust our butts here. Unfortunately the products we use might not be top shelf stuff (limited budgets and all) and there's really no good way to dress up the puree for those who need it, but we're hardly "greedy" or "impassionate". I'm aware I'm not speaking for every elder care facility out there - my own grandmother ended up in a pretty bad one untill we brought her back home - but I just wanted you to be aware we're certainly not all in that mold :)
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amdezurik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. the issue is responsibility
if, as we do, take responsibility upon ourselves to enforce some laws on some people (mostly the poor and minorities) then either you take the responsibility of treating them humanely or admit you are a thug of the same kind who ran Saddam and dumbaya's torture rooms.
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #7
91. No it has to do with an underlying respect for all humans.
Leave the judging to the judge is all.
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zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #7
100. You seem very cruel. Prisoners are people. But besides that, warm food induces both a
sense of well being and actual health (scientifically proven), which probably makes caring for inmates easier and cheaper. So at the risk of coddling, it probably makes economic sense to serve prisoners food that is hot enough.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
205. When the food that is prepared "hot" and is "luke warm" or cold
when served, the risk of spoilage rises and the likelihood of the meal causing illness increased.

It is more cost efficient to serve the hot meal than to deal with the medical expenses and sanitation requirements caused by an outbreak of food poisoning at a prison.

Common sense should dictate but guess it gives way to "make the bastards pay" - problem is, unhealthy and disgruntled inmate populations make the prison staff's job harder and more expensive.

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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Your post leads me to believe one of three things.
One, you have never broken a law. Never used pot, never slept with a 17 year old when you were 18, never drove after a couple of beers... Any of those things could have landed you in prison so that leads to...

Two, you have broken laws but feel you're only entitled to stale bread and warm water as well.

Or three, you're one of those people who loves to pass judgments on others without knowing or understanding all the facts in the situation.

I know which number I'd circle if I had to guess.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Amazing how the LOVE flows around here
I'd guess dude falls into category One

The Guy who never got caught with the roach.
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jrockford Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Well said.
The "pathetic" comment was truly revealing, quite sick if you ask me.
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. I'm a recent repeat offender of cell phone use while driving, failure to wear a seatbelt while......
driving and a left rear brake light failure while driving. Should these heinous crimes land me in jail, 'warm' food will be OK with me; I'll be very thankful even if it isn't a few degrees 'hotter'. It is more than pathetic that issues such as this make it into a court of any kind. Stale bread with warm water to dunk it in, works for me.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. What's pathetic is that it had to be taken to court in the first place.
Even prisoners are entitled to a little basic dignity. Not to mention, health regulations that apply to prison food as much as restaurant food. It has to be served above a healthy temperature.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #22
67. What are the temperature regulations for a bologna sandwich?
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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #67
94. The same as for any food consumed by humans:
"The danger zone: 41º F - 140º F. Potentially hazardous foods exposed to this temperature range for a cumulative total of more than 4 hours are not safe to eat."

Look it up: Critical Temperatures for Food Service

:)
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #94
113. I doubt it takes four hours for the food to get from the kitchen to the cells
I'm with the folks who wondered how this ever got into a courtroom.
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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #113
117. Notice the word "cumulative".
If the food is not properly stored or is held at the wrong temps, re-refrigerated, held at the wrong temps again and so on, then once you reach that four-hour mark, that's it; you toss the food out, or take the chance of it being contaminated with the toxins the bacteria make. And thus, why it's unsafe ;)
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Chan790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #113
188. It doesn't but...
Edited on Thu Nov-27-08 11:16 AM by Chan790
that is scientific-data on the range within which food is unsafe to eat after four hours...the law tends to be more stringent with safeguards built in.

I can't say for certain about other locales, but for example here in CT I am required to use a thermometer whenever I steam milk at work and unless a customer requests that it be cooler I am required to steam it to a minimum temperature of 165'F before serving and have to dispose of it as soon as it falls below 145'F. (Literally...if the steamed pitcher is sitting on the counter and the inspector sticks a temp. probe in it and it reads 139'F, I'm going to be fined even if I hadn't served it nor intended to. This is why pitchers of milk steamed for "kids" hot chocolate (served at 120'F) go directly from the cup to the sink...we're advised to not set them down.) Why all the fuss? Because Ms. Tracy the health inspector is a hardass and I feel better eating at the Denny's next door and the Taco Bell one door further down because of it.

If the food is merely warm and not hot (I'm going to assume warm means about 120'F as that is the top of the temperature range that food has a mouth-feel approximating slightly-above-ambient temperature in most people), the odds are that unless the time from cooking to service is more than 20 minutes (even in a facility of 5000 people this would represent a serious failure to have an effective delivery mechanism) it has never been heated to a degree as to meet health code regulations in the first place.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. If stale bread and warm water works for you then feel free to eat it.
However, when anyone, regardless of situation, lands in the custody of the state or fed, they should be provided basic, nourishing sustenance that includes hot, not 'warm', meals. This is what is supposed to separate us from those who do not value human life.

If you don't agree with that, its certainly your right. I guess everybody needs to hate someone. :shrug:
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. I'll bet no one died from 'it' and no one even got sick either.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. So your mindset is we should wait till someone does die. Gotcha.
We just place a different value on human life. I respect it and you don't.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #32
97. a recent report stated that 1 out of every 100 people has sociopathic tendancies...
which also equates to lack of empathy. I think we may be witnessing a winner.
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snake in the grass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #31
58. That's the same reasoning...
...the Bush administration used to justify torture. You are aware of that, aren't you?
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #31
155. From food poisoning?
You're serious?

Well, fuck me. Right in the ear.
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Piewhacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #31
175. You are mistaken.
People are dying in custody due to lack of proper nutrition and medical care.
The matter is so bad the california prison system is under a court reciever
(Kelso http://web.pacific.edu/x21193.xml)

The criminal justice system is broken. The prison system is broken.
We know its all broken, we know why, and that's partly what we here on
DU are trying to fix.

No one is "coddling" prisoners anywhere. Certainly not in Pelican Bay.
Spend a week in that hellhole, you'll sing a different tune, assuming
you last that long. You might not. Dead serious.

Double T, this is not a matter to blow hard on. There are serious problems
and serious people trying to address them in difficult circumstances.
Please remember that the trial judge ruled in favor of the prisoners, and
believe me its gotta be bad for that to happen. Although a higher court
thought otherwise, the problem isn't going away, its got to be worked out.



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VeraAgnes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #16
106. You can just bond-out.
Or, stop using the cell phone while driving. It can be done.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
90. Or you are a CINO, Christian In Name Only. nm
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VeraAgnes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #90
112. no I am not.
I'm not even christian in name or practice yet I recognize jesus as a fine man.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
114. We're talking prison, not jail
Pelican Bay State Prison is a California State Prison that houses some of California's most dangerous inmates.

The prison is a "supermax" facility located in the northwestern part of the state near Crescent City, Del Norte County, on 275 acres (1.1 km²).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelican_Bay_State_Prison
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #114
134. They're still human beings.
Most are guilty of crimes, some are innocent of them. Many can be rehabilitated, many cannot. That is the nature of life, but it's still life. The reasoning for treating these prisoners inhumanely is built on the same premise as bush* used when ordering the torture of prisoners at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib. It is the belief that some life is worth less than other life and that leads down a path I don't care to take.
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MontyZuma Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
182. Thank You.
Anyone who thinks that prisoners are coddled or have it easy deserves to go to prison.
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Supply Side Jesus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
196. If you are in Pelican Bay
You Done FUCKED UP BIG TIME.

Pelican Bay ain't no joke, that's hard core max shit.

we're talking violent offenders.

BUT, for the sake of peace and keeping the natives from getting restless.. It's cheaper to give hot meals, than paying for riot suppression, death benefits for dead guards and lawsuits by all involved.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
29. Amnesty International has had to campaign for the abuse of people in our prision systems

Humane treatment shows a nation's civility and ethics.

And, considering the true criminals dine on quail and caviar while the low level drug criminals fill our prisons to bursting, you might have a little broader consideration for the people who are caught in that system....

Imprisoning poor people is an industry in this nation. I, for one, want every human being treated humanely. Because the more we do it, the better it is for ALL of us.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #29
56. Yeah, thanks to heartless pricks like the guy above.
NT!

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JDwho Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #29
146. Well said!!! It freaks me out that any one would agree with inhumane treatment.
Isn't that what we rally against?

Did anyone see the wrongly convicted man on the news last night? DNA cleared him, after he spent 20 years in prison for rape and murder. I'd like to hear his take on the prison system...

There is someone I hold very dear to me, who spent 5 years in prison; trust me, it wasn't the meals that scarred him.

I think providing hot food is fair and humane. To deny something so basic would be wrong.
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
161. Agreed, debbierlus. Well said. n/t
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
46. My oh my, I have republican friends with more compassion than you. nm
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 12:28 AM by rhett o rick
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VeraAgnes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #46
105. I am with the OP on this.
Inmates are losers, a burden on our society and vicious, manlipulative sociopaths for the most part. Narcocistic also comes to mind. Very few have promise.....let's serve our elderly who are not criminal offenders.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #105
109. We have more people in prison than anywhere else in the world. The majority of prisoners are in for
drug related crimes. It is so easy for you to rationalize (Rationalization is the key to happiness) that they are no longer human because they are in prison but they are still humans. And treating them badly is not going to help anything.

And treating them as humans has nothing to do with how we treat our seniors.

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VeraAgnes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #109
111. They have it nice............I find their care amazingly humane as well.
They really need nothing more....they are not movie stars, well most are not anyways.
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Shardik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #111
159. I'm guessing you have never done time. Or are you speaking from experience?
Try this for dinner tonight. A slice of bologna that has turned green, two slices of moldy white bread and an eight ounce cup of koolaid.

That's what they're feeding the 18 year old who got caught with a half pound of pot as well as the people guilty of violent crimes.
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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #105
110. If even one has promise, then it's worth the time and effort
:)

And why does this issue have to be an "either/or" kind of thing with some other pressing issue, such as our elderly? Why can't we do both? We have the trillions to just hand over to the crooks at the top, yet can't even come up with millions for those we need to care about, be they prisoners, elderly and so on...
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #105
128. I'll Let my Brother Know That
and when he gets out of prison, hopefully he can aspire to being as humanitarian as you. After all... he's "just a loser".
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #105
164. Let me guess
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 09:52 PM by Chulanowa
You're one of those that think the state would save a lot of money if every conviction resulted in the convicted being taken out behind the courthouse and then shot in the head, right?

Yes, most of them are grade-A assholes. This does not entitle anyone to treat them worse than most unwanted animals are treated. It's called the justice system, not the revenge system. Learn the difference.
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MontyZuma Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #105
181. I'm sure you know all about viciousness VeraAgnes
You know, nursing homes and restaurants are one of the few places where its easy for ex-cons to get employment. What goes around comes around...
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
54. So all those nonviolent drug offenders who never harmed others - fuck them too?
I see that your heart has not as yet grown, Grinchy.


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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
73. Clever retort, very clever. PART OF ANY PRISON IS MEANT TO
REHABILITATE THE OFFENDER! There are few humans who respond in any favorable way to treatment like you seem to think is acceptable. And in the today's climate any one of us can end up being incarcerated for even just standing up for our rights.

I'm just wondering, do you recommend that type of treatment? Do you know who make up the bulk of the prison population in this country?

Or were you just trying to be cute and failed miserably?

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VeraAgnes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
78. They can use a microwave, get commissary etc...
Plus, they are getting meals three times a day. Have you ever paid any attention to the meals out elderly get in most nursing homes. The prisoners get the better deal every time. Sad is it not?
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jrockford Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #78
83. Again, one has nothing to do with the other...two separate problems.
Proper food prep isn't at the expense of proper nursing home care...
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VeraAgnes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #83
95. Are you an inmate lover?
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 10:55 AM by VeraAgnes
I'm not.......
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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #95
99. I challenge you to listen to the following show, and not get choked up:
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 11:06 AM by kentauros
The Prison Show

Airs on Friday nights at 9pm CST
It's well worth your time :)
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VeraAgnes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #99
102. I'm very sure I would not choke-up over an inmate.
I might listen for the fun of it.
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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #102
107. I guess it takes a heart to care for your fellow human beings, no matter what their circumstances.
Sorry, my bad.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #95
131. "inmate lover"
"Jew lover"
"nigger lover"
"fag lover"

See how easy it is to hate other people? All you have to do to hate them is relegate them all to a single demonized class, and then strip them of their humanity.

Simple.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #95
133. "inmate lover"? Interesting choice of words there.
Considering how the phrase "****** lover" is generally used and then thinking about the majority population of prisons.....

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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #78
87. I challenge you to make a visit to your local county lock-up and then
come back and tell us how luxurious it is again.


Poor treatment of patients in a nursing home justifies poor treatment of prisoners? How does that work?
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VeraAgnes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #87
96. Inmates are assholes.
We the taxpayer support their detox, feed, cloth and shelter them and give complete health care to them when most here on DU can't get health insurance.

Fuck Inmates.
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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #96
101. The alternative is that not attempting to rehabilitate, such that
when they are released, the do not fit back into society and go back to their criminal ways. Rehabilitation at least gives them the incentive to be law-abiding, productive and successful members of society. You sound like you want more crime than less
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VeraAgnes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #101
103. There is not enough money, personnel or time to fix them.
They are lost souls. I'd say put the money/time into our youth and families to prevent the criminal socialization.
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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #103
108. If there's enough money to bail out those criminals at the top
(i.e., the non-incarcerated white-collar "criminals") like AIG, Citicorp, et al, then there's more than enough to attempt to rehabilitate those "lost souls". At the very least, we can psychologically study the true lost-causes and learn how to prevent such behavior in the future.

Or is that a waste of time and money, too? Should we just close down all the psych-wards while we're at it because some are just not curable?
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #103
135. There's definitely a lost soul in all of this.
But I'd suggest that it lies in the person with no pity or compassion. That person is not necessarily behind bars right now. They might even be typing at a keyboard.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #101
127. you have to admit a large percentage enjoys the criminal lifestyle.
many of them think working people are fools and are there for the taking.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #127
137. I think you've watch "Bonnie & Clyde" too many times.
The vast majority of criminals are so because of the lack of money or security. When you have no money and no way to earn it, you take it. When you live in a place where gangs rule the streets you join.

It's both heartless and cruel to spread fallacies about people whom you know nothing about.
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RattusRattus Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #96
132. Logically
You're right, we spend a lot of money on inmates. How is fucking them going to fix the problem? They need to be able to be productive members of society. Prison does not provide this for them. A better solution needs to be found, one that's not standing on a soapbox judging people for having made a mistake. There are people in prison who certainly belong there, but a lot of them are just normal people who have chosen the wrong path. I'm sure there are men and women who would be brilliant scientists rotting away in cells.

The fact of the matter is, you know nothing about these people, or their lives. How do you know you wouldn't behave the same way in the same circumstances? Ask 100 people whether they would have gone along with the Nazi regime in Germany, and maybe a few would answer yes or maybe, due to the fact that they're realistic or they don't like Jews. We know this isn't true though, if that many people had protested the actions of the Nazis, their crimes wouldn't have happened. So, what now, fuck the Germans?
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JDwho Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #96
147. Does that include Guantanamo inmates? Or just all others...jeez
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LeftofU Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #96
162. Prison guards are much worse....
They take taxpayer money and supply drugs and weapons to inmates.
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MontyZuma Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #96
179. Hey, what goes around comes around.
Listen you stupid bitch, nobody asked for your fucking detox program.

But as long as you insist on spending $46,000 a year per inmate, trying
to force people to stay sober, the least you can do is serve them hot meals.

Let's see how many days of wet sandwiches and room temperature slop
before you're ready to stab some punk bitch in the neck for saying
what you just did.

By the way, there is no "health insurance" in prison. In one 200-man
dorm I saw two people die of medical neglect in one 6-month period.
There are no microwaves in prison, no gymnasiums, no clean anything.

This may come as a shock to you, but you don't actually have to commit
a crime to go to prison anymore. Check out the gang and conspiracy laws.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #78
116. He certainly wasn't coddled...
My dad didn't have the "better deal" when he did five years state time and seven years of federal time (both in TX). He certainly wasn't coddled, nor did he get three meals a day.

Now... of course I could tell you some of the stories about what he did endure-- but I doubt you'd really want to hear about that level of ugliness and violence this close to the holidays.

There's a pretty wide-spread myth out there in TV Land that prisoners have a swell time, but that's all it is-- a myth...
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #78
153. You obviously know nothing about
nursing home food preparation/serving procedures. They are far more regulated and patrolled than restaurants in every state I am aware of. I guarantee that if you walk into nearly any nursing home at lunch time you will find thermometers sticking out of every pan of food being served and food delivered to rooms in warming carts or held in proofers. If food was not held and served at safe temps in a nursing home many could die from food borne bacteria. It does happen but it is exceedingly rare and usually due to contamination of uncooked cold foods prior to arrival at the facility such as produce.

That said I would guess that prisoner food is held in proofers until they are transferred to unheated carts for delivery. My state has adopted a different range than was posted above. The danger zone here is between 41 degrees and 130 with holding temp 135 or above. If these meals were routinely allowed to linger in the 'danger zone' for over 4 hours there would absolutely be food poisoning issues at the prison which were not mentioned. It is very difficult to maintain 135 from the time the food leaves a kitchen for a half hour to an hour without compromising food quality because the starting temp would necessarily have to be too high. When is the last time your airplane meal was served piping hot?

BTW I am a food service manager in a retirement community associated with a nursing facility.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
129. Wow...Adopt a pet but FUCK the humans? Nice priorities pal...
...not ALL people in jail are bad guys...The real criminals never go to jail anyway...

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Truth Teller Donating Member (479 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
209. Bread and water will not sustain them well
It wouldn't provide proper nutrition.

Can we at least agree they're entitled to that, this being a progressive community and all?
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Fed_Up_Grammy Donating Member (923 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. I can't even remember when I had 2 hot meals a day.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Is that by choice or necessity?
n/t
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Fed_Up_Grammy Donating Member (923 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. By choice. I assume most folks have a quick,cold breakfast or
toast, and a sandwich for lunch.

Maybe I'm wrong.
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jrockford Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. I think you missed the point...
You have the option of choosing whether your meal is cold or hot or whatever. That isn't extended to prisoners.
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Fed_Up_Grammy Donating Member (923 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Why on earth would that choice even be necessary?
All nourishing food isn't necessarily hot and all hot food isn't necessarily nourishing.

Much ado about nothing.
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amdezurik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. and when the Innocence Project
frees one or more of them will you just shrug your shoulders and mumble "sucks to be you, loser" as you shuffle away? Or maybe "get a job"?
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Fed_Up_Grammy Donating Member (923 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Where on earth did THAT come from? We were talking about
Edited on Tue Nov-25-08 11:28 PM by Fed_Up_Grammy
food.

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amdezurik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #21
122. no we are talking about treating prisoners humanely
and cold clotted and or spoiled "food" shoved through slots does not equal humane to me...does it have to be formal dinners? hell no, just food you would find acceptible.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. Would you want to eat cold 'mystery meat'?
These prisoners aren't given access to a buffet line then allowed to choose the cold cereal or the hot fajita station. They're given a set portion of the daily meal on a plate and nothing more. When a meal that is supposed to be hot is instead cold it usually means that it has either been improperly prepared or left to sit and gather bacteria.

Our penal system was designed to rehabilitate prisoners, not poison them. It's a sad indictment on our society when even the 'bleeding heart liberals' think nothing of human life and dignity.
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Maine-ah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #27
38. thankyou last1standing!
That is exactly what I was thinking as I was reading through the replies to this thread. Food does have to be held at a certain temperature or it does start growing bacteria. This could make prisoners ill. It's probably cheaper to serve the food properly, than to have to send prisoners off the doctor when they get ill from improperly handled food.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. You assume they would bother to send them to the medical clinic.
Remember, many of the guards at Abu Ghraib were prison guards here in the U.S. There's a long history of inhumane treatment toward prisoners in this country. That is why petty criminals tend to come out as hardened ones.
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #38
75. 165 degrees.
I had to take a food handler's test here in WA. Health codes.
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Shoelace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #38
171. they don't get good medical care when they get sick, at least not in FL.
I've got a friend who is serving time for a white collar crime. She's sick - they give her an aspirin. She's hungry, her friend sends her 50 bucks a month to buy extras like an apple or such because the food served is for dogs.
No air conditioning, no heat - takes what you get.
She's got multiple health problems, going blind and never sees a doctor for anything. Privatized prisons are a "for profit" racket. See link for details:

http://www.alternet.org/story/17392/?page=entire
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
115. The ambient air temperature there is often 50 degrees or colder
Food gets cold there FAST.
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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #115
118. And, according to Food Safety personnel
and their regulations/information, harmful bacteria can still grow at temps between 41F and 50F, thus the "danger zone" of 41F to 140F. Talk to a food-safety inspector (or a chef) sometime about why this is so important.
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jrockford Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #15
36. Yeah you did miss the point..
This isn't food that is traditionally served cold. Ok? They aren't complaining they are getting nourishing food that is suppose to be served cold...

It hardly is much ado about nothing. Reading your last 3 posts was like listening to Bill-O make a point...frustrating.

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WillParkinson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. Not extended to prisoners....
Unless they're homeless or something they did have a choice....Don't go to prison.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. You should look at prison statistics sometime.
If you're willing to make an exception for the homeless, it might open your heart a little more to accept others left on the fringe of society.

Maybe not. :shrug:
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #26
76. Health codes encompass all public venues.
Hot food not served at proper temp is dangerous and illegal. I don't care who you are.
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Dirigo Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Let 'em eat cake
Our servicemen and women eat slop in Baghdad served up by the most unpatriotic corporation in the U.S. - Halliburton and Halliburton even overcharges the poor soldier or marine. They eat rations in foxholes out in the desert and we have prisoners in Pelican Bay complaining about lunch which they don't even pay for but deserve nothing more than bread and water. I think they should eat what they're served and they should be grateful they got that. Prison isn't supposed to be some culinary experience to educate the palate by dregs of society, social misfits, murderers, and the like.
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jrockford Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #12
40. Typical conservative thinking - wow, haha our servicemen blah blah blah
Hope you end up in prison one day. Oh wait, was that vindictive and unbecoming sounding? Funny how that works...

A culinary experience isn't asking that your rations be properly prepared. What an extreme and stupid way to look at things.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #12
47. Curious, are you a Christian?? You sound like a republican. No offense. nm
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #47
57. Sounds like a lot of christians, too.
NT!

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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #57
104. which is unsurprising,
given that the vast majority of Republicans are also Christians. Bet the guy you're responding to would beg to differ, though.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #12
60. That's not the issue. The issue is whether the prison management
is obeying the rules. If the Bush administration does not care enough about our soldiers to similarly set standards for the food served to them in Iraq and then require the contractors who prepare the soldier's food to comply with those standards, that is scandalous. Both the soldiers and the prisoners are entitled to decent treatment. If the regulation is too generous to the prisoners, it should be changed. The appellate court is out of line here. The lower court was interpreting the regulations in the most reasonable fashion. It is not the job of the courts to write the regulations. It's the job of the court to interpret them. The appellate court, not the lower court, was rewriting the regulation.
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
77. Whoa
Get salmnonella and have a good day, mate.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
148. Did you take a wrong turn at Albuquerque?
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 05:22 PM by Jamastiene
That screed makes Bush seem downright compassionate in comparison. As antisocial as I am toward people, even I have enough compassion to think they should get a hot meal and not bacteria laden slop.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
28. Having the ability to choose what you'd like to eat each day is nice, isn't it?
I once had to live on $0.68/day for a couple of months. It didn't leave me much room for choices but it did give me an appreciation for what the life of those who never had a choice is like.

Prison is filled with those who never really had a choice of whether to have a cold bowl of cereal or a hot bowl of oatmeal.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
13. Why would the food have to be hot or cooked?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_foodism

Raw foodism (or rawism) is a lifestyle promoting the consumption of un-cooked, un-processed, and often organic foods as a large percentage of the diet. If 60-100% of a person's total food consumption is raw food, he/she is considered a raw foodist or living foodist.<1><2> Raw foodists typically believe that the greater the percentage of raw food in the diet, the greater the health benefits. Raw foodism or a raw food diet is usually equated with raw veganism in which only raw plant foods are eaten,<3> but other raw foodists emphasize raw meat and other raw animal products.<4> Depending on the type of lifestyle and results desired, raw food diets may include a selectıon of raw fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds (including sprouted whole grains such as gaba rice), eggs, fish (such as sashimi), meat (such as carpaccio), and non-pasteurized/non-homogenized dairy products (such as raw milk, raw cheese and raw yogurt). Raw foodists can be divided between those that advocate raw vegetarianism or raw veganism, those that advocate a raw omnivorous diet, and those that advocate a diet of only raw animal foods (carnivorous).

Adherents of raw foodism believe that consumption of uncooked foods encourages weight loss and prevents and/or heals many forms of sickness and chronic diseases.<5> Some medical studies have indicated that different forms of raw food diets may lead to various health problems, while other studies have shown positive health outcomes with such diets.
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Doremus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Interesting. I read an article recently that said human's brains evolved
more than other mammals in part because early man began cooking his food.

Less calories spent digesting = more calories for brain development


Not that I'm inferring anything about adherents of raw foodism, but I thought that was interesting.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Possibly true, but
I think that you can get a lot of calories from raw foods like crustaceans, mollusks, fish, eggs, fruits, nuts and berries.

Cooking allows access to more meat from birds and mammals. Cooking of starchy grains is a pretty late development.
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ngant17 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #17
65. What about the Aquatic Ape Theory (AAT)?
There is the theory that human brains increased due to aquatic origins, a dependence on Omega-3 fatty acids and iodine for the development of large, complex brains. These chemicals would not be readily available to a terrestrial ape, but would be abundant in a seafood diet.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
61. That's not what the court was deciding. Whether the hot food
requirement was right or wrong was not up to the court. The lower court is correct in this case because it was interpreting the regulation, the language in the regulation, as the language would be understood in our everyday, ordinary lives. Whether the regulation is fair or appropriate or unreasonable is not up to the court. The court is just there to interpret regulations and laws made by others. The appellate court overreached here. The appellate court was trying to legislate, and that is not what courts are supposed to do.

Personally, if it were up to me, I would prefer a regulation that required one hot meal per day and that required that one hot meal to be hot, not sort of lukewarm after sitting 20 minutes or so. But, I will not be asked for input on the regulation. There are regulatory agencies that write the regulations. California also has a legislature that passes laws that govern the regulators and guide them in their work.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #61
119. I don't know if this is EXACTLY how it's done there
but I would imagine that they make a tray for each prisoner in the kitchen, load the trays up on a cart, then take the cart to the cells.

I'm not sure how you could get around having it sit for 20 minutes or so. :shrug:
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kentauros Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #119
124. Have you ever worked in a big kitchen before?
I mean like a hotel or where you had to do catering for hundreds of people? I have. You can't just plate-up several hundred trays of food in 20 minutes or less. You have to use these warming cabinets that allow you to put the racks of trays in them for all the food that must be kept hot.

As we are talking about prisons, institutions that are often privately operated and where the "customers" aren't going to be suing you for serving them food that is no longer hot and well into the danger zone, then that "20 minutes" is far more than that and can easily get into the four-hour limit. We know about the corruption that has become of these private prisons. Why would they spend that much more energy on warming cabinets if they can get away with not doing so? I am surprised this issue made it to a court; that a prisoner was able to take on the private prison company at all.

Then again, I've never heard of prisoners being "served" their food in their cells. Isn't that a security violation? When you have prisoners fashioning weapons out of plastic knives and making other ingenius inventions, don't you think they'll be all eating in a commons area?
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #119
169. Hot plates under the trays or warming cushions around the trays.
They could simply put the prisoner's plates in bags that keep them warm. People who attend a lot of pot luck dinners use bags of that kind to transport their food from home to, let's say, their church.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #169
170. One thing to remember:
all the carts have to go through security.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #119
195. They manage it in hospitals.
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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
14. Good
We shouldn't have to give into every needy request of prisoners.
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pocoloco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. Don't go visit 'em either?


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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
19. MISLEADING HEADLINE,
intends to inflame the discussion.
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FirstLight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
33. Bwaahahahaa!
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 12:06 AM by Journalgrrl
I am thinking of my ex husband, who is now in San Quentin...and his biggest pet peeve and obsessive thing was our food should be really HOT. He used to yell at my son to eat when it was burning his tongue!

so the idea of him having to eat LUKEWARM food...is like icing on the cake of his incarceration! :rofl:


edit to add: after reading the thread, do doubt someone will say that I am a mean-spirited person to deny a 'basic' right to these people, etc... but my PERSONAL gratification of thinking of my ex husband (who abused me while pregnant, terrorized my oldest son and possibly molested our daughter) being in a personal hell every time he eats. I am very pleased. Yep, I can forgive alot, but not this man...
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. I always say there's no better way to run a penal system than by personal revenge.
Yep. Thousands of real live human beings made to suffer in unhealthy situations is fine so long as we get our revenge.
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FirstLight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. oh, there's so much more I would do to him if given the chance,
judge all you want, and I have asked God to forgive him because I can't. the small blurb I wrote in my edit is nothing compared to the hell I went through for 4 years while being a prisoner in my own home. so yes, revenge would be real nice, thanks.

I could care less about the other inmates in there either, I am speaking to my personal issues, that's all.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. Do you ever think a day will come when you will wish someone cared about you?
If so, your insensitivity to others may become a detriment.

There is more to this world than any single person's issues, no matter how harsh.
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FirstLight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. I can only be as "sensitive" as my own survival allows
Since I am still reeling from the PTSD and the depression from the way my life has been royally fucked, and trying to handle the issues and damage he bestowed on my kids, and still try to work and run a house and keep everyone fed, etc...

My sensitivity to this issue is hardly relevant.

Ya, I think it IS funny that my ex is being 'tortured' in this mild and stupid way

hardly a comparison to my ability to have others care for me,
and as much as I would like to tell you to fuck off on your high horse, i'll try to be sensitive and just say I disagree
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. I hope you get the help you need.
That's not snark, I really mean it. No one should suffer abuse at the hand of another and I feel very strongly for you and for others, like those prisoners, who are treated inhumanely, if only because the abuse of one person generally leads to the abuse of many. At some point the chain must be broken, but asking those who have been abused to do it is sometimes more difficult than they can manage.

Perhaps you do need to focus on your own survival, we all have our crosses to bare. I'll just try to be sensitive for the both of us.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #45
136. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #136
140. You got that out of my post?
I just took the time to read through that hate-filled scrawl and can only say that either you entirely misinterpreted my post or you need help far more than the person I was addressing. I really believe it's both since you went places I never even touched on and claimed I said things when I had actually said the opposite.

Really amazing post.
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uncle ray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #44
50. just remember,
had you had enough before the law stepped in and took action to end your abusive relationship that was not completely within the law, ie. you "snapped" and shot your husband, you would be subject to the same mistreatment while imprisoned for defending yourself.

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FirstLight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. I actually left on my own...
His incarceration was his own damn fault. big drug deal gone bad...



and I know that the laws that punish women for fighting back are also vey wrong. Honestly i can't spare the emotion to feel upset about the fate of ALL prisoners. I am sure there are many who don't deserve the trauma of imprisonment.
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Sivafae Donating Member (286 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #44
55. Well...revenge is a dish best served...cold
And I totally hear you on that one, Journalgrrl. Men like that do fuck your life up, and they have a tendency to land in jail. In a lot ways, they do it themselves.
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Connonym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #44
63. If you let it turn you into a bitter person who doesn't care about anyone else
how exactly does that make you different from him? I mean this in a kind way, I agree with the other poster who said you need help. I doubt if you're perpetuating the abuse but you are perpetuating the psychology of what makes an abuser. Do I wish my abuser was rotting in a jail? Yeah but to extrapolate that into wishing every prisoner be in hell? Well I think that would mean that I've lost my humanity and I'll be goddamned if I'm letting abuse have the power to do that to me.
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jrockford Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #35
42. "Could care less" eh? Well that's good to think you care a tiny bit.
Being intelligent isn't a pre-req for those to consider themselves "progressive" or left, apparently. And neither is compassion.

Hope this vindictive streak repairs the damage he did to you, because we all know 2 wrongs = 1 right. :nopity:
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #33
121. I think a lot of people here need to be reminded that prisoners
are not all nice, misunderstood victims of society.

Most of the people at Pelican Bay are violent gang members, and half are serving life sentences. These are murderers, rapists, people who killed or attacked guards at other prisons, people who killed inmates at other prisons... not nice people.
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KakistocracyHater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
37. they're getting more sadistic now
at least it feels like it to me; private prisons are like hotels, bodies in cells/beds=$ that's not justice.
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #37
92. Are you speaking form experience? n/t
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 10:36 AM by peace13
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KakistocracyHater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #92
176. huh
what difference does it make?:)
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islandmkl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
43. incarceration is THE PENALTY...
to condone or promote the idea that imprisonment IN AND OF ITSELF is not enough punishment and needs to have every possible lack of human comfort (and social interaction) to 'fulfill' the penalty is ludicrous...

for those who don't know the difference, TWO THINGS:

1) you have never been incarcerated (aren't you special? or lucky?)

2) you don't want to ever go to jail...which may or may not have to do with some action you did or did not take...

eat that fucking bread and water and tell us all you can (and would willingly) do so....yeah, about 6 hours and you'll be crying for your mama...
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trollybob Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
48. what do they care?
I'm sure prison food tastes like shit hot or cold
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ksimons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
49. our military has suffered worse in the field, and yet prisoners try to be coddled. Blah
Good for the court. It's prison, not a critic's choice restaurant of the week. If you saw what these people did to earn their way into prison, you'd wonder why they are being fed at all, some of 'em.
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jrockford Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. Your reasoning is worthy of the free republic as is your compassion.
"Some of 'em"....ok, so what about the rest?
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #49
79. It a public health issue
Food intended to be hot must legally be held at 165 degrees. I'm sure this statistic applies to prison liscensing as well as any other food service venue.

As nice as it is to be vindictive, in this case, it's illegal.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #49
89. You don't know shit.
"What these people did to earn their way into prison." One-quarter of them are drug offenders. They didn't do anything to anybody.

The punishment of prison is being deprived of freedom, not being tortured or starved. Did you just get back from duty at Abu Ghraib?
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #49
93. Our troops should be treated well and that is not happening
with our privatized military. We are paying for top notch services. I hope that you are fighting for them here. Privatized anything does not seem to be successful when done by large Corps.
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duhneece Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #49
208. Wrong
Half the prisoners now incarcerated committed non-violent drug offenses because they suffer from the disease of addiction.
I want treatment vs incarceration for anyone suffering from any illness.
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strategery blunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
53. Holding food
I encourage those posters on this thread who say "Who cares if the food has cooled? Let them eat bread!" to go get a food handlers' card. Seriously.

In all likelihood, you will probably have to take an hour-or-so-long class, or get handed a 30-or-so-page pamphlet describing your state's food handling for commercial prep regulations.

Cooking food thoroughly by itself is not enough. If food is allowed to cool below a certain "holding temperature," without being refrigerated, bacteria can grow in the food again. This is PARTICULARLY true for "potentially hazardous foods" such as meats. For this reason, states require food that sets out at room temperature to either be used, refrigerated, discarded, or served within a certain time period. The other option is to store the cooked food in some heating apparatus (such as the infrared lamps used to keep fries warm) until it can be served.

Serving food that has sat at room temperature for too long can be a source of food poisoning. I would wager that if the food handling systems at the relevant prisons were audited, the food was "lukewarm" because it had been held at room temperature for too long, in violation of regulations. It might simply be a case of the food not getting to the prisoners in time, but you betcha the prison could do more at very little, if any, cost, to prevent this unnecessary risk of food-borne illness outbreaks.

Oh, and there's also a Supreme Court ruling on the books that prisoners are entitled to healthcare. Probably better to simply take reasonable steps to prevent prison sickness outbreaks, than have to hospitalize them because they became violently ill with food-borne sicknesses.

Of course, all of this discussion about serving food at the proper temperature is not necessary if, as some have suggested, we limit prisoners to a diet of bread and water. Hey, what a great idea, let's turn the prisons into concentration camps! :sarcasm: You do realize that not every person incarcerated has a life sentence, right? Yeah, let's restrict someone with a 6-month misdemeanor sentence to bread and water, and see how malnourished they are when they come out. :sarcasm:

America can, and SHOULD, do better than Third-World gulags.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
59. If the court does not have the right to enforce the department's
regulations on behalf of the prisoners, if the court does not have the right to interpret those regulations on behalf of all of us, then who does? The appellate court's decision, if correctly interpreted here, would allow the prison officials to interpret the rules without review. That cannot be correct. No official is above the law.

It's the court's job to interpret the language of the law, not the prison management. This is especially true in these days of private company management of so many prisons.
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jrockford Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. Hmm...I'm assuming the JD doesn't mean you're a lawyer.
The courts are not there to interpret agency rules. Agency rules, guidelines, etc are not necessarily there because of a codified law.

No official is above the law, but as far as departments are concerned - they are there to interpret and enforce their own rules, not the courts.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #62
168. You are right about the agency rules -- but agency decisions can be challenged.
I don't think that the decision being reviewed was that of an administrative judge. I think that in this case, prisoners sued the administrators of the prison for failure to provide services to which the prisoners believed they were entitled.

Here is a link to a story about similar case:

Wednesday, July 09, 2008
Inmates with Hep C sue California's prison system

Because, they say, the system isn't giving them treatment for the disease.

http://blogs.kansascity.com/crime_scene/2008/07/inmates-with-he.html

The court has to determine what rights the prisoners have. In the case discussed in the OP, I suspect that the prisoners alleged they were being deprived of the right to the hot meals.

Google JDPriestly. You may be surprised. The JD is not because I am a lawyer.
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hbskifreak Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 03:28 AM
Response to Original message
64. bologna
What would Sheriff Joe over in Maricopa County, AZ do?

Serve em cold Bologna sandwiches and dress em up in pink underwear.

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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-08 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #64
207. What's your opinion on Sheriff Joe? -nt
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insidejoke Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:47 AM
Response to Original message
70. Instead of Treating Them with Decency for the First Time in Their Lives...
...and giving a reason (and a helping hand) for dysfunctional addicts to change the lives, patterns, habits, etc. when they have no life skills, no job skills, no stability, and they come from generations of similarly situated dysfunctional addicts, these people are treated as though they're subhuman and then we're supposed to pretend to be shocked when they keep coming back. It's not surprising that the California state prisons have well over a 95% recidivism rate. And isn't it amazing that virtually ALL these individuals just HAPPEN to be poor minorities who've spent their entire lives recycled (and regurgitated) through the same system, and each time the system's done with them, instead of going ahead and saying "Hey, let's see what we can do to fix things, 'cuz without some help you're not going to be able to do it on your own", the state prison system just spits them back out onto the streets to wallow in their dysfunction until they reoffend?

Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is a bold face lie! Yes, it happens. There are exceptions, and that's because there ARE exceptional people, but the truth is that NOT EVERYONE is an exceptional person, and not everyone can do it on their own either. Is that fair? No. Is it true? Unfortunately, yes.

I've worked in the San Francisco criminal courts, and left because these courts seem to be set up only to ensure that people (and communities) fail. Oddly, San Francisco also contains probably the single most successful program at stopping recidivism anywhere in the US. It's called Delancey Street and it's a residency program for lifelong drug addicts, convicts, and ex-cons which focuses on giving people a second chance (or third, or fourth, or hundredth chance...and sometimes giving them a first chance, too) by giving them housing and jobs with the various Delancy Street businesses (a restaurant, a cafe, movers, dry cleaning, auto shop, Christmas tree sales, etc.) in order to teach them job skills, life skills, family skills, therapy, improved diets, and general education in an environment entirely run (with the exception of a single administrator) by a population composed of the convicts themselves.

I've got no problem with being "hard on crime", but "hard on crime" means making sure people struggle to build themselves up and then making them struggle harder to NEVER come back. The recidivism rate at Delancy Street? Less than 30%...and I promise you they get hot meals.

Yet, somehow this actual "hard on crime" program has failed to catch on almost anywhere else. It's like people want criminals to stay criminals and want dysfunction to stay dysfunction. Making sure that people stay behind bars from the age of 14 through half (or more) of the rest of their lives because they don't have the abilities to change on their own isn't "hard on crime"...it's more like being part of the problem.

http://www.delanceystreetfoundation.org/
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jrockford Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #70
84. Good post nt
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all.of.me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #70
85. Thank you!
Nourishment is a right, not a condition. The Delancey Street facility here in NM is "a magnificent venue for Delancey Catering. Catering is one of the key vocational skills taught here, along with culinary arts..." :)

I lived almost next door to it years ago and knew a few people who were there for rehab, and they were successful, I'm glad to say. It's a very impressive program. Thanks for posting!
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Shoelace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #70
173. "The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons."
Fyodor Dostoevsky
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:51 AM
Response to Original message
71. Great article for bringing out the worst in all of us.
Imagine being unjustly incarcerated.

Imagine being there for the rest of your life.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. Not all of us.
And the best to you for being a thinking, caring human being, unlike some of the ruthless, self-righteous flotsam and jetsam in this thread.
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
74. Health codes
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 07:21 AM by junofeb
Food has to be held at 165 degrees. If they aren't holding (and serving) at 165 for hot food, they are breaking health code. Doesn't matter if it's a prison.

Edit to add: Anyone in this position or is dealing with someone who is, I smell LAWSUITS!
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Arkplayer Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #74
86. 165 Degrees
Health codes require food be cooked to 165 degrees to kill bacteria, not served at 165 degrees.

No winnable lawsuit here, much ado about nothing.

"State prison rules say inmates are entitled to two hot meals a day - but it's up to prison officials to decide how hot is hot enough, a state appeals court ruled Tuesday."

"Margulies said prison records indicated that meals served to the security unit are reheated to between 110 and 120 degrees, close to the ideal level for hot food, and generally served 10 to 20 minutes later, though the wait can be longer in unusual circumstances. Even if a meal sometimes arrives lukewarm or cold, she said, the records suggest that this is the exception, not the rule."

"About 1,100 inmates are held in security housing because of their crimes, prison conduct or gang affiliations. The inmates aren't allowed in the prison cafeteria but get their meals in trays through a port in their cell doors."

Not directed at you, junofeb, but way too much hyperbole from many here about abuse and maltreatment of prisoners in this instance.

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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #86
123. Common sense!
Thank you!
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #86
130. OK
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 01:35 PM by junofeb
Not everyone in prison is deserving of bread and water and bolonga sammitzes. Some don't even deserve to be there. As Jesus said, we are judged by how we treat the least among us.

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strategery blunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #86
141. See my post about holding food upthread.
Even though the food does not have to be served at 165 degrees, it still must be held at a certain temperature. In Washington (where I live), I believe holding temperature is 140 degrees.

Unless California's food prep regulations are FAR more lax, holding food at 110-120 degrees is not sufficient. Also, if food is allowed to cool to room temperature and then reheated, it must be reheated to full cooking temperature.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #74
193. Many restaurants serve cold sandwiches
Why are prisoners entitles to more protections than those who eat at Blimpie's?
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comtec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
81. The original point of a prison was self betterment - what happened to rehabilitation?
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 07:40 AM by comtec
There have been many rehabilitation programs over the years, and from what LITTLE it told about them, they work.

Serving food a safe temperature doe not seem unreasonable. IF the prison is incapable of this, they should just serve sandwiches, or something that can handle cold temps.

The question is "why should we treat these monsters like humans?"

The answer, is painfully simple... because we're better than that.
Journalgrrl , my heart goes out to you, and I empathize with your schidenfreude, which imho is well just. Some monsters do deserve this treatment. it won't harm him physically - in keeping with the law of his incarceration - and maybe it'll make him more appreciative of proper warm meals if he ever gets out (from what it sounds like, hopefully never)

And for long-term prisoners, who are violent, and show no regret, etc, the REAL monsters, honestly I have no problem with denying them properly warm meals.

but they are still a MINORITY of the prison population. (ok I think they are, god I hope they are)

The rest are short timers (0-12 months, couple years etc) who will cycle through the system.

The people who show remorse for what they did, who WANT to work towards self improvement, these people should be allowed to be reformed. They should be allowed to have access to complete their HS education, to learn a basic trade, to leave prison, a better citizen, if not human, than when they went in.

Prisoners who can be trusted to eat in the cafeteria should also have access to properly warm food... well no worse than the rest of us at the HS or work cafeteria anyway...

The penal system needs more common sense in it's running, and this ruling that says the courts can not enforce the rules set down BY the penal system FOR the penal system is IMHO disturbing.

Not in regards to THIS case ,but what that implies... that they don't HAVE to follow their own rules if they cry hard enough.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #81
125. Short-timers are not held in this unit at Pelican Bay
and prisoners there are not allowed to go to the cafeteria.
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comtec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #125
178. well then, nvm :)
Like I said, treatment for the good, and civilized prisoners, let the monsters be treated like animals.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
88. People who have never been in prison have no idea of the importance
of little things like properly cooked food is to prisoners. There have been prison riots and people killed over poor quality prison food.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
98. The core problem is there are too many people in prison who don't belong there
Especially here in California.
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
120. They should never have a TV, let alone cable TV. The system is to soft, IMHO.
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ThePowerofWill Donating Member (462 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #120
184. You are full of shit, and don't know what the fuck you are talking about!
There needs to be some privileges, and distractions. Do you have any idea what happens when there is less or none? Riots, and violence thats what. I know i have been too prison, lived it for 6yrs. I got 6yrs for growing marijuana for medicine for people who were very sick. Despite the bullshit you think you know there are a lot of kind decent people in prison. Many have made a simple mistake, and many got into trouble because of mental problems. About 10% of the real prison population in beyond hope and deserve to stay there. It's clear to many of you assholes have watched to much tv, and believe what you see is common when in fact you don't know shit.

Whats wrong with a little tv if it saves lives?
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
126. And after the first couple of prison riots, what then?
Food is a MAJOR cause of prison riots. This ruling is certain to cause some.
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #126
144. Look, prison is way to soft. I had a person in my taxi once tell me they missed jail.
Those words should never come out of ones mouth.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
138. Private prison companies cutting corners to try to make a fast buck. (nt)
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 01:41 PM by w4rma
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LeftHander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
139. How many prison riots started becaue the food was too good?
??
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
142. Human beings should be treated humanely.
No matter what crime they've supposedly committed.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #142
150. Even those who wantonly treated others inhumanely in the first place?
When does the chain end? Before the vicious antisocial feeb does his first rape or murder?
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #150
158. How a society treats its lowest members says a lot about it..
If you treat your antisocial feebs like unwanted animals they'll reward you by raping & murdering your fellow citizens.
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mikita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
143. some of the remarks in this thread leave me speechless...
I don't even know how to respond. I guess you guys are A-okay with torture as well, because, surely, they deserve it. After all, if you don't do anything wrong, you'd never get incarcerated, right?? Dripping sarcasm.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
145. As antisocial as I can be toward people,
and as cruel as I may seem at times to some(because I don't always feel like socializing), even I think prisoners should be served decent hot food.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #145
151. Decent food, I'll agree.
Keep them alive so they can claim to repent and get out earlier...
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
149. How about 'too hot'? Keep them in the microwave for 20 minutes... that'll be hot.
Okay, I'll stop being cynical and sardonic; they should be fed with proper nourishment. I mean, the rest of us work our butts off and still have to pay for our food. When will inmates demand caviar and Grey Poopon?
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
152. As Doestoyevsky said, you can see how advanced a society is by looking at their prisions.
For the people that want them to have stale bread and water, that pretty much show their humanity.
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
154. US Constitution - no cruel or unusual punishment.


Denial of hot meals is a form of torture.
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #154
156. Give me a break.
There is nothing wrong with serving cold sandwiches once in a while. When I was in school we didn't always get hot lunches and we did just fine with the occasional cold sandwich. And I suspect that most prison inmates eat a lot better than many poor people in this country already.

BTW, one of my favorite meals is a cold sandwich from Subway.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #156
157. Torture may be too strong but it is cruel.
We're not talking about cold sandwiches. We're talking about food that has been prepared then left out for time periods that could promote the growth of deadly bacteria. It is cruel and unusual punishment to force human beings to eat possibly tainted food.
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zelta gaisma Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
160. Safe Food Rules..
Make sure it's cooked right and kept at safe temps(to keep the food safe to eat) and isn't gross and call it good.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
165. Wow, I thought I was on Free Republic for a moment,
Glad to see DU is full of insensitive assholes too.

:puke:

RL

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np33 Donating Member (100 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #165
166. Not to seem insensitive
but what is the big deal about prisoners getting a cold meal once and awhile? I rather see legal fight ensue over families that are struggling to put a hot meal on the table or put any food for that matter on the table. I would also have to assume that there are significantly more pressing issues then cold meals in terms of Prisoner rights. So unless weren't talking about unsanitary or ill-inducing food then I don't see why this is remotely an issue.
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #166
167.  I'm ok with giving death row imates bread and water once a day....unless they really are innocent
like they claim to be......
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JDwho Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #167
174. Someone close to me, who spent time in prison...
said the boxes of chicken were stamped "not for human consumption". Ugh.

I consider them humans, and know that there have been times in my life I could have landed in jail. Probably not prison, but who knows? A judge in a bad mood, making an example....

Many are in there for marijuana offenses. They'd have a lot less to feed if they suspended those sentences.
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Kurska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
172. Cold food means it was sitting around for awhile
That really really really, can't be healthy
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Arkplayer Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
177. Pelican Bay
From the Court Decision:


Evidence showed that food for all of Pelican Bay’s inmates is prepared in a single central kitchen, from which it is transported to “satellite kitchens” where final preparation is completed and the food is reheated to 165 degrees before serving. Inmates in the secured housing unit receive the same food as other prisoners, but are fed in their cells through a port in the door on thermally-insulated plastic trays.

The SHU has its own satellite kitchen, and food reheated there is transferred from the “hot line” to containers maintained at 140 degrees, and then stacked in trays on an open cart for transport to its 22 individual units. A correctional officer must measure and record temperature at each unit, with food typically ranging from 110-120 degrees when it arrives, and testimony at the hearing placed the latter as the ideal temperature for consumption of hot food.

Trays are then distributed to the 48 inmates in a unit, with officers frequently changing the order of service to ensure that particular inmates are not consistently the last to receive their food. Total elapsed time from hot line to SHU inmates’ cells is typically from 20-45 minutes, although it can reach an hour in unusual circumstances.

The prison makes no further attempt to control to temperature of food at the time it reaches SHU inmates, and maintains no regulations specifying the temperature at the time of delivery to individual cells.


Prison official are making a good faith effort under incredibly difficult circumstances. The Security Housing Unit at Pelican Bay holds California's most dangerous prisoners except those on death row. How anyone can call this "torture" or "cruel and unusual punishment" as some have stated here is beyond me.
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Piewhacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #177
185. The suit was pretty obviously about ...
enforcing "regulations" regarding food service, which implied
the prisoners were contending none of that stuff quoted
was actually happening.
(helpful to provide cite or URL for quoted material. thanks )

Knowing this it follows without even reading the case that
for the judge to rule against the prison
we have to pretty much figure he was of the opinion none of
that stuff was actually happening.

In fact, wasn't the appellate ruling that the prisoners have
no right to enforce these regulations, which implies THEY
also accepted the quoted procedures weren't being followed.

Whether guards are doing their best is a stawman. The case
does not appear to be about a deliberate and malicious
campaign (conspiracy) by guards to inflict unlawful punishment
and harassment of prisoners in their charge. At Pelican Bay there
is ample history of such claims, but this does not seem to be
the situation claimed here.

Hey, us DUers pride ourselves on understanding the issues,
and getting the facts right. Unlike rethugs, we think
that's important, right?
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Arkplayer Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #185
191. The suit
Retired Del Norte Justice Court Judge Philip M. Schafer, sitting by assignment, granted limited relief in March on consolidated habeas petitions by prisoners Kelvin Cannon and Robert Luca, who raised concern over the meals served in the segregated facility for inmates deemed a security threat in which they were housed.

Following an evidentiary hearing, Schafer rejected most of the petitioners’ contentions, but ruled that the prison had not satisfied the regulatory mandate that state prison inmates be provided three meals each day, two of which shall be served hot.

Schafer held the prison should determine the acceptable temperature range, and ordered it to establish a preparation and serving procedure to assure a reasonable level of compliance, but Justice Sandra L. Margulies wrote on appeal that habeas relief was not available because Cannon and Luca had shown no constitutional or statutory right to two meals of hot food per day.

“The writ of habeas corpus was expanded to permit lawfully incarcerated inmates to challenge the conditions of their confinement to ensure that, while in confinement, their basic rights are respected,” she commented. “It was not intended to provide them a means to micromanage the prison.”

Assuming that the trial court had properly treated the claims as petitions for writs of mandate, Margulies wrote that Schafer’s decision was still “flawed” because he adopted his own interpretation of “served hot” instead of determining whether the prison’s interpretation was “clearly unreasonable” under the circumstances.

She agreed with the prison that its interpretation—“heated before serving and then served as quickly as possible”—was not clearly unreasonable given the security measures in place, and added, “there is nothing in the language of the regulation that requires food to be presented to the inmates at the most aesthetically pleasing temperature.”

The justice further opined that there was no substantial evidence the prison regularly violated its interpretation of the regulation.

“Temperature logs showed that hot food virtually always arrives at the SHU units above room temperature, generally within a few degrees of the 120 degrees Fahrenheit considered ideal for consumption,” she wrote. “While it is entirely possible that, as petitioners testified, their food is sometimes served to them lukewarm or cold, the temperature records suggest this is the exception, not the rule.”

Presiding Justice James J. Marchiano and Justice Douglas E. Swager joined Margulies in her opinion

The case is In re Cannon, 08 S.O.S. 6426.

And yes, I have noticed that DUers pride themselves on understanding the issues and getting things right; at least usually....
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Piewhacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #191
194. Glad to agree...
That DUers try to get things right, at least usually.
Which is why it is helpful to provide URL's (or standard citations)
when quoting material.

Which is why I mention you have now twice
quoted articles without providing a URL to their source.
The actual source of the news article you
quoted is found here:
http://www.metnews.com/articles/2008/cann112608.htm

The appellate case is actually a better source, and
found here: http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/documents/A121142.PDF
(warning - its a PDF - 32k)

I know you are really new to DU (3 posts). So I mention it.

As you will see, the opinion indicates two grounds for reversal.
(1) No constitutional right violated (habeas relief denied)
(2) Abuse of discretion (mandamus relief denied)

Of these, there is existing case law contrary to the opinion
offered in support of the denial of habeas relief. There is
disagreement, acknowledged by the court. They might be right,
but possibly not.

The mandamus discussion concerns a regulation which states:
"Inmates shall be provided three meals each day, two of which
shall be served hot." (Page 7)

The issue is what does "served hot" mean in the reg.

The appellate court states that: "The prison contends that
its interpretation of “served hot” is that “two inmate meals
per day must be heated before serving and then served as
quickly as possible.”. This they think is a reasonable interpretation
of the regulation, and they state that there was no substantial
evidence at trial that the prison regularly violates this
interpretation of the regulation.

The prison pretty much asserts that meaning of "served hot" is "cooked".
And the appellate court agrees (the trial court disagreed).
So, what do you think of the prisons interpretation? "reasonable",
or "clearly unreasonable"? Admit it, its a crock of shit, right?

So do you think it reasonable to disagree with the appellate court
in this case?





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Arkplayer Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #194
200. Reasonable
Edited on Fri Nov-28-08 11:53 PM by Arkplayer
Your statement:

"The prison pretty much asserts that meaning of "served hot" is "cooked". So, what do you think of the prisons interpretation? "reasonable", or "clearly unreasonable"? Admit it, its a crock of shit, right?"

Actually, as you noted just above that, the prison contends that its interpretation of “served hot” is that “two inmate meals per day must be heated before serving and then served as quickly as possible.” Even at trial it contended "Cooked and Warm". The Appellate Court ruled that the trial court’s limited task was to determine whether the prison’s own interpretation of the regulation was “clearly unreasonable” under the circumstances. It ruled, correctly in my opinion, that it was not.

But, let's look at not just what the prison's interpretation of the minimum required by their regulation was, but what their actual practice was at SHU food service. The real question to most of us here is this: "Was the prison’s food service practices in the SHU clearly unreasonable under the circumstances?"

Let's look at both circumstance and practice:


The Circumstance:

The SHU is designed to house inmates who “pose a definite and serious threat to
the safety of others or themselves” or who are deemed “a threat to the security of the
institution for escape, major destruction of property, or activities leading to disorder.”
SHU inmates are segregated from the remainder of the prison population. Their activities
are subject to significant restrictions, and they are closely monitored. At the time of the
hearing, there were 1,100 inmates in the SHU, distributed among 22 separate units, with
48 inmates per unit.

The Food Service Practice:

Despite their isolation, SHU inmates receive the same food as other prison
inmates. As a security precaution, SHU inmates are fed in their cells through a port in
the cell door. The food is served to them on individual trays, known as “slammer trays,”
that are made of heavy plastic and thermally insulated. Slammer trays are designed to be
stacked, with the bottom of one tray serving as the top of the tray beneath it, thereby
insulating the lower tray.

Food for all the prison’s inmates is prepared in a single central kitchen, from
which it is transported to “satellite kitchens” for final preparation and distribution. After
central kitchen preparation, the food is chilled quickly and stored until it is sent to the
satellite kitchens, where it is reheated before serving. The reheating process is monitored
to ensure that the food is reheated to a minimum of 165 degrees Fahrenheit, a treatment
intended to protect against bacterial growth.

The SHU has its own satellite kitchen. Following reheating in the SHU satellite
kitchen, the food is promptly transferred to large containers set in a line, maintained at a
minimum of 140 degrees Fahrenheit. Slammer trays are passed down the line and filled
with food by non-SHU inmate workers. The filled trays are stacked on an open cart for
transport to a unit of the SHU. Each transport cart holds enough slammer trays to serve
all the inmates in one SHU unit.

Once the trays for a particular SHU unit are prepared and stacked on a transport
cart, correctional officers at the unit are called to pick up the cart from the kitchen.
Pushing a transport cart from the satellite kitchen to an individual SHU unit takes about
five minutes, but security and other delays can occasionally extend the time required for a
correctional officer to pick up the cart from the satellite kitchen and transport it to the unit
to 20 to 30 minutes. When the transport cart reaches the unit, a correctional officer must
measure and record the temperature of the food. Temperature logs show that hot food
typically ranges from 110 to 120 degrees Fahrenheit when it reaches the units, although
there are occasional readings outside this range. Testimony at the hearing placed
120 degrees Fahrenheit as the ideal temperature for consumption of hot food.

Once the temperature is recorded, the trays are distributed to the inmates, a
process that requires 10 to 20 minutes. The correctional officers frequently change the
order in which inmates are served to ensure that particular inmates are not consistently
the last to receive their food. The total time elapsed from the end of the hot line to the
SHU inmates’ cells is typically from 20 to 45 minutes, but it can reach an hour in unusual
circumstances.

www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/documents/A121142....



I don't think either the prisons interpretation or their practice were unreasonable at all under the circumstances and even further from being a crock of shit... :-)

Look, I don't want to be linked to those who say things like "feed em bread and water or "who cares what they get to eat", as I do believe prisoners are deserving of fair treatment. However, those in this thread who call this SHU food practice "torture", or "cruel and unusual punishment" or "tactics Stalin would be proud of" are beyond the pale.

By the way, I had leftover Turkey and the fixins for supper tonight. It was reheated to 102 degrees (I checked it with my barbecue thermometer) and it was delicious.... :-)







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Piewhacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #200
201. Reasonable people think its a 'crock'.
Glad to hear you enjoyed your turkey.
Please make a note that 102 degrees is 35 degrees warmer than the
67 degrees this decision allows food to be consistently served.
Would you like that turkey at 67 degrees day after day?
Obviously not, you cooked it to a delicious 102 and consumed it promptly,
with cranberry no doubt.

Now I appreciate you aren't in the "feed them slop" group, and I trust you
recognize I am not in the "cold food is torture" group. But this appellate
decision is poorly reasoned and incorrect. It is itself unreasonable.

The rule (artculated by the panel) CLEARLY does not meet the plain language
of the regulation, that two meals be "served hot". That's what you look at
first,the plain language, right? Isn't that in the maxims somewhere?
No mention of plain language anywhere. Why was that?
They wanted a rule that wasn't itself enforceable. Duh. Bad panel!

So, "surprize", the regulation defined by the appellate panel does not create an
enforceable standard. There really isn't any way to violate it (without violating
the eighth amendment). Cook the food, then eventually deliver it.
No health or appetite concerns. You'd need to consistently not cook it or not deliver
it to violate the rule. They make it pretty clear, this panel, that in their view
any interpretation which does not violate the the eighth amendment would be deemed by
them 'reasonable'. Yet in that case, whats the point of regulations?

I put it this way. We (society) determine the standard for proper treatment
of prisoners, not the jailer. Unlike this panel I give the jailer little
to ZERO 'deference' in this circumstance (more given in others, such as security).
Regulations are promulgated specifically because we do not intend to treat our
prisoners at the limit of abomination and criminality, or at the naked margins
of 'cruel and unusual'. This panel doesn't seem to agree.

Instead here it is plain that, absent emergency, two meals each day are to be
served hot, where "hot" should meet some basic standard of health and
acceptability, such as the consumer test articulated by the trial court.
Obviously, that standard wasn't being met, according to the finder of fact.

But remember, this isn't about guards doing their best, its about the
system doing what its is supposed to do. So (management) you should feed them
hot food, dammit, or find alternative employment. Geez.
And my only remaining question is: are they daring to say it can't be done?

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MontyZuma Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 05:13 AM
Response to Original message
180. There's more here than meets the eye
This isn't just about how hot the meals are, its about the complete inability to get
things fixed by working within the system.

If prisoners can't get the State to live up to its own regulations on such a minor matter as
serving hot meals hot, how can prisoners possibly hope to get more serious matters addressed?

Keep in mind that before this suit could be filed, all internal remedies have to be exhausted,
first, which can take a year all by itself. As you can see, that process is completely
ineffective in dealing with the problems for which it was designed. Indeed, anyone who uses
it risks reprisal.

All the self-corrective mechanisms have been disconnected. The press can not interview
prisoners at random; clergy can be fired for reporting sub-standard conditions; there is no
outside auditing, while corruption is hidden behind a conspiracy of silence.

Why should you care? If human decency is not enough, then how about the $46,000 per year
it costs to incarcerate a person in California--roughly double the national average. Where
does this money go? Certainly not to the prisoners. Prisoners are dangerously overcrowded;
they actually punished for trying to rehabilitate themselves. They are forced to drink foul
polluted water that runs grey from the tap (washing clothes in it only makes them dirtier).
There is no hot water for showers at least 5 days in any given month, there is no dish soap to
wash your cup and spoon. As a consequence, diarrhea epidemics are common. Skin diseases run
rampant; mental illness goes untreated; and medical care runs from nonexistent to dangerously
incompetent. The result is that prison exacts a toll on a prisoner's health which inevitably
becomes a significant expense to society later on.

When things break down they stay broken down until they can no longer be ignored, then
outside intervention imposes a solution that is far more expensive than if things had been
run by the book. This is what is happening now with the prison health care system being
placed under federal receivership.

Again, why should you care? Because the University of California and the State University
system are having to cut back admissions 10% this year because all of the money in the State
Budget is being siphoned off by the prisons. Prisons add nothing to the Gross National
Product, they only destroy people and the communities they come from. Indeed, incarceration
rates have only a very minor effect on crime rates, and even that is cancelled out in the
long run.
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
183. This thread is sad
As a non-American, I can say with some authority that one of the things that saddens the rest of the world is your expensive, cruel and dysfunctional prison system, and your predisposition as a people to treat offenders with a degree of harshness that would please Stalin.

Last year you set the terrible threshold record where more than 1 per cent of your population is now incarcerated. Way to go America.

I wish Michael Moore would take on the US prison system in his next outing. It is a self-inflicted disgrace to your country which can and ought to be reformed.

- B
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Piewhacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #183
187. Yes, many Americans are shamed by our criminal justice system...
we are also shamed by our foreign policy stance of the last
eight years, including an official policy of disregarding the
Geneva accords. I agree with your sentiments, and point.

We understand that the world is watching, has always watched us,
and that we have not always lived up to our aspirations.

The beautiful song of our nation has been trampled and replaced
by discordant howl of unsurpassed ugliness. Wiretapping, torture,
massive theft and criminality by public officials, dysfunctional
criminal justice, dysfunctional schools, crumbling infrastructure,
collapsing economy, economic and social injustice...

So we have not always lived up to our aspirations yet... every
now and then, miraculously, wonderfully, we do.
Yes we are shamed, some of us, many of us, but not defeated.
From darkness we are rising again. We can fix this.
We elected Obama, didn't we?
Surely that will count for something?
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #187
189. You wrote:
We elected Obama, didn't we? Surely that will count for something?

Absolutely. It's huge. But there is just so far to go for America to create a more sensible and successful prison system. The biggest obstacle is that, far as I can tell, prison reform is barely an issue that anyone wants to even talk about at this point.

- B
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Piewhacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #189
190. The economy collapses..
people worry about their houses, jobs, children.
Priorities, always priorities.

For the last 8 years our priorities have been in the hands
of a madman, a criminal enterprise. We thought it couldn't happen
in America. Germans thought it couldn't happen in Germany.
You probably think it cannot happen in your country.
Yet here we are. Surrealistically. Unbelievably.

The pendulum always swings. Everywhere it swings.
We were too complacent and allowed the pendulum to swing too far.
We nearly lost our country to fascism. Very nearly.
Our laws were exactly so poised and aimed. We were brought to the brink.
The world was next. That is why YOU watch us, is it not?
It is a sobering and frightening thing. Too close. It must not happen again.
We should teach our children vigilance, and hope they will listen.
Will they?
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
186. deleted by author
Edited on Thu Nov-27-08 11:10 AM by Bragi
Sorry, a duplicate posting.

- B
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
192. Prison should be an unpleasant place prisoners do not want to return to
Edited on Thu Nov-27-08 11:48 PM by Freddie Stubbs
As long as the meals are nutritious and healthy, prisoners should be thankful for what the taxpayers provide.
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #192
197. they live better then most third world citizens. they should be thankful for that......
but no
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Piewhacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #197
199. you're joking.... is that how they do it in ohio?
What is this model Ohio uses, Guantanamo CUBA?
this is the USA, not some third world country.

8 more years of repukes and it would have been a third world
country, sure, but by god not yet.

I cannot fathom any person who believes mistreatment of
prisoners is proper, that denial of medicine (like insulin or pain killers),
proper nutrition and healthy food, among other things, is
right. No one is "coddling" prisoners. That's a fantasy.
People who believe that need to change, or face some bad karma.
Figure about 25% of the prisoners are innocent anyway. Really.
Even a former AG (Thornberg) agrees, and he is hard-line
republi-scum. He knows it. I know it. Now Ohio knows it.

Let me tell you of John, who entered county jail for a 6 month term on a
minor drug charge just after back surgery. Although in great pain he
received NO medication, not even aspirin. Admitted fact.
For three months he begged for something to ease the pain, but zero relief.
Even guards could not believe it, in fact several guards sought counsel
to see if they could be held liable.

After three months, after repeatedly calling that he could not stand it
any more, John hung himself in his cell. 10 separate cases each as bad.
And thats just the local county jail in one example year.

After much public outcry Doctor X was finally discharged.
I heard he was transferred to Pelican Bay. no, really. hey hey!

California is no good example to anyone. And if others are doing the same or
worse, then I for one conclude that if they cannot treat prisoners better,
then perhaps they shouldn't have any.

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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #199
202. Are you actually that clueless
Wonder what the Saudi prisons are like compared to Gitmo ?
You would prefer to be doing time in a third world prison ? How about conditions in the black hole or a Turkish prison ?



Or live off government subsidies in Sudan,Chad or Zimbabwee.


Obviously, pondering the true meaning of thanksgiving never occured to you.

Just pass the taters and shut yer pie hole






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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
198. I guess some people on this thread just don't get the concept of human rights
And yes it does apply to inmates.
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #198
203. Human rights?
Are you ready to feed these people a hot meal

http://broadband.indiatimes.com/toishowvideo/3773580.cms


and rehabilitate them ?

Maybe they should be picky about what you are going to feed them

:sarcasm:

I know double standards can found on this thread
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Piewhacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #203
204. You persist...
Edited on Sat Nov-29-08 06:54 PM by Piewhacket
in acting like its about them, about what THEY deserve.

I understand. You want vengeance. You want to vent your
spleen, to inflict retribution upon another to requite
the hurt and hatred in your own heart. Sure, I get it.

And you think it right that you get to decide who should
be punished, how, and when, and how much. Yet you want
to do this without even knowing what they have done, based
only on their status as "prisoners". But then, that makes
all about you, don't you see?

What is then apparent is that though you talk as though it is about
them, it really isn't about them, its about you.

Well, you might be shocked to know that I agree with you, that
how we treat prisoners isn't about them, or about what
they "deserve", but about who we are, who we aspire to be.

So who do you want to be, ohio?
Just consider it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #204
206. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
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