Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

The D-word: Will recession become something worse?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:08 PM
Original message
The D-word: Will recession become something worse?
Source: AP

Many of us here knew this word would be uttered during the Obama administration. I am surprised it took the MSM this long to bring up the topic.

snip< "We're probably in a depression now. But it's not going to be acknowledged until years go by. Because you have to see it behind you," said Peter Morici, a business professor at the University of Maryland.

snip< Today's recession is already longer than all but two of the downturns since World War II. But for now, public officials are being extremely cautious about the D-word. Alfred Kahn, a top economic adviser to President Carter, learned that lesson in 1978 when he warned that rampaging inflation might lead to a recession or even "deep depression."

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090302/ap_on_bi_ge/the_d_word
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. recommend
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mike 03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kick and Rec. Yes.
We all need to get on the same page regarding what is happening.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Just shocked it took them this long.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. What is a depression?
http://economics.about.com/cs/businesscycles/a/depressions_2.htm

Before the Great Depression of the 1930s any downturn in economic activity was referred to as a depression. The term recession was developed in this period to differentiate periods like the 1930s from smaller economic declines that occurred in 1910 and 1913. This leads to the simple definition of a depression as a recession that lasts longer and has a larger decline in business activity.
The Difference

So how can we tell the difference between a recession and a depression? A good rule of thumb for determining the difference between a recession and a depression is to look at the changes in GNP. A depression is any economic downturn where real GDP declines by more than 10 percent. A recession is an economic downturn that is less severe.

By this yardstick, the last depression in the United States was from May 1937 to June 1938, where real GDP declined by 18.2 percent. If we use this method then the Great Depression of the 1930s can be seen as two separate events: an incredibly severe depression lasting from August 1929 to March 1933 where real GDP declined by almost 33 percent, a period of recovery, then another less severe depression of 1937-38. The United States hasn’t had anything even close to a depression in the post-war period. The worst recession in the last 60 years was from November 1973 to March 1975, where real GDP fell by 4.9 percent. Countries such as Finland and Indonesia have suffered depressions in recent memory using this definition.


So, by this definition if the GDP declines by more than 10%, then it may be called a depression. We are not in that ballpark yet or nothing like the declines of the Great Depression.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. 6% in One Quarter Puts Us Damn Close, Though
If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. "Close" only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and drive-in movies.
I've seen people in real life who walk like a duck and talk like a duck, but they are not ducks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. 6percent is pretty close, to say that it isn't in the ballpark of 10percent is a stretch.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. So if your boss gave you a 6% raise, isn't that in the ballpark of a 10% raise?
Probably not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dreamnightwind Donating Member (863 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. 6% in ONE QUARTER
We contracted 6% in one quarter, not at an annual rate of 6%.

Unless that quarter was an anomaly (yeah right), we entered a depression in the 4th quarter of 2008. We'll easily contract more than 10% decline this year, at least that's how it looks to me.

You can quibble with the numbers, like saying that technically we didn't decline more than 10% last year, if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that in the 4th quarter the GDP declined at much more than the official rate of depression (2.5% would do it for one quarter), and it's extremely likely to continue doing so.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. So the ASSUMPTION it will be as bad or worse in subsequent quarters?
Ooooh, somebody is quibbling with numbers. Well if hoping for a depression makes you happy....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. That's not a hope, but a fear
We are where we are today because of the consensus within the corridors of power that wealth should be concentrated more and more in the hands of the few. Many Democrats have noted for a long time that the destruction of the middle class would have dire economic consequences. That this has come to pass is not the result of any hopes or fears we may have: it is the direct result of plutocrats gaming the system since 1980 creating a new gilded age, and a new depression.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #12
34. When it falls 7percent this quarter and then 8percent the next will it then be in the ballpark?
I get being optimistic, but the numbers are getting close.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. No, it is an annualized rate.
It was a 6.2% annual rate, not a 24.8% annual rate.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aKMkV532Xkq0&refer=home
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. False
"We contracted 6% in one quarter, not at an annual rate of 6%."

The GDP numbers that are reported are specifically annualized and seasonally adjusted.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dreamnightwind Donating Member (863 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #17
31. correction duly noted
Thanks to posts 13 and 17 for pointing out that this is an annualized rate for the quarterly GDP numbers. I am quite happy to be wrong this time.

Crossing my fingers on this, it still feels and looks like a depression to me, but the 4th quarter contraction numbers weren't at this level, and that's a good thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. Not yet, but the acceleration of the decline since September has been fightening.

The jobs shed in a 4 month period have been phenomenal. If you count unemployment the way they did in the 1930s, it's 15.4 percent now. That's matched with a 6.2 percent contraction in a single quarter. At this rate, we'll arrive at the dreaded D by July, tops.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. No kidding...everything changed and all bets were off
once Lehman was allowed to go. The acceleration is really incredible. Now imagine if we had no FDIC, unemployment insurance, etc.... :scared:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
8. no....not close to the depression of the 30`s
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NeoConsSuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. we're still in the middle innings
and every economic report that comes out is always far worse than the economists predicted. That says a lot.

What started out as a banking/credit crisis is now rapidly spreading throughout Main Street with no forseeable end in sight.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Yes indeedy...The scary thing here is that most
recessions since WWII have been caused by oil shocks - we did have an oil shock that has subsided, but it was incidental in this case. This time the problem is structural and systemic. I see no way to end this in a timely fashion. Somehow I think the tech sector will lead us out of this - tech is the best way to make something out of nothing but intellectual power - I have been talking to some Silicon Valley entrepreneurs lately and it is through them that I get hope.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stox Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
10. Parts of the Country have been in a depression for some time
Take a look at Michigan.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
llmart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Yep.
I took a look at the people in the fourteen houses on my street and there are more unemployed than are employed. A week ago I noticed my neighbor's car didn't leave the driveway all week and I doubt she's on vacation. She's not sick - I've seen her walking her dog every day. That means both she and her husband have lost their jobs and they have two small children.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. Yea - I think that would be the model of a modern day Great Depression
even if it is only localized. Studies should be done there so that people outside of Michigan can better understand what we may potentially be up against.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #10
32. Ohio, Michigan, parts of several other states.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
15. Not at all close now.
First, this is a political and not a formal economic question. Second, unless unemployment approaches 20%, I simply don't think that would be the case, with the basic cultural, social and political order threatened.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
16. Deflation is here already, depression may be here in another year.
Compared to the first year of the 1929 to 1933 period, the stock market has fallen further and unemployment is worse. We're only getting our first glimpse of the abyss at this point. It's going to take several years to get to the bottom. So, the comparison is a bit early at this point. Financially, I'd say we're a lot worse. Debt is much larger and disparity between rich and poor, which fuel the downward spiral, is worse. So, I think it could become worse than the GD in the end.

The economy should have been let down in 2003, but the Iraq war was waged to pull us out of that recession. The same day the bombs dropped on Baghdad, the stock market rallied and never looked back. Now we're paying the price of that five year bubble of deficit spending.

So, Obama is now trying to blow a bigger bubble to keep the economy afloat, at the cost of an entire future generation that has to bear our debt burden. Time to get beyond the bubble economics toward sustainable economics. But Obama and Geithner are keeping the banks from being nationalized at any cost to future generations. Health care not nationalized yet either. There are painful lessons to be learned here.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HuskiesHowls Donating Member (582 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
19. Remeber, a RECESSION is
when my neighbor loses his job, and a DEPRESSION is when I lose MY job!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
22. A depression is defined as a long recession
So anytime now we can start to call this recession a depression..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
24. I'm confused...
...according to lots of posters here, it's been a depression since last September. With no recovery, ever. :shrug:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
percussivemadness Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. according to a lot of posters on this site
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 11:06 PM by percussivemadness
we have been in a depression from the last 12 months. However to make this rather ridiculous claim, you have to ignore reality. Yes people are losing their jobs, yes its tough out there, but we are not in a depression nor are we likely to get into one. I grew up in England when the unemployment rate was 21.8 %, society didn`t fall apart, the world didn`t end, in fact only a few years later England was experiencing relative prosperity. Other than the bankrupt banks things are ticking over. What we are seeing are the effects of technology on the workforce. Its a new paradigm, there are opportunities out there, you just have to think somewhat differently and try taking a risk or two.

Of course, if you really want a depression to happen, may I suggest you spend time at freeperville with your like minded bottom feeders, where they are actively encouraging one so the "black man" is shown up for what he really is, apparently...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. "Other than the bankrupt banks things are ticking over"
I am not sure this should be trivialized!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
percussivemadness Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #29
39. What exactly am I trivialising?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. I am not betting we will
not end up with a full fledged depression. We are a consumer society not a manufacturing one anymore. The big banks are insolvent. It could go either way. Your remark to the poster that they should spend time in freeperville with like minded people was over the top and rude as hell.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
percussivemadness Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #30
38. rude? hardly..there is a pervading attitude on this board that manifests itself
as wanting a depression. That is exactly what Freeperville wants, a depression, so they will be vindicated in their racist bile and hatred of Obama. The reality is, LIBOR has just dropped to 1.5% from 5%, indicating that the banks are preparing to lend to each other again. You need to study your history before you start lambasting me for being rude, a statement of fact is a statement of fact, irrespective of whether it hurts yours or anyone elses feelings.

If you want a depression, if you want to undermine the president, this is the wrong board for you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. See post #19! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 03:13 AM
Response to Original message
33. We're heading in that direction...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. The chart really tells the story, Thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 06:31 AM
Response to Original message
36. It has been a Depression for awhile. As usual, history will choose an emblematic day
to say it started.

Oct 6th, 2008 - the first major market crash of the Greater Depression.

My 2 cents.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. I do appreciate your cents.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
40. Have to see it behind you? I don't. I've been using the D word for a while and snickering at
statements like "worst recession since World War II." Honey, we were not in ANY recession in WWII. People have just been twisting themselves into pretzels to avoid telling it like it is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed May 01st 2024, 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC