Federal judge rules Wisconsin (public) school district can hold graduation ceremonies in church

Source: Newser

A federal judge in Wisconsin has decided to allow a public school district to hold its graduation ceremonies in a church. U.S. District Judge Charles Clevert issued his ruling Tuesday in a lawsuit filed by Americans United for Separation of Church and State against a district in a Milwaukee suburb. The Elmbrook School District plans to use Elmbrook Church for the June 6 and 7 commencements of two high schools.

School district officials say they chose Elmbrook Church and its 3,200-seat capacity for convenience and comfort. The judge said holding the ceremony in a church does not necessarily constitute a church ceremony. The plaintiffs had argued that it would be an unconstitutional violation of the divide between church and government.

Read more: http://www.newser.com/article/d98in33o0/federal-judge-rules-wisconsin-school-district-can-hold-graduation-ceremonies-in-church.html

---

Article with more details here:

http://www.thonline.com/article.cfm?id=245414

A federal judge ruled Tuesday that a public school district in a Milwaukee suburb may continue to hold its graduation ceremonies in a church.
U.S. District Judge Charles Clevert issued his ruling in response to a lawsuit brought by Americans United for Separation of Church and State. The Washington, D.C., group had argued that the setting violated students' and parents' constitutional rights by creating an atmosphere that makes non-Christians uncomfortable.

The Elmbrook School District plans to use Elmbrook Church for Brookfield Central and East high schools' commencement ceremonies on Saturday and Sunday. School district officials say they chose Elmbrook Church and its 3,200-seat capacity for convenience and comfort.
"I'm relieved," Elmbrook Schools Superintendent Matt Gibson said. "The students are going to be able to graduate in their preferred location."

Addressing the court, Clevert said the "ceremony in the church does not necessarily constitute a church ceremony," according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.
Alex Luchenitser, senior litigation counsel for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, told The Associated Press they were disappointed in the decision.
"The students are going to be forced to go to church at the price of attending their own graduation," he said. "They're going to be forced to sit in a sanctuary facing an enormous cross for two hours, facing bibles, hymnal books in pews right in front of them."

Luchenitser said the organization would talk to its clients and did not plan to attempt to stop the graduation ceremonies from taking place. The organization filed the lawsuit on behalf of students, alumni and parents who are not Christian. Some belong to other faiths and others are atheists.
"At this point, technically we could file an appeal," Luchenitser said. "(But) it's unlikely we'd file an appeal of this particular ruling on the preliminary injunction motion because there's not really enough time for the court of appeals to adequately consider the matter."
...
snip
...
"The reason for moving off campus in the first place was the small gymnasiums, the lack of air conditioning, the lack of handicap accessibility, the need to ticket to limit the audience because of capacity," Gibson said.

This goes against everything our Constitution stands for - period. And the excuses are a joke, plain and simple.

does not make it an endorsement of religion this was a stupid lawsuit

Come ON. Do you actually believe what you wrote?

in many towns the church is the largest gathering place available. heck, I've been to a bar mitzvah in a church. many of them have easily covered religious iconography for other events. cover up the cross and remove the scriptures, and all of a sudden you have a nice big auditorium.

participate in some religious ceremony it's simply a venue for a graduation. Simply holding it in a church does not make it an endorsement.

Some right wing nut would maybe try and blow it up at the wrong time. And that would be a tragedy.

It defiles a mosque to allow non muslims inside the structure.

There is a mosque around here used for union meetings,

My favorite was the Mosque of Sultan Hassan in Cairo, Egypt, which thousands of tourists (Muslim and non) visit daily. It was breathtaking! http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g294201-d308890/Cairo:Egypt:Mosque.And.Madrasa.Of.Sultan.Hassan.html

Sheike Izza in Bahrain give a dispensation to the Grand Mosque to allow non muslims visit for educational purposes. However none of the other mosques in Bahrain would allow non muslims.

Whats your point?


-nnnm

They would have to drag me out in cuffs.

And while I did graduate from a Private, Christian High School - I see absolutely no sane reason for a public school to hold it's ceremony in a church that discriminates against others.

I'm assuming you are referring to the Separation of Church and State from the First Ammendment to the Constitution, but how does that apply here?

If they're not holding a religious ceremony and forcing people to participate in one, how is that unconstitutional?

What a bunch of shit.
"I'm relieved," Elmbrook Schools Superintendent Matt Gibson said. "The students are going to be able to graduate in their preferred location."

How many students is this assshole talking about? Apparently not all the students.

Both Brookfield East and Brookfield Central have football fields that could quite easily accommodate their respective graduating seniors.



Brookfield East High School



Brookfield Central High School

As far as I know, all high schools in my area use their football fields for graduation unless they have a sufficiently large auditorium. Hell, if it weren't for Miller Auditorium, Western Michigan University would hold their graduation at their Waldo Stadium, not the megachurch around the corner and up the road a piece.

Unless both football fields are somehow unavailable, and were going to be unavailable for some legitimate reason, there's simply no valid reason to hold their graduation ceremonies in a church when they already have a venue on the premises of each school which would be perfectly acceptable to everyone.

This judge didn't even look at Google Maps. What was the district's reasoning for wanting their graduation ceremonies held in a church? Were both fields undergoing "repairs" or something?

It don't bother me too much since there isn't an actual mass going on, and they've been doing it for a couple of years. I wish the article had been able to tell us if there was a history of complaints. If the school asked, i bet the bibles and prayer books can be put away for the occasion. It be nice if the church could make a few bucks over this arrangement too.

Most of the time I support Americans for Separation of Church and State, but this one was a waste of time. It's nothing more than a building. Churches let outside groups use their facilities all the time, it's part of helping out the community.

They're earning money by whoring (my apologies to sex workers) out their worship space for non-religious purposes.

Electric, cleaning, toiletries, water, custodial, wear and tear--none of that comes for free.
I am sure that nobody wants to let hundreds of graduates and their families come in and trash a place then take care of it for free. Churches budget just like any other business so there's nothing wrong with charging.

I think I saw something with Jesus on it.

I was so offended.

I never felt offended or as if Christianity was being imposed on me as I voted.

In fact, one time I made small talk with one of the church members. They had this just lovely chandelier. We talked about it for 20 minutes. Never once did I feel pressured by the blood of Christ or whatever it is. I did feel moved to take her advice and seek out the particular electrician they use, however.

*shrug*

or otherwise showing discrimination (I do think any religious symbols ought to be put away or covered), it's a building. Just a building.

If the kind of church used would have made any difference at all in the willingness of the officials to use it or the attendees to go there then this ruling is bullshit.

Edited..

Are there any large, air conditioned, handicap-accessible Satanist churches in the area?

Assume there are and then answer the question.

I predict that you will not do so.

Assume there there are... ok. Let's hold our graduation there. Pretty easy to me.

(Prognostications are fun-- but quite often wrong...)

it was the only affordable space available with adequate parking, my graduation was a disaster, there wasn't enough parking at the hotel where it was being held so they directed people to park at Disneyland and the hotel picked them up with their shuttle bus.

something could not bother anyone and still violate the Establishment Clause.

They should take down or cover the cross if it's really about finding a convenient place for the ceremony. But I bet they won't.

Ok so I'm getting that some people think that holding a civil ceremony for a public school in a church = teh bad.

Let's assume that they're not going to have a prayer, and be led by a priest, and that the ceremony itself won't be having any religious components...Just that they're in a church, there's a cross up behind the podium, and hymnals in the pews.

this is a problem why? People that are so offended by it, would you also be offended if someone invited you to their wedding in a church? Or a baptism? Granted those usually are 'relgious' ceremonies, but were you offended by having to sit there in a church?

if you'd never even go in a church to go to your best friend's wedding, or your nephew's baptism...why? The symbols only have power if you give them power.

I was not raised Christian, and I'm not one now (I'm a Unitarian Universalist), but this wouldn't offend me if I were graduating, or if I were attending for a friend or family member. If they held an actual religious service I'd probably be offended, but simply holding it in the church wouldn't bother me.

Sounds to me like the school didn't have alot of options of places to hold the ceremony that had air conditioning, handicap accessibility, and enough space, and they're just trying to make as many people as comfortable as possible for the event, and have enough room to get everyone in that wants to attend. I just don't get what the problem is by simply holding it there.

to the bride and groom, only to government.

I am not sure if I think this story presents an establishment clause violation or not. I want to think about it more, but your attempted analogy just does not work.

Also, the Establishment Clause did not say "If people aren't offended, it's okay, though."

NT!

I've had to go to churches to do certain activies (like vote) and seen the big crosses in the sanctuary and it doesn't put pressure on me. It's not like people don't KNOW it's a christian church, or that there won't be a cross there.

It's not like the cross somehow puts pressure on the student to be one with Christianity.

That's just absurd. People can't even SEE a cross without feeling uncomfortably pressured? They're freaking everywhere in this country. If it makes you feel uncomfortable you need to learn to live with it, cause it's part of being a non-christian in this country.

Being forced to read from teh bible, or being led in prayer. I'd have a HUGE problem with. But just being in a church. if someone were to bitch about it to me in person I'd probably just tell them to grow up.

http://tinyurl.com/pd2fg5

http://www.brookfieldnow.com/multimedia/photos/42557107.html?c=y&index=1&page=0

Seems to have a fairly high tech set up i.e. the ceremony can be taped:

http://tinyurl.com/psw797

Unlike a Catholic Church which tends to have explicit signs of the Cross all around the Church, and statures and other icons throughout the building.

Lets us remember Church started out as remains of Copies of Roman Meeting Places and retained that functions for centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire. Some people claim churches are patterned after the Temple of Solomon, but only in the sense a Church was a place for people to meet. In Ancient times (Except for various Pantheons) temples to the gods were restricted to the priests only, the people stayed outside and asked for the temples priests to make they homage to the gods for them. The Christian Church changed this, moving the people inside which require the Church to be much larger then most temples.

In American History, the New England tradition of calling the Village Church a "Meetinghouse" and to hold any and all meeting of the town in such church lasts to this day. This mostly follow new Englanders move west in the 1800s but its influence is felt in most areas north of the Mason-Dixon Line. It is a long tradition that this Church seems to part of.

There are crosses a plenty inside.

Half of Brookfield and Waukesha are members of this cult.

The real issue is how many crosses and other symbols of the faith is in the Church? If excessive then the school can not hold it in the Church, but if only "incidental" not a problem. Thus it is up a a Judge to decide.

casinos. :shrug: As several people have said upthread, it's all about finding a location that is large enough, has enough parking, and can accommodate people with disabilities. I think it's more important that all of the students' families and friends can come and celebrate than where the event is held.

that our church was the largest indoor community space available year round. High school graduations are held at the Memorial center which is a skating rink during the winter. It can get pretty nasty sitting there in the heat. Our church was the location for concerts since it had more audience seating than the high school auditorium.



If graduation was held in a local sports arena, would people here demand all advertisements be covered?

.

is so compelling, wouldn't the school district be encouraging drinking if they held a function at a spot that displayed beer ads?

may be a great discussion to have, but that is not what this thread is about. Encocuraging bad habits or not is an entirely different discussion from violating the Constitution or not. (And, going down the advertising road would also lead down a garden path because advertising is speech that the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment protects, at least to a degree.)

We can certtainly debate what the Establishment Clause actually means. But, whatever the Establishment Clause forbids (which is debatable), it forbids it in absolute terms. It says nothing about something being okay, as long as it does not encourage people to be Christian (or okay as long as it does not encourage people to be religious). Court cases have not used that standard, either.

In another post on this thread, I did say that, IMO, holding the graduation in the church would not violate the Establishment Clause under certain conditions.

And there are bibles in the pews with info on joining Elmbrook homosexual haters "cult".

money goes to support anti-gay legislation nationwide.

Fucking ridiculous.

In plain language how this is an endorsement of religion.


-nnnm

1/ No simmilar secular facility is available to the school

2/ The church is reimbursed, but does not make a profit

3/ Symbols that can reasonably be covered are covered and prayer books and hymnals are out of sight.

the church is located right next to the school, and provides a bigger (and more comfortable) venue as the seats in the school auditorium do not comfortably seat an adult.