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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 01:45 PM
Original message
MI Supreme Court gives judges authority in how witnesses' dress, including veils worn by Muslim wome
Source: AP

Michigan Supreme Court gives judges authority in how witnesses' dress, including veils worn by Muslim women
by David Eggert | The Associated Press
Wednesday June 17, 2009, 1:32 PM


LANSING -- The Michigan Supreme Court on Wednesday voted to give judges authority over how witnesses dress in court after a Muslim woman refused to remove her veil while testifying in a small claims case.

A statewide court rule letting judges regulate the appearance of witnesses -- such as asking them to remove face coverings -- was approved by a 5-2 vote. The dissenters said there should be an exception for people whose clothing is dictated by their religion.

Justices heard last month from a Muslim woman who sued because her small claims case was dismissed when she refused to remove her veil.

Hamtramck District Judge Paul Paruk told Ginnnah Muhammad he needed to see her face to judge her truthfulness. The 45-year-old from Detroit kept her niqab on during the 2006 hearing.

Read more: http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/06/michigan_supreme_court_gives_j.html#more
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's not "dictated by their religion." There's nothing in the Koran saying women must
hide their faces at all times. Look at the pictures from Iran. The women cover their heads, but not their faces.
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Tempest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. It's in at least two places in the Koran

Al-Ahzab, (verse 59), what can be translated as, "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the woman of the believers to draw their Jalalib all over their bodies. That will be better. That they should be known so not to be annoyed. And Allah is ever oft-forgiving, most merciful."

An-Nour, (verse 31), what can be translated as, "And tell the believing woman to lower their gaze, and protect their private parts, and do not show off their adornment except only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna, and not to reveals their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband’s fathers, their sons, their husband’s sons, their brothers or their brother’s sons, or their sister’s sons, or their woman, or the female slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigor, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And beg Allah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful."

http://islam1.org/khutub/Hijab.htm
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Only the prophet's wife was required to veil her face and hair. Noone else.
You've taken the verses out of context as well. There are other nuances dealing with women's dress but none of them say "cover your face!"

I agree with the judge on this: there's no religious requirement to veil. And judging facial expressions and body language are part of the process of judging truthfulness for most people.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Where is the respect for OUR culture?
Edited on Wed Jun-17-09 02:35 PM by imdjh
All we ever hear about from some folks is various versions of the "ugly American" expecting those abroad to know our language and culture and to accommodate us. Where is the respect for our culture? Where is the respect for our culture when people sue to have proceedings or services delivered in a language other than English? Where is the respect for our culture when cab drivers, who as an industry have been beaten into submission for acceptance and equal treatment of others, suddenly demand the right to discriminate based on a foreign culture infused with Islam?

Where is the respect for our culture?
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Tempest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Our culture?

I'm not even going to touch that.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. Respect for American culture starts with a love of jazz!
After all, it's one of the truly American art forms. :)
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. I love jazz.
And I have always wanted a house with an elevator.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. *golfclap*
Well played, sir.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #26
40. As is the blues.. n/t
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. I couldn't agree more. (nt)
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
43. "in a language other than English?"

WTF?

You mean, like, Cherokee?
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-20-09 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #14
62. The issue was not about her culture.
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. I don't see anything in there
about covering your face
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Tempest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Look up what a Jalalib is


n/t
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Went to the first link that
showed up on Yahoo and it's a command to cover their bodies, their heads and their necks. Maybe what they call "believing women" should live somewhere other than here. And spare me the PC nonsense - anybody who believes that women (but not men) need to cover from head to toe in order to satisfy their religion gets no respect from me. I have no problem with a head scarf and find many of them very beautiful. The veil across the face is nothing but misogyny.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-20-09 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #19
61. Apparently, there are differences of opinion. One source says a dress. But
this issue is not what it is, but what it was. What was a jalalib when the Koran was written?
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
31. Then again, 2:282 says a woman's testimony is less reliable than a man's
And that's actually a verse about small claims court, oddly enough...
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
33. well at least SLAVERY is ok in the Koran thank gosh. nt
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-20-09 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #33
63. Bible, too.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
25. It is dictated by culture.
There should be some element of respect there.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. not when the culture
diminishes the ability of the finder of fact to judge credibility. that's a fundamental element of our court system.

open testimony and the right to assess and confront witnesses.

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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #35
44. Ummm....

Okay, so, we are going to judge credibility of someone who has been put into an uncomfortable position?

I gather that you are opposed to blind judges and jurors, yes?
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #44
54. no, i;m not opposed to blind jurors
for obvious reasons.  a blind juror is able to COMPLEMENT the
sighted jurors.  the sighted jurors will have the ability to
assess visual aspects.  a blind juror (as is well accepted in
biology) learns to enhance their other senses and often hears
things etc. that sighted people might miss.

this is thus a COMPLEMENTARY situation, where different skills
can combine among different people.

but if a witness is allowed to veil themselves, then the
ability of ANY finder of fact (sighted jurors) is diminished.

justice matters more than cultural sensitivity.  period.

if you were accused of a crime, and witness was testifying
against you, you have the RIGHT to confront that witness.  you
cannot properly confront them if their face is covered.  nor
can the jury properly assess.

the law is always about tradeoffs.  the diminishment of
justice and the obfuscation of truth finding is a much worse
slight than forcing a person not to cover their face.

we don't make special concessions to religious preferences in
a courtroom that hurt the cause of justice and truth finding.

the search for truth is an imperfect process already.

i've seen many witnesses lie in court.  witnesses lie.  it
sucks, but it's true.  we don't facilitate their ability to do
so by allowing them to mask their face
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-19-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. "if you were accused of a crime"....

This is a civil case... and a small claims one at that. This is not a criminal proceeding.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-20-09 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #44
65. A judge or jury is capable of factoring in her discomfort (and probably resentment).
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. Sorry. What if their culture allows them to only wear a tiny loincloth?
We have to allow them to show up in our public court in a loincloth?

Nope. The Muslim women can keep their head covered, but their face must remain uncovered in our courts of law. Juries must see their faces to determine if they're being truthful, and to determine if it's even the right person testifying.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #25
50. why? this isn't Saudi Arabia.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-20-09 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #25
64. People have been sentenced to death or set free based upon credibility of the
witness(es, much of which is based upon observation by judges or juries of facial expressions. Our judicial system is fundamental to this country.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-20-09 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #25
66. It's not dictated by culture, but by religion. And, in some places, the "religious" will bring
harm to you unless you cover your face, whether or not you are Muslim.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. Yes, there is, but the Shiite view is that it requires cover of hair only
This is one of the Splits between the Shiites and the Sunnis. The Shiites interpret the restriction as meaning the traditional Arab coverage, which left the face uncovered but the hair covered. The Sunni take this one step further to require the face to be covered. Thus the female protesters in Iran (A Shiite State) do NOT cover their faces, while it is common among the Afghanistan people for it is mostly Sunni.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #30
49. The Sunnis in Turkey or Malayasia do not customarily
wear veils. Nor do the Sunni's in Bahrain. The wearing of the veil is more a cultural tradition than a religious requirement.
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konnichi wa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. Just as long as they're not mocking the judge

:rofl:
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cslinger59 Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. Unless it is somehow pertinent to a case....
Edited on Wed Jun-17-09 02:07 PM by cslinger59
Why the hell does it matter that the woman wanted to wear a veil.

Now I don't think one should be dressed like a slob or naked or have questionable T-Shirts etc. (F' U etc.) but if somebody wants to dress in traditional garb then they should damn sight be allowed to unless it somehow hinders the proceedings. (Removal of veil might need to be done to show bruises or something in an abuse case for instance.)

I could see a judge asking someone to remove a ball cap or hat in their court as it is traditionally polite to do so and isn't a heritage thing.

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chicago legal pro Donating Member (169 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. It is always pertinent to the case
Judges and juries always look at the face and body language of a witness when they are testifying. It is one of the reasons that in most cases we require personal testimony rather than written statements to the court.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. +1 nt
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #7
45. This Is Why We BAN Blind People From the Bench And Juries

I'm surprised that many here do not understand why blind people are not allowed to be judges or jurors.
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. Don't you think it helps
in judging someone's veracity if you can see her face? There is no reason for a face to be covered.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
27. the accused has a right to face their accuser
if the accuser's face is covered then the accused's rights have been violated.

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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #27
46. Go Look Up The Definition Of "Small Claims"

...and get back to me on this "accused" and "accuser" stuff.

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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
36. because the finder of fact
which is a judge in small claims court, and a jury in most trials has the right, nay the obligation to determine credibility of a witness.

that process is hampered by allowing a witness to veil their face.

remember that , as communication experts agree, 70%+ of communication is NONtextual.

it has nothing to do with decorum.

it has to do with an OPEN coutrroom proceeeding where a witness can be assessed.

people watching the trial should be allowed to wear veils.

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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #36
47. This Is Why Blind People Are Banned From Court

Sheesh... it's pretty simple.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. the issue isn't are they banned from court
that's a false analogy.

the issue is the finder of fact. also, fwiw, blind people naturally have enhanced their OTHER senses (hearing etc) as a compensatory measure. that's established fact. a blind person on a jury (i have no idea if they serve on juries or not) would thus have those enhanced perceptions as well as the ability to talk to other jurors during deliberation. the blind juror can discuss what they heard, etc. and the sighted jurors can add about what they saw. that's a complementary process.

so, you're analogy is absurd.

like i said, a veil is fine WITHIN the courtroom. it is not appropriate for a WITNESS to testify with.

cultural sensitivity takes a back seat to justice.

and part of our justice system is that the finder of fact has the duty to determine credibility of witnesses.

witnesses lie all the fucking time. sometimes they get away with it. FACILITATING their ability to lie is not conducive to justice.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-19-09 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. So your point is that whether she can testify with a veil

...depends on whether the jury is blind, right?
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. judging truthiness by the face? isn't that how we got a movie-star President? n/t
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GinaMaria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Actually, this is how many people determine
Edited on Wed Jun-17-09 02:47 PM by GinaMaria
what's going on. I use it all the time, to understand what my management is really saying. Words tell you so little. Never believe someone's words, believe their actions including facial cues. They've based a television series on this. It's called Lie to Me (very entertaining). This is also part of an EI (Emotional Intelligence) assessment.

Edited for clarification:

The show, Lie to Me, demonstrates the use of micro-expressions which most people cannot see. EI assessments focus on longer lasting displayed body and facial cues.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. Yay for the dissenters
The Flying Spaghetti Monster has decreed that I must appear in court in buttless chaps and a feather boa. I can't wait for my jury summons.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I was thinking of doing something similar at work.
Since I regard the mens business suit to be a relic of the 18th if not the 17th century, I thought maybe I would come to work in formal clothing from the tenth century and see if I could get away with it.

I feel the same way about this veil thing. If you want to lose your civil case, then wear the veil. But where someone's freedom is at stake, where someone has the right to face his accuser, or where your testimony might set someone free, respect for this country and its courts says that you don't show up in court wearing a mask.
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louis-t Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
9. I'm sorry, I have a problem with this.
I think our court system is set up where seeing a person's face is of great importance. She might as well send in a tape of her testimony. If someone from this country goes to another country and demands to be accomodated, we would deride him. I'm sorry, I just can't take this woman's side. She has the right to dress as she pleases, but not to ask that local custom or court protocol be changed for her.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. well said nt
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get the red out Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
15. We have a secular country
I don't see a problem. It deals with court procedure not the person's everyday life.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
18. Fine with me. (nt)
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Politicalboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
21. Judge their truthfulness?
Edited on Wed Jun-17-09 04:02 PM by Politicalboi
So the guy behind the petition a few months ago testifying against the government on torture was lying? Because we couldn't see his face to tell if he was telling the truth? I am against wearing turbans and veils for drivers license, because driving is a privilege not a right. But this is just bullshit. What is the big deal. In a court of law your not suppose to get convicted for how you act or look. I'm really surprised at the responses here about this. What if it was a case against a brutal cop and she needed to testify to lock him up, but didn't want to show her face? Would that be ok? Or should she be denied justice because of a veil?
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. She needs to make a choice
I believe the very wording of the 6th amendment is the right "to face your accuser". She doesn't like it, live somewhere else.
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Politicalboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. But we do have
Edited on Wed Jun-17-09 04:11 PM by Politicalboi
Cases where the defendant is in another room watching it on a TV. Either for being disruptive or threatening. Or a witness is testifying from close circuit TV. Those cases are valid. Granted I'm not one to take the side of turbans and veils, but you can't always tell by the face for truth. You need facts and law. And yes I would like to see the face of a person when talking to them, but if it's their religion so be it. These judges will make a power play with this. Some may allow and others don't. I don't think this is a big deal to allow veils. Was Clinton wearing a veil when he said " I did not have sex with that woman" It didn't matter we all knew he was lying. LOL!
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #24
52. Those exceptions are for
very few cases and in order to protect the witness. Rules are rules and the constitution is the constitution - you get to FACE your accuser. If she refuses to uncover her face, she loses the case, that simple.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #23
48. WTF Does The 6th Amendment Have To Do With SMALL CLAIMS? /nt
Edited on Thu Jun-18-09 04:32 AM by jberryhill
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #48
51. Court is court
You still testify under oath. Let me know when the amend the constitution to allow for the different levels of court. She doesn't like it, she is free to leave.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-19-09 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. The Sixth Amendment is about CRIMINAL proceedings, not CIVIL proceedings

You are wrong on two points. Please read the 6th amendment:

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.


1. Civil suits are not "criminal prosecutions". The Sixth Amendment has nothing to do with civil suits.

2. In a criminal prosecution, the right is "to be confronted with the witnesses".
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #21
37. it denies justice
to allow a witness to conceal their face.

you don't understand how court works.

as somebody who has testified scores of times (i'm a cop), this is how it works.

the credibility of a witness is something that the "finder of fact" is supposed to assess.

in most trials, it's a jury. sometimes it's a judge (like in a bench trial or a small claims hearing).

finder of fact is allowed to use voice, facial expressions, gestures, etc. not just what the person SAYS in their assessment of the person's credibility.

if she doesn't want to show here face, TOUGH.

the integrity of the system, and the power of the finder of fact to make assessments is more important than what she wants.

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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
28. Good ruling from what is otherwise a Kangaroo Court. nt
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
34. i agree
our court system is based upon open witness testimony . in rare circ's like very young sex crime victims, we allow close circuit testimony.

but the finder of fact must be able to assess the witness, and the other party must be able to confront.

veiling one's face is not consistent with this.

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Crowman1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
39. This whole veil thing was popularized by the oppresion loving Saudis.
Edited on Wed Jun-17-09 09:13 PM by Crowman1979
And some muslims follow their lead all because mecca is on their property. Makes me wish the Ottoman Empire was still in charge.
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tj2001 Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
41. What about nudists???
They have rights too.
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
55. Sorry... our courts and our society are SECULAR... you live here, you follow our court rules

Your religion does NOT give you the right to violate our court rules and laws.


Sorry.... tough shit.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-19-09 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. ...And Swear On The Bible

...in our "secular" courts...
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annarbor Donating Member (543 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-20-09 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. No one is forced to swear on the bible....
in court...

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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-20-09 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #60
68. gee.... why not?

You mean people do not have to abandon their religious beliefs?
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-20-09 05:28 AM
Response to Original message
67. As an aside, the majority of the Michigan Supremes are women!
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