Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

Source: Associated Press

WASHINGTON – The Supreme Court has ruled that white firefighters in New Haven, Conn., were unfairly denied promotions because of their race, reversing a decision that high court nominee Sonia Sotomayor endorsed as an appeals court judge.

New Haven was wrong to scrap a promotion exam because no African-Americans and only two Hispanic firefighters were likely to be made lieutenants or captains based on the results, the court said Monday in a 5-4 decision. The city said that it had acted to avoid a lawsuit from minorities.

The ruling could alter employment practices nationwide, potentially limiting the circumstances in which employers can be held liable for decisions when there is no evidence of intentional discrimination against minorities.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090629/ap_on_go_su_co/us_supreme_court_firefighters_lawsuit_4

when it also included a hispanic firefighter. Those evil genius bigots in the New Haven fire department somehow made a test that would only allow whites and hispanics to pass. I guess it used terms and phrases that only hispanics and whites would understand :eyes:.

Another oddity that I've never been able to grasp.

That ought to do it.

good one. :)

NO MATTER WHAT RACE YOU ARE, you will fail one of these two questions.



PS - there were 22 countries on the West coast of Africa last i checked but that was a decade ago a several have changed.

The plot thickens. :)

(as it were) and found to be correct before NH used it. That's the real rub of this.

This was a stinker of a situation across the board. There wasn't going to be a good answer, and absolutely none that would satisfy all parties.

There were two things to look at here - one part going way before the test and looking at why the minority candidates were not successful with the test, and the other looking at the test itself some more.

There's nothing cut and dried about this case.

by racially diverse cities' fire depts. that could have been used and that had yielded racially diverse outcomes. They involved use of simulation and past performance reviews and weren't so heavily dependent on multiple choice tests. The city of New Haven did not bother to use those tests and for that, it is guilty of gross mismanagement from the get go.

And please point out examples where the test was biased. You know stuff like like, "Buffy's badminton net in the Hampton's catches fire, given that this is a regulation sized badminton net, how much perrier should be used to douse the fire."

that designed it. So your little "buffy" straw man argument is moot...

bias? Somehow the miraculous test can let hispanics,whites, and people with severe learning disabilities pass with high grades, but not others? No wonder it is a highly guarded secret. :eyes:

then we'll discuss it...

physical aptitude? hand eye coordination? Sometimes written tests are needed, especially in a supervisory position.

of simulation, past performance reviews (actual experience) and other ways to assess judgement skills, actual leadership ability as evidenced by past performance, ability to quickly and accurately assess a fire situation, in addition to some written questions plus oral testing. They have worked just fine in other cities, what's your problem?

Please feel free to cite evidence.

were already seasoned fire fighters.

So the real test is whether fire depts. using racially balanced testing methods have been successful. Please feel free to cite evidence that they are not.

then better captains then. The key word is "better."

If so, do you have any information on what constituted the remaining 40%?

I've wondered whether skills, simulation, past performance reviews or interviews made up that 40%, if my memory is correct.

If the 40% was composed of the elements I suggested above, would that change your view of the test?

Just curious.

presentation and reading comprehension for such jobs :eyes:

Please stop with these constant straw men arguments. It's pretty transparent...

because you haven't been able to produce a shred of evidence that these tests are disriminatory.

or maybe you won't but at least i have addressed this elsewhere. please read them.

Why are these tests disciminatory?

to reading them since you are so interested and passionate...

And its easy to see why you can't answer the question. :rofl:

:rofl:

actual evidence, that you claim that you have provided it elsewhere in the thread. I've seen you post that identical response in several other places. Its an interesting strategy, but smacks of desperation when you can't cite a single post or web link supporting your assertions. :eyes:

where I outlined my position. You yourself responded to many of them. Do you forget conversations you just participated in often? If so, stop arguing on DU and get some professional help...

I'm waiting on any evidence that these tests are disriminatory.

Here she writes:

"The court today holds that New Haven has not demonstrated “a strong basis in evidence” for its plea. In so holding, the court pretends that “the city rejected the test results solely because the higher scoring candidates were white.”

That pretension, essential to the court’s disposition, ignores substantial evidence of multiple flaws in the tests New Haven used. The court similarly fails to acknowledge the better tests used in other cities, which have yielded less racially skewed outcomes."

Hmm, looks a lot like what I posted on this thread before we had a chance to get a transcript of the dissent in this case.

You might do well to also read up on the failings of "pencil and paper" tests to determine leadership which is in an article in today's NYT.

I'm giving you the link to my source for Ginsberg's quote (see how nice I am?) but I'm sure you can navigate getting to the NYT,that is if you really want to read about it...

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/06/30/opinion/doc4a4981b20ef7c833992662.txt

Have a great day!:hi:

Also, you do know that 3 black individuals and 2 hispanic individuals did pass this test? I guess they didn't get the memo that they were supposed to fail. Also, the story of the dyslexic man who quit his 2nd job and hired someone for 1000$ to put all the reading materials onto audio for him is fascinating. I wonder how they crafted the test to allow him to pass.

And the Times article today says essentially what I've been saying, that pen and pencil tests are flawed ways of determining leadership and points to many other cities who have successfully used the tests that I referred to in my posts. And it points out that New Haven is essentially behind the times in crafting these newer, more accurate tests.

When you have done your research, which I would hope would include your point by point rebuttal of same with full links to back up your assertions, then we'll talk...

I'm sure that you will admit that your pen and paper tests that you took (I noticed you ignored the oral part of the firefighter exam) were inherently flawed and your degree is likely illegitimate. I've always wondered why we place emphasis on the MCAT to go to medical school. Can we really place such emphasis on pen and paper tests to determine who are the best doctors? There should be an open admission to all medical schools. :rofl:

My Masters degree does not qualify me to be in the leadership of the NHFD. Unless they wish to know what I had to say about the Austrian School of economic theory of Eugen Bom Bawerk and Frederick vonWieser. Hmm, any takers NHFD? No? My goodness, why not? I am so GOOD at bs-ing my way thru an grad level Econ course...

:rofl:

The way I interpret it, the original finding was a remedy for the fact that society has afforded less preparation to some and more to others.

at least in my experience. The oral board is made up of officers from surrounding communities. And is based upon the candidates response to several "Scenarios". e.g. 1867 Built three story residence, 2AM smoke in the basement. Assign units, crews, develop strategy etc.

choice tests and that the test was 60% multiple choice.

How does the color of one's skin or hair impact choosing the best answer out of four or five?

means a lot. Being from a society centered around an oral tradition might disadvantage one in a written word culture.

I have to wonder though - is the main purpose of the test to yield racially diverse outcomes or to yield the best prospects? I'm uncomfortable with the former. And the main plaintiff here also struggled with multiple choice - he paid someone to read to him as he studied, because of his disability.

I'm not in NH and have to depend on the Courant - so I don't doubt you got better info. But I do think this is a difficult situation all around.

yield best prospects? Diverse outcomes are desireable outcomes in many respects. Diversity is a strength in a society, not a deterrent to strength.

Especially in a dangerous profession such as firefighting.

Diversity for the sake of diversity here certainly has been no mistake.

When I first started here almost twenty years ago, we did not have much diversity. As the first IT contact most offices ever had with HQ, I quickly found myself in constant disputes with my fellow IT professionals in HQ because of their indifference to the needs of other offices: paper size, date formats, etc.

Today, that has all changed. By transferring/promoting employees from our local offices, we have achieved greater diversity which has brought with it greater understanding of the needs in our offices. I can not imagine someone here today saying, "they should just use American size paper," which was the actual response for YEARS from IT management when I first came aboard and started advocating for changes to report layouts to accomodate both imperial (US) and metric sized paper.

Would diversity help a fire department? Lack of diversity will certainly impact morale in the department. And there may be cultural issues that come into play when entering a predominately Black neighborhood to conduct official business. I can't think of any, but then I am neither a fireman/EMT, nor African-American. So I would be less likely to think of any such issues.

Which is, of course, the point.

should be in the recruitment and development of minority candidates.

"Lack of diversity will certainly impact morale in the department"

So would enforced diversity that involves perfectly qualified individuals being passed over in favor of "pro-diversity candidates".

If you need to promote diversity at the level of position test results...it is TOO LATE!!!

are you looking for a group that's properly diverse first and properly skilled second or are you looking first for the best people for the job?

The test shouldn't be such that it discriminates against African Americans, but I do not think the primary purpose of the test is to yield a correctly diverse field of candidates for promotion.

Certainly a well-designed test could yield the most skilled group that also is diverse. In the best possible outcome, that's what would happen. But I think we're looking only at the test, and not beyond it to all of the impediments that lead to a test yielding a less diverse group. Education, upbringing, experience... You're not going to solve the problems of discimination with one situation. And you shouldn't be solving it by setting different standards for different groups of candidates.

Other cities have used these tests and they are not failed to find leaders. What's the problem with using them?

since we haven't seen the test, or even gotten many details about it, that's hard to judge.

Also, of course, different cities have different populations and the results (as far as diversity) will probably vary. I think it's tricky to sort of reverse engineer these things, though - looking at the results in a test that's been given and then deciding based on the diversity of the top people to judge how effective the test was, you know?

There very well may be more work to be done on the tests, I don't doubt that. Work that should have been done before the test was given.

The white firefighters should not have been put through this process. I think we would have had a fairer test if another one, tried and true, had been used. It doesn't mean, however, that a fairer test would be a zero sum game, that is a fallacy. Both white and black would have come out fairly. Why does this thing have to be painted in stark black and white? Some people on this board are seriously distorting this issue by inferring that a more racially balanced test would result in ONLY black candidates getting promoted. I have to wonder why they are doing that...

The test used was based on a core test and procedures that the company has been using for many selections. It is customized to meet local regulations, update to fires codes etc. It was not a brand new never used instrument.

and other tests could provide that...

who punted, based purely on number.

I don't agree that it was "enough" but I do think the city should have used a better test to avoid such an outcome, but due to its incompetence it didn't. No excuses for Mayor DeStefano. He is guilty of gross mismanagement and affirmative action is taking a toll as a result...great...

possible, given the unwillingness of the proprietor of the test to make it public and the unwillingness of New Haven to have the test tested. Interesting that, in the absence of evidence one way or another, about the content of the test, some here are willing to leap to the conclusion that it was valid, despite its disparate impact. White folks are just that much smarter? I don't buy that automatically. Don't know why any other fair person would.


A further question is whether the test was valid, based upon what it was testing for. Board members and others said it was meaningless for that purpose.

(I linked sources for the above comments in Reply 175.)

3 Black individuals and 2 Hispanics individuals did pass, but ZERO Native Americans passed. Nor do I think there is even one Native American who has EVER been a captain in New Haven. There needs to be a separate lawsuit to address this issue. Also, the Hispanic individuals may also want to engage in another lawsuit since they were disparately impacted more than the Black individuals.

leadership. Many of us on this board have been used to being subjected to "cramming" for an exam. Isn't it great? Shows we're better than everyone else, right? Hey, we "worked hard" for our "merit."

Well, guess what? Many fire depts. across the U.S no longer use such written exams. They use actual experience and simulation instead.

Which one would YOU prefer ifyou had a fire at your house?

I'll take Door 2, thank you very much...

and vet school entrance exam. They should void all current med and vet students admission. How can we possibly trust the mcat and vcat?

The firefighters taking this test were all seasoned firefighters who had passed their basic testing in order to qualify as firefighters...

undergraduate testing as well. Not sure why you think there is a big difference.

cannot compare them. I'm waiting for one of your patented "I explained it elsewhere in the thread" responses. :)

Too bad you won't open your mind to something beyond your patented assumptions, which you clearly do not wish to be disturbed...

But it may be a new classic :).

in Ricci. Her argument = my argument. To help you find it better, scroll down to page 55 of 93 (it will say that in a little box located at the bottom of your screen). This is a pdf file. If you can't read it then you need adobe. Do you need help locating that?

If there is any further spoon feeding you need, please feel free to start whimpering (just please do not kick the tray off of your high chair, tho).

Link here:http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/08pdf/07-1428.pdf

I've been mining you for facts though. Justice Ginsburg also fully supported Kelo.

:shrug:

which makes sense.

Justice Ginsburg, distinguished jurist, justice in the United States Supreme Court and a proven progressive vs. WriteDown, ??????????

And again, what does Kelo have to do with Ricci, exactly???

I asked why we can trust the vcat and mcat, but can't trust the firefighter's captain's exam. You didn't like that question so you deflected to a separate issue. If you want to have a linear discussion then I can do that, but these circular debates do not help your argument.

need to know. Like what are the rules and regulations that govern their position. They need to know how to obtain, understand and impliment these regulations.

Written testing is partly a test of the ability to prepare for and comprehend what is being tested. Those who best determine what will be tested, research that material, prepare and then present knowlege of that material are better suted to be quick learners in ANY field.

before they are used. The rejection out of hand and more importantly the willingness of lower courts to not do their job and just to look at the numbers set this up.

technically also white.

themselves white. Truthfully, there are only about 5 races (anthropologically) and probably 97% of people could not name even two.

It was the "Summary Judgment" that the District Court ordered that was on appeal.

Now, the case will actually go to trial in Federal District Court.

At least I think that was the plan.

They've done more damage than good lately.

this is one of the few good decisions. Not unlike opposition to Kelo.

a simple failed test. It seems that the test was rigged. They erased Brown vs Wade. They've been ruling against protections for women (between abortion and equal pay issues). I don't think its good to design a system to keep people from advancing.

Test was rigged by the national testing company?

IMO the city and the lower courts failed because they took the numbers only and did not look at the underlying facts.

Would not a simulation test demanding more of a judgement of skills in a perilous situation be a better test?

That is the difference here, not just a recitation of some dry facts.

to predict, prepare, understand, and provide the correct answer.

My question for you is, how comfortable are you with being so completely in agreement with conservaties appointed by RW presidents? It seems odd for me that people on Democratic Underground would take such a sweeping view...maybe a few points here or there but the whole ball of wax? I have no problem with you taking this view and calling yourself a conservative but I do think it is cognitively dissonant to insist you are a liberal...

Because these people aren't individuals who took the tests individually but were then lumped into a group and denied promotions because not enough of their peers in a certain racial group achieved adequate scores.

It isn't that no blacks passed the exam, because they did. They just didn't pass at the same rates as the whites who took the test.

57% of whites and hispanics passed the Captain's exam as opposed to 38% of blacks.
48% of whites and hispanics passed the Lieutenant exam as opposed to 32% of blacks.

New Haven didn't deny them promotions because of a biased exam, instead, they didn't promote anyone because they have a rule that requires positions to be filled by one of the top 3 test scorers and the top scorers were all white and hispanic. You can argue that the rule is discriminatory, but you can't rule that the white firefighters are wrong to sue or to win the suit. They took the test. They did what they had to do.

New Haven fucked up, not the firefighters, and not the justices who made the decision.

royally screwed this up and I'm furious. Mayor DeStefano and his group of Einsteins at city hall managed to damage affirmative action through their own arrogance and incompetence. Did you know that the mayor is running for re-election this year?

That sounds a bit...bigoted.

Have you ever been to Rural West Virgina? "White men" can struggle as much as any other skin color.

We do know the test depended heavily on a written, multiple choice test, not one using simulation and other methods of determining leadership skills.

IMO, the answer probably lies in the fact that not all skills are dependent on an individual's ability to take a written test. And test taking is a skill normally developed and honed in predominantly white schools, both public and private. Kids who grow up drilled in this will of course have stronger skills in test taking. Kids whose schools did not emphasize this skill set will be disadvantaged. The real question is whether this skill set is that important in leadership of a fire dept. As someone who lives in New Haven and is dependent on my local fire dept. if I have a fire in my home, I don't really give a rat's ass about test taking; I do care about leadership skills, ability to make good judgment under risky circumstances, and ability to lead a racially diverse department of firefighters. Think about it...

you have to look at how kids are being taught.

As someone who was on an "academic" track all through my lily white school system in Dallas I knew full well that my success in college was dependent on my test taking and essay writing skills. It was drummed into me. It was drummed into my kids and it is being drummed into my grandkids. So naturally we would think that a written test must be "fair."

Look around, the world is more diverse than perhaps you think. I have awakenend to this fact...

What school in the U.S. does not have tests?

What school in the U.S. does not have writing?

If a school does not have tests or writing, then that school needs to be examined closely.

any school that is failing its students needs to be examined closely and that goes on now.

Let me ask you, then. Why are schools failing to teach these skills?

I really wish I knew the answer to your test question.

I can only guess that there are several factors involved, including but not limited to underpaid burnt out teachers, underfunded individual schools, the stress of poverty, and possibly some sub-cultures.

that school experience and still can become fire fighters, fine soldiers, excellent cops, and many other professions where they started out disadvantaged at one time in our history.

Women do much better in high school and college testing. We really need to explore why such a gender bias exists in American school curriculums.

the years, ever since women were allowed to compete with men in academia. I'm sure if you google this subject you will find a wealth of information...

Its because powerful women in the US want to keep men poor and subservient .

Oh, wait...

there are a few. Most likely it is due to forces even beyond CEO's such as one of the richest people in the world. I'm of course talking about Oprah.

The fire department isn't responsible for educating these people. They shouldn't be held accountable for failures in education that occurred prior to joining the force. And if the job requires an education well . .. it should go to the most educated.

Isn't it better to have a leader of your fire dept. be a person with good judgment, one who can make accurate judgments under great pressure, leadership skills in racially diverse environments, knowledge of the city's diverse racial makeup? There are tests that are being used today that measure such "education." We should have used that kind of test in New Haven...

I don't know what they are as the test isn't widely available and I'm no expert in running a fire department. But the test wasn't challenged as being either biased racially or unnecessary for that position. So I think it's safe to say whatever they asked on it was relevant.

I'd say it's better to have someone who is adept at putting out fires, leading others in putting out fires, and taking care of the administration of this fire house than to have someone who makes for a pleasing brochure on racial diversity. At least, if my house was on fire I'd rather the guys there were chosen because they were the best, I wouldn't be thinking "gee, it sure would be nice if they'd fire all these white guys and get some more diversity out here" as my possessions go up in flame.

it is so loaded with animosity and I wonder why you bother to be on this board with such liberals. I think you'd feel more at home with the repubs giving hi fives over at FR...I'm sure they would welcome your views, esp. the cute line about "pleasing brochures on racial diversity."

not race. I prefer people look at each other as individuals, not groups to be either rewarded or punished for the actions of those long dead. I think any job, especially those that involve life or death situations, should go to the most qualified, regardless or any irrelevant criteria such as race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

If that makes me some sort of hate-filled extremist in your opinion may I suggest you are the one who needs to reevaluate your views, not me.

As far as I can tell from the facts of the case the white firefighters happened to do better on the test (not all of them though) than the blacks. The test was written to determine who should be promoted. They threw it out because there weren't enough blacks in the top tier. The test has been shown to be unbiased racially and justified for the job description. How can you defend this behavior?

is extremely dangerous. When everyone else on the team under him/her is running with tunnel vision. The Line Officer must observe the bigger picture, especially if still in "Command", recognize the implications of evidence both visual, via radio, reports, pre-planning and develop initial strategy and tactics to deal with above.

If you don't know what curling smoke coming from the eves mean you won't know what strategy and tactics are dictated by it.

and failing whites to support your argument.

"I am not good at taking tests" has somehow become a legitimate excuse for not passing a test. It is not a "skill" in and of itself.

What is being tested is the ability to learn new information. If one does not acquire this skill in their education then their education failed.

Good judgment comes from experience. In the military Sergeants have plenty of experience, good judgment and problem solving ability. But the most senior Sergent is subordinate to the most junior officer, who has passed basic skills testing and has proved his ability to learn by obtaining a college degree.

and only blacks made acceptable scores, and the city through out the results and refused to promote anyone because they didn't want to hire any more blacks for those positions, what would that be called?

It was upheld then tossed out right?

I imagine if my scenario were to occur today it would be tossed out this afternoon, and all those responsible for making it would follow.

Ideally, the courts should decide on whether or not there was a bias for or against a particular group of firefighters.

Oh, wait...

and certainly not as a stated policy.

And when it does it evokes universal outrage and I can't imagine any court in this country upholding it.

When was the last time you heard about a company/agency turning down not merely equally qualified, but superior black candidates in favor of whites because they wanted only white people for the job? That would be one of the fastest class action suits in american legal history.

:rofl:

as blatant as this, that were upheld by a court please.

He is 71, I believe. If he retires we will have the opportunity of installing another progressive on the court, and things will undoubtedly change. Kennedy is no moderate. He's a right-winger.

that is how both reported it

this could be fairly narrowly written to address this particular (and messy) situation, or it could make some sweeping changes to afirmative action. If I were to guess I'd guess on the former.

I don't know how it could favor a particular race.

but a test developed by a national company for diverse, multicultural New Haven, Conn. seems to suggest that no test can be developed that does not contain racial bias.

Wouldn't this test be about fire-fighting stuff? How can that be biased?

Which "KISS" album has the most fire on the cover?

Seems more likely to me that our school system has a bias on the subject of funding.

This is such a setback for Civil Rights in America. Bush stacked the high court with old white males who are against Civil Rights.

We need diversity in our workplace and in our country, and we need laws to make sure it is happening. White males should not even be allowed to sue for bias, they have this whole country tilted in their favor, ever President we ever had up until 6 months ago was a white male, every vice president we have ever had is a white male, the Supreme Court is run by white males, how can a white male sue for bias when they dominate every part of America?

a sad sad day for America and a setback of more than 50 years of racial progress.

Go read about what it was like then.

Without seeing the test, determining whether or not the test was biased is difficult.

Really?

I'm an employer. When I hire people, I don't give a shit what color they are, what religion, what political affiliation, what gender. I want to hire the best person who shows up for an interview. Employers need to be able to hire the most qualified person for the job.

Funny how sometimes that just "happens" to be all white people...

I hate it when that argument is used. "Funny how sometimes that just "happens" to be all white people..."

Once that can of worms is opened, it taints the rest of the argument. Maybe it did just "happen" to be all white (and two hispanics, by the way) that passed the test. Shit does just "happen" and I think that in this case, it did. There seems to be NO evidence of discrimination. Why were the test results thrown out? So that the "appearance" of discrimination did not happen, yet discrimination DID happen, against whites and Hispanics. Funny how that just "happens" sometimes, huh?

QED

Oh, woe, what's gonna happen when Whipping-Post-Whitey can no longer be blamed for the shortcomings of others?

I cant tell, seriously.

"We" seem to have gotten the right outcome. Why are you in favor of those results being thrown out in the first place? From what I have read, the test itself was not flawed or discriminatory, but the city was trying to avoid a discrimination lawsuit because few minorities passed. If the test was ok, why throw out the results?

Also, just to reinforce: the city of New Haven screwed up by not having a better test in the first place.

That the test was flawed, or discriminatory in some way, although the same test was used by other municipalities with no problems. But THAT was not the basis of the lawsuit, now was it? The lawsuit stated that the city improperly threw out the test results because the city didn't like that few minorities passed.
I think we are missing the bigger picture here, in that cities, business, etc, are SCARED of being sued for discrimination, or the APPEARANCE of discrimination, even when none has taken place. FEAR is the reason, and when decisions are based on FEAR, they are ALWAYS wrong, as demonstrated in this case.
I have read your posts in this thread and they all have the same theme, which seems to be that in your opinion, the lily-white leadership needs to be diversified. You seem to forget that it is the same lily-white leadership that threw out the test results in an effort to diversify itself.

I know who the people are and why they did what they did. There are things you don't know about influences on them and on the mayor (and his lack of character and judgment).

Again, THE TEST NH USED WAS A NEW ONE, NEVER USED BEFORE. Please try to remember this because I really hate using caps and only do it out of desperation for people who reiterate the same damn misinformation over and over again.

Yes, I think continuation of how many years of lily white leadership only is a bad idea. I grew up white in segregated schools in Dallas and I saw what such asystem does to both whites and blacks in a society. I have had diversity training in my former workplace and in a graduate level course for my Master's degree. I believe diversity to be a strength, as demonstrated in nature. Thus, I believe diversity should be encouraged enthusiastically.

You really need to think about moving.

Maybe if you'd provide more evidence for statements such as "THE TEST NH USED WAS A NEW ONE, NEVER USED BEFORE" you're arguments would be a little more sound.

Its interesting that you cite a Master's degree. Obviously you either took the GRE or GMAT to obtain that degree. Why should we place stock in someone who took yet another biased test?

Yes, test taking skills and essay writing skills were extremely important both in my undergraduate education and in my graduate education. I have a Master's in Liberal Studies, which is a humanities centered discipline involving the arts, literature, history, political science, religion and philosophy. I did an Independent Study on the artist Caravaggio, ask me anything about him. I could go on but I think you are getting my drift. And that was my point. The skill set was great for the MALS degree.

New Haven is a wonderful city, despite its terrible mayor. We have cultural offerings here that I couldn't get in any other city in the state. But we do have town/gown issues and which city with a major university doesn't, not to mention one with an Ivy League university. Your point is???

If it is established then you should have ZERO problem providing evidence.

that seems to defy any citation or linking. :eyes:

One must provide evidence of the facts, which when asked to do so, repeatedly, you say "i have posted it elsewhere, go find it". I say B.S. to that. You have been very active in this thread, yet from what I have read, you provide nothing but your opinion. Just provide evidence and I will admit I am wrong. Its that simple.

Core test and procedures have been used by others. Some questions updated for local regulations and conditions.

The fact that you live there and I don't means that you most certainly have a better idea of whats going on than I do. HOWEVER, changing the leadership there needs to be done FAIRLY. Standards are set and those who pass get promoted. If the standards are flawed, then fix them before they are applied. I have yet to hear a reason why this test was flawed and discriminatory against minorities. Why is that only two hispanics and whites passed? What was wrong with the test?

How many times do I have to state that the city was wrong in using the test in the first place, causing it to then throw out the results? The mayor was derelict in his duty to find and use a better test and he didn't do it and there are many reasons why, not just one, as I have alluded to. I am opposing this mayor with all my might in his reelection campaign but since repubs won't even run a candidate against him, I am hoping I'll have the Green Party candidate to vote for...

As others you are sparring with have pointed out, we can find no evidence of these tests being discriminatory. I have read this thread and find no post where you lay out WHY these tests are discriminatory. If you don't want to type it out again, give me the post numbers and I will read them.
You accuse others of laying down straw man arguments, yet you provide NO evidence except your being a resident of that city and having "local" knowledge of whats going on. Thats great, but it still does not provide evidence of WHY THE TESTS WERE DISCRIMINATORY IN THE FIRST PLACE! I can find no where, here or in media reports, as to what exactly made the test discriminatory.

Her dissent is easy enough to understand and she makes it clear that disparate impact means the test was inherently unfair to black candidates. Now you may wish to take issue with HER rationale, and hence with mine since I agree with her, but then you have to look at her bona fides and, as you know, she is an expert in workplace and educational discrimination...

Let me reiterate: since we can't see the questions on the test we can only go on the disparate outcome. Other cities similar to NH in racial makeup have abandoned such pencil and paper tests in favor of tests that more accurately gauge leadership qualities, such as extensive use of simulation and actual performance reviews of candidates. Those cities have more racially balanced leadership in their FDs. What is your problem with that?

She disagreed with the courts findings. You may agree with her (and this is NOT an attack on her or any other SCOTUS judge) but in MY opinion, from what I have read on this subject, the court got it right. Until I see for myself what made the test discriminatory (remember, not ONLY whites passed the test) I will have to agree with the court. You and I will just have to agree to disagree and move on. I appreciate your passion on the subject and respect that you have a better understanding of the local politics there in CT. I would hope that you can put yourself in my shoes and see it from my point of view as well. Thanks for the exchange, it was fun and enlightening. I hope we can do it again sometime.

Why my company is owned by a "White" woman and employs Native American and Hispanic employees.

There has never been a finding or even serious inquiry that the test was invalid or biased. They went only on the numbers and presumed bias. Very dumb considering the source of the test. If there had been substantive review of the testing process and it was found invalid, this case would not have gone to SCOTUS. If it was upheld as valid, the results should have been used.

What other basic rights, liberties or legal recourse would you like to revoke from white males?

is the most likely motivator.

Hey, blacks couldn't use to vote, we should take that away from "white males".

strong feelings such as the desire for equal treatment under the law, treating people as individuals rather than as races, harsh feelings of injustice, etc.

Terrible.

Why don't we all just sit back and take it? Learn to love discrimination. Like that angry MLK guy, WTF was his problem?

"White males should not even be allowed to sue for bias" Really? That's not fair either.

"how can a white male sue for bias when they dominate every part of America?"

Explain to me how a group of working-class firefighters (which includes several Hispanics) dominate every part of the country?

ever President we ever had up until 6 months ago was a white male, every vice president we have ever had is a white male, the Supreme Court is run by white males

Right because no white man voted for President Obama.

And I guess you didn't notice the whole SC is NOT male.

With that broad brush you ought to be done painting the country in about 12 seconds.

ROFL :rofl:

Equal protection under the law...so long as you're not Caucasian and male.

Where's your next gig? I'd love to catch your stand-up routine sometime.

As a white male, I am utterly disgusted by people like you. Discrimination is wrong, unless it's against whites? What the hell is wrong with you?

I'm all for equal opportunity in the workplace, but I will never support "guaranteed equal outcome." Diviersity, when it occurs naturally, is something no reasonable person could argue against, but manufactured diversity is often counterproductive.

However, let's assume you're right and that diversity is "needed," an absolute necessity that should be ensured everywhere. If so, and a white male applies to a black company which has only black employees, is then turned down even though he is qualified for the position he's applying for, why the fuck shouldn't he be allowed to sue? You said it yourself - "we need diversity!"

Or is your idea of "diversity" simply a minimum of whites?

:eyes:

I'd welcome you to DU, but quite frankly so far I'm not happy you're here.

It was wrong to throw out the test out of fear of a lawsuit. Fear is never a good reason to discriminate.

We all know that most public schools are separate and not equal.

I think that there are almost certainly problems that go far deeper than a test.

And that won't be solved by a test, either.

There's a good chance that no one who took this test attended New Haven's ELHI school system.

strongly reinforced. The public schools are in sad shape. I think the schools attended by the test takers factor in here, but I don't know any more about their school backgrounds...

in almost all 50 states have a serious disparity in the opportunities, equipment, teachers, and dollars that are present in majority black schools vs. majority white schools.

This is one of the major reasons that affirmative action exists. If the kids in the white schools get trained in test taking and the kids in the black schools don't, then how fair is it to test primarily on that skill and not on skills that can be elucidated from simulation and reviews on actual performance?

Do good, get the reward. Do bad, don't get the reward.
Nothing racial about that.

of the fire dept. lily white, then it's GOTTA be merit, doesn't it?

circumstances of the case. Before the Roberts Court, something that excluded African Americans disproportionately was considered discriminatory because of disparate impact. In this instance, 100% of African American test takers were excluded. That makes the test at least suspect, unless you want to believe that African Americans are just dumber than everyone else. Something very racial about that. IMO.

Besides, board members thought the test was useless in determining who would make a good Lt. or Capt.

3 Black individuals passed and are being promoted as well as 2 Hispanic individuals. Please try again.

I lived in south Texas a corrupt as hell place along the Mexican border. While the majority of people are hispanic the people who hold the power are a minority of rich Anglos and some wealthy Hispanics. The gifted and talented program reflected that in my middle school .My mom tried like crazy to get me in that program but school administrators kept saying I didn't meet criteria with out even really knowing about my academic skills.I remember precisely when i was giving a shot at the G&T program,it was six months after my mom gave up and I wrote a kick ass essay that blew my teacher away and she started to really pay attention to me and I was eventually tested. Thankfully for me the company grading the test did not know that I was a 1/2 and 1/2 misfit nor did it know we received foodstamps. I was the only one in the G & T program who got free lunches in the cafeteria I was embarrassed but at least I had classes that did not bore me as much.

If you don't make the grade it's your own fault. Not everyone has the ability. And not everyone has the support from home. It's unfair but it's life. Get used to the reality of having to look in the mirror and blame ourselves for what happens in our lives.

just to take it. They would not let me take it on my mom's insistence but in the end I passed with flying colors and all my teachers said it was a joy to have me in their class. I believe that a test is color and class blind.

I want the best damn firemen coming to my family's aid; I dont give a rats ass about the race of the firemen. And last I heard 1+1=2 regardless of skin color.

in the New Haven FD.

then why throw out the results?

and also alternatives to it there could have been used by New Haven. The city did not do so and is at fault. There are also other factors including the influence of a corrupt pol on our mayor (and that's another reason I believe the test scores were thrown out, but not the only one). Our beloved mayor is holding a press conference at 2 pm today, probably to whine about the SC decision. He is also running for reelection as mayor for life this fall, but hey, that's irrelevant...

provide evidence or its just your opinion.

What, then, is so lacking in her jurisprudence here?

diversity run amok...

We should want the best in leadership. Excellence should be color-blind. And in this case, lives may depend on it.

I would wnat my local fire department run by the BEST from the top down.

Reached this conclusion. Need I say more?

You need to point out with facts this conspiracy you are hinting at. Welcome to DU.

a strip-search of a junior-high student violated her rights.

And additionally, I fully support the right-wing of the court in 2005's Kelo v. New London decision.
The liberals on the Court made an ass out of themselves with that one.

Whether we agree with the test or not, it should be the employer's business what test they use or not. Activist judging comes from the right wing as much or more than the liberals.

what business did Sotomayor have in supporting that decision? I don't understand your point.

I am thankful for this outcome.

I don't think it's been released to the public.

if it is released it is no longer valid as a test. Everyone has the answers.

Doing well on a test IS (part of) the merit. There is no such measurable quality known as "merit" that can be tested for. Merit is what I get for passing an exam in school, regardless of how much of an idiot the teacher is. If I fail the exam, blaming the teacher is not a reasonable excuse.

The question here was never how good a test it was; only the results in the performance of the fire company could possibly indicate that.

Yep, once again white privilege rears its ugly head. Fucking unbelievable.

I'm more upset that there were zero Native Americans who passed the test. Sure, none took it, but they should install a few as Captains just for diversities sake.

the meaning of "Hispanic."

:eyes:

According to the US government, "white" is a race while "Hispanic" is an ethnicity.

Just like you can be Polish and white, you can be Hispanic and white.

Is this not well known?

Race

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, 2000 Census of Population, Public Law 94-171 Redistricting Data File. Updated every 10 years. http://factfinder.census.gov.

Definition:

The concept of race as used by the Census Bureau reflects self-identification by people according to the race or races with which they most closely identify. These categories are sociopolitical constructs and should not be interpreted as being scientific or anthropological in nature. Furthermore, the race categories include both racial and national-origin groups.

The racial classifications used by the Census Bureau adhere to the October 30,1997, Federal Register Notice entitled,"Revisions to the Standards for the Classification of Federal Data on Race and Ethnicity" issued by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB).

White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Near Easterner, Arab, or Polish.

Black or African American. A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "Black, African Am., or Negro," or provide written entries such as African American, Afro American, Kenyan, Nigerian, or Haitian.

American Indian and Alaska Native. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America) and who maintain tribal affiliation or community attachment.

Asian. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam. It includes "Asian Indian," "Chinese," "Filipino," "Korean," "Japanese," "Vietnamese," and "Other Asian."

Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands. It includes people who indicate their race as "Native Hawaiian," "Guamanian or Chamorro," "Samoan," and "Other Pacific Islander."

Some other race. Includes all other responses not included in the "White", "Black or African American", "American Indian and Alaska Native", "Asian" and "Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander" race categories described above. Respondents providing write-in entries such as multiracial, mixed, interracial, Wesort, or a Hispanic/Latino group (for example, Mexican, Puerto Rican, or Cuban) in the "Some other race" category are included here.

qualifications and not by the color of ones skin. MLK would be proud.

couldn't pass doesn't mean it should be thrown out.

She is an expert in discrimination cases and a brilliant progressive jurist. As a self identified progressive just what is so flawed her thinking? I think it is a hallmark of progressivism.

I wish more people on this thread and in general would take a diversity in the workplace course or even a workshop or two. It would take people beyond their comfortable assumptions and into a new way of looking at things. But then, I do know that some people don't want their assumptions disturbed...

Scalia
Thomas
Roberts
Alito
Kennedy

Soon!

This is the right-wing cabal from the execrable "Federalist Society" of fascist jurists. I pray that at least 2 of them decide to cash-in and get the fuck off the court.

Then, it would be REAL nice if Obama could nominate someone who isn't a corporate TOOL!!!

are skewed in favor of whites so that they don't get sued by whites...For discrimination in racist USAmerika??? :rofl:

This bunch is the opposite of the only "fresh air" court in history, the Warren Court. They're back to their roots -- to protect privilege against the masses...(uh, that would be us)

I'm giving Sotomayor the benefit of the doubt on recusing herself. But that's iffy she doesn't seem to have to much respect for the Judicial Code of Conduct. If she even knows what it is.

but she followed existing SCOTUS law in this case, which everyone below SCOTUS level is bound by. Please see the Slate article that I linked in Reply 175.

If her decision in this case in the 2d Circuit is the basis for your claim that she does not know anything about the Judicial Code of Conduct, you are way off base.

That comment was in reference to her speech and resignation from a womans club. She now seems to think membership in that club would present a problem for her as a Justice. But fact of the matter is. If that's problem for her on the SCOTUS bench. It's also a problem for her on her current bench. The JCC states that judges must avoid even the appearance of being partial or bias. Sotomayor seems to jump in the middle of it with both feet. Sotomayor has also gone beyond the standard answer of with imparitiality when asked how she would decide cases. My Opinions of Sotomayor have little or nothing to do with this case. I also think that if she were nominated by Bush instead. All these things democrats are wanting to overlook would be the albatross around her neck.

I had no problems with Roberts nomination. I haven't agreed with a single decission he has made. But I had no problems with his nomination or confirmation.

If you would have told me a year ago I'd be crossing my fingers that an Obama nominee doesn't get confirmed, I'd have laughed in your face. Incredibly, you'd have been right.

But I have a world of problems with Justice Sotomayor. The bench is just the wrong side of the law for her political mindedness. I think both Sotomayor and America would be better served with her in Congress instead of SCOTUS. Her political vision and asperations is not a problem for her there.

If her district / constituents elect her, then that's the way it goes. However, the idea of someone on SCOTUS who looks at race before she looks at the Constitution and could do so for decades makes me want to throw up.