Wis. jury: Father guilty in prayer death case

Source: AP

WAUSAU, Wis. — A central Wisconsin man accused of killing his 11-year-old daughter by praying instead of seeking medical care was found guilty Saturday of second-degree reckless homicide. Dale Neumann, 47, was convicted in the March 23, 2008, death of his daughter, Madeline, from undiagnosed diabetes. Prosecutors contended he should have rushed the girl to a hospital because she couldn't walk, talk, eat or drink. Instead, Madeline died on the floor of the family's rural Weston home as people surrounded her and prayed. Someone called 911 when she stopped breathing.

Sitting straight in his chair, Neumann stared at the jury as the verdict in a nearly empty courtroom was read. He declined comment as he left the courthouse. Defense attorney Jay Kronenwetter said the verdict would be appealed. He declined further comment. Prosecutors also declined comment, citing a gag order.

Leilani Neumann, 41, was convicted on the same charge in the spring. Marathon County Circuit Judge Vincent Howard set Oct. 6 for sentencing for both parents, who face up to 25 years in prison. Their case is believed to be the first in Wisconsin involving faith healing in which someone died and another person was charged with a homicide. Last month, an Oregon jury convicted a man of misdemeanor criminal mistreatment for relying on prayer instead of seeking medical care for his 15-month-old daughter who died of pneumonia and a blood infection in March 2008. Both of the girl's parents were acquitted of a more serious manslaughter charge.

Neumann's jury — six men and six women — deliberated about 15 hours over two days before convicting him. At one point, jurors asked the judge whether Neumann's belief in faith healing made him "not liable" for not taking his daughter to the hospital even if he knew she wasn't feeling well. Neumann, who once studied to be a Pentecostal minister, testified Thursday that he believed God would heal his daughter and he never expected her to die. God promises in the Bible to heal, he said.

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5idOw7yXOoyaU14MWjkJIllXXjMoQD99QBD7O0

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Score one for the rational among us.

The Oregon case was a disgrace- the guy was sentenced to 60 days in jail- although under the misdemeanor conviction he could have gotten a year. And of course, the fundies are even whining about that meager amount of time.

can be not miracles. Their God cannot seem to provide a doctor and medicine that will help their child. Either He does it their way are they do not want answers.

God made more than one of us because he knew we would need each other, our different gifts and talents. Things like this are so sad because they really do not understand how God works.

There was a flood and a woman was up on her roof watching the water rising. A guy came by in a row boat and asked her if she would like a lift to dry ground. She says, no thank you. God will save me. The only lift I need is from God. The water had risen to her knees when two guys in a speed boat came by and asked her if she would like a lift to dry ground. She says, no thank you. God will save me. The only lift I like comes from God. The water had risen to her neck when three guys in a Helicopter came by and asked her if they could give her a lift to dry ground. She say, no thank you. God will save me. The only lift I'll accept will come from God. The woman drowned. She found herself standing before God. She say, God I am a good woman that has been a devout Christian all my life and I have lived only for you. Why did you let me down in this my greatest hour of need? God said, I sent you two boats and helicopter. What more could you want?

What is the sense of believing in Democracy if you are never going to put that belief into practice? The the same with Religion. What is the sense in believing in a religion if you are never going to put that belief into practice?

The problem most people have with the first amendment is that forget it's true intent. Which is basically when the laws of man and the laws of God conflict. You are free to follow to God. Sure man can kill you or make the rest of your life miserable to the point of being not worth living. But God can make the rest of your eternity inescapably agonizing. In the contrast of that no good natured person would force a person to chose between man made suffering now or Divine suffering later. No good natured person would seek to separate a believer from God. Because they very methods used to separate a believer from the practice (free exercise)of religion can also be used to separate a believer from the practice(free exercise) of Democracy. Because both are philosophies of living the best life possible. The practice of both philosophies can coexist peacefully.

The real question in this case is simple. Did the parents respect the girls free exercise of religion or did they practice their religion upon her? Only the girls free exercise of religion in her life is protected by the first amendment. Absent any proof of the the girls free exercise of religion in this. The court must proceed upon natural human instinct which will always choose life over death. This is because science has observed and proven the human instincts of self preservation (fight or flight) and preservation of species (sex drive.) So psychologically healthy humans are inclined to preserve themselves and the species (others.) This natural inclination of instinct also imparts duties and obligations upon those who are not using religion as a means of overcoming those animal drives. Those who are have duties and obligations under the tenant's and codices of the religion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNopQq5lWqQ|They may provide for a time to live and a time to die.> Just like in Democracy.

put things across so your points aren't as skewed as they seem to be here in that democracy/religion post. it was a bit confusing (guess we're not all as "highly educated" as you--especially late at night)

If you have a command of your subject. You should be able to do that. I also debate on other Bipartisan boards. They usually tell the confused newbies that there are prerequisite courses to understanding the Wizard. I see you have not taken those courses. :7 So I will be more than happy to answer any questions you have.

That defies the Navjote. There is a Sect of Zoroastrian in India that practice the religion as being ethnocentric. They accept no converts. You must be born into that sect. But again that defies the Navjote.

or magical powers. You are claiming to have supernatural or magical powers? You have got to be kidding.

The root of the word Magic is Magi. Magic actually means Art of the Magi. Those many scientific arts have noting to do with prestidigitation. The world of this day doesn't understand us as well it once did. Today many most peoples Knowledge of the Magi is confined to the Triumvirate council sent to the Birth of Christ to evaluate the claim to the Throne of David. The claim was found to valid and he was added to the Hebrew Book of Kings.

NT!

He is our Lord and Master and we learn much from Him.

NT!

It's real simple. I have died and while I was dead I saw God in all His Glory. There is NOTHING you and every psychiatrist on the face of this earth can do to remove that Knowledge of God's existence. It's just too easy to chew them up and spit them out. Their Science is still in it's infancy and shitting green.

shame very religious people do not heed it very often.

A miracle is truly divine intervention. Not a human intervention. One should not be as vain as to believe that God do something just because we ask. Then you also have to factor in the freewill he has given us all and deeply respects. Which brings us right back to the point I was making in post 18. Did the parents respect her freewill in religious practice or did they subject her to their freewill in their religious practice? Only the free exercise of the girls religious beliefs entered into voluntarily is protected under the first amendment. Because freedom of religion is preserved by freedom from religion.

But I must admit that this point of view maybe biased by own religious beliefs. In my religion, Mazdaism, you must enter into this voluntary of your own freewill. The earliest we will perform the Navjote (nativity or initiation)ceremony on child is 7 years old as rule of thumb. This is to ensure the child is old enough to understand and make an informed decision to give themselves to God. If a child of a younger age can convince the Magus or Mobad that is to perform the ceremony that it is a decision made of their freewill. Then the ceremony can be performed. But the religion must be entered into of freewill. It's not a religion that you can be born into. It's a path you must choose.

a lightning bolt or suddenly appear like a goblin - if he did there would be so much lightning or unidentified object sightings it would not even be funny. You are of course right in that it is the child's religious freedom that is violated by the parents.

When I needed a miracle for my daughter I prayed like the parent above but I did not dictate the form of the answer to God. I got some of the best doctors we could have had and she is 51 years old today when her life expectancy was only 30. You call it something else, I call it a miracle.

When I was 16 I died. The doctor pronounced me dead and set me off to the side to await an intern to wheel me down to the morgue. God sent me back. When the intern showed up I had shallow breathing and a faint pulse. 2 hours later they couldn't find any reason to keep other than the fact I dead 2 hours ago and they wanted to make sure the condition did not reoccur. This was in 1947. Back then they called it a resurrection. The term Near Death Experience did not yet exist. But I can assure you I was completely and entirely dead. This is a miracle. I'm not saying God doesn't use humans to answer prayers. I'm also not saying this isn't a grand and wondrous event when He does. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Miracle">It just doesn't meet the definition of miracle. But it's an act of man instead of an act of God. Even if it does answer the prayer. To be a miracle there must be direct Divine intervention with no other explanation.

different kind experienced a true miracle.

Believe exactly what I believe in matters of faith or your faith is not the truth? That is bigotry.

BTW, the link you gave in no way supports your assertion. Not that the freedictionary, much as I like it, could define or limit my faih to begin with, but your link does not support your claim.

mir·a·cle (mr-kl)
n.
1. An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God: "Miracles are spontaneous, they cannot be summoned, but come of themselves" (Katherine Anne Porter).
2. One that excites admiring awe. See Synonyms at wonder.
3. A miracle play.

The third definition does not apply in this discussion. The second is much broader than your definition. As for the first, something could be inexplicable by the laws of nature, yet still involve humans. At least Ten doctors at one of the world's most famous hospitals, including my surgeon, said it was a miracle that I survived at all after surgery, let alone recovering to the degree that I have. That was in 1996.

Catholics would not consider my survival a miracle, though, because I still have some issues, though manageable. In their view, the recovery must be complete.

Different strokes for different folks. I would not dream of declaring your belief or your miracle invalid. Kindly show my faith the same deference.

You are simply misidentifying. Using the wrong word to describe the situation. This is America and you are free to believe what ever you want. If you want to misidentify red as blue. Simply because you believe red to be the true blue. That's fine. You can also believe that peace involves bombing people into oblivion. But if you are going achieve relevance on the subject. At some point to have to be able to call a spade a spade. Sure you can turn over dirt with a shovel. But is by no means a spade. Even if its is used in place of a spade to achieve the same purpose. The shovel is not a spade. In investigating a miracle. The second you find the hand of man in it's production. That alone will preclude it from being a miracle. At that point you have established it is an act of man and not an act of God. Therefore not a miracle. Sorry I will not abandon established theology simple to prevent you from actually learning the truth.

Exactly!

NT!

you can't prove them to everyone's satisfaction. Some people will never believe, no matter what.

Some things cannot be explained by the laws of nature. Some of us call them miracles; others don't. Big deal.

I never understand why some members of one group has to be so ugly and obnoxious to members of the other. Bigotry and intolerance is ugly, no matter which direction it comes from.

When my belief in miracles hurts you, pm me, k?

Personally I prefer Descartes. "I think therefore I am." But I have yet to actually meet the skeptic that can truly counter Descartes by disproving their own existence. But I believe there is one out there somewhere.

That's the nature of reality. Oh, and it's not "bigotry" or "intolerance" to point out that fact.

That is the only point I make. You are free to have other opinions. I respect your right to hold that opinion even if I don't agree with it. Oh hell, especially when I don't agree with it.

I love that joke.

that mentality. I mean, God gave some of us the ability to become doctors, nurses, etc. so we could HELP EACH OTHER. I don't understand the mindset that medical personnel are somehow the enemy. :shrug:

If adults want to pray their cancer will go away rather than seek treatment that is their choice. But when children are involved as a secular society we must consider the best interests of the child. In this case it was the best interests of the parents and their kooks religious fantasies that caused the death of their child. This one should not be allowed to ever father another child and should be incarcerated for the rest of his natural life.

These fundies need to understand that practicing their religion doesn't mean they can do this at the detriment of those unable to fend for themselves. This is the argument they throw up about abortion...the unborn can't speak for themselves. Well in this case clearly the child couldn't speak for themselves and died as a result.

required these people to leave their daughter untreated. These are not fundamentalists but cult members or extremists. The terms are not interchangeable.

is the size of its congregation.

he had been asked at trial whether he thought that "God" had broken his promise to heal and, knowing that someone had died in this case despite his having prayed for them, whether he would keep trying to heal desperately ill people this way.

And funny...how prayer works so crappy on things that have no chance of getting better by themselves...

That is the beauty about just making shit up as you go along. You never have to be wrong. At least in your own mind.

Take torture for example. The self-described religious support it on a much greater level than those of the reality-based community.

consistently oppose torture. I am a person of faith, whom you might classify as "religious." I am sure I am not alone, even on this board, let alone on the planet.

Apparently, religious folk are not the only ones who make up things as they go along. Anti-religious bias is as blinding as bias stemming from religion.

Please also see Reply ## 35 and 50.

who help themselves, jackass! (and by that, I mean taking your kid to the hospital). These nut bags are the kind of people who are so gung-ho for a do it yourself work ethic, government welfare hating, pull yourself up by your bootstraps mentality. But when it comes to their religion, its "oh help me Lord, save me God in my hour of need, give me, give me, give me." Sound pretty socialistic to me :wow: God (if you believe in her) gave man intelligence so he could help himself and others (ya know with doctors and surgeons)and not waste their time praying for a "miracle."

I am always reminded of the sermon given by the preacher in the Poseidon Adventure (great example, right?) played by Gene Hackman. He tells the passengers that if you're living in a cold water flat in the dead of winter, you don't pray to god to have the heat turned on. You pray to god to give you the strength to rip up the floor boards and make a fire. Just like you don't pray to god to make your daughter well, you take her to the freaking hospital and maybe you pray that god gives the doctor the strength to perform his job well and treat her with the knowledge that he has.


I'm glad the jury reached the correct verdict, and weren't blindsided by some hocus pocus prayer mumbo jumbo excuse.

In my view God has allowed the human race to nurture amazing minds that have come up with scientific answers to illness - medications, surgeries, understanding the human body.

If this was his decision about his body than fine but the child should have at least had the chance to live.

he could have gotten away with it just like the insurance companies. Whether it's a religious nut or a greedy insurance company, the result is the same. Only difference is that capitalism is a defense to murder.

gave.

so we could help each other!

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Excellent solution to solving the issue of religious intolerance, ignorance and hatred. Why didn't I think of that one?

As an agnostic, I really don't care what people want to believe in as long as no others have to suffer for it (as happened in this case). Fortunately this man is paying the price for his crime, but apparently that isn't enough for some.

This kind of irrational anger - no doubt for the Christians among us, isn't exactly going to prove beneficial or useful for anything other than inspiring a lot of bickering. Believe it or not, plenty of Christians are perfectly sane individuals. The liberal Christians among us tend to go beyond that by being charitable, kind, peaceful - and forgiving. Or at the least they try to be.

It's a shame this happened and anger towards the idiot Father in question is perfectly justifiable. But lashing out at religious liberals serves no purpose other than, perhaps, to alienate the Christians among us who seem to have the right idea.

Bleeding heart pansies? I'm really hoping that was an attempt at satire.

Frankly I think your anger in this case is misplaced.

It is not impossible to be both religious and liberal. There have always been religious liberals who supported the right causes, and will continue to. Bash the enemy if you must, but kicking your allies when they've done nothing to deserve it seems counter-productive to me.

---the mind of this deity who eerily enough seems to always agree with the point of view of every other Christian on the planet just the same. Maybe there's some truth to the whole omnipotence deal.
Liberal Christians might be harmless enough in their world-view but that does not change the fact they are still enablers for their more dangerous cousins by, for example, normalizing magical thinking as opposed to rational understanding.


By the way, I am also "agnostic". An agnostic atheist to be specific.
Agnostic/gnostic in this context acts as a qualifier. Knowledge and belief are not the same thing, you cannot use atheist/theist and agnostic/gnostic along the same spectrum.

I'm sorry to be to one to break it to you but if you don't actively believe in god then you are an atheist.

Gnostic theist: Believes in a god and claims to know that they exist
Agnostic theist: Believes in a god but does not know whether they exist
Gnostic atheist: (What we call hard atheism) Does not believe in a god and claims to know that they do not exist
Agnostic atheist: (Soft atheism) Does not believe in a god and does not know whether a god exists

I, too, am an agnostic atheist -- and let's be clear, NO ONE is a gnostic theist, because no one, ever, has had knowledge of gods existing (due to the overwhelming lack of evidence throughout human history).

As far as I knew agnostic simply meant uncertain as to the existence of any deity. Neither on the bus nor off of it, so to speak. Seems we're on the same page when it comes to not knowing or believing.

I really don't see how liberal Christians are part of the problem unless they are actively arguing that things such as what happened here should be permitted. I imagine that, most of them, if in a position to do so, would stand against and argue against such behavior.

There are very different levels of magical thinking. A sane Christian would pray for his or her child, but still take that child to receive medical treatment. The magical thinking that perhaps the prayer could be helpful isn't necessarily a bad thing provided it doesn't overcome your common sense or rational judgment.

Magical thinking in itself, isn't such a terrible thing. It's when it becomes outright delusion which leads to enormous ignorance as we've seen in this particular case. At least, that's my opinion.

Liberal Christians will not be changing the minds of the conservative christians any time in the near future. Nor is that likely to ever happen. I don't believe they encourage or enable magical thinking as opposed to rationality simply by holding to their beliefs.

What do you really expect? There are debates taking place all over the world regarding similar issues, I believe that the liberal Christians among us are doing the best they can. I fail to see how they enable this kind of thinking or action simply by sharing a belief in a deity. The God of the liberal Christians and the God of the conservative Christians is, in my opinion, a very different being.

Elaborate.

NT!

have simply referenced it in Reply 50.

they killed this beautiful 11 year old girl because of their ignorance and stupidity! shame on them.i hope they spend many many years in jail and i hope to god they don't have other children whose lives they have also ruined.

It's always so sad to me that kids have to suffer because their parents are brain washed morons.

That poor kid. Killed for mythology when proven medical science would have saved her.

The father clearly never heard that double-blind tests prove beyond doubt that prayer does not work.

would probably claim are inexplicable, while others might claim proved prayer does work. I suspect varying results might come from what the directors of the study sought to prove (or disprove).

By triple blind, I mean that no one directly involved knew of the study, not the medical providers (doctors, nurses, etc., and not the patient prayed for and not the people who prayed, who did not know for whom they were praying or why.

I am not defending any of the studies, just saying they have come out both ways.

If I am wrong, please let me know where I can read that study.

NT!

Don't lie to prove your point.

the girl was sick but not going to get anything but prayer accessories? Where's the mom? (I think one woman got off by claiming she was brainwashed by her husband and his sister. Ugh!!!

"The father testified that he thought Madeline had the flu or a fever, and several relatives and family friends said they also did not realize how sick she was."

Cause no one ever died of untreated flu or fever? Come on, now. Fever is one of eight symptoms you should never ignore. Besides, that's one of the reasos you call a doctor--to get a diagnosis of the cause of the fever.

If a few people got arresting for enabling these people, I believe you would see less of this kind of thing.

diagnosed at ten months old. He got sick one day and the next he woke up with the symptoms Madeline displayed: listlessness, can't eat, can't drink, hell, he could barely hold his head up. We, of course, didn't drop him on the floor and pray, we sent him by ambulance to Texas Children's. He was in critical condition when he arrived, glucose at about 900 and in full diabetic ketoacidosis. The doctors pumped him full of insulin and had his level stabled within 48 hours. A week later we took him home--he hasn't been back to the hospital since. It floors me that anyone could see his or her child in such pitiful shape and not rush to the hospital. Here's the outcome if you actually go to the hospital:

www.charliebear.us

...another death as a result of ignorance.

dangerous and tragic thing, when put into the minds of fools so confused and needy that they cannot distinguish logic and facts from their own personal self-centered fantasies.

They are ALL fools that cannot, or will not, distinguish logic and fact from fantasies.