Coup by Technicality

LATE LAST YEAR 3,448,747 of Venezuela's 24 million citizens turned out in just four days to sign petitions calling for a recall referendum on President Hugo Chavez. This extraordinary civic exercise, monitored by observers from the Organization of American States and the Carter Center, offered a democratic solution to years of political conflict in that important oil-producing nation -- trouble that threatened to push Venezuela into dictatorship or civil war. Now Mr. Chavez, whose crackpot populism and authoritarian methods provoked the crisis, blatantly seeks to stop the vote, in violation of his commitment to both the OAS and his own constitution. His actions have already prompted a new wave of unrest across the country, including demonstrations in which at least seven people have been killed. Unless he can be restrained, Mr. Chavez may complete his destruction of one of Latin America's most enduring democracies.

Though the constitution, drawn up under Mr. Chavez's own administration, requires 20 percent of all voters to back a referendum, opposition groups collected 1 million signatures more than should have been needed for the recall vote. These signatures were rigorously audited by a nonpartisan civic group before being forwarded to the electoral commission. Yet, after delaying its response for weeks, the commission, dominated by Mr. Chavez's supporters, rejected 1.6 million of them, or nearly half the total. To do so, it invented requirements that didn't previously exist. Most notably, it threw out 876,000 signatures, each accompanied by a thumbprint, because someone other than the voter had entered registration details on the petition.

Mr. Chavez's functionaries subsequently announced that they would give about a million of those stricken from the list a chance to restore their names -- but only if they appear in a limited number of registration centers during one two-day period. In practice, that poses a next-to-impossible logistical challenge to the opposition, even if there were no harassment from Mr. Chavez's police and civilian goon squads. But attempts by the foreign mediators to reverse this Kafkaesque coup have so far been unsuccessful.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31927-2004Mar4.html

Hugo Chavez was elected in December 1998. One of the first things he did was to call for a Constituent Assembly to rewrite the Constitution. This was done through a referendum, a figure which appeared nowhere in the old Constitution. But through a popular petition, it was done.

The new Constitution, contemplated two types of referenda: Consultative referenda, where the people would vote on important issues and would require 10% of the registered voters to sign a petition and Recall Referenda, where people would be able to request for a recall referendum after the midpoint of the term of any elected official.

Contrary to popular perception, it was not Chavez that introduced this concepts into the Constitution, they were introduced in the project to change the Venezuelan Constitution by the COPRE in the mid-90’s and it was lawyer Ricardo Combellas, who coincidentally no longer backs Chavez, who introduced their discussion in the Constituent Assembly.

In November 2002, before the strike, the opposition began gathering signatures for a Consultative referendum asking whether the people approved or not of the job President Hugo Chávez was doing. On January 23d. 2003, the Venezuelan Supreme Court ruled that the referendum could not take place, not because the question was illegal, as the pro-Chávez forces requested, but because the Court said no elections or referenda could take place in Venezuela until a new Electoral Board (CNE) was elected by the National Assembly.

After many attempts of trying to choose an Electoral Board, the Supreme Court stepped in and said that since the Assembly had left a legal void by not naming the new CNE and thus it would name one which would be in place until the Assembly fulfilled its obligation. (It never did)

The day after the mid-term of President Hugo Chavez, the opposition submitted 3 million signatures collected in a petition drive which it submitted to the new CNE. One month later in mid-September, the new CNE said that the petition was unacceptable because there were no regulations on how to do it and it would issue the regulations soon.

The CNE in early October issue the regulations. They were absurd for a petition. Essentially, the CNE would issue forms printed on money paper. During four consecutive days, those that asked for the petition would set up booths, much like polling booths, in the presence of a CNE representative and many witnesses from the other side to gather signatures. The people would have to sign and leave their fingerprint on the form. Each form had ten lines and it contained the name, the birthdate and the National ID number of the person signing. There were very specific regulations as to how the fingerprint should be stamped, you should write clearly, don’t go over the boundary etc. But the regulations did not say anything about the person signing having to fill out their own personal data.

One troublesome aspect of the petition drive is that the results would be made public, putting pressure on Government employees and the military not to sign and those living abroad could not participate, despite the fact that the Constitution says they have a right to participate in electoral processes.

Despite the hurdles, the opposition gathered 3.6 million signatures of the 2.436 million needed and turned in 3.4 million to the CNE.

This was all handed in before Christmas and despite the fact that the law says the CNE has one month to say whether the signatures are there or not, it has been two and a half months and no answer has been given to the opposition petition (or that against Deputies on both sides)

Half way through the verification of the signatures, where just the data was being checked, it looked like clear sailing, rejection rates were running at 5-9% in the first 13 states verified. Suddenly, the CNE technicians decided to declare under observation all the forms in which the data was filled by the same person, i.e. had the same calligraphy the so called “planas”, but the signatures were different. These occurred because in an effort to make sure the signatures would be validate, those collecting the signatures would fill out the data in some booths and simply have the person sign and stamp the signatures. This was done according to regulations that said only the signature needed to be by the person. Similarly no rule said this was a reason to eliminate a signature.

Reportedly, the CNE has certified valid 1.914 million signatures, has placed under observation 750,000 and ahs rejected 718,000 either because of data inconsistency or because the cover sheet that accompanies the form (the “acta”) had a number different than the total in the form.

What the CNE proposes is to have people go back and ratify or conform that they did sign only for the “planas” and those forms that had other errors, but not for the 714,000 to technical problems.

Thus in one word, the opposition would need (doable but difficult) that over 70% of the people that sign the “planas” go back and confirm they did.

The opposition has argued that the CNE is changing the burden of proof, presuming those signing are guilty without having any proof and says why not ratify ALL signatures, particularly those that have problems with the “Actas” and inconsistencies with the electoral registry.

In the end, this has been an obstacle course for the opposition which has complied with every step, despite the difficulties introduced. However, the pro-Chavez members dominate the Board of the CNE by a three to two margin. People feel cheated; think the system is unfair, that the rules should not be changed on the fly. Last Friday, during the G-15 summit in Caracas a huge opposition demonstration was met with excessive force, two people die and 40 were injured. Since then there have been continuous protests and clashes with the military police and the National Guard. Human Rights have not been respected and over one hundred people have been jailed, some without charges or due process. The CNE and the opposition negotiate at this time a possible compromise on the signatures.

But we did not have to get this far. This is only a petition to have a recall vote. Who is afraid of the actual recall vote? Not the opposition.

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/2004/03/02.html#a1338

Do you support a democratic form of government or not?

Do you find a funded coup by corporate tyrants who were being subject to some "rules" unacceptable?

and understand democracy

did you read and understand the information??

what parts don't you understand?

the validity of the signatures in a constitutionally guaranteed right?

3.5 million in FOUR days


pay attention and you might learn something

Jeez. Please post a warning on posts like that.

Your posts on Haiti and Venezuela go out of their way to "excuse" Bush's actions. What kind of Democracy are you so ferociously understanding?

I shudder to think of what kind of insight you would have brought to the war against Iraq had you been here last year.

I just don't like Aristide or Chavez...or Castro...guess what?

neither does Rangel

Now we all know, beyond the shadow of a doubl, that you have no idea what you're talking about! ROFLMAO.

"I don't even like Aristide and I have not talked to any Haitians about Haiti except Aristide," Mr. Rangel said. "I just like the rule of law. We have never said that we supported Aristide."

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040304-114552-4579r.htm

Now, what have we told you people about linking freeper rags?

How f*ck'n transparent can you get?? LOL

for libel....

where they compare Pres. Chavez to Mao and Hitler. That one's a riot.

and lately there's been a number of them hanging around. Like the Shrub, IQs are below 50 and, as Nelson Mandela put it, they can't think properly.

Here's a giggle for you.. http://homepage.mac.com/webmasterkai/kaicurry/gwbush/dishonestdubya.html

:bounce:

n/t

when you come up with some facts let us know

If we feed 'em they just continue to post flame bait 'cuz trolls need loads of attention--and they ain't worth the bandwidth ;-)

Took a lot of work to get that many posts in such a short period of time. I guess all the links to the Washington Times and Hollinger's Telegraph really adds up!

once before but the people rose up against the coup orchestrated by the CIA and he remained in power. The Shrub and his minions are trying to install a dictator who will allow the export of all their oil and natural gas via citgo with no money going to the people. The people rose up last year to keep the natural gas in country as they were shipping out all of their natural gas and the people were freezing in the cold without heat. This is not a clear cut people vs despot story.

you have no clue...know anybody in Venezuela?? why do you think Chavez is trying to stall a referendum? did you read the articles??

it's not all about US!!!

I tried to make these same points yesterday and got flamed. Facts are nasty inconvenient things that some just pretend don't exist.

the bugs disappear...silence is golden :)

Like iraq, venezuela has oil. And oil is what this administration is about. Most all of them are connected to the industry directly or indirectly. Of course most of them were successful at it, except for Captain Courageous, our pResident, who failed at that and everything else he ever tried.

They tried to overthrow chavez last year too. You really have to wonder what they are thinking. They funded and supported the rebels in haiti, venezuela, bolivia, columbia, etc, etc. When they go down in november (please goddess, help us defeat them) I pray that all these governments demand that the world court declare them international criminals and issue warrants for their arrest and trials.

I can dream, can't I?

..and is wreaking havoc in Venezeula. His populist schtick has long lost its appeal and he has completely lost the confidence of the vast majority of his population.

There is a reason Chavez is working so hard to fight the referendum, and that is because he knows full well he would lose.

People whom rally behind a dimwitted thug like Chavez are usually the same folks who think Cuba is a democracy and Castro is visionary leader.

Chavez won't last much longer. The only question is how he will go. Venezuela has no hope of any real economic growth with Chavez in charge, and the majority of the population - the opposition, will drive Chavez from power sooner rather than later.

Imajika

thanks for paying attention

:yourock:

De la merde, de la merde puante et rien que de la merde.

Aparentemente esta bien desesperada la "oposicion". Comparando a Chavez con Noriega. Esperemos que se le acabe el guiso a todo ese chorro de abusadores riquitos. De verdad que dan pena. Les molesta tener a ese morenazo dando ordenes y poniendolos en su sitio. Concentrense en mejorar el pais y no en pendejadas y comemierderias.

Amazing. Simply amazing.

Is the quality of discourse on the DU going down, or is it just that insurgent posters are spreading the disinformation so fast that no one can keep up?

If anyone needs to be recalled it is our President. We have no business interferring in another democracy's business...or any other country for that matter, including Iraq and Cuba.

you have no clue

:party:

:)

:bounce: :puffpiece: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party:

don't stop, please don't stop...:evilgrin:

:kick:

Seriously, isn't an election due soon anyway? What is the point of the recall, if it only moves things up a short amount of time? I guess I have become suspicious of these recall initiatives after California.

The same was true in Haiti. There was an election scheduled soon, so why the effort to get rid of Aristide if he was going to go down to defeat anyway?

The same was true of Clinton. Why were the Republicans so hell bent on getting rid of Clinton near the end of his term, when he couldn't run again anyway?

If the concern is electoral fraud, why do people think the recall vote would be any more honest than the regular election?

What do people think will happen in November, after the U.S. election, which is bound have plenty of charges of electoral fraud thrown around?

I suppose these are all just rhetorical questions.

but that's not the point...the referendum and right to hold a recall are in the Venezuelan constitution...linking this to California or Clinton or Aristade is irrelevant...it's about Venezuelans!! their rights...not dems vs pubs...the USA is not the center of the universe

Hmm, they could have fooled me.

In the face of the recent wave of crimes against the Venezuelan civilian population, which is claiming for respect for democratic institutionality, perpetrated by the new candidate for totalitarian strongman, Hugo Chávez, our Human Rights Organizations express their firm condemnation and make a public call to the international public opinion so that it reacts in categorical fashion this step back into barbarie which, under the direct influence of the Stalinists directives captained by Fidel Castro from Havana, threatens to subject the whole of Venezuelan society to debacle and tyrannical submission.

The subterfuges and false arguments that "Chavism" is employing in Venezuela are the same that have been used by other despots that ended up exterminating millions of human beings with the only real goal of perpetuating themselves in power and of creating dynasties of executioners. V. Lenin, Adolph Hitler, Mao Tse Tung, Benito Mussolini and Fidel Castro among other representatives of twentieth century repression have established the formulas for squashing all vestiges of democratic rights and civil liberties.

A new wave of fascist and Stalinist national socialism is going around in Latin America, with Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro playing the role of Commissars in Chief, the same way it went around Europe for decades last century. Those that fight for the integral respect for human rights, anywhere in the planet, can not remain impassive facing this new cycle which returns us to medieval servility.



Vitautas Landsbergis, President of IGFM, ex President of Lithuania.

Alexander Soljenitzyn, ex prisoner of the Gulag y Nobel Prize in Literature

Lech Walesa, ex president of Poland

Janos Kiss, ex President of the Hungarian Parliament

Václav Havel, ex President of the Check Republic

Serguei Agrusow, Founder of IGFM, Germany

Elena Bonner, President of the Andrei Sajarov Foundation.

Elie Wiezel, Nobel Peace Prize

Haydée Marín, President of the Panamerican Comitte of IGFM

Miroslav Kusy, Memmber of the Parlamient of the Republic of Slovakia

Anton Manolescu, President of the Human Rights Comisión of the Romanian Parliament

Sergel Grigorianc, Helsinki Group of Moscow

Adam Michnik, Polish Intellectual and Reporter.

Ricardo Bofill, President of the Committee for Human Rights of Cuba.

Lee Van Thau, Executive Director of the Human Rights Coordinator of Vietnam.

Sergej Kovaljov, Russian Movement for Human Rights.

"The subterfuges and false arguments that "Chavism" is employing in Venezuela are the same that have been used by other despots that ended up exterminating millions of human beings with the only real goal of perpetuating themselves in power and of creating dynasties of executioners. V. Lenin, Adolph Hitler, Mao Tse Tung, Benito Mussolini and Fidel Castro among other representatives of twentieth century repression have established the formulas for squashing all vestiges of democratic rights and civil liberties."

That paragraph is a beauty. If Chavez were half as despotic as this bullshit claims. He would have exterminated the bastards that kidnapped him. Instead he let them go about their business. I doubt your boys would have been that nice if the shoe were in the other foot. At the very least they should have all been in jail for treason.

US Congressman Barney Frank:

"I am very disappointed at the Venezuelan National Electoral Council's use of hyper-technical points and controversial procedural rulings to repress what appears to be the clear will of a sufficient number of Venezuelan citizens to move the country to a constitutional referendum on President Chavez"

Stalin, Mao y Hitler? Vete con ese cuento de camino otro lado.

We had our own little coup here in 2000. Does anyone remember? OK then, the only reason we didn't face massive repression in a scale that would make Tianemen Square look like a picnic, was because people here didn't do a god damn thing about it. That's right everyone was punked out by an illiterate primate and his puppeteers. We don't even have a semblance of real elections or a decent democratic process anymore. So I'm going to suggest that we get our affairs in order. Before we get the balls to tell others how to handle theirs. Honest criticism is one thing. But this seems to be turning into a contest of how many things we can pin on Hugo Chavez. If some trigger happy asshole murders someone people need to know all of the facts, period. I never blamed Clinton for Amadou Diallo or Abner Louima being murdered or tortured in cold blood. I didn't even blame Giulliani. But why not, weren't they President and Mayor? It had to be their fault. The people of Vieques know first hand what it's like to piss off Uncle Sam. But you see they were poor and didn't own their own media so for decades they were ignored until Al Sharpton went to jail for them. Then it became news. Never mind that we're all US citizens. The truth is people all over Latin America are fucking sick and tired of our government sticking up for a bunch of spoiled racist assholes who refuse to share the wealth that belongs to all. Can't we leave these people alone? Of course not, they have oil and a lot of other goodies that we want. We're so full of shit that we can't even remember that the same script has been played out in Chile, Nicaragua, Guatemala and the Dominican Republic just to name few. A pacifist like Salvador Allende was accused of exactly the same things Chavez is being accused of. Strikes, upper class riots, all of it the same. How many more times are they going to pull the same shit? Then we all know what happened Sept 11th 1973. People are tired of gringo imperialism dressed up as bullshit condescending Neo-Liberalism. So keep posting and spreading half truths and innuendo. If or when they finally destroy the Bolivarian government and their dream that everyone can have some equality. We should all consider ourselves guilty. His administration has given a voice to the voiceless and the invisible in that society. Once they're gone all of that will be gone as well and then we'll never hear about human rights again because they will be violated by one of our puppets. I've been told first hand by Venezuelans how the Policia Metroplolitana routinely beat up and murdered people, dealt drugs, harassed dark skinned people for no reason, etc, for years before Chavez came into power. Funny how no one gave a shit back then. But that's life, I guess.

& even some on this board who will grasp at "technicalities" to justify the eradication of Democracy.

Thank you, for the people of Venezuela, Cuba, & Haiti for shining the light on that garbage!

to justify the eradication of democracy...Chavez

why stop the recall if he's so popular with the masses there??

answer me that you great defender of democracy

being represented by government IS democracy. It is unfortunate, but not surprising, that you can't see it that way.

Your little "technicalities" have nothing to do with democracy.

Bush, by the way, won on "technicalities". Were you defending those too? Don't answer.

It's been like that for decades now. Why spoil their fun now?

what part of Venezuela's constitutional law don't you understand?

afraid of something?? why worry....the "people" are with you

being counted). I think America would have been much better off if the ball bounced the other way on a technicality, but the Republicans would have called THAT a coup by technicality.

I think nothing is more obvious than that you want all the technicality balls bouncing AGAINST the fascists down in Venezuela. They need some time to get non-fascist media and to devolve more power (economic, political and cultural) down to the people who have none right now.

Once that's done, I'll worry less about what the fascists are trying to do.

would be disputed, and would set the perfect precedent for a foreign invasion. We have seen that pattern before, and Chavez is no idiot.

V

And, as such, their misinformation and inaccurate "facts" mean zero to people here who actually revere democracy.

And they are worthy of no less than to be ignored utterly. It's great to have dissenting voices, but dissent based on obvious propaganda is not worthy of anyone's time.

In my ever-so-humble view. :evilgrin:

know where its at.

We all need to remember the other 9-11 a bit more often. Chileans certainly do.

V

Thank goddess youall stopped posting Spanish!

I like Chavez. I am suspicious of supposedly 3.5 million signatures in 4 days. The money and organization that bought that could have also bought the signatures. Also having secretaries write out the persons address sounds very fishy. The process should be monitored and Chavez should be held no more accountable than say the US is or Germany. No more and No less.

Since the signatories have a process to verify the orginal signature that really seems the best way to verify.

...willing to cut him some slack.

He was the object of a coup, for god's sake. Most leaders would have put up the barricades, and engaged in a putsch. I think Chavez has done a remarkable job of maintaining a democracy in the face of the anti-democratic forces aligned against him.

the ID check, the finger prints, the witnesses from all sides??

or was it the special fraud proof bank paper??

..before súmate handed in the signatures - what possible explanation can there be for that, eh? also the bit about a "nonpartisan civic group" that "rigorously audited" the signatures; kindly please share with us who that "nonpartisan civic group" might be? sounds like this piece was written by the NED!

US Congressman Barney Frank:

"I am very disappointed at the Venezuelan National Electoral Council's use of hyper-technical points and controversial procedural rulings to repress what appears to be the clear will of a sufficient number of Venezuelan citizens to move the country to a constitutional referendum on President Chavez"

US Congressman Barney Frank:

"I am very disappointed at the Venezuelan National Electoral Council's use of hyper-technical points and controversial procedural rulings to repress what appears to be the clear will of a sufficient number of Venezuelan citizens to move the country to a constitutional referendum on President Chavez"

I have been surprised over the years, how many "progressives" seem to find excuses for the likes of Aristede,Chavez,Ortega, and their likes.
A thug is a thug, R.W. or L. W.

another hero of the 'progessives" (no offence to any real ones)

But yet Bush's minions are running roughshod over and plotting coups & invasions against other nations. A thug is a thug. A thug nation is a thug nation.

Don't see Chavez, Aristide, Ortega, nor Castro doing such things, nor could they as they do not have the reach or might.

I'm no longer surprised to see 'progressives' acting as Bush family/US Latin American/Caribbean policy apologists. US hegemony has always had a bipartisan stamp of approval.

NT!

I know lots of people in Cuba too...I don't know who is telling you that...you cannot criticize the govt there PERIOD

Cuba is ranked next to last in the world for press freedom

http://www.rsf.fr/article.php3?id_article=8248

Cuba, the world's biggest prison for journalists

In Cuba, they don't just censor you now - they throw you in jail.


President Fidel Castro's police rounded up 27 independent journalists on 18 March, along with more than 50 political dissidents, all for the same reason. At the beginning of April, Cuban courts dispatched each of these journalists to prison for between 14 and 27 years after three days of sham trials. They were punished for allegedly working with the United States "against the independence and territorial integrity of the state," which is a crime under article 91 of the Cuban criminal code and under article 88 on "protecting national independence" (known as the "gag law").


Those targeted had regularly published articles in the foreign press, mostly American, since no independent or privately-owned newspaper or radio or TV station is allowed in Cuba, and had recently dared to start up two underground publications in Cuba itself - "De Cuba" and "Luz Cubana" - which was unprecedented in the 44 years of President Castro's rule.


This new persecution of political opponents and independent journalists, as well as the execution on 11 April of three would-be refugees who hijacked a ferry in a bid to reach Florida, has revolted democrats around the world, even leading the European Union to reconsider its future economic cooperation with Cuba.

http://www.rsf.fr/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=367

trying to assassinate their leaders, and I'll show you a country that isn't ranked last on the list of 'freedoms.'

Do you think we want to destroy them because they're week on freedoms, or do you think they're week on freedoms because they have to be vigilant against the covert and overt attacks from the most powerful, ruthless and avaricious country in the world?

You talking to yourself..

"don't forget Castro" posted by windansea
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x402628#403330

ah well..since Fidel and Hugo are good buddies and such defenders of the people...:shrug:

"ah well..since Fidel and Hugo are good buddies and such defenders of the people..."



Actually, its the other way around. The people of Venezuela and Cuba defend their leaders.

and all your posts defending Bush's actions :)

Chavez calls Bush 'asshole'

February 29, 2004

just a couple of fighters for human rights and freedom who have spoken out in defense of constitutional rights for Venezuelans

who are all the people posting in this thread that seem to oppose this?

tough decision on who to believe??

Watch the movie The Revolution Will Not Be Televised. They just screened it in my city for the first time today. So as they say check your local listings.

if a majority support him...he won't be recalled

I'm amused with all the progressives here in DU who haven't a clue and swallow Chavez propaganda without even chewing

And then, of course, you shill it here, either because you really believe it, or you want us to believe it.

We're not buying what you're selling. Try a different product.

so more rational readers can actually learn something

thanks for the kicks...

My "product" is no diferent from that of Barney Frank, the Carter Center, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, Reporters without Borders and others who support human rights, free press, and the constitutional rights of Venezuelans

I also have lots of friends all over Venezuela and talk to them frequently....and you??

YOU"RE AMUSED?

You know what I'm amused, by you. No wait, as a matter of fact I'm NOT amused, in fact you PISS ME OFF!

You support every "regime change", every overthrow of a democratically elected leader in the world, perpetuated by the Bush regime, and WE amuse YOU? You gotta be kidding me.

If we here in the United States could initiate a recall with a mere 10, 20 or even 30% of the populaces signature we'd have had a recall on Bush by February 2001. Would you support that if we did? No, you wouldn't but you will probably say otherwise. You can because you know it can't happen here.

Chavez knows that the pro-corporate capitalists want him gone. He knows the power they wield and the lengths they will go to to remove him. He knows he's a couple weeks away from being in the CAF in a room next to Aristide begging for a damned phone so he can let the world know what they did to him. He also knows just how far they would go to corrupt any recall referendum. He'd be a fool to to allow it to take place lightly.

Are you actually saying that you believe those 3.6 million signatures were all legitimate? Come on, say that straight out with your face hanging out. You know what happened with the last coup attempt. You know that the media has been bought out by capitalists from outside of Venezuela. You know that many of those who struck were actually ORDERED to by the very companies they worked for. You know all this.

I'll tell you what I know. I know some people in Venezuela and some from Venezuela. I know that those who are poor in Venezuela love Chavez. I know that those who don't like Chavez also have a history of exploiting those poor people in Venezuela.

I also know this. I know a freaking TON of Haitians. The majority of them are deeply troubled by the overthrow of Aristide. Many people hoped for more from Aristide but remarkably they mainly seem to realize the odds he had to face to get anything done. They appreciate the schools he built, the orphanages, they even appreciate his stance with the international trade organizations. More has been done for Haitians, especially poor ones, under Aristide than was ever done under the Duvaliers or any of the other despots that ruled there.

You can continue to espouse the benefits of being assimilated by the Bush regime all you want. Most of us know damned well better. The fact that you are espousing same at the bloody Democratic Underground irritates the hell out of me because I KNOW that you are here for purposes you dare not state aloud. My friend, you are approximately as Democratic as Genghis Khan.

Have a smurfy day.

1. Chavez himself supported the contitutional law that provides for and details the referendum process.

2. Perhaps you know more about election law than the Carter Center but I doubt it, as noted below they had representatives on site to verify the the validity of the signature gathering process and also criticize the Chavez govt for challenging said validity.

In this process, in particular, we find sufficient controls, including security paper for the petitions, full identification of the citizen with signature and thumbprint, summary forms (actas) listing the petition (planillas) serial numbers during the collection process, party witnesses, personnel trained and designated by the CNE, verification of each petition form and a cross-check with the summary forms, a cross-check of the names with the voters list, and a mechanism for appeal and correction.

We have had some discrepancies with the CNE over the verification criteria. In the case of the petition forms in which the basic data of several signers, but not the signatures themselves, appear to have been filled in by one person, we do not share the criterion of the CNE to separate these signatures, sending them to the appeals process in order to be rectified by the citizens. These occur in such large numbers that they could have an impact on the outcome of the process.

http://www.cartercenter.org/viewdoc.asp?docID=1631&submenu=news

As noted elsewhere here, Congressman Frank supports my points.

"I am very disappointed at the Venezuelan National Electoral Council's use of hyper-technical points and controversial procedural rulings to repress what appears to be the clear will of a sufficient number of Venezuelan citizens to move the country to a constitutional referendum on President Chavez"

I guess me, Jimmy, and Barney are all Genghis Khan democrats yes???

The ones I see here on a weekly basis, call their families every few days. They sure are telling me a different story. So you're not impressing anyone here. These people are actually the very first Venezuelans I've met (and I've met a shit load in my lifetime, even went to school with some) that don't refer to "niggers" and "indios" as if they weren't people. So go figure.

that Venezuelans could and should trust the election commission.

http://www.truthnews.net/daily/2004020012.htm

U.S. President Jimmy Carter said the Venezuelan people remain committed to democracy, and that he believed the National Election Commission would make what he termed "the proper decision" regarding the referendum petition.

that certain people here don't like. Funny, ain't it?

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1211

"Venezuela's National Electoral Council (CNE) announced today that not enough valid signatures were collected by the opposition to force a recall referendum on President Hugo Chavez without first re-verifying one million signatures directly with the signers."


windansea seems to have some problems getting his facts straight ...

... which doesn't surprise me at all, given that he gets his "facts" *ROFLMAO* from the Washington Times. Maybe he could ask George Bush I. for some more information, or maybe he could ask Mr. Moon for some more enlightenment?

http://www.perkel.com/politics/moonies/

the original post is an article from the Washington Post

post #1 is from a Venezuelan blogger at Salon

read them slowly and completely and hopefully you will understand whats going on with the signatures

otherwise...don't bother...your source is 100% pro Chavez...kind of like the Washingtom Times is 100% pro bush

Quote windandthesea:

your source is 100% pro Chavez...kind of like the Washingtom Times is 100% pro bush

I see, and the reason you're quoting a source that is '100% pro Bush' on a Democratic discussion board is ...?

The internet can be a confusing place. And sometimes you end up on places you don't want to be.
May I suggest that you edit your bookmark which led you to this discussion board and change the URL to www.freerepublic.com?

Careful mate, he's baiting you. You see we can't accuse him of being a Freeper and he knows it. He's flying "under the radar". As long as he stay within the rules we have to do so too.

Not that I'm implying anything............

:beer:

"I don't even like Aristide and I have not talked to any Haitians about Haiti except Aristide," Mr. Rangel said. "I just like the rule of law. We have never said that we supported Aristide."

or maybe the one by Barney Frank???

"I am very disappointed at the Venezuelan National Electoral Council's use of hyper-technical points and controversial procedural rulings to repress what appears to be the clear will of a sufficient number of Venezuelan citizens to move the country to a constitutional referendum on President Chavez"

you have to love the Chavez apologists here...when they see something they don't like they attack the source or the messenger

Again...try to read the original and #1 posts...from the Washington Post and a Salon blog...they are full of information on how Chavez is trying to subvert democracy...funny that so many "progressives" seem to be ok with that.

& how "inadvertently" you are pushing Washington's propaganda to put it kindly since the rules forbid me from saying what I really think. You might want to do a little research on Rangel and Aristide's history.

Imagine Windandsea- "Think of it, Niggers speaking French!"
Secretary of State William Jennings Bryant

and demanding rights, voting rights; not wanting to push the bus for a bunch of FTAA/NAFTA colonial masters fanning themselves on the bus, wailing & wringing their hands about how the poor just don't understand how much they care.

What a remarkable thing that you care enough to pop up all over the place justifying Bush's actions. It's unfortunate you don't devote half the zeal you demonstrate in demonizing Chavez & Aristide to exposing the Bush adminstration's definition of "caring". With care like that, it's a good thing the people are taking things into their own hands. We know better than to rely on the people in the bus.

"I am very disappointed at the Venezuelan National Elections Council's use of hyper-technical points and controversial procedural rulings to repress what appears to be the clear will of a sufficient number of Venezuelan citizens to move the country to a constitutional referendum on President Chavez."

snip


Breaking News



Posted: Friday, March 05, 2004
By: Roy S. Carson


US Congressman Barney Frank has "no confidence" in the constitutional autonomy of Venezuela's National Elections Council (CNE)
US congressman Barney Frank

In a press release issued from Washington D.C. today, US congressman Barney Frank (D-Ma) writes that "I am very disappointed at the Venezuelan National Elections Council's use of hyper-technical points and controversial procedural rulings to repress what appears to be the clear will of a sufficient number of Venezuelan citizens to move the country to a constitutional referendum on President Chavez."

"I call on President Chavez to urge his supporters on the CNE to continue talks facilitated by the OAS and Carter Center to work out procedures to guarantee the rights of citizens who wish to confirm or refute their signatures."

snip

Contacted in Washington this afternoon, Frank told VHeadline.com that he sees President Chavez Frias as pressuring the CNE to declare the referendum petition invalid ... "I've spoken with the Carter Center and I believe that the signatures that were gathered without them filling out the forms, that there was a miscommunication, a misunderstanding and there does not appear to be any doubt about these signatures/thumbprints and that is pretty well verifiable."

snip

"If it (my information) turns out wrong I will retract my statement, but I'm afraid that my impression was that pressure had been put on the CNE or the majority members and I could not have a lot of confidence in the validity of that process where people who had admittedly signed would have to come back and verify ... if they sign and put their thumb print there, what's the point in making them come back?"

note that the article also describes Frank as an "open homosexual"

wonder what that has to do with it????

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=16242

Frank told VHeadline.com that he sees President Chavez Frias as pressuring the CNE to declare the referendum petition invalid ... "I've spoken with the Carter Center and I believe that the signatures that were gathered without them filling out the forms, that there was a miscommunication, a misunderstanding and there does not appear to be any doubt about these signatures/thumbprints and that is pretty well verifiable."

So?

Mika tells DUers that he sees Frank and the Carter Center as pressuring the CNE to declare the referendum petition valid.

How can the CNE determine if the sigs are legitimate without getting "hypercritical"?

Sorta like suggesting that US absentee ballots that don't have witness sigs or ballots that are post dated post-election day is getting "hypercritical". Would Mr Frank suggest that as being "hypercritical" as well?