ELCA votes to allow gay pastors

Source: Minneapolis Star Tribune

Gay ministers will be allowed to lead parishes, representatives of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) voted today in Minneapolis.

The 559-451 vote marks a historic change for the 4.8 million ELCA members, including 830,000 in Minnesota.

The vote repeals the ELCA's ban on gay clergy unless they agreed to remain celibate. The new position allows the installation of gay pastors but leaves the decision to call a gay pastor up to individual congregations and synods.

Delegates heeded warnings not to react as the outcome was read, but onlookers in the gallery hugged one another in celebration.

Read more: http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/faith/53859967.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aU1yDEmP:QMDCinchO7DU

---

Excellent News.

You go, Lutherans!

This year the Episcopal Church of American made it formal that GLBT folks can serve in any capacity in the church. We also started the formal steps in preparation to perform same sex weddings. My church did its first last year. We're taking grief about it from conservative parishes and from the rest of the world, but we're sticking with what's right.

:thumbsup: :applause:

I guess this means Minneapolis will now be destroyed by tornadoes, hurricanes or a flood, '''' or something.

But instead I'm going to praise today's members for being better than their predecessors. :thumbsup:

first step back in 1969, and we're still putting one foot in front of the other. There will always be pockets of homophobia, but we are quickly approaching critical mass where the vast majority of American's won't consider gay rights "special rights", rather they will look scornfully at their ancestors for treating gays as second-class citizens.

I think that outcome is inevitable. The bigger problem is the horrible treatment and inequality to be suffered until that day...

that neither you nor me, will be around to see the day when horrible treatment of those who don't "conform" is eliminated. It seems to be part and parcel of the human experience.

As long as there are humans who feel inferior, are insecure, lack education, they will lash out at those who are different from them. Fearful people are dangerous people.

but I was speaking to the issue of treatment of gay and lesbian people - seeing the huge difference in the way my kids react to someone different in that way gives me great hope.

Friends of mine, rediscovered since high school and now out would never have dared so many years ago in school. My kids' friends now find it all no big deal. And the fact that now th ELCA and my Episcopal church are moving in the right direction is also heartening.

No, there will always be some group of people or another that too many find to be "them". The Sneeches will continue to be relevant for a long time, I'm afraid.

:sarcasm:

but my very conservative parish may dump me tomorrow....
My predecessor was homophobic, and never missed an opportunity
to 'indoctrinate' the pew sitters.
I've preached diversity and openness...
but when you hear weekly how much god hate gays,
it take time..patience and love to melt frozen hearts.

I may be washing dishes in the local diner next week.
ah well...

I was raised and confirmed in ELCA, but I went to a Missouri synod k-9 school, so as a result I was made think that God was something to be :scared: . I'm not an active member at all, but my 70 something year old mom is an active member in her Wisconsin ELCA church. My lifelong friendships with gay people I *know* made a difference with her and her understanding of these issues. (She *adores* my gay friends) I can't imagine her Pastor being against this, but I can only imagine how crazy things can become as a result of this decision with some of the blustery laity. I'm so sorry if your parish is going to revolt, but you know this was the correct decision. My best to you :hug:

The rub is that the Congregations "Call the Pastor". I'm sure a few ELCA hard cases will join the LCMS-- Oh well their loss.

One thing for sure though !!!! It will be an interesting debate at "Call Committees" when the Presiding Bishop recommends the usual 4 or 5 candidates to be called and the reaction of the members of the Call Committee, as to who to "Call".

For those who don't know how the ELCA works, the Parish Hires the Pastor. The Call Committee after months of reviewing and interviewing, makes a recommendation of a Candidate. Then the entire Congregational Membership, at an open meeting decides to "Extend a Call" by a secret vote to the "Called Candidate" after a long lively Town Hall type of meeting.



--- Not like the Catholics, who stick to the Concept of Russian Political Kommissar Installation.

Thanks for your thoughts, saigon68. :hi:

Like you said, it's up to the individual parishes - no parish will be "forced" to call a gay Pastor, but I know there are plenty of parishes who would be delighted to call a gay Pastor and their partner/spouse.

I've already told my council that I'm not leaving,
and as long as I'm pastor, neither is the congregation,
but time will tell.

And ya know? I'm not worried about it at all.
It's outta my hands.
If they want to go, they go.

As Jesus said: "does this offend you? Will you go too?"

Those conservatives really don't know the Bible..
only the 'thou shalt nots.."

Tis a shame...

Are the ELCA and LCMS very different from each other?

Do these two denominations differ much in doctrine, in how they run their business, in their views on evolution, or in other ways?

Are they constantly fighting each other?

Martin Luther criticised the Roman Catholic church,
1517 put a post-it note on the chapel door at Wittenberg Castle,
and all hell broke loose.

As you didn't ever ever criticise the pope (especially on money issue)
they put price on his head and he hid out in Wartberg Castle,
translating the latin/Greek/hebrew bible in German,
and sneaking out to the pubs at night in a disguise.

His coworkers energized the parishes to break with Rome
(he didn't wanna break with the pope.. just for the pope to wise up)..
but the powers-that-be got really pissed, and there was war after war
after war.

{ An aside: in Europe the churches that followed Luther's
Teachings were/are called "Evangelical" (not in the sense we have
in the states) but simply meaning preaching the word...}

Luther's teachings spread from Germany to Scandinavia..
and that's the rub.
In the colonial days, Swedes came to the colonies..
bringing their theology with them.
During the SEcond Great Migration in the late 1800's
Scandinavians came en masse due to a great famine,
and settled, especially in the midwest.
As we know (ahem) Scandinavians are liberal,
permissive and progressive.
Mostly scandinavians and some latvians are the ELCA
the most liberal of the Lutherans in USA.

GErmans, of course, came to colonies too,
but during the 1800's more Germans came,
and those that settled in Missouri became
the Missouri Synod, a much more fundamentalist,
biblically inerrant, literalistic theology.

Do we fight? Missour Synod is always wagging
its finger in ELCA's face... I guess now for
sure the ELCA will burn in hell..

And the Wisconsin Synod won't even talk to us...

I don't care.

The first half of your short answer is a summary of the Reformation and other stuff I am familiar with. Still, your take on it is original and amusing.

The second half, which has more to do with American history, is new to me.

Earlier this year, I took Latin from a guy who is an ordained minister in the LCMS. He wanted to make sure I didn't confuse his church with the ELCA. Before that, I had naively supposed that Lutherans were a homogeneous group.

Another aside: Lutheran churches seem to have the best music. J. S. Bach might have something to do with that.

The Lutheran Church was the state church of Brandenburg-Prussia, but for some reason, the royal family of Brandenburg kept sending its kids to college in Heidelberg, where the university faculty were not Lutheran, but Reformed. So, a king of Brandenburg-Prussia became friends with the liberal theologian Friederich Schleiermacher. Schleiermacher convinced him that he should do something about his ecumenical feelings, so the king issued a decree making Protestantism--Lutheran, Reformed or Pietist--the state church. The Lutherans were PISSED about losing their privileged position as a state church.

Many of them left Germany and came to this country, still pissed about being forced to be ecumenical. They swore such a thing would never happen again, and have been unwilling to worship or do other cooperative things with other Christians, let alone other faiths, ever since. They settled in areas with other Germans, including members of the combined "union churches" made up of Prussians of all Protestant traditions. The Lutherans had a bad habit of burning these churches down in places like Missouri and southern Illinois.

Want a see a head explode? Say something nice about Schleiermacher to an LCMS pastor. My favorite sport!

He is a freeway flier and may or may not be on campus in the Fall.
If he is, I'll take your suggestion and say something nice about Schleiermacher. :evilgrin:

By the way, when I visited the German-speaking part of Switzerland, I was surprised to find that all Protestant churches are described as "reformierte".

LCMS doesn't allow female pastors, or elders whose job is to decide on things considered to be spiritual. Although some LCMS churches allow women elders. I wouldn't say they are constantly fighting. I knew ELCA of a gay pastor who committed suicide having to do with his homosexuality. I also know of a LCMS pastor who was removed from his congregation when people found out he had a boyfriend and was married to a woman This pastor was heard to comment to a young man that he was obsessed with sex because the boy was heard to comment to another young boy something about his balls.ELCA isn't strict about who comes for communion, LCMS is more strict about this.

Now I've learned a few more things I didn't know.

Thank you.

the most conservative Synod under the umbrella of Lutheranism, if that helps you to distinguish the differences between the Synods.

In addition, the ELCA churches have the liberty to use scripture in the historical context - trying to understand the world *at that time* - and uses critical understanding to analyze the allegories, parables and "prophecies" as well as historical cultural norms and practices to make better sense of the aforementioned. It is definitely a not "literal interpretation" of the Word as many other Christian bodies practice. :hi:

According to this article in Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Bachmann#Religion_in_the_2006_campaign

"Bachmann stated that her 'church does not believe that the Pope is the Anti-Christ, that's absolutely false' ... Bachmann is a member of a church that is part of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, whose doctrine teaches that the Roman Catholic papacy is the Anti-Christ identified in Scripture."

Wikipedia's source for the latter statement is

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&collectionID=795&contentID=4441&shortcutID=5297

according to which

"As Martin Luther grew in his appreciation of the gospel, he also grew in his recognition that the Papacy is the Antichrist."

That's not very ecumenical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_Evangelical_Lutheran_Synod


Differences from ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America)

* Scriptural interpretation — WELS confesses that the Bible is the inspired and inerrant Word of God and follows a Historical-Grammatical approach to interpretation. The meaning of a portion of Scripture is discerned by paying careful attention to grammar, syntax, vocabulary and context. In this regard, the historical setting forms part of the context of Scripture, the text itself indicating how important a part. The ELCA, on the other hand, has been open to Historical-Critical Methods of Biblical interpretation which seek to understand the scriptures with primary reference to historical and social context. Most other specific doctrinal differences between the two churches stem from this overarching disagreement.
* Creationism — WELS teaches that the account of creation given in Genesis 1-3 is a factual, historical account<3>, while the ELCA has not enforced an official position, allowing members to embrace positions ranging from strict creationism to Theistic evolution.
* Sexuality — WELS teaches that extramarital sex and homosexual relations are sins, while the ELCA and its predecessor churches have been somewhat open to multiple viewpoints on these matters. The ELCA does not officially permit the ordination of non-celibate homosexuals or perform same-sex unions, although in 2007 the Churchwide Assembly passed a resolution calling on bishops to withhold action against churches performing such ordinations<4>. There have recently been sharp divisions within the church over these issues, and a statement is expected during the 2009 Churchwide Assembly<5>.
* Fellowship — WELS teaches that churches must agree on all doctrines of Scripture before they can enjoy any form of fellowship with each other, while the ELCA teaches that agreement on all aspects of doctrine is not necessarily required as a prerequisite for fellowship. It thus practices fellowship with a handful of other mainline Protestant denominations.
* Role of women in the church — WELS holds that, according to Scripture, women may not serve as clergy nor vote within their congregations where authority is exercised over men (see above), while the ELCA’s three predecessor churches began ordaining women into the ministry in the 1970s.

In 23 years in ministry, no church has ever held me responsible for a Synod decision. Of course, the UCC works differently than most denominations. No decision by one "covenanted partner" in the church is binding on another. That is, Synod can say it thinks churches should call gays, but local congregations are not required to do what Synod says. This was hard to explain even to church members, in 2005, when Synod passed the Marriage Equality Resolution. I supported the resolution, but knew it wasn't binding on local churches. Try explaining that to some parishioners, or to the idiots at the local newspaper.

So, I'm hoping your congregation understands that this change will come but more gradually than they may expect. They won't have a gay pastor next week. Keep preaching justice and kindness, and they'll get it...however slowly. :)

EVEry congregation is... individual.

Would they blame me?
Realistically, no.
but you know..'Kill the messenger.'

I got thru the Saturday night service,
and no one walked out.

But there are some folks... who were force fed a diet
of homophobia and bible thumping.
Of course no synodical decision is binding,
but they fear,fear, fear.
In a way I understand... you only know what you know.
They were never even allowed conversation about it.

So... its a growth process.
I do pray for them...

You're in PA. That's where the MOST conservative UCCs are. Don't know why, but that's where we keep 'em. I feel for you.

I've always been fortunate to serve churches with a strong sense of denominational loyalty. I serve the only openly gay friendly church in this area, and my congregation is growing because of it. Most of our new members in recent years have either been glbt or had family members who are. My congregation enjoys the growth that's come with being "the gay church". And the members who've come have been real assets to the church--musicians, strong administrative types, young families, the kinds of people churches hope to gain. So, my congregation has been fine with any denominational statements (again, the denomination doesn't make decisions in the UCC) about glbt issues.

Here's hoping your church will see the "up side" as well!

Nobody stormed out; I read the letter from the bishop,
which was quite good. And preached... trust and seeing the
'big picture' rather than a wee li'l bible verse.
I had them laughing when I refered to folks who use the Bible
as a 'fortune cookie'(when you open it, find a verse
and declare it 'holy' without knowing context.)

Yes, I'm in the Lehigh Valley, and you're right:
most of the UCC churches there are very conservative.

Much of the very early German migration to the colony of
PA was to the Lehigh Valley area; most of the Lutheran/UCC churches
here are very old. The predecessor church to the UCC was the REformed,
or 'Evangelical Reformed,' and many of them still have a stick up
the butt about much of the progress of the UCC.
Eastern PA has still a great number of 'Union' churches,
where a Lutheran Congregation and Reformed combined to build one
building, and then shared the premises.... very interesting.

UCC is much more congregational than ELCA...
the UCC is a loose confederation, but the parishes make their
own governing rules, and even have their own ways of calling staff.

and Northern IL are as progressive as any formerly Congregational UCCs. Oh, and it's "Evangelical and Reformed"--a merger of the German (and German Swiss) Reformed Church (The Reformed Church in the US), and the Evangelical Synod of North America, the American version of the Prussian state church. My home church was German Evangelical, and, again, quite progressive. The Evangelical Synod has its roots in the work of Schleiermacher and other classic liberal theologians of the 17th, 18th, and 19th Cs--people like Harnack. So, that's the tradition I was raised in, then went to "Congregational" seminary in New England. I've served in three of the four traditions that formed the UCC. The only one I haven't served is German Reformed. I might consider serving a Swiss Reformed church, but I have no interest in serving the Pennsylvania style Reformed, thanks!

Glad today went well for you. We had a congregational meeting to decide about selling some farmland, and some guy who has literally not attended worship once in the 5 years I've been here, showed up and tried to dominate the meeting. I was furious!! Someone said "But pastor, he gives money to the church, so that's how he's a member." I replied, "That's how you maintain membership in a credit union--not how you're a member of a church." :grr:

Again, glad your congregation is dealing with this change well! And nice to meet another colleague on DU! :hi:

Have you visited the Progressive Christian Group?

:pals:

Although it makes you wonder, with their newly strengthened relationship with the UMC, what that means for any progress in the Methodist churches... Nothing has looked very positive there.

My mom's church had a liberal, intelligent pastor (who was training to be a biologist before he went into the clergy) for several years was outed by what was a coup by the wing-nuts in the congregation, lead by the little rural town's Puke mayor, when the pastor came out in support of gay marriage and gay pastors and also criticized creationists.

:kick:

I've been following this for years as the church leaders have compromised, taken baby steps, played it safe and worried about offending people. It's nice to see that we've finally accepted "practicing" (as they would say it during those meetings I attended) gay and lesbian pastors. Unfortunately it's going to cost several churches - I believe one in Phoenix has already threatened to leave the synod...

and the fact that they have finally decided to become more inclusive. Lutherans have really struggled with any kind of change in the past. Something good is happening in us.

many of them weren't keen on ordaining women 50 years ago and that battle has largely been won.

The thing is, older congregants are usually less comfortable with change. But once the church goes ahead and changes they will see its not really a big deal. People have decided they really like women pastors, and they will figure out that gay people can be good pastors too. Fear of the unknown and fear of change can be overcome.

Edit: I'm talking about the liberal Protestant churches, where critical thinking is allowed, of course. I don't expect the fundamentalist churches to change much, but I think they will have a hard time keeping the younger people, who are more open minded.

Their health plan covers abortion; their private schools teach evolution. They're obviously pretty progressive. Shortly before I joined an ELCA church about ten years ago I spoke with the pastor over coffee in the lobby, and he kept trying to say in his most diplomatic way that "gay people come here and that's fine with us" without actually using those words.

I left that church a couple of years into it, mostly because my atheism is a real hindrance to being a Christian, though I was still welcome. My kid had a great time in their Sunday school, too, but the UU church was a better fit.

from 3rd to 9th grade. (There wasn't an ELCA school for me to attend in my town.) I received a superb education with the exception of evolution and sex education. Our science textbooks were "secular" therefore they contained a chapter on evolution. We skipped that chapter and instead received a lecture reaffirming the church's dedication to creationism - and that evolution was a evil mockery of God's gift of life.

I appreciate that ELCA schools teach evolution. There was a giant gap in my education when I went on to High School due to my lack of education about evolution. I did catch up, but the fact that they don't even teach it at all left me at a disadvantage when I left the corridors of a church school.

The paltry sex education was taught in 9th grade and covered the basic function of menstruation and hormonal changes. 9th grade was rather late in the game especially for the girl, but I guess it was better then nothing - but it wasn't very informative and the information provided came a few years too late.

At least your few years at the ELCA introduced you to the weak coffee and lemon bars we Lutherans live for.



:hi: