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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:56 AM
Original message
Lebanese man is target of first rendition under Obama
Source: Los Angeles Times

Contractor Raymond Azar is arrested in Afghanistan, hooded, stripped and flown to the U.S. His alleged crime? Bribery. A human rights activist calls the case 'bizarre.'

August 22, 2009

Reporting from Alexandria, Va. - A Lebanese citizen being held in a detention center here was hooded, stripped naked for photographs and bundled onto an executive jet by FBI agents in Afghanistan in April, making him the first known target of a rendition during the Obama administration.

Unlike terrorism suspects who were secretly snatched by the CIA and harshly interrogated and imprisoned overseas during the George W. Bush administration, Raymond Azar was flown to this Washington suburb for a case involving inflated invoices.

Azar, 45, pleaded guilty Tuesday to conspiracy to commit bribery, the only charge against him. He faces a maximum of five years in prison, but a sentence of 2 1/2 years or less is likely under federal guidelines.

<snip>

But Joanne Mariner, terrorism and counter-terrorism director at Human Rights Watch, called the case "bizarre."

"He was treated like a high-security terrorist instead of someone accused of a relatively minor white-collar crime," she said.


Read more: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/washingtondc/la-na-rendition22-2009aug22,0,569241.story
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 02:21 AM
Response to Original message
1. Weird story, I hope it is not true. nt
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Bringing them to the US for trial is not equivalent to rendering to a third party for torture.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Exactly. They transported him. The LA Times is using a loaded word, deliberately, IMO.
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Edited: I think the term "rendition" is not technically incorrect in the headline.
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 04:10 AM by Heidi
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. even if technically correct, it's still misleading
this reminds me of the whole anti-semite thang.

yes, it would TECHNICALLY be correct to refer to anti-arab bias as a form of anti-semitism.

however, people use anti-semitism to be equivalent to anti-jewish, yet we see pedants all the time in discussions about anti-semitism go into the "well technically...".

similarly, the word rendition, in common usage refers to transports OTHER than those where we take the guy back to the US to face trial.

iow, it may very well be that it's technically correct, but it's also misleading, and poor form for a newspaper to phrase as such.

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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. nice try trying to dismiss bigotry against Arabs n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BunkerHill24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. Bingo!
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Do you think readers don't know the difference between "extraordinary rendition" and
"rendition"?

I do think it's probably a loaded term to use in a headline. At the same time, I wonder how often the US surrenders US citizens to other nations to stand trial for white-collar crimes.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. i think people now associate the word "rendition"
with extraordinary rendition. extradite is the word we normally use when we talk about bringing a person to (real) justice through transport.

as a law enforcement officer, i have participarated in many extraditions.

heck, didn't they even recently release a movie called "rendition" which was all about (of course) an EXTRAordinary rendition?

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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. An extradition, even an international one, does not involve hooding,
stripping the defendant naked for photographs, etc.

As a law enforcement officer, have you ever participated in that sort of extradition?
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. can i plead the 5th?
actually,the answer is no.

i am not a policy expert, but i am pretty sure that would violate policy and get me in trouble.

it is keen insight like this, that has kept me scandal free for 20+ years :)

but i still think NOWadays when most people hear 'rendition' , they think extraordinary rendition until otherwise qualified.

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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
36. The more I think about it, the more it smells like a RW hit piece.
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
31. It is misleading, to say the least.
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
32. Remember, it serves RW interests for Obama to be perceived as being no diff than Bush
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
33. Remember, it serves RW interests for Obama to be perceived as being no diff than Bush
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lsewpershad Donating Member (964 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
24. I Wonder
what would the American Govt do if another country {say Venezuela or Spain] snached an american off the streets and "render" him/her to their country for trial. Considering what America did to protect it's citizens in Grenada, Panama, and other places it is very doubtful it would take such action lightly. But this is America the richest most powerful country in the world and we can do anything except take good care of our poor and sick.
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Then technically speaking, if he Karzai gov approved this, it would be legal
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 01:36 PM by guruoo
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BunkerHill24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
39. indeed america is the most powerful nation in the world....
yet we are tangled up in endless guerrilla war in Afghanistan!


Remind me again, how many NATO occupiers are cooped up in Afghanistan?
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
27. The weird part of the story was the stripping nude and bizarre threats. nt
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 12:10 PM by ZombieHorde
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. That part needs corroboration, IMO.
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 02:25 AM
Response to Original message
2. Alternate headline: 'Obama gets tough on white collar crime'...
Works for me.
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MidwestTransplant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 03:01 AM
Response to Original message
4. Rendition refers from to rendering to a third country from US custody. Not sending to the US for
trial. I hope they figure to change the story by the AM.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. hooded, stripped naked for photographs and bundled onto an executive jet
CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN

YES WE CAN YES WE CAN

I want to see the first pretrial motion on this excess.

But then maybe Rodgers, Scalia and Thomas approve of this

Amazing the "PRESENT OCCUPANT" would tolerate something like this.

OLD BOSS-----NEW BOSS?


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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 03:19 AM
Response to Original message
7. This story is not hanging together somehow. A couple of crooks, stealing from taxpayers,
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 03:30 AM by No Elephants
were flown here from Afghanistan to stand trial here. So far, no problem.

However, the Lebanese man claims some mistreatment. On the other hand, the Honduran woman does not claim anything of the kind.

Was the Honduran woman treated the same and she is just not saying, or is the Lebanese man lying, or is there some kind of discrimination going on?

No idea what to make of it.

:shrug:

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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 05:05 AM
Response to Original message
9. Power corrupts, even when a Democrat is in charge.
They showed his a picture of his family and said he would never see them again unless he confessed.

Go read the article and the description of how they treated him, and the unbelievable kind way the FBI CLAIMS they treated him.

If they can do this to a foreigner over a minor white collar crime, and lie about it so blatantly, then they are just mad with power and they know that nobody will stop them.

"we take very seriously criminal fraud against the United States government." Yeah right. Can you imagine if they took KBR's crimes that seriously? Or XE/Blackwater's, or Halliberton's? Can you imagine if they grabbed an American working for one of these corporations, stripped him naked, kept him in a cold cell, threatened him that way, forced him to sign a confession he couldn't understand, etc., and then lied about it so blatantly?

No, of course not.

But if it's someone brown, and probably Muslim from the Middle East, hey, now problem. Let the abuses begin! x(

When I Obama REALLY going to close the CIA prisons, stop the renditions, and put people on trial for war crimes? :grr:
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
38. What has made you so easily convinced that it's all true?
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 01:46 PM by guruoo
:shrug:
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toopers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
17. Is the US the right venue for this trial?
The alleged crimes were committed on foreign soil. It seems that the appropriate venue would be the middle east.
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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
18. I noticed the word extraordinary is not used
Lame attempt to paint Obama's administration the same as Bush
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
19. Oh, please.
No one, including Azar, is talking about it now that the sentence has been handed down. Note:

Arrested along with Azar was Dinorah Cobos, 52, a naturalized American from Honduras. Cobos, who did not make the same claims of abuse, this week pleaded guilty to conspiracy and bribery.


Azar was only convicted of bribery. Another guy with more to lose didn't corroborate his claim of abuse.

There were warrants, judges, and official permissions here. These are the guys who were skimming money from government contracts in Afghanistan.

To even compare this to extraordinary rendition proves this is a hit piece on the administration. You're an idiot if you don't get it. Flame me now and prove it.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
20. We discussed this when it was on Amy Goodman. They are confusing it with extraordinary rendition
Extraordinary rendition was kidnapping someone without any indictment or legal process and sending them to a third country for torture or to a CIA black site for torture or perpetual detention.

What happened to these guys was routine capture of a accused criminal for whom an indictment had been handed down in federal court. He was taken to the US and in accordance with his habeas rights, was presented to a judge. He had full criminal federal process.

So yeah, this is a hit piece trying to conflate Bush's policy with Obama's policy.

Rendition is, however, different from extradition, and that's why some think it may not conform to international human rights standards. The one step missing is that in extradition, the person appears before the courts in the country from which he was taken. In other words, in extradition, an Afghan court would have determined whether the American federal court had a valid reason for bringing him to America and whether American courts generally conformed with international human rights standards.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. This shows that Afghanistan is a US colony
and that as in Latin America, the United States does not respect a nation's sovereignty, not even with Obama in the White House.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Not really. Rendition has become more widespread in countries not under our control
Also, the news articles suggest that the government of Afghanistan gave its permission, but not through a formal extradition hearing. Afghan courts are pretty chaotic to non-existent right now.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
22. There is more to the story..his co-conspirator has plead guilty along..
with US connections. I'd wait to read some court proceedings or the indictments.
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Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
23. Very misleading headline.
Sounds like a criminal ripping us off has been arrested and prosecuted.
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Would you want a US citizen treated this way (if true) for a white-collar crime?
I would not.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. US citizens are treated this way
Indictments are handed down and law enforcement takes the person into custody. Habeas is respected and full criminal procedure is followed.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
26. Render Bush
...unto Justice.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
28. Is this more of the change we voted for?
Who is really running this government? Do the American people count for anything anymore to the lords of the national security establishment?
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Meeker Morgan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
40. Lebanese man is target of first rendition under Obama
Source: Los Angeles Times

Reporting from Alexandria, Va. - A Lebanese citizen being held in a detention center here was hooded, stripped naked for photographs and bundled onto an executive jet by FBI agents in Afghanistan in April, making him the first known target of a rendition during the Obama administration.

Unlike terrorism suspects who were secretly snatched by the CIA and harshly interrogated and imprisoned overseas during the George W. Bush administration, Raymond Azar was flown to this Washington suburb for a case involving inflated invoices.

Azar, 45, pleaded guilty Tuesday to conspiracy to commit bribery, the only charge against him. He faces a maximum of five years in prison, but a sentence of 2 1/2 years or less is likely under federal guidelines.

Defense lawyers and prosecutors declined to comment on the case Friday.

Read more: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/washingtondc/la-na-rendition22-2009aug22,0,569241.story



What's the difference between rendition and extradition?
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DebbieCDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. If I read it right it sounds like he was extradited from Afghanistan
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 07:27 PM by DebbieCDC
to the US to face charges.

But the hooding and other stuff smacks of (a) bushco-era "terra-ist" crap or (b) overly zealous FBI agents????

On edit: On further reading it seems the good old RW LA Times is using that "rendition" word in its headline to purposely distort the article. It seems like an extradition that if the allegations are true, the FBI went WAY over the line.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. So he was released to the US to stand trial for the crimes he is believed to have committed in US
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 07:42 PM by stray cat
sounds like part of the justice system - can criminals be free and escape trial just because they leave the US - of course.
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tomm2thumbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. the claims seem pretty clear
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 07:52 PM by tomm2thumbs

from the article.... '(Prosecutors) said he was photographed naked and subjected to a cavity search to ensure that he did not carry hidden weapons and was fit for travel. Court records confirmed that Azar was shackled at the ankles, waist and wrists and made to wear a blindfold, hood and earphones aboard the plane.'

Seems to me that the photographing naked and wearing a blindfold and hood was beyond the bounds of any reasonable apprehension. It isn't like he wasn't being taken somewhere he wouldn't figure out in the end, and doing a search is fine, but what is with the naked photos? Sounds like abuse and probably won't be looked on very well in his case, perhaps even giving him cause for suing in American courts if you ask me. Apprehending and bringing to justice is one thing, but committing acts that do not fall in line with that goal seem entirely different.

Guess they forgot that America has a free press and would find out.
I guess we all forget that sometime when you see some of the stories that are covered.

If someone has a reasonable explanation why a prisoner needs to be photographed naked and then hooded and blindfolded enroute to an American court, I'd like to hear it.

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xxqqqzme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. The ONLY reason I think
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 08:10 PM by xxqqqzme
is to document any existing bruises, cuts, scars and/or swelling. So it cannot later be claimed it happened while in custody. It seems way over on the harsh side for bribery charges however.
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Coyote_Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #40
45. Extradition
is a legal procedure to transfer custodyu from one jurisdiciton to another.

Rendition is a snatch and grab and take the sorry bastard wherever without legal authority. Government sanctioned kidnapping.

There is a legal difference between extradition and kidnapping.
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #40
46. looks like a run of the mill extradition
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