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Pittsburg police use Sonic Cannon weapon on G20 protesters - 1st time used on our own citizens

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lagavulin Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:00 AM
Original message
Pittsburg police use Sonic Cannon weapon on G20 protesters - 1st time used on our own citizens
Source: The Guardian

"Only a few hundreds protesters took to the streets of Pittsburgh to mark the opening day of the G20 summit of world leaders, but the police were taking no chances....US security forces turned the piercing sound on their own citizens yesterday to widespread outrage. Pittsburgh officials told the New York Times that it was the first time "sound cannon" had been used publicly."

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2009/sep/25/sonic-cannon-g20-pittsburgh
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. First time and it won't be the last n/t
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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
83. Ironies abound! Who to hate? The capitalists or the anarchists?
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #83
107. Why not both? (nt)
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gtar100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #107
461. I think the "anarchist" label was used too quickly here.
But hey, labeling makes better headlines. Besides, the police got to play with their new toy to keep the bad people from raising their collective voices.
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GillesDeleuze Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #83
117. because the anarchists are using military weapons? n/t
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #117
437. Weren't the people who used the weapon in this story U.S. Security Forces?
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #83
149. Why would you hate anarchists?
Noam Chomsky describes himself as an anarchist. So does Howard Zinn. Why would you hate anarchists?

Even the stone throwers - if they are not agent provocateurs, which they often are - what real harm can they inflict, compared to the harm inflicted on practically everyone by Bush/Cheney or by the likes of Goldman Sachs, Shell and Bayer?

Do you know any anarchists personally and have they harmed you in any way? If they did harm you, was that because they were anarchists, or could anyone else do the same?

Anarchists, like gays, are the favorite scapegoats of populist right-wing propaganda and the religious fundamentalists. Please reconsider.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #149
213. True . . . like "socialists" ..... "anarchist" is still the boogie-man while capitalism . . .
makes enemies of citizens!!!
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #149
268. +1
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CLANG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #149
356. Maybe I've been wrong all these years, but...
I always thought anarchists were for anarchy. Is that what we Democrats are working for?
:wtf: :scared: :shrug:
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #356
360. Politically speaking,
Anarchy is not synonymous with chaos or disorder. It's complicated, but not what you might expect from a society without a "National/Federal" government.

btw, i do consider myself a peaceful anarchist... and i am a Democrat (at least i am registered as one).
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CLANG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #360
373. I understand the meaning of anarchy.
It's basically the "no controlling authority" theory. If there were no government - well, I wouldn't want to live in a country with no government. It would be anarchy! If every human being were rational, fair, compassionate, had empathy, then it could be very nice. But I've seen enough human nature to know that will never be.
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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #373
404. Well said. n/t
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #149
369. I consider anarchists as disrupters, and that sometimes is bad...
... Bad in the sense that 10 shop-owners with their "non-boarded up" windows who were trying to serve breakfast (Pamela's is one of them) had their windows broken.

Now, it would have been nice if whoever did the window breaking came back and fixed it, but they didn't. Instead, some volunteers here did.

If you're going to protest, don't make people suffer who are trying to survive. Other than that, I can live with and often have protested right along side of these guys (and gals).
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PatrynXX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #149
432. anarchists while I don't mind them are anti government to the extreme
which is what the Republicans are. Always there to ruin things. They were there in the Twin Cities, but some real protesters I thought were accused of being such and really weren't. Bad intel.

Suppose all we need is again some geek pump up the volume with Anarchy in the UK and everyone can smile. o_O
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #83
163. A: Those who use violence --
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 02:53 PM by defendandprotect
and this weapon is violence --

Interesting how capitalism makes citizens the enemy . . . !!!
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #83
271. Capitalists, definitely. nt
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #83
333. Fuck the extremists... on both sides.
I no more stand with the destructive ignorant anarchist on the Pittsburgh street than I do with the money-grubbing corporate banker on Wall Street. They are simply flip sides of the same rusty coin.
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CLANG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #333
357. Now that should be the liberal view. Thank you!
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 07:04 PM by CLANG
I can't believe I'm finally to 999 posts. 1000+ here I come!
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #357
367. Hey CLANG...
Welcome to the 1000 club! :hi:

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CLANG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #367
376. Oy veh!
I forgot to notice. Thanks for pointing it out! I now feel like true DU'er!
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #333
377. Is that what you would have said to the Founding Fathers of this country?
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 07:44 PM by earth mom
I don't think it's extreme to fight for what you believe in.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #377
391. Oy. So these vandals are akin to the founders?
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 08:59 PM by jefferson_dem
Teabaggers in black, huh.

Donning a black sweatsuit and bandanna, breaking windows, hurling bricks, and screaming nonsense about "capitalist pigs" and "fascism" does not a "founder" make. What exactly do they believe in anyway?

Hey...I have no problem with direct action and overturning the tables of power and tyranny. But these vandals give real "patriots" a bad name.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #377
394. Thank you.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #377
446. Yeah, if they are fucking up my place of business.
and called them silly little spoiled bitches to boot. These people are morons drowning out people who should be able to express themselves without a distraction from "anarchist" fools.
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martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #446
459. They are likely agent provacateurs for the pigs
They used them in Seattle in 99. No reason why they didn't use them this time either. So you should be blaming the pigs.
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Lagomorph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #83
415. They deserve each other...
Want to change the world? Expect some opposition.

Every time you arm the revolutionaries, feed or clothe the hungry and homeless, provide medications, dig water wells, impose peacekeeping, discover resources or just plain get seen shaking somebody's hand, you change the balance of power. Heads will roll, oppression follows.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #83
435. To whom are you referring as "anarchists?"
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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
113. No, it was the second time,actually
Silobreaker: Sonic Cannons Deployed at Issa and Davis Town Hall...Sonic Cannons Deployed at Issa and Davis Town Hall Meetings in San Diego.
www.silobreaker.com/sonic-cannons-deployed-at-issa-and-davis-town-hall-meetings-in-san-diego-5_2262598456298176512 - Cached - Similar
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #113
217. deployed but not used is not the same as being used against someone ...
nice try, though ...
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harvey007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #113
287. Ban These Torture Devices!
And put this company out of business!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Technology_Corporation
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24601 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #287
336. And yet the decision to be "tortured" is made by those who by
their actions volunteer for the "torture." But I see your point, ban these non-lethal, non-kinetic devices and instead put them down in the finest traditions of governments that subjugate its people, with an exceptionally humane, non-torturing 9mm round, preferably one that has been inscribed with a message of peace and perfumed.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #336
387. Whoa . . .
First, you have no way to know who actually caused the violence - most often it is
someone sent in -- or a group sent in -- to destroy a peaceful demonstration.

Second -- the very basis of the thinking of these weapons were to be able to subdue
an INDIVIDUAL who may represent a hazard to police -- and to do it without harming the
person who may be a suicide, or mentally ill, or simply deranged. NOT to do harm to
anyone -- rather to prevent harm.

Third -- these weapons can be lethal if they cause a heart attack -- and, right now I
doubt we know all the problems they may cause - including punctured eardrums.
Will the cities using these harmful weapons be willing to settle lawsuits for damages?
You ready to pay for all the medical care and long term assistance and lawsuits and
lawyering that may follow use of these weapons?

Nor should there be any necessity for violence by police -- not nightsticks nor torture,
nor gunshots. Deal with the people causing the disturbances -- don't decide you can
attack the entire demonstration.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #387
448. "deal with"
please stop fucking shit up? Pretty please, we really dont want to have to replace our windows so you can play anarchist..

40mm cs round, picking up where please leaves off. Violence is what happens when you act violently.

they know what they are doing and know the responses.
http://www.anarchy.net/
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appleannie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
2. Actually it was a couple thousand and they were breaking windows,
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 11:15 AM by appleannie1
overturning garbage cans and dumpsters and damaging property. Pamela's Diner on Forbes Avenue in Oakland sustained broken windows
Quizno's Subs on Craig Street in Oakland sustained broken windows
Irish Design Center on Craig Street sustained broken windows
PNC Bank on Craig Street in Oakland sustained broken windows
BNY Mellon on Craig Street sustained broken windows
Citizens Bank on Craig Street in Oakland sustained broken windows
Panera Bread on Forbes Avenue in Oakland sustained broken windows
McDonalds on Forbes Avenue in Oakland sustained broken windows
Brueggars Bagels on Forbes Avenue in Oakland sustained broken windows
Subway on Forbes Avenue in Oakland sustained broken windows
Rite Aid on Forbes Avenue in Oakland sustained broken windows
FedEx on Forbes Avenue in Oakland sustained broken windows
H&R Block on Atwood in Oakland sustained broken windows


If they wanted to be believed or get a message across, they should not have acted like hooligans and protested in a peaceful manner.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Are you on the ground there? nt
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appleannie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. My hometown, yes. And I don't appreciate a bunch of thugs trying to destroy it.
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ORDagnabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. yeah the G20 are a bunch of thugs...too bad they police didnt attack the right thugs...
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
150. Thugs come in all sizes and flavors
The G20 are thugs, so are the window smashers.

Much easier to arrest window smashers than heads of state, though...
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #150
363. The G20 thugs are Major League World Class Top Drawer Thugs
The foolish anarchists on the streets are not even remotely in the same league. But we worship our elite major league thugs, and afford them all sorts of proper supplication, and use our tax dollars to make sure that their thug conventions are not disturbed by the few unkempt rabble who manage to even try to disrupt their goings on.

Yes it is so equivalent and we are such fucking idiots and how I so miss the days of my youth when we would have had 50 or 100,000 people in the streets of pittsburg and the real thugs would be scurrying in fear from one venue to the next under a barrage of eggs and shit. We would not have phoned it in video-afflicted cell phones or pretended we cared on message boards.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
22. So no one was threatened, attacked or injured from this? It was just some windows?
Also, you don't really believe anyone was trying to "destroy" your town, do you? That's hyperbole?
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. what difference does it make?
just some windows? would you be okay with it if someone came by your house and started throwing bricks through your windows to protest something that you aren't even connected to in any way? get real, quit defending these violent creeps. not all protests are equal, and such that, not all protesters here in pittsburgh are good conscientious people.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. So violence and vandalism are morally equivalent?
And the only response to vandalism is...violence?
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #30
43. there is no moral equivalency.
it's common sense, don't break stuff and people won't want to harm you. it's obvious self-preservation, a child knows that, why don't you?
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #43
56. Ah, our good old friend the ad hominem.
Don't they teach you how to discuss a topic or formulate an argument without employing bullshit fallacies in the Pitt PoliSci department? Or do they only teach you to call your opponent a child and stomp about in an emotionally-overwrought huff? If so, I'd say you have a bright future in politics...on the other side of the aisle.

If you think that the concept of "self-preservation" works precisely the same when someone's breaking a storefront window as it does when someone's beating a child, then we have nothing to discuss.

But be sure to get in a few more personal attacks before you go, Tough Guy! :hi:
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #56
313. the fact of the matter is that there is no moral equivalency
people aren't justified in destroying someone elses' properties. as far as fallacies go, i've seen plenty of tinfoil slippery slope stuff going on around here, so we can leave it at that.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #313
330. So now I'm responsible for what other DUers post?
Wow, you've gone off the rails, friend.

Off. The. Rails. :dunce:
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martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #313
462. So property rights are paramount over human rights?
Are you sure you're on the right side? Did you cheer when the pigs beat up innocent bystanders?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #43
216. And capitalists "don't break stuff" . . . ???
Perhaps it's just a bit more hidden from your reality?
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:45 PM
Original message
The capitalisits are breaking the very world we depend on for our survival.
I'd say that's pretty major vandalism.
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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
327. So the answer is to break the windows of a Quiznos in Pittsburgh?
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 05:33 PM by Richardo
Thugs are thugs. They're not freedom fighters or anything noble. They're not even anarchists, they're vandals. There's no excuse for that behavior.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #327
397. That seems to be the answer for PROVOCATEURS . . . . planted among peaceful
demonstrators . . .

You have to understand that does happen --!!!
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #397
430. No, he doesn't. because that falls outside of his false paradigm and therefore doesn't exist.
Edited on Sat Sep-26-09 02:37 AM by TheWatcher
To satisfy him we would need to find an answer that falls within the parameters of everyone being being weak, soft, and unquestioning of authority directly.

Not likely to be a winning solution if we follow his formula, so we'd all just have to fall back in our easy chairs, continue watching American Idol, and pretending nothing exists.

Which is really the course of action he would prefer anyway.

We really should just continue to wallow in this fake political system, vote, go to sleep, pretend everything is OK, and continue to be owned, ruled, and played against one another.

Real Change? That stuff's hard.

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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #430
450. Oooo you used the word 'paradigm' now I'm all intimidated...
Edited on Sat Sep-26-09 12:39 PM by Richardo
Here's another: 'false dichotomy', which seems to be all the rage on DU.

"He thinks random vandalism against local small business owners (who have nothing to do with the G20) is abhorrent, therefore he's an ignorant Idol-watching sheep who loves being controlled by the man." I guess you get an 'A' from Professor Chomsky for that leap of logic.

My sole point is: If you're destroying property that does not belong to you, you're an asshole. I don't care WHAT your political agenda is. And neither does anyone else - because you go around destroying property that does not belong to you.

And the people that care the LEAST about your high-flown agenda are those against whom it's targeted - the big bad corporations watching the impotent, inarticulate tantrums of emotional three-year-olds who can only destroy other people's property to get a point across.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #450
451. WOW, I'm kind of taken aback you could even GRASP such a big concept. Good on You!
Edited on Sat Sep-26-09 03:01 PM by TheWatcher
::Golf Clap::

But let me fix your little attempt at reason there.

Those committing the violence are VERY LIKELY provocateurs, not tantrums of emotional three-year olds, the fantasy you are living in. So YES, The PROVOCATEURS who did this ARE ASSHOLES, and are solely there to undermine and hijack peaceful protests, and further facilitate the excuse for Police State measures that we are seeing take place in Pittsburgh, or virtually ANY city in the country lawful and peaceful, and CONSTITUTIONALLY afforded Public Assembly takes place. It's a lot of heady stuff you don't get or believe in, so you probably just need to stick to your "Those nasty protesters always mucking things up for us hard working, go-along, get along sheep." routine.

Look, you value being a sheep, Richardo, I can see that. You value your ignorance (willful or otherwise) of how things work, what's really going on in this country, and the Matrix you live in so you can function normally is your breath of life. I'm not trying to deny you that. It's your right, and even if I disagree with you, I have no right to take it from you. Weak, soft, and unquestioning works for you. It's what makes you....well YOU. I get it.

Just don't expect the rest of us to shop at the same store you do.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
396. Yep --
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harvey007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #43
282. Yeah, right


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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #282
398. That was Nixon's solution to finally breaking up anti-war demonstrations ...!!!
Wow . .. the right wing is disgusting . . .!!!
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #43
309. As Martin Luther King could've told you, you can avoid breaking stuff
and they'll STILL want to harm you.
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #309
310. but that's not what this is about.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #310
320. I'm just pointing out that it's not as simple as saying
They won't hurt you if you don't damage anything. They hurt a lot of people who did nothing to deserve it in Chicago and Prague'68, in Seattle '98, in a lot of other places. So don't be so smug.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #43
343. "don't break stuff and people won't want to harm you"
If only this was true, but obviously this statement contains absolutely no truth.
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martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #43
460. You think people should just let the G20 abuse people at will?
Edited on Sun Sep-27-09 06:31 PM by martymar64
The pigs were there to crush any and all dissent, no matter how peaceful. That's why they use agent provacateurs to bust window, thus giving the pigs a pretext for busting innocent heads.

FUCK THE POLICE!
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mrbarber Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #30
178. You think people throwing bricks isn't violent?
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #178
185. Do I? Did I say that? Do you know what a straw man is? (nt)
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #178
283. Absolutely throwing bricks, in itself, is not violent.
I could sit out in a field by myself and throw bricks for a week, and not have committed any act remotely resembling something violent.

I could even put windows out in that field -- so it is just me and the windows -- and throw bricks at the windows for a week, and not have committed any act remotely resembling something violent.

So, again, simply throwing bricks is not a violent act.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #283
331. But if they land on the ground, it's violence!
Please, won't anyone think of the violence inherent in gravity?!?

:rofl:
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
323. Yep, window smashing assholes get CS
if the loud noise thing is healthier than CS, use it. Else CS - pepper spray.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #323
452. You got aroused when you read that story, didn't you?
COME ON.....Admit it, you.

I bet someone needed a cigarette after that.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #452
454. no thats ignorant...(nt)
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #454
455. Not really. It's just legitimate observation. You really seem to get off on stuff like this.
Edited on Sun Sep-27-09 01:48 PM by TheWatcher
Just like you get off on the idea of bombing countries like NK and Iran into parking lots.

And I'm guessing after the news of the missile test-firing this morning, you won't need Viagra for at least a month.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #455
456. yeah thats just ignorant..
and you are a lying fuck saying i am advocating any first action towards our friends in north korea or iran.
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martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #452
463. He loves to see his high-tech death machines in action, even against us
He's proven it again and again.
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
84. And you think it was the protestors breaking windows?
I mean hey, okay, there's a good chance it was. But I'm sure you're aware of how much the cops love to give themselves reasons to use force on a crowd.
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zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #84
111. I thnk it is about planting fear... sending a message.
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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #111
137. BINGO!!
This cannon was used in San Diego a week or so ago at a Town Hall meeting...do you happen to know WHY Pittsburgh was selected, by any chance?
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zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #137
167. high profile factor of event? I am suprised we did not demo robocop.
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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #167
180. You mean Schwarznegger?
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zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #180
189. I mean "Peter Weller"
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #189
443. What a place for fire ants. Encased in body armor.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #111
214. When capitalism steals this big, their next step is to arm themsleves . . .
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #111
219. Yes . . .
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #84
170. What is this based on??? Stereotypes?
One of my good friends is a cop and I have met and hung out with plenty of them. None of them fit the stereotype you use to try and lump people into.
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #170
195. Oh yeah - they are ALL such paragons of virtue. NO cop EVER does anything wrong, or illegal.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #195
399. It's impossible to keep up with it all . .. last week, wasn't it police brutality in Minnesota?
Beating a woman whose home was being foreclosed?
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
151. The point is that you and others make it sound as if people are being injured,
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 02:03 PM by The Stranger
towns are being destroyed, and violence is being perpetrated against individuals intentionally.

None of that is the case.

The impact of a few windows (or even my windows) really pales in comparison to the billions of individuals (and, indeed, the Earth) impacted by a few extraordinarily powerful and insulated other individuals close by.

So get some perspective.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #151
196. Gee if it broke glass...I wonder what it did to the far more
delicate eardrum. I hope anyone who experiences any loss of hearing sues the pants off the, very reckless, constabulary. But then we can't have anybody protesting these powerful folks meeting to plan our fates to their own ends.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #196
220. So it was the cannon which broken glass windows? Store windows?
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #220
245. The sound cannon didn't break the windows.
The protesters did, with hammers and bricks.

It's not a point of contention. There were many eyewitnesses, including terrified store employees who saw everything.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #245
401. OKay . . . and who were the people with the hammers? And how do you know?
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #196
229. The sounds didn't break the glass,
the spoiled white children did.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #229
402. "Spoiled white children" . . . what the hell does that mean...???
Let's see, are you still obsessed with hippies, long hair, sandals?

Some of those "spoiled white children" were killed at Kent State, remember --

and in Vietnam .. .
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #402
425. Not at all.
I simply remain unimpressed by suburban white kids playing at radicalism before daddy helps them get a good job. Keep an eye on the Block Bloc types -- a black face is as rare as hen's teeth.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
339. I wonder how you'd feel
if it were your business, your window.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #339
403. I'd want to know who actually did it . . ..!!!
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
61. Another Pittsburgher here.
And I don't appreciate the protesters vandalizing my city either.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #61
112. Pittsburgh has worked very hard to clean up their city
and has done a damn fine job of it. Most of those businesses are small ones and shouldn't have to bear the brunt of protestors.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #61
223. But was it the protesters . . . can you be sure?
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #223
307. UGH!
go put your tinfoil hat back on.
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #307
311. so how do you know it was not agent provocateurs?
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #311
314. scrawny anarchists are hardly provocteurs.
i was there. maybe i don't know 100%, nobody can entirely, but i'm overwhelmingly confident they were genuinely not provocateurs.
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #314
321. So...the police are too stupid to pick people that look like the rest?
It is only your opinion that they are not agents. You do not know.
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Lagomorph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #311
420. Because the anachist websites are posting the pictures and trying to take credit?
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 11:26 PM by Lagomorph
Just asking.

It isn't like anybody took their masks off before breaking windows. It certainly follows the WTO Seattle model.
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #420
457. I was in seattle...and those were undercover agents then I believe...
Why else would the police just stand and watch them and not even try to stop them?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #307
393. I'd have to have a "tin foil" hat on to believe what you evidently believe . .. !!!!
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 09:02 PM by defendandprotect
Naive, at all ?


:eyes:
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #61
284. Another Earthling here.
And I don't appreciate the G20 leaders vandalzing my planet and its denizens either.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #284
395. Corporate pollution of air, water, soil, rivers, oceans . .. .global warming, ozone hole ...
corruption of medical care --

corruption of government -- elected officials, etal --

monopoly controls --
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
67. Yinzer here. I support the protestors.
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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #67
87. Imagine what we would be saying if Bush was president? Everyone would support the rioters.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #87
91. It's like this. When the G-20 and the economic bigwigs get together in my town...
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 12:47 PM by JVS
I know damned well who has the ability to destroy my town, and who has the history of destroying my town. And it isn't the people breaking some windows.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:13 PM
Original message
How DARE you look at the big, historical picture!
:patriot:
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #87
110. oh man of conscience, tell us all how to think
give a rest already
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Kievan Rus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #67
156. As do I
Most of them were peaceful, but still harassed by the evil pigs.
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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
131. Where's the MSM?
WHY is this story linked from a UK website instead of the US media?

WHY do I have to go to the BBC,Guardian or der Spiegel to find out what is going on in my OWN country??
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
158. Don't appreciate a bunch of thugs destroying your town?
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 02:10 PM by moodforaday
Then I suggest you start working on the root of the problem: abolish corprate personhood and don't let Goldman Sachs run the government and rig the market. Make sure no investment banks can collude to rip working people of their hard-earned pension. Get health care for everyone. Stop spending most of the budget on wars of aggression. Make sure the police understand their jobs is to protect people, not intimidate them. And so on.

Oh, and make sure that inciting riots through provocation means automatic 20 years in the slammer for the police chief and everyone involved. Otherwise you can and will be controlled through obedience and fear.

By attacking anarchists you're only working on the surface symptoms of the problem.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #158
201. +1
:thumbsup:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #158
224. BRAVO -- !!!
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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #158
274. YEE-HAH
AMEN,BROTHER!!

Tell it and say it plain.....this was political theater to send a message down the line....
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #158
286. +1
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #158
326. nope, window smashing assholes
are like floor pissing dogs. give them a warning then swat them with the news paper. Loud noise, fire hoses, cs gas, all reasonable.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #326
405. "All reasonable" . . .
if you're a fascist . . .

Meanwhile, let's try to find out who really did all of this --
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #405
445. It was Jesus, the tooth fairy, and the cia discrediting those who have not credit
in the first place, it was a bunch of stupid fucking guys dressed up and determined to break shit. Lets figure out some common sense, if you are running around like an ass breaking shit you are going to get arrested, maced, tear gassed, or generally have a bad day.

There is no right to play anarchist. They generally do not do this places police use things like baton rounds and rubber bullets. (those are not rubber just metal coated with pvc)
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
166. So I guess when it comes right down to it you are against us? You favor CorpAmerica. nt
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
252. So how many jobs and lives have been destroyed in your hometown by the banksters, ....
corporate crooks and health insurance profiteers?
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harvey007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
272. At least anarchists have the guts to stand up to tyrants
Democrats should be out there marching in the streets to protest the evil LRAD torture devices -- which US companies are selling to China and other oppressive regimes to keep their people down.

Wired magazine has several articles on these devices.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/09/sonic-warfare-erupts-in-pittsburgh-honduras/
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dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #272
276. Fucking Lulu's and their tyrannical noodles!
And those Irish cable knit sweaters and tin whistle's at the Design Center re totally in cahoots with Pamela's pancakes to take over our mortgages, I just know it!
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
297. Let them prove it with videos, that it wasn't led by provocateurs.
Usually it is, in my opinion. A grand tradition in the US dating back to Kermit Roosevelt in Iran. "Thugs breaking windows" is such a wonderful substitute for accurate representations in the media.
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
21. i was.
and guess what! they were breaking fucking windows, and it was several thousand of them. you have an opinion? that's fine, don't break people's property, and don't act like a fucking asshole.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
64. most of the window breaking
is probably done by people paid to do so by people that support the G 20. Strangely when there are protests against the G 8 or G 20 here in France there are not riots. Rioters riot when something happens in their neighborhoods over here and the anarchists and others that protest for political reasons do not destroy the windowns of little shops.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #64
227. Well said.... and remember when everyone turned against the airport controllers?????
Have they woken up yet?
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #227
247. I was young back then
Isn't that when Reagan broke the unions by threatening to hire foreign air traffic controllers???
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #247
385. Strike was about some safety issues that effected the public, as I recall . . .
and Reagan FIRED THEM ALL --

Truth be told, Repugs aren't really very good for business, either --

Obviously, those who back them are beyond elites --

Those who represent MONOPOLISTS -- PTB, IMO....
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dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #64
264. Nope, it was the kids doing it here
http://kdka.com/video/?id=63031@kdka.dayport.com

They hit several mom and pop shops here as the day progressed.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #264
407. The question remains: "WHO" . . . ??? Tape gives no indication of anything except ONE
individual broke out of the crowd with a hammer and proceeded to break bank windows.

Some had masks on --

This sounds like the group described elsewhere who came through close to peaceful

protesters.

There's a long history of this kind of violence being set off in peaceful demonstrations

by police --- they've been caught at it many times.

Give this time, until you at least hear from those who were in the demonstration as to what

happened and WHO did it --
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. Every single one of them was doing this?
Or just a few people in the crowd, yet they sound-blasted the entire crowd?

Do you have any idea what the term "collective punishment" means? :shrug:

http://tinyurl.com/y9g5dlv
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. it was an anarchist riot.
so yes, i'm going to go ahead and say that they most of them were doing it. there have been dozens of peaceful protests so far where nothing was damaged and surprise! there were no confrontations with police. this was an unauthorized protest that was destructive, so the police took the necessary measures to disperse the crowd after giving them many fair warnings.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. "necessary measures"
Ah, that tells me all I need to know.
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. what would you rather them do?
just let the protesters continue to damage businesses? i was there, they were warned MANY times to disperse.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #32
39. Do what cops have been paid to do. Tackle and arrest those who are breaking windows.
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 11:57 AM by leveymg
That's why we bought them $3,000 kevlar football uniforms.

Penalty! Unnecessary roughing. 15 yards!
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. i agree,
but from what i could tell the police were outnumbered in this situation. i got out of there before things got really out of hand though, so i could be wrong on the numbers.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. There are something like 5,000 cops and 5,000 troops in town. More than enough.
As usual, technology being used as a force multiplier. Overwhelming force. Overkill. SOP.
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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #53
105. Domestic Shock and Awe
And you wondered what all those "defiances" of that quaint Geneva Convention were really for?
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #105
128. Welcome to DU! Defiances and decibels are for chickenhawks.
Real men used their leg and arm muscles. Maybe, with all that protective equipment they can't run?
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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #128
174. Thank you ,But.....
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 02:17 PM by Selena Harris
Could you please check out #113? This isn't the first time. It was used at a Darrel Issa Townhall Health meeting in San Diego VERY recently...
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #32
71. Google: "false dichotomy" (nt)
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #23
58. It doesn't sound as rough as an Oakland Superbowl celebration
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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #58
116. University of Pittsburgh
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 01:39 PM by Selena Harris
Actually, that IS located in a section called Oakland!
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #116
204. Yes. This was the neighborhood in Pittsburgh that has had rioting after superbowl...
XL and XLIII. Of course, the superbowl rioters like fire, not breaking windows.
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #23
141. Ever been to an anarchist "riot"?
I have. No destruction of property. I don't think we had a permit (I wasn't involved in organizing it, I had no idea), but other than that...

There is no one-size-fits-all mold to these things.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #23
382. Do you believe in deploying non-Geneva convention approved non-lethal weapons against "unauthorized"
assemblies? Or just "unauthorized" assemblies of people you disagree with?
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #382
449. Geneva does not allow for cs or oc
in warfare. It does allow for green tipped 556 nato. Probably not the right tool for the job.

If the loud noise thingy disperses assholes and does not kill them or choke them, great.
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Syntheto Donating Member (283 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
46. :You must not have read the email...
...anyone who participated in violence was a right wing plant. I mean, come on, everyone knows that liberal, progressive thinking people are peaceful and law abiding.

Yeah, well, while the idiots on the right have their enforcers and have to accept ownership of their actions, we have to also. There are idiots on the left who have no problem with breaking windows and torching things.

It really helps the cause, especially when you read stupid posts about how it had to be right wing plants who precipitated violence.

I say find those who did it, and let's hear their life story.
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Hansel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #46
120. They are anarchists.
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 01:43 PM by Hansel
There is something other than conservatives and liberals. These people are neither. They are more likely to be Ron Paul supporters and Libertarians than progressives or liberals.

I have to agree that it is unlikely plants are the cause of this rioting. However, it is not unheard of that members of police departments do infiltrate peaceful protests and start trouble in order to spark violence. In every case it has been when someone on the left is protesting something and a conservative government or corporate USA doesn't like it.

So there is nothing stupid about having these suspicions. I just don't think that that is the case here. These guys are anarchists, probably Libertarians and likely worship at the altar of Ron Paul.
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #120
138. Um, no, considering that they are militantly anti-capitalist
they are in no sense politically close to Ron Paul and Libertarians.

They have much more in common with left-liberals, though they tend to be skeptical of electoral politics.
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Downtown Hound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #120
190. Anarchists are neither Libertarians or Ron Paul supporters
They are anti-capitalists and thus don't support either of those two men. Other than that, I agree with you that most of this rioting is being done by actual anarchists and not provocateurs. The people who can't accept that there are anarchists that support this kind of thing have never met any actual anarchists or been to any anarchist marches.

As for me, when I weigh out all the destruction caused by the G8 compared to the destruction caused by anarchists, I think I think I'll side with the anarchists. Even though I don't really like the way they go about it, I do appreciate the fact that there are people out there willing to fight back and fight back hard.
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bejamin wood Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #190
221. 0_o
Anarchism is a political philosophy encompassing theories and attitudes which consider the state, as compulsory government, to be unnecessary, harmful, and/or undesirable, and favors the absence of the state (anarchy)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism


I don't associate myself with any of the knuckle draggers that hurl stones.
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Doremus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #221
442. Why, that's the GOP mission statement!!
"Anarchism is a political philosophy encompassing theories and attitudes which consider the state, as compulsory government, to be unnecessary, harmful, and/or undesirable, and favors the absence of the state (anarchy)"
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #190
366. Well said. I agree completely.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
57. A shame they didn't burn the fucking rite aid down.
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 12:11 PM by JVS
I hate those chiseling bastards exploiting that neighborhood's lack of a grocery store.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #57
63. Why don't you open a grocery store there?
:shrug:
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #63
70. Because I don't own any of the fucking land. The University of Pittsburgh and the slum lords do.
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 12:18 PM by JVS
Giant Eagle sold to Pitt about 12 years ago.

So why don't you go open the store? Maybe you can get the shit lined up.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. I'm not in the area...
Most stores do not own land. They lease it.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. I'm not in the area either. Moved away
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 12:22 PM by JVS
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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #70
186. Wiki on University of Pittsburgh
Interesting entry.

Anybody know aHOW this site was selected for the G20)?
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #57
74. The anarchists here target grocery stores too.
So I imagine that had there been a Giant Eagle down on Forbes Avenue it would also have its windows smashed in this morning.

As would a local mom-and-pop grocery, because they didn't seem to be too careful about targeting all those so-called "greedy corporations".
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. Mom and pop usually suck too. I'm surprised that they didn't go after the...
state store next to the rite aid. They must know that doing so would cause big trouble.
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dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #57
134. There now IS a grocery store
IGA opened one right on Forbes where the upstage used to be.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #134
152. Ahh. Cool!
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
62. Was The Original unscathed?
I worked the hot dog counter there many years ago. I'd hope even these jerks wouldn't be stupid enough to trash that place.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #62
72. The Original is by its very nature always scathed.
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dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #72
122. Bwahahahaha
The anarchists could have been easily subdued by the O's bathroom fumes. If they go back tonight, there's guaranteed to be at least an inch of some sort of liquid on the floor. And everyone knows that Sid will never close that place, rioters be damned, he barely closes when there's a shooting, and that's only for as long as it takes to get the police cleared away from the door.
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
66. It's easy for a few - who can often be undercover cops - to turn the whole thing ugly
doesn't mean all should take the blame. It is soooo easy for an undercover cop to just get in the crowd and start the ball rolling then "mob mentality" takes over - sometimes they'll have a few undercovers get it all started. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but it is a well known police tactic which gives them an excuse to disperse the crowd.
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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #66
85. There you go! It's actually The Man posing as rioters! That's the ticket!
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #85
93. You do know a couple years ago Canada protestors caught a group of "rioters" within their midst ...

... that turned out to be police trying to incite potential rioters into acting. How were they trying to incite them? By throwing rocks!
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #85
115. Hey - thanks for the sarcastic reply! It was really helpful!
You know, as the other person who replied to you informed you, this actually does happen. Now don't you just feel all superior and shit trying to mock me? :sarcasm: Whatever.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #85
165. you don't know much history.
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bluescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #66
95. Agents provocaterus
The PTB have always employed agents provocateurs when they felt threatened by citize uprisings. Why not? It works to turn public sentiment against those who have legitimate grievances.
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #95
121. Exactly
Somebody actually mocked me when I suggested such a thing. I guess I should have provided dates and shit otherwise people seem to just jump all over each other these days mocking them as conspiracy theorists and what not, even though most of us know this is a tried and true tactic those in power use.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #66
234. And it seems that they had recently had PEACEFUL demonstrations . . .
maybe that started to become a problem for corporatism?

So, what might have changed this one ???

And, was it an opportunity to play with a new toy ???
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arikara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
94. Provocateurs.
They do it all the time, sometimes they get caught.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCRsj06wT64&feature=PlayList&p=0674E0DD448B8FA9
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GillesDeleuze Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
118. im sorry your h+r block got destroyed after
the pigs starting beating people up



when you can control your cops, ill calm down my fellow anarchists.
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dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #118
123. The irish design center and Pamela's are big supporters
of the man :eyes:
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GillesDeleuze Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #123
154. big fucking deal
pamela's had one broken window and the owners say the dont care

but who gives a shit, you want to support cops and hate on anarchists because it took longer to get to your shitty job today.

boo hoo
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #154
183. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #183
191. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #191
207. Deleted message
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GillesDeleuze Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #207
222. aww
did somebody's toes get stepped on when police starting swinging batons and firing tear gas?

maybe next time they'll learn to keep their restaurant away from a war zone.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #222
233. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #222
249. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #249
273. Deleted message
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #273
303. How much money do your parents earn?
What was their tax bracket?

Just curious, you see.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #183
277. Such historical illiteracy!
Anarchists are a buck of bedwetters whose mommies didn't hug them enough so they have to go and throw tantrums and break other peoples things because they're mad. They victimize other people to make themselves feel better. Bullies who won't stand up to actual people because, we all know, they'd get the fuck beat out of them like the pansy ass babies they are.


Since I'm feeling charitable today, I'll just provide a list of names for you to Google:
- Goldman
- Proudhon
- Bakunin
- Kropotkin
- Chomsky

Once you've done the bare minimum research, why don't you get back to us with an evaluation of your quote above?
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dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #277
295. for this group who ran around my town last night
I stand by my definition.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #295
306. And yet you said "anarchists," not "this particular group."
Why the broad brush? :shrug:

This is the equivalent of telling us how you were mugged by a Latvian, so all Latvians everywhere, at all times throughout history, are criminals.

Is that really what you meant to say?
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dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #306
324. This group have defined themselves as anarchists
I personally don't see them as such. I see them as a bunch of over-priveleged brats acting out.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #324
328. Then say, "I hate muggers," rather than "I hate Latvians." (nt)
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #295
364. "My town." ROFL. Ain't your town. It's the Corps town. Like every other town.
Something maybe the protestors understand. The high dudgeon some are in about a few broken windows amuses me. It's not my tactic, but you know, every few minutes - maybe seconds, who can keep track, the scale is so unbeliveable we have to block it out - a child dies because of the policies of these so-called "leaders" dancing to the tune of their Corporate Masters. Babies and young chidren - dead from preventable disease, starvation, poisoned water, poisoned air, and wars caused at their root by exploitation and oppression by First World powers and their Corporations. Ever read the environmental news? We're maybe a few years away from the collapse of the ocean food chain, among other extinction-event catastrophes caused by bowing down to the god of capitalism. And breaking a few windows is "violence?" Wo/Man, get some perspective.

I believe in non-violence. I try to practice non-violence. But you know what? If humans did not have powerful denial systems, a powerful ability to block out the unthinkable, we might all be in the streets rioting.

Not to mention the simple truth that any sizable group has a few attention-getters and rowdies, who like to ratchet up the stakes for the sheer thrill of it. That's a pretty common human characteristic. To get on a soapbox about it is silly.

btw, I come from near there, originally. And while the city itself might be a pleasant and livable place now, take a ride down river, where all the Mill towns that used to be solid working-class neighborhoods have died and crumbled with the Steel Mills. Ain't so pretty, I'll tell you. Maybe some of the window-breakers come from those families, or families like them from other parts of the Country, who knows? I'd find that anger pretty understandable, but then, those were my people.
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dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #364
400. It *is* MY town. I have a 152 zip code
I still live here. I live in a working class neighborhood. I am working class. And this city and region ARE working hard and fighting back from the death of the mills slowly but surely, but you wouldn't see that, seeing as *you* AREN'T here. Preach all you want from a distance about the death of the steel mills, sounds pretty, but I live and breathe here every day. Independent local businesses are everywhere here and are doing a fair job of at least keeping their heads above water.

If they're from towns like those in other parts of the country, why don't they go fuck up people's businesses there? Or is just sour grapes (as you seem to be implying with your final 2 statements) that they're doing it here and NOT a real political statement at all?
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #154
453. +1
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mrbarber Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #118
188. And when you destroy someone's livelyhood....
by destroying their business, what than? You do realize what a broken window can mean to a business that might already be struggling, right?

Let's get this straight. VIOLENCE IS NEVER THE ANSWER. I'm shocked people are supporting it on this site like they are. Martin Luther King and Gandhi didn't use violence, because they were intelligent enough to realize that violence only begets more violence.
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GillesDeleuze Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #188
194. boo hoo!
Martin Luther King beat the shit out of his wife regularly. But hey, nonviolence is the answer.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #194
208. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
GillesDeleuze Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #208
218. completely responsive.
your debating skills are amazing
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #194
280. So you're saying we should ignore MLK's tactics of non-violent protest b/c he beat his wife? nt
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bejamin wood Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #188
231. Thank you
The high road is a longer walk, but the reward is so much greater.
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xxqqqzme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
119. I believe this post is about Pittsburgh.
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jakefrep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
126. Those anarchist shitbags better not fvck with Primanti Bros.
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GillesDeleuze Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #126
157. or what? you'll call the cops. big man on the internet alert!
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jakefrep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #157
168. Napalm the little fuckers.
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #157
304. If you has spent any time in Pittsburgh you'd understand the joke...chill
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #126
368. Are you like into latin spelling? QVIS FVCK?
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
169. It is so cute when you try to hide your bias. Go away plez nt
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
182. i think your reports are less than accurate.
http://indypgh.org/g20/#k-a0930616a1320fd2
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
192. We all know how successful those peaceful protests are. What with ending the wars and shutting
down the concentration camp in Cuba - the damn dirty hippies are just being crazy kids with no real goals who like to bust up things and get attacked by the cops because they really do not want to change the corporate dominance of Amerika.

If they really did, they would know that peaceful protests by hundreds (or dozens) of young people would do the trick.

To make an omelet, you have to break some eggs.

To get attention, you have to make some noise.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
198. Not in Pittsburgh (though we have some family ties there)
but I agree with you.

That sort of behavior just isn't acceptable, explainable or to be tolerated, period.

If they want to make what they think is an important point, then do that - and quit destroying other people's property like a bunch of ... well, hooligans as you say.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
210. ....but who actually did that damage ????
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dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #210
250. A bunch of kids with hammers and bricks
Dressed up like the frito bandido thinking they were anarchists.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #250
413. Police barricade - not letting them thru. "Hammers & Bricks" ...????
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
290. surrre
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 04:11 PM by fascisthunter
a couple thousand throwing rocks at windows.... embellish much?
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annm4peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
312. who are "they" ?
Yes, Many windows were broken but what happened 1st?

The riot cops gassing protesters, reporters, and bystanders, and using the criminal sonic devise,

or

the breaking of windows?

Many times all the cops have to do is arrest the criminals.

Instead they want to use their "toys" of pepperspray and teargas, rubber bullets.

That is excessive force. These people did not have weapons.

Shameful.


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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
410. i used to have a 'friend'
who could claim to have done that much damage, just himself and his homey in one night in Brooklyn. Only to people's cars and houses. Don't worry, he's in jail now and will be for awhile. The point i'm trying to make is that ONE PERSON is capable of having done all that. Our country has a VERY LONG history of inserting Agent provocateurs, especially in 'people's movements'. Serious Anarchists would not advocate wanton destruction.

:shrug:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #410
414. Agree . . . but a lot here are naive and will rush to judgment . . .
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 10:54 PM by defendandprotect
Someone posted a very interesting link to Goomedia --

If I find it I'll add it to this post -- lots of video --


This is from "Hannah Bell" in post #182 below . . .

lots of stuff here --

http://indypgh.org/g20/#k-a0930616a1320fd2
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
428. Got a link to back up your outlandish claim?
Because I have one to refute it. One man, that's right one single man is charged with doing "most of the damage that was done during the two-day G-20 summit in Pittsburgh."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09268/1000965-100.stm#ixzz0SB53x0B6
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
440. Link?
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ThePantaloon.com Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
3. Nice, punctured eardrums and aneurysms
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. Outrage by who?
Anarchists who couldn't go on a violent romp?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/09/pittsburgh-g20-obama.html

As far as "outrage" goes, I'll reserve mine for asshole Anarchists given what they would like to do at these "peaceful protests" against "evil capitalists" like Trader Joe's. Grab a bottle of 2-Buck-Chuck and chill.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
7. Funny? I don't remember "sound cannons" being used at the tea baggers' rallies...
...when many showed up with assault rifles and other guns.


Oh, wait...those were "real 'Muricans"™

Never mind...
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. I don't remember seeing reports...
...of riots either.

And one black guy with an AR15 and a pistol (all legal or he would have been arrested) does not qualify as "many." Actually, I have nothing against black people carrying guns. In the 20's a high priority for the KKK was to restrict minorities from owning guns so that thy could not defend themselves.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
20. Hypothetical question, ray: if G20 NON-violent protestors had shown up with weapons displayed
do you think they would have been treated like the "Tree of Liberty" nuts at the town hall meetings?
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #20
35. If nonviolent protesters..
...who have not been advertising in advance that they want to commit violent acts show up with weapons displayed, and all such individuals have the proper permits to carry such weapons, then they should be treated nonviolently.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #35
102. I hear the "SHOULD BE TREATED NONVIOLENTLY", but that doesn't answer the question.
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 01:20 PM by bertman
We both know that left-wing protesters with weapons would be in deep danger.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #11
26. You must have missed these “events”
One brave man at the Tea Bag protest in DC

This brave man walked through the anti-health care crowd with his large poster and was immediately set upon by the crowd. One person spit on him, while others pushed and tried to grab his flag until the police intervened. Most of the crowd around him turned on him like rabid dogs, yelling epithets and things like commie, why dont you leave this country etc. Impressively, he remained unflappable and had this little smile on the whole time.

You don’t call this a “riot?” What would have happened to him had it not been for the police escort? I seem to recall spitting on someone and trying to grab something off his body are acts of assault. Where was the fucking “sound cannon” to disperse this crowd?

Also:

Three men were arrested on drug charges in Aurora, Denver and Glendale — one of them carrying weapons that authorities said may have been intended for use in "credible threat" against Barack Obama.

Authorities refused to detail the reasons they were investigating a possible plot, though law enforcement sources said the men may be part of an Aryan Nation group.

Denver Post

Now, while the second one doesn’t constitute a “riot,” we do know there are loonies out there that will use violence for political change. Not the “breaking windows” kind of violence that for some reason begets the “sound cannon,” but the very real violence against person or persons, that, for some reason, doesn’t require the “sound cannon.”

Just because Fox News didn’t report it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #26
54. Hardly a riot indeed.
And it seems that the brave protestor did not suffer injury, as far as I can tell from the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q7XH8lfGMc

google "Kenneth Gladney" and see what you get. Despite these isolated acts on both sides, none of the tea parties have turned into large-scale riots with destruction of businesses, etc., which is exactly what the Anarchists stated in advance they would do.

And regarding

"Three men were arrested on drug charges in Aurora, Denver and Glendale — one of them carrying weapons that authorities said may have been intended for use in "credible threat" against Barack Obama."

I am glad that they were arrested. Proper law enforcement in action.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #54
80. "And it seems that the brave protestor did not suffer injury, as far as I can tell from the video"
He was still assaulted, yet, no one was arrested.

Or does one have to be "injured" in order for it to be considered an assault?
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
50. always defending the right wing
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. Defending rule of law...
...to some that means defending the right wing because law doesn't let you do what you want no matter how "noble" the outcome.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #50
176. Really what the fuck?
I swear I wonder what the fuck website I'm on a good number of the time.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #176
177. one by one...
I place them on ignore.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #177
301. Ignore the last bastion of the small minded.
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Doremus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #177
444. I call them out whenever I see them. And there are a good number of them here.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #50
300. This from a man who doesn't support the Constitution. LOL
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
171. let me get this straight you are siding with the teabaggers and against the G20 protesters? Nice. n...
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #171
256. I will always side with the nonviolent expression...
...of political opinion over the violent expression of political opinion no matter what the opinion.

I respect that others can have different opinions even if I think they are dead wrong. I can and will be sarcastic and biting in my comments if I think that such discourse is warranted. But I do not accept that I have the right to silence anyone, or that anyone has the right to silence me for the nonviolent expression of opinion.

When one turns to violence to express the opinion the situation changes. I oppose it. So yes, I support a teabagger's right to the peaceful expression of his/her views while opposing a G20 protestor's violent expression of his/her views.

And I believe that people who takes the opposing view - that peaceful expression of opinions can be suppressed if you disagree with them and that violent expression of opinions can be supported if you agree with them - to be nothing other than thugs who would fit in well in Fascist or Communist regimes. In fact, those regimes depend on exactly those kind of people.
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #256
262. +1
One of the best posts in this thread. Thank you. :fistbump:
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #262
291. Thanks. n/t
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #256
292. Hey that's not fair using reason. Ok ok I understand, but somehow my heart goes out to those that
fight oppression. I remember when the Hungarians revolted against the iron foot of the USSSR. Their rocks were no match for the Soviet tanks. I feel at some point you have to draw the line and fight. We wouldn't have the USofA if our forefathers hadn't fought the East India Company.
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #292
293. True enough.
In the case of the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, the Soviets had taken away the right to the nonviolent expression of opinion, leaving only one outlet.

That is what happens when you take away freedom of speech. You channel everything into violence, which is why I take the 1st amendment so seriously.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #293
338. Thanks for the friendly responses. nt
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #338
378. You are welcome. n/t
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. They weren't breaking the law with violence like the G-20 protesters.
That being said, I would have loved to see the Secret Service kick the shit out of the gun-nut teabaggers.
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #7
24. Actually they were being deployed for a few townhalls in San Diego area...
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 11:46 AM by cascadiance
as reported by DUer Miriam Raftery's East County Magazine here:

http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/?q=node/1874

SONIC WEAPONS USED IN IRAQ POSITIONED AT CONGRESSIONAL TOWNHALL MEETINGS IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY

A Joint Investigative Report by East County Magazine and Liberty One Radio

By Miriam Raftery



September 11, 2009 (San Diego) – “Long-range acoustic devices for crowd control can be extremely dangerous. These are used in Iraq to control insurgents. They can cause serious and lasting harm to humans…We want to know WHY our Sheriff Dept has this weapon,” Sal Magallanez of San Diego-based Liberty One Radio said in an e-mail sent to East County Magazine, prompting a joint investigation.

The device was stationed by San Diego County Sheriff deputies at a recent town hall forum hosted by Congresswoman Susan Davis (D-San Diego) in Spring Valley and at a subsequent town hall with Congressman Darrell Issa (R-San Diego). The Davis Rally drew an estimated 1,300-1,500 people, including vocal conservative and liberal protest groups. (photo credit: Mike Russell)

A public records search conducted by East County Magazine has confirmed that the device is an LRAD 500-x manufactured by San Diego-based American Technology Corporation (ATC). Capable of use as an effective loudspeaker, the LRAD also has the ability to emit a deafening tone aimed at incapacitating and dispersing a crowd without use of lethal force.

“It’s very concerning,” Kevin Keenan, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union, said. “ It is fine for the Sheriff’s Department to have new less-than-lethal weapons, but for their interactions with individuals these still-dangerous weapons need to be used only as substitutes for firearms. They can’t be used as just another tool on the tool belt. As we’ve seen with tasers and pepper spray, these types of weapons are being used to subdue people even though they pose the risk of serious physical harm.”

...
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #24
73. Wonder how many defense contractors like ATC are cranking these things out?
Like a float on the 4th of July Parade down Main Street. Will every police dept in the country have these things? Betya theres a huge chunk of federal law enforcement and "anti-terrorism" grant money going to feed this industry.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
106. Those guys are all DEAFENED from their own screaming -- wouldn't work on them
:shrug:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
235. Right . . . because the right wing is non-violent . . . and unarmed . . . !!!
:evilgrin:

Guess we haven't had 40-50 years of right wing political violence, either -- ????
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
8. This will spread. They'll use these things on non-violent civil disobedience protesters next.
Not a question of if, but when. Guarantee it.

This must be stopped.
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. When they do...
...I'll be with you in denouncing violence against peaceful protestors.

But even then I would support such measures against violent protestors.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
34. Tear gas and Mace were both announced as only to be used on violent rioters.
Now they're SOP for use against any sort of unruly gathering -- from out of control fraternity parties to "ecoterrorist" blockages --by every University PD and backwater Sheriff's Dept. in the country.

Mision creep. Lines get shifted, and rules of engagement change. This will be the new normal for crowd control.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
239. You have to figure out that THIS WEAPON strikes all -- the guilty and the innocent alike . . .
What you need is police enforcement with deals with the violent ONLY --
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #239
315. exactly!
Why should everyone on the block have their hearing permanently destroyed or damaged because one asshole gets out of line>?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
33. We were just asking in the LatAm forum if this wasn't used
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 11:52 AM by EFerrari
in Tegucigalpa this week. There are pictures of people trying to block the sound and one of a vehicle that looks a lot like the one in the OP. Those protesters were not violent.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #33
49. Looks like some defense contractor got the green light to market these things globally.
Now, they're operational, everywhere.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #49
241. New Toys . . . Weapons testing . . . !!!
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
9. This is nonviolence? ---> Pittsburgh businesses clean up from G-20 protests
PITTSBURGH – Businesses vandalized during Group of 20 protests were cleaning up broken glass and getting back to work Friday while demonstrators pledging nonviolence planned an afternoon march to protest environmental, health care and other policies.

snip...

Meanwhile, in the Oakland section of the city, five businesses near the University of Pittsburgh had windows smashed during an overnight protest. A diner, McDonald's, Rite Aid and Subway sandwich shop were among those vandalized.

Subway employee Teena Santos, a 21-year-old accounting student at Pitt, said it had been a slow, quiet evening when black-clad protesters suddenly swarmed the street and attacked the storefront. Santos said they must have used a hammer or another object to smash the window because no rocks or bricks were found. Workers and customers locked the door and waited with her until the crowd passed. "I was pretty scared, pretty shaken up," she said.

Michele Mazzella, co-owner of Pamela's Diner, said employees were at a loss to explain why their windows were broken. The business has several locations, including one that hosted first lady Michelle Obama on Friday for breakfast.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090925/ap_on_re_us/g20_summit_protests_38
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
90. Yes, it is non-violence. What it IS, is vandalism. One isn't "violent" towards objects.
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 12:44 PM by WinkyDink
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #90
103. So it should just be quietly tolerated, maybe encouraged?
Fuck that; anyone smashing up someone else's property for its own sake needs a bucket full of consequence.
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Crzyrussell Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #90
248. It is
violence if it scares the employees of the establishment.

If this was done to black businesses by white supremacists it would be considered violence...
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
108. "Black-clad protesters," eh?
Hmmm.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
246. slow, quiet evening when black-clad protesters suddenly swarmed the street and ...
and attacked the storefront --

Santos said they must have used a hammer or another object to smash the window because no rocks or bricks were found.

Sure sounds like this was a separate group -- police provocateurs?

False flag operation?
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appleannie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
10. At that time, protestors began throwing rocks at the police, who responded with pepper spray and
rubber bullits. Nothing at all about a sonic cannon.
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appleannie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Local news does not say a thing about a sonic cannon and they were at the scene.
66 Arrested On Day 1 Of G-20 SummitPITTSBURGH (KDKA) ― Click to enlarge1 of 1
Police detain a demonstrator during an anti-G-20 protest in Pittsburgh on Sept. 24, 2009.
Saul Loeb/AFP/Getty Images

Close




numSlides of totalImages Related StoriesWorld Leaders To Discuss Economy, Iran Today
(9/25/2009)
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(9/25/2009)
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(9/25/2009)
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(9/25/2009)
The first day of the G-20 Summit saw many protests and a couple led to arrests.

In all, 66 people were arrested with the majority stemming from an incident in Oakland around 9 p.m. near the Phipps Conservatory.

According to police, 24 others were arrested earlier in the day in various locations with the majority being in the Lawrenceville and Bloomfield area.

However, not all the protests led to arrests as 12 peaceful demonstrations were conducted without incident.

Residents of Bloomfield, Shadyside, Oakland, Lawrenceville, the Strip District and the Friendship-Garfield communities sustained minimal damage in areas where civil disorder ensued.

In addition to the arrests and protests, there were 10 calls for suspicious packages. None of the packages turned out to be serious.

Throughout the day six people were injured and taken to area hospitals, including two police officers. One of the officers was struck in the hand by a non-lethal round and was released. The other officer suffered heat exhaustion and was also released.

There is no word on the conditions of the other four people at this time.

Police also had to deploy pepper spray in the Lawrenceville and Oakland incidents.

The list of businesses that were damages on Thursday are:


PNC Bank at Liberty Avenue and Matilda Street in Bloomfield sustained a broken glass door
Fidelity Bank at Morewood and Centre Avenues in Shadyside sustained broken glass panes
P&W BMW Auto Showroom on Baum Blvd. in Bloomfield sustained a broken window pane
Boston Market Restaurant on Baum Blvd. in Shadyside sustained 10 broken window panes
KFC on Baum Blvd. in Bloomfield sustained one broken window pane
Pamela's Diner on Forbes Avenue in Oakland sustained broken windows
Quizno's Subs on Craig Street in Oakland sustained broken windows
Irish Design Center on Craig Street sustained broken windows
PNC Bank on Craig Street in Oakland sustained broken windows
BNY Mellon on Craig Street sustained broken windows
Citizens Bank on Craig Street in Oakland sustained broken windows
Fidelity Bank on Morewood and Centre in Shadyside sustained broken windows/drive-thru
Panera Bread on Forbes Avenue in Oakland sustained broken windows
McDonalds on Forbes Avenue in Oakland sustained broken windows
Brueggars Bagels on Forbes Avenue in Oakland sustained broken windows
Subway on Forbes Avenue in Oakland sustained broken windows
Rite Aid on Forbes Avenue in Oakland sustained broken windows
FedEx on Forbes Avenue in Oakland sustained broken windows
H&R Block on Atwood in Oakland sustained broken windows
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
42. i was in bloomfield and lawrenceville earlier in the day.
i can say for a fact they didn't use a sonic cannon on the protesters there, i was in oakland when the violent one occured, and i just got the hell out of there before it got out of hand. i wasn't even protesting, i was just there hanging out and all this shit erupts.
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Sinistrous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #13
45. Use of Sonic Cannon mentioned
here.

(About 10 - 12 paragraphs down.)
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
76. PHOTO of Sonic Device being used here:
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 12:24 PM by Hissyspit
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6622962&mesg_id=6622962

You could hear it being used in footage on CNN yesterday.



An anti G-20 Summit protester covers his ears from an acoustic device used by police to disperse protestors in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Police fired tear gas to disperse a group of masked anarchist protesters attempting to march on the venue of the Pittsburgh G20 summit Thursday. (AFP/Getty Images/Chris Hondros)
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Juan_de_la_Dem Donating Member (800 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #76
104. Is this guy a street mime or something?
I heard the schrill on some news audio also. Is there doubt that police used this device?
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Sigh Sister Donating Member (358 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #104
161. They definitely used it.
I was watching live local news yesterday when it happened.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #104
318. They asked the mime about it, but he had no comment. (nt)
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BREMPRO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
92. a rubber bullet killed a young college student in Boston a few years ago
the police were trying to disperse a crowd around fenway park and she was shot in the eye which lodged into here brain and killed her. There is a small group of anarchists who break windows and cause havoc that do not represent the majority of protesters- unfortunatly there actions bring on the riot police and tough tactics on the majority. There are better ways to promote your cause than hiding behind black bandanas and breaking windows. Doesn't help.
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
14. well, if post #2 is accurate by appleannie1
then what the hell were these assholes doing breaking all these store windows?

that's fucked up.

(or was it the sound cannon that broke the windows?)
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appleannie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. No, It was rocks and hammers and they were filmed doing it.
A woman stopped one of them and asked why they were destroying things. The girl replied "We don't bother mom and pop stores, just those owned by greedy corporations." So, some of them planned on breaking windows and damaging ATM's
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. The woman who stopped them was obviously not feeling threatened, right?
No one was injured or even threatened in any way -- it was just windows?

And the "destroying things" was limited to windows of corporate chain establishments?
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #19
31. Pamela's Diner isn't a greedy corporation. nt
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #31
40. I'm sure it's incorporated....
:eyes:
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appleannie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:01 PM
Original message
No, it is a privately owned mom and pop restaurant. And some of the bigger ones are privately owned
Just ordinary people trying to earn a living. They don't deserve to have their property damaged. And I would think a lot less of the police if they stood back and allowed a group of thugs to run rampant all over town. There were a lot of peaceful demonstrations yesterday and today. They probably got their point across to some because of the way they handled themselves. But this one group came looking for trouble and planned on destroying property. That is no way to be viewed as creditable.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #19
44. Well, stop and consider their stance...
We don't bother mom and pop stores, just those owned by greedy corporations

Who or what can the people turn to in time of injustice? Their government? Yet, we know the US Supreme Court can be corrupted (Bush v Gore), and we know now that the US Congress is, for the most part, bought-off whores for corporations (why is public-option healthcare so difficult to pass, yet we can blunder into Iraq for no reason other than it enriches the oligarchy, costing us $3 trillion and over a million lives, thanks to the Congress who kissed Bush's butt), so what do these folks do? Wait for the next election? Write op-eds to the US media? :rofl:

Was the Boston Tea Party an act of patriotism toward new American ideals, or just another act of vandalism?
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
68. Yeah, greedy corporations.
Like the nice local women who own Pamela's Diner. And the greedy assholes who run (locally owned) Lulu's Noodles. And the Irish Design Center.

All those greedy corporations. x(
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
18. I am VERY troubled by these weapons of war being used on our streets on
civilians. THIS IS WRONG!!!
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
37. Some DUers believe this was the ONLY possible response.
But I'm really glad to see that some of us haven't completely bought into this authoritarian bullshit.

:patriot:
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #37
317. We are absolutely positively FREE to do as
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 05:18 PM by truedelphi
They tell us.

Even so far as the FREE elections we get to have:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK7DRPyNAHA
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
52. I wonder if the Baader Meinhof Complex will repeat itself here in the coming years...
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 12:07 PM by cascadiance
And eventually protestors respond back the way they did when brutal police action was used in this fashion...





Saw this flick last night. Scary parallels to what is happening today. Still remember when I was living in Turkey back in the early 70's during that time, and the riots at METU and martial law and assassinations of Israeli diplomats then with American soldiers (including my teacher's boyfriend) getting kidnapped.

We're heading for scary times soon it appears...
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #52
96. Yep, the speakers on that sonic weapon present a big target for a rifle.
That is why I'm so apposed to this weapon.

1) It is morally wrong to use this weapon of war on civilians.
2) It creates an escalation that may cause protesters to escalate things on their side.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
114. because those DUers love Americans
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 01:41 PM by fascisthunter
especially when they get to watch the military punish certain ones.:sarcasm:

Just think about... some DUers are defending the use of the military on American soil, just to protect the interests of the super wealthy.
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #114
197. Not the interests of the super wealthy.
The interests of local business owners and working class people who live in the residential neighborhoods which were vandalized by violent protesters yesterday.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #197
200. ah... so you like the fact the military is detaining Americans on their own soil
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 02:43 PM by fascisthunter
how American of you. Pretty sick actually...

"small business?!" lol... like G20 or the military used to detain Americans protesting give a fuck about small business.
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #200
225. False dichotomy.
I can disapprove of violent individuals hurting small businesses in the city I love, support the right of non-violent protesters to demonstrate peacefully without harrassment from police, and also criticize the decisions of G-20 leaders here and abroad.

All at the same time. Shocking but true.

And do you know why that's possible? Because bad people come in all stripes (protesters, police, and politicians) and so do good people (protesters, police, and politicians).
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #225
232. and yet you have no problem with the military detaining individuals
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 03:13 PM by fascisthunter
on American soil. How "opened minded" of you. You make two assumptions here without proof...

1. the protestors were vandalizing

2. the military is used in this instance to protect property.

Well, I'm so glad our rights are getting the most consideration in this instance, because the G20 doesn't seem to care about our rights or small businesses.
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #232
259. Ok.
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 03:36 PM by distantearlywarning
1) They *were* vandalizing. I saw the video of the protesters damaging property, I have friends who were at the location when it happened and blogged about it, and there were interviews with frightened employees who were in the stores at the time who gave testimony about it. I also have a very good friend who is associated with the anarchist movement here in Pittsburgh, and he told me earlier in the week that they were very concerned about out-of-town anarchists (read: NOT agent provacateurs) coming in with the intent to incite police violence and property damage in Oakland and Downtown. In fact, I'll see him tonight, and I'm quite sure that he will tell me that they and riled-up students were responsible for the damage. And in case you haven't figured it out yet, I *live* in Pittsburgh, I am a Pitt student myself, and I live 2 miles from the protest site in a neighborhood that was also a protest target. I'm not just some random person sitting at a computer somewhere in the US making shit up to upset people on DU today.

2) It's not the military, it's the local police force, who have typically been very polite during previous non-violent protests around town in the past and during this G-20. And I don't have a problem with them using non-lethal force to protect property. I hope they do the same thing if the brick-throwers ever come to my neighborhood and start smashing in my windows. I don't think that makes me a fascist, but I guess everyone has the right to their own opinion about such things. :eyes:

3) Let me repeat again, because I don't think you heard me the first time: It is possible to simultaneously disapprove of violent protesters, support the right of non-violent protesters to demonstrate without police harrassment (as they have been able to do in Pittsburgh in the past and a number of times already during the G-20), and criticize the actions of the politicians at the G-20. Just because protesters are bad doesn't make policemen or politicans good. And if policemen or politicians are behaving badly, it doesn't let the bad protesters off the hook either. It's not a dichotomy of good vs. evil. And honestly, no offense, but I think that anyone who can't understand that has a very immature outlook about the world and needs to grow up a little.
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CLANG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #259
371. You took most of those words right out of my mouth!
And I live in Wisconsin. I'm sure that fascisthunter understands now. If he is still confused then English may not be his first language.
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
129. I find it extremely disturbing too. nt
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
244. Weapons of war?
:rofl:
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #244
332. Yep. WEAPON OF WAR. Who do you think came up with this? And for
what purpose? Do a little research before you spout off on something that may make you look the fool.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
25. It seems to me, if the people breaking windows were REALLY violent
anarchists, and a sound cannon is used against them, they would just go away and start breaking windows somewhere else.

I will never forget the pics from the Montreal protest that showed the black-masked 'protester' wearing the same government issue boots as the police who were arresting him.

It is the oldest trick in the books - send some provocateurs out as protesters to discredit the protest and make the citizens angry with the radicals.
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #25
36. from what i saw...
these people weren't government provacateurs. and to be fair to our local news, they have been giving lots of time to the peaceful protesters the past few days, and have been very much certain to mention that all of the two dozen protests have been peaceful save two now.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #36
51. As I said...
If the local news has been giving lots of time to peaceful protesters, that would be the time to throw in the provocateurs. PTB don't want to hear about peaceful protests - they don't want to hear about ANY protests unless they can be used to discredit the protest movement.

I'm not saying it is beyond all likelihood that the rioters were genuine; just saying I will always have my doubts.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #51
254. Keep saying it . . . because DU needs to hear it -- and think about it -- !!!
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #36
82. They didn't look like government plants to me either.
They looked like obnoxious young kids dressed up in black clothes trying to look tough and cool.

And the side nobody is mentioning here yet on DU is that there have been several dozen peaceful protests over the last few days which, as far as I can tell, were almost virtually ignored by the police. The Tibetan Monks marching and standing outside of the convention center come to mind. Even the Greenpeace signage protest on the West End Bridge (which was somewhat dangerous and blocked traffic, which if you're a Pittsburgher you know is practically a lynching offense here) was met peacefully by cops. The newscasters said the cops let the Greenpeace people stay there for two hours in exchange for coming along calmly at the end, and I saw video of those protesters laughing with the cops afterwards. And they said they just gave all of them except one minor misdemeanor charges. But none of those people were breaking things and vandalizing random local businesses either.

So if the Pittsburgh cops were simply interested in bashing in the heads of social deviants, why aren't all the Tibetan monks and Greenpeace sign protesters in the hospital tonight, hmmm?

I also want to say that we regularly have protest marches of various stripes here in Pittsburgh, and other mass crowd events like sports rallies. I've even participated in a few myself, and I've never personally witnessed the police here being jerks to peaceful crowds. When I marched in the anti-prop 8 gay rights protest last fall, the cops were really nice and smiled and waved to us all along our route, which I really didn't expect at all, and is something I don't think you'd see in a lot of other cities. They're always pretty patient with the Superbowl craziness too, even down in Oakland when the kids light stuff on fire and overturn cars.

So I'm guessing that if they were tear-gassing the crowd and other stuff like that, the crowd probably deserved it.

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dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #82
100. Yep, I saw the looks on their faces on the news
The Greenpeace people were completely surprised by the police response here. Nice cops? Huzza-wha?? It was kind of funny.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #36
179. How would you know?
An undercover cop would by necessity dress up like the people he's "protesting" with. Makes it easier to fool people like you into supporting the police against the protesters and makes it harder to get people to rise up as the powers that be become even more flagrant with their abuses.
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #179
209. How do you know they are infiltrators?
I saw the interviews on TV, and they looked like young kids being stupid, not like government plants. Every time they interview people who cause problems like this in Oakland, they look like young kids being stupid. Do you think infiltrators have been showing up during every sports playoff game for the last 5 years just on the off-chance they might be able to fool us later in case the G-20 ever came to town? I don't.

Also, as I've said eighteen times on DU already today, there were other protests in town over the last few days, including a HUGE march from Pitt to downtown this afternoon, and the police didn't use tear gas or other more violent crowd control methods. Pittsburgh is also a town that is typically very supportive of protests, there are many of them at other times of the year, and one rarely hears about the police here being brutal towards marchers. The last time I was at a protest rally (anti prop 8 march last fall), the cops were really nice. If the secret goal of "the man" in Pittsburgh is to enact some kind of fascist police state and incite conflict between police and citizens, why didn't they take that opportunity previously or at other marches around town recently? Why didn't all these so-called infiltrators show up to those rallies and incite problems between police and citizens? Is it really just a coincidence that once the protest moved into Oakland after dark, problems started happening, just like problems happen *EVERY* time students gather in Oakland after dark for the last X years? Bah. The simplest answer is the correct one: young kids act like idiots when they think they can get away with it and they were riled up by a small group of violent protesters who deserved to be arrested and yes, probably tear gassed too. It was dark, some of them were masked, and people became deindividuated and badly behaved. It's not a conspiracy, it's just human nature.

And the other difference is that those other protests were peaceful and didn't involve violence on the part of protesters. If you use violence as a protest tool, your message becomes about violence, and you increase the likelihood that violence will be used against you. Period.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #25
38. Yep. And someone falls for it every time. n/t
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appleannie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #25
41. There were peaceful protests all over PGH yesterday. This group planned on breaking windows.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #25
253. Americans have to wake up to this -- and we need to point it out more often . . .!!
False flag --
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
48. but don't touch a teabagging right wing extremist with a gun
at a town hall meeting. Pretty bold statement that we live in a fascist police state.
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #48
59. I was thinking the same thing! You think THIS will get the same news coverage?
I fucking doubt it. I would hope so, it should, but I doubt it. I highly doubt the corporate media wants these fascist vids from OUR OWN COUNTRY showing up in ma and pa's living room. Ugh what a contrast in how protesters on the "right" and "left" are treated. This shit is fucked up! :grr: :mad:
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #59
69. indeed... if people aren't angry, they have no soul
I'm pissed
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #69
255. There's a difference between being angry and being violent --
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PM Martin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #48
86. Telling as which side the police are on.
No suprise though.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #48
329. Was he shooting out windows?
poor comparison.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
60. Lovely.
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tclambert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
65. Couldn't they have just used Van Halen?
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #65
199. I think I'd rather take my chances with the
cannon! :)
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newtothegame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
79. Throwing rocks at people, damaging personal property and businesses, and destroying city vehicles...
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 12:26 PM by newtothegame
isn't protesting. Just like it isn't "civil disobedience" to sit in the middle of intersections during rush-hour traffic (like I've seen in Iowa City) because you've got something to say. You want to risk your own safety/freedom for your cause, fine. The rest of the world shouldn't have to stop their lives because you have something to say.

As desperate as these people are to get on TV and have kids reading about them in textbooks, it just ain't gonna happen.

ed for sp
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #79
375. If we go on as we are, there may be no textbooks and no kids to read them (n/t)
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
81. They should have arrested those committing crimes...
...not used a Star Trek weapon on the whole crowd.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
88. "h"; it ends in an "h".
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PM Martin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
89. See this poll:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6624748&mesg_id=6624748

The next time the cops ask for donations, those who disapprove of these actions should keep them in mind.
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keith the dem Donating Member (587 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
97. Question: can these sonic devices break windows?
Often, loud noises can break windows.

I have very little respect for the anarchists groups, much like the teabaggers the are anti-government and thrive on wild conspiracy theories. I also have very little respect for the Pittsburgh Police. I worked in pittsburgh on a sporting event that involved closing many streets and thus needed the police. I worked on similar events all over the country, the Pittsburgh Police were the rudest nastiest cops I ever met.
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #97
101. Good question...Anyone know?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
98. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #98
132. no, it ends in a "t"
I T .... it.. IT ends in a T... get it? it. Anyways, it's not nice to say people are stupid just cause they mis-spell pittsburg or pittsboro or whereever that place is - or in my case, just don't care how it's spelled. :evilgrin:
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GreenTea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
99. What would the idiot "tea-baggers" think of our government, would use these weapons on progressives
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 01:13 PM by GreenTea
and not on them the idiot republican "tea-baggers", "birthers" & insurance corporations patsy's...i.e., the same assholes so worried about the government infringing on their rights are left alone to protest as loudly and ignorantly as they choose....(I know, they don't "think").

But the progressives & liberal protesters are subjected to sonic cannon and weapons when they protest real and true injustice at the goings on at the G20 summit.

Of course the republican sheep are too stupid to make a distinction or parallel and Fox news certainly is NOT going to help the idiots get the irony here.

So the republican dittoheads will continue with their ignorance and uninformed stupid yelling & mis-spelled signs and never with an original thought, will it ever enter their "brain" about the duplicity.
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harvey007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #99
299. Police Won't Use This Weapon on Tea-Baggers
But they will use it on the young, powerless, and poor.
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GreenTea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #299
322. Kind of was my point.....
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
109. There are better ways to protest than breaking windows.
After all breaking a window requires an act of violence.

I know this is SOPO for G20 protests, but the message that comes across is a bunch of wild eyed Thugs in the street, while calm, raitonal, and non violent men discuss weighty matters in private. I don't think that is the message the protestors wanted to send. But it is the one we all hear.
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #109
124. It's too bad that so many people focus on the bad actions of a few rather than the overall message
of the protesters. Just like with the screaming idiots at town halls, until we can learn to look past the crazies, the rest of us will never get heard - or get dismissed as wackos per guilt by association. :shrug:
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #124
136. When violence is the method of delivering the message...
violence is the message.

Imagine a thosuend people carrying coffins through the street to protest. Imaging peole taking chains and locks and chaining themselves to the building where the meeting is held, forcing the police to use violence ot remove them.

Imagine protestors who walk in single file toward the building and force police to arrest each of them, to hit them, to carry them away.

Hell, have a thousand protestors carrying signs saying, "These people are robbing us blind" remove all their cloths and do a nude in.

Find a peaceful way to deliver the message, and you will deliver an effective message.
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GillesDeleuze Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #136
160. no fucking shit. that IS what happened.
then cops starting cracking skulls. this is the response you get.

control your cops.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #160
181. They are not my cops...
Nor am I inclined to blame them for everything.

This whole protest was poorly conceived, poolly led, and poorly managed.
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GillesDeleuze Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #181
193. but no word on the provocation or violent follow through
from your fraternal order of police.

you do seem highly supportive of your cops.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #193
212. Ad hominim attacks don't make them my police.
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 02:56 PM by Ozymanithrax
Nor do I support any police organization who would use such tactics.

So far, all I have seen and read indicate that protesters broke windows and committed acts of violence in pursuit of their goal, that being protest. Damn silly and inefficient way of getting their message out. The police reacted to protect property, which is their job.

I look forward to some evidence of illegal behavior by the police coming to light. If they broke the law, those policemen should be charged, tried, convicted, and given the maximum penalty under the law. Protesters should be required to pay for the damage they inflicted on people who had nothing to do with the protest.
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GillesDeleuze Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #212
228. the police don't break the law
they use appropriate force.

you wont see daylight on shit. just like every dnc/rnc convention.

you will accept the police line. if you question it, you will be accused of living in your moms basement or killing people (same as a broken window).
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GreenTea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #228
305. "Living in your mom's basement" - LOFL - ROFL .....So true, so true!
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 05:17 PM by GreenTea
Laughing Out fucking Loud! :rofl: (I've got to keep an eye out for your post GillesDeleuze - short, funny and to the point).

Kill you, then make you out to be a nut case and then make up shit that you were crazy and the fuckers always get away with it.

Question them, your labeled a conspiracy nut too.

Because people are so fucking gullible when the mainstream media tells them "this is what the police found".... and then these gullible sheep just believe it and fucking repeat it as truth - no other questions asked....

And the cocksuckers in power, as well as the media know this well, they keep using these bullshit tactics over & over because people accept their bullshit as truth!
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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #124
164. THAT'S THE POINT
Ever watched a magician?...It's all about distraction and diversion...look over here..so you don't see what's happening over there..
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GreenTea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #109
130. You know for sure it was the protesters? Over & over & over it's been exposed undercover police
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 02:10 PM by GreenTea
or other agenda driven agitators who purposely blend in have started the bullshit...have started the violence to justify and create the use of the police's force & weapons....to make it about the protesters and NOT about what the reason the protesters are there for, protesting what's going on INSIDE!!!!

Because the powerful know that people like yourself will automatically believe the corporate mainstream media and the police, instead of investigating for themselves the truth before making a judgment.

Come on Ozymanithrax, get real....

Watch FSTV, Democracy Now, GritTv...Bias yes, but also truthful without a profit motive agenda (unlike the corporate assholes at G20)!!
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #130
133. Excellent point
which i've tried to make multiple times in this and other threads only to be called a conspiracy nut. et tu DU? :(
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #130
135. +1. nt
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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #130
145. Like the Kentucky Census Taker
How odd the timing ...considering he was found over two weeks ago....but AP reports just hit the MSM yesterday?
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #130
147. Absolutely correct!
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #130
203. they DON'T Know it
and I find it fascinating how quickly they defend the use of the military detaining Americans on American soil...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #130
257. Right . . . and America has pulled this all over the world . . . Nixon pulled it . . .
and not unlikely that it's still being used --
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
125. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
GreenTea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #125
139. Get mad Monk-Of what's occurring INSIDE the secret controllers corporate world agenda G20 meetings!!
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 02:06 PM by GreenTea
At what's causing the protest not what the corporate media want you focused on...the protesters and police....same old story, same old tactic and it always works!!
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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #125
140. Deja vue all over again
Check out #113 upthread
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #125
260. This was not a crowd gone wild . . . this was a reported group in black coming thru . . .
Sounds like someone decided they didn't want any more peaceful protests for anyone

to begin thinking about --

These weapons when used to control a crowd damage everyone there -- not just anyone

causing a problem -- innocent and guilty alike.

Plus, anyone in the area who may be there innocently can be harmed -- children?

Netting is the same thing --

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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #260
412. So since all crowd control measures carry some measure of risk...
...no crowd control should ever be attempted.

Virtually every DUer on the ground there is in agreement that this was a bunch of young punks out to have a "smashing good time". Anarchists because anarchy = no rulez and no rulez is the greatest thing since sliced bread to a certain class of young dickhead. The sort of dickhead that thinks it's funny to throw marbles at police horses, half bricks at windows and molotov cocktails at police lines.

And I've got a news flash for you, innocents were already being harmed (if only financially). Then there is the potential for harm from flying shards of glass if one of those windows broken proved to predate laminated or safety glass. Have you seen what half to three quarter inch thick plate glass turns into when broken? I have and just looking at a six foot long razor sharp shard is enough to tighten one's sphincter.


If you are part of a crowd that has moved beyond unruly then you are either a part of the problem or just plain fucking stupid if you remain with that crowd. If you have children with you and you keep them there, then you are, at least in part, responsible for any harm that befalls them.


Sonic cannons appear to have the least potential for causing permanent and/or serious harm, furthermore it takes a fairly deliberate effort on the part of the operator to actually cause such harm, whereas the harm potential of other crowd control measures is random: what concrete post is behind your head when the water cannon hits you; how soon the water gets to you to flush the teargas/pepper spray out of your eyes; where your neighbour puts his elbow when you end up under the same piece of net; whether or not the copper(s) tackling you are carrying a grudge, or are growed up young dickheads who think it's funny to throw marbles, half bricks and moltovs (cf. Alex's droogs(?) from a Clockwork Orange); and so on through beanbags, rubber bullets, etc.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #412
423. You've filled in my response for me . . . ???
So since all crowd control measures carry some measure of risk...

...no crowd control should ever be attempted.


Believe it or not, we've survived prior to this without police dressing up as Darth Vader/Gestapo
-- in fact, did you notice the helmet-stuff on the horses?

Of course, at many of those times, police actually killed demonstrators, but even then they
tried to hide it.

Then there's Kent State -- and the truth of that still largely hidden from the public.

You may be right that it was "a bunch of young punks" -- but we don't know that yet.
Let's wait and hear what the protesters at the demonstration have to say when they can say it.

And I doubt that "a bunch of young punks" would be committed "anarchists."
That's usually a word thrown around by the corrupt, violent right when they're trying to
hide something.

Nor do I think that anyone has a "smashing good time" when tear gas cannisters and pepper spray
are being tossed at them. Or when they're being pulled into cars by guys in military camouflage
and essentially kidnapped.

You also sound like you've fingerprinted and actually ID's these "punks"/"young dickheads" . . .
and evidently you also know they are the same "sort" .... "who think it's funny to throw marbles
at police horses, half bricks at windows and molotov cocktails at police lines." Any chance you're
rushing to judgment?

And I've got a news flash for you, innocents were already being harmed (if only financially). Then there is the potential for harm from flying shards of glass if one of those windows broken proved to predate laminated or safety glass. Have you seen what half to three quarter inch thick plate glass turns into when broken? I have and just looking at a six foot long razor sharp shard is enough to tighten one's sphincter.

And, yes, that is why it would seem quite unlikely that protesters would put their ACTUAL fellow
demonstrators in such harm from breaking glass. It would be those who would be trying to do harm
to demonstrators and innocents in order to encourage rage like yours who would be doing those things.
Now . . . who might that be?

If you are part of a crowd that has moved beyond unruly then you are either a part of the problem or just plain fucking stupid if you remain with that crowd. If you have children with you and you keep them there, then you are, at least in part, responsible for any harm that befalls them.

You might also notice if you slowed down for a minute or so that in at least one description a
group in black with masks came through - not part of the crowd. Obviously, unexpected. This is
where one of the people with a hammer rose from. What you're spouting is presumption -- and
authoritarianism.


Sonic cannons appear to have the least potential for causing permanent and/or serious harm, furthermore it takes a fairly deliberate effort on the part of the operator to actually cause such harm, whereas the harm potential of other crowd control measures is random: what concrete post is behind your head when the water cannon hits you; how soon the water gets to you to flush the teargas/pepper spray out of your eyes; where your neighbour puts his elbow when you end up under the same piece of net; whether or not the copper(s) tackling you are carrying a grudge, or are growed up young dickheads who think it's funny to throw marbles, half bricks and moltovs (cf. Alex's droogs(?) from a Clockwork Orange); and so on through beanbags, rubber bullets, etc.

The point you seem to be missing is that none of this stuff should be used --
it attacks a crowd vs individuals. You need police enforcement which deals with those who are
violent -- not innocents.

My suggestion is you halt your run-away train until you find out what actually went on.

And also remember, whatever you are supporting or recommending being used on these crowds could one day be used on you or someone you care about. Now tell me that you plan to "behave" and wouldn't be doing anything that would cause police to taser you or bludgeon you with a nightstick. Right!




:evilgrin:
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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #423
429. You know what a big part of the whole fucking problem we have today is?
The dichotomous concepts of absolute individual autonomy and a perfect "nanny state" combined with the simple fact that far too many people have forgotten or never learned that actions have consequences, even the simple act of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I am perfectly aware of brutal crowd control events of the past and I deplore them as any right thinking indiviual should.

"You may be right that it was "a bunch of young punks" -- but we don't know that yet.
Let's wait and hear what the protesters at the demonstration have to say when they can say it."

Well actually as I've already stated I'm basing my response on what DUers on the ground there say they saw. And now another report that a single individual was responsible for $20k of the $50k damage done.

Which leads to another point of yours.

"And, yes, that is why it would seem quite unlikely that protesters would put their ACTUAL fellow demonstrators in such harm from breaking glass. It would be those who would be trying to do harm to demonstrators and innocents in order to encourage rage like yours who would be doing those things.
Now . . . who might that be?"

Bet? Many past anarchist leaders have shown a singular disregard for consequences/collateral damage. Young punks on a rampage are renowned for doing stupid things.

"The point you seem to be missing is that none of this stuff should be used -- it attacks a crowd vs individuals. You need police enforcement which deals with those who are violent -- not innocents."

When it can take four cops to safely deal with a single moderately sized individual who choses to actively resist, there is often not the luxury of offering such personalised police service. This is why crowd control measures were developed, and why their continued development has been in the direction of decreasing lethality and undesirable long term harm.

When the individual hides behind the crowd, should we then simply allow him to have his way unhindered? Or accept that on occasion the crowd must suffer briefly in order to bring a particularly obnoxious individual to heel?


"And also remember, whatever you are supporting or recommending being used on these crowds could one day be used on you or someone you care about. Now tell me that you plan to "behave" and wouldn't be doing anything that would cause police to taser you or bludgeon you with a nightstick. Right!"

If crowd control measures continue to be deployed (and like it or lump it they will) I'd want the one that causes no (or the least possible) lasting harm. I would also wish for them to be used as sparingly as possible.
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
127. Oh, they'd never EVER use that thing on us. Nope.
It should be banned, period.

Now that they've had the "field test", expect to see it used on a regular basis.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #127
263. Agree . . . but right now many Americans are dumb enough to support TORTURE . . .
and that movement took off from the top -- planned and moved by DOJ and WH!!!

Imagine what's happening in our prisons!

New toys ... being tested!!
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Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
142. Use of Sound Cannon Forecast: ESCALATION of methods of violence ....
As the security forces increase the power of weapons they use to put down protestors, we can expect the protestors to increase their responses to same.

I thought we learned this lesson from the Vietnam Protest days ... apparently not.

BTW there is no 'humanity' in the use of a weapon that permanently damages a person's hearing(or their eyesight, or burns their skin, etc.)

We have observed how the use of tasers instead of hand guns by law enforcement officers has led to far more frequent discharge of those weapons --and deaths are occurring as a result. We can expect the same frequency of usage of sound cannons now that they have been introduced in Pittsburgh.
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #142
319. you are correct....
And now our own government decides it can distroy our eardrums, nuke our skin, electrocute us with tazers...all for protesting. hmmmm What nation did I wake up in this morning? Sure isnt the America of my youth.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
143. I knew this would be used on us to disperse public assembly and quell the public voice.
They hate us so much.
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janet118 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
144. Protective earphones . . . ?
Well, you walk into the room
Like a camel and then you frown
You put your eyes in your pocket
And your nose on the ground
There ought to be a law
Against you comin' around
You should be made
To wear earphones

Because something is happening here
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
146. Any excuse to conduct human testing
and I'll bet if you subpoena planning documents and files you will find language that says pretty much use it if anyone in the crowd is detected breathing or blinking. Make sure the cameras are rolling - the manufacturing company has a clause in their contract requiring that we share the results of our experiment on the humans for further weapon tuning and manufacture.

disgusting. Every time a new product comes out some trigger happy yahoo WILL find an excuse to use it, starting with Hiroshima.
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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #146
155. Do what you will
Umm, what do you think those Abu Ghraib "experiments" were all about?

And that's just the ones that have been revealed.

WHY do you think Bush gave legal carte blanche to Blackwater,KBR, CACI,etc.etc.etc.....?
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janet118 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #146
187. I agree . . .
remember the "caging" and arrests during the Iraq War protest in NYC 2003. I felt like the police were practicing their crowd control techniques. It was way over the top for an entirely peaceful protest. Pigs vs. Guinea pigs.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
148. ugh...well that was a proportionate response...
they were probably looking for a reason to use it from the beginning...there needed to be a documented test case on our soil, and G20's handful of protestors were the perfect target...
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Selena Harris Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #148
159. Can you hear me now?
THIS WASN'T THE FIRST TIME

SONIC WEAPONS USED IN IRAQ POSITIONED AT CONGRESSIONAL TOWNHALL ...Sep 11, 2009 ... The device was stationed by San Diego County Sheriff deputies at a recent ... ECM: They're also called sonic cannons, capable of directing a ...
www.eastcountymagazine.org/?q=node/1874 - Cached - Similar

Silobreaker: Sonic Cannons Deployed at Issa and Davis Town Hall...Sonic Cannons Deployed at Issa and Davis Town Hall Meetings in San Diego.
www.silobreaker.com/sonic-cannons-deployed-at-issa-and-davis-town-hall-meetings-in-san-diego-5_2262598456298176512 - Cached - Similar
SONIC CANNONS DEPLOYED AGAINST TEA PARTY IN SAN DIEGO - 2CoolFishing10 posts - 5 authors - Last post: 4 days ago
SONIC CANNONS DEPLOYED AGAINST TEA PARTY IN SAN DIEGO Bungle in the Jungle.
2coolfishing.net/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=234053 - Similar
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theblasmo Donating Member (221 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
153. Remember 60 Minutes?
The military officer told them the device would not be used on American soil -- ever. And then they showed the test, which featured soldiers holding protest signs -- very similar to those used at the G20 summit -- getting zapped. They were supposed to be representing Iraqi protesters, but the implication was obvious, and the prediction even more so. Surprised it took them so long to do it.

http://sobeale.blogspot.com/2008/03/60-minutes-shills-for-pentagon.html
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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #153
279. Wasn't that referring to the ADS non-lethal microwave beam?
Still nasty stuff to use against unarmed civilians.
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theblasmo Donating Member (221 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #279
298. Yes. Sorry.
You're absolutely right. I commented and linked before reading the article all the way through. If you get a chance to see the segment, the soldiers are obviously supposed to be protesting the war. It's probably only a matter of time, but that's the pessimist in me. The optimist in me says that enough complaints about these sort of crowd control devices would get Obama to outlaw their use for this sort of thing. But his administration won't be in charge forever...
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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #298
392. I'm stunned someone gave the OK to use the sonic weapon. Just stunned.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
162. "The right of the people to free assembly" --
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #162
184. Not in a police state it ain't.
Disgusting.
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #162
211. But notice it doesn't say anything about the right to a VIOLENT free assembly
We've had lots of free assembly in Pittsburgh in the last few days that wasn't busted up by the cops. But those people didn't bust up our neighborhoods either.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #211
226. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #226
236. What's your address?
I'm thinking of having a "peaceful anarchist" protest in your neighborhood. Don't mind the hammers and bricks, they're part of the peace process.
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #236
242. LOL!
Anyway, throwing bricks through windows isn't "real" violence anyway, right? :eyes:
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #226
237. You may be interested to know that I live in Pittsburgh
And I have friends who were at that protest. I heard what happened directly from an eyewitness, and it was pretty clear on the ground who started it. And the protesters weren't peaceful.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #237
267. Unless the "protesters" were arrested and properly identified, you don't know that ....
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dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #237
270. The People's March was just completed
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 03:46 PM by dropkickpa
They had MANY large groups of people, they went all the way downtown. They started in Oakland at 5th and Craft Ave, marched down 5th ave. Iraq veterans did some things at Soldiers and Sailors, there were LOTS of people in this march, couple thousand at least, lots of supporters, police all around, the whole thing went off without a hitch. Of course, this one was peaceful and no one was trying to destroy peoples livelihoods and property. Funny thing, that.
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #270
275. Yeah, exactly.
That's what I've been trying to say all afternoon.

Still haven't gotten a response to that point from anybody.
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dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #275
294. Estimated crowd size was something around 10,000 people
Wow.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #211
266. Nor does anything say that police have the right to be violent with non-violent protesters . . .
the info here is that it was a very quiet demonstration --

until a group in black came storming thru --

hmmmm...
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
172. There's a Basiji in every police officer.
Doubt me?

See the Milgram Experiment and Stanford Prison Experiment.

And here's a hint. When police officers talk about respecting our civil liberties, they are lying.
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my future me Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
173. When does the ability to disperse any violent protestor the ability to disperse any protest?
The ADS (Active Denial System)
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgG45Lvhow0>
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #173
206. The United States of Corporate/Military Slavery
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 02:46 PM by truedelphi
Moeny bought out the political system - notice how unenthused Michale Moore was about Obama when Moore appeared on Larry King Monday Night. He said this is the best we will get until money is taken out of the election cycle proscess.

And now modern weaponry means we cannot even gather in the streets.
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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
175. It's simply inappropriate to use a weapon which does not have the
ability to discriminate between the suspect and the non-suspect.

Why not just use a flamethrower and fix them permanently?
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
202. Weapons of mass subjugation. Kr nt
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blitzburgh55 Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
205. I live in Pittsburgh
and so far a lot of the stories coming out are BS and I believe this is one of them. HuffPo called yesterday's demonstrations, 'Pandemonium' which wasn't true.

People need to quit busting up the 'Burgh' though, it's pissing me off.

From the Post Gazette Blog......

So far, a peaceful protest
http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs/bigstory/default.aspx
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
215. Here we go folks.. sonic weapons... Orwell becomes reality...
Where is Obama on the use of Advanced military weapons on our own people?
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biermeister Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
230. "trash a bank if you got real balls!" nt
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d_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #230
258. Moar Jello plz
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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
238. Free speech rights for 'American citizens'?! No way, we get
to have our hearing shattered, fascism alive and well in U.S.
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #238
243. Free speech is still alive and well in Pittsburgh, no worries.
http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs/bigstory/archive/2009/09/25/marchers-gathering-for-north-side-rally.aspx

What's not alive and well is the right to destroy property.
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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #243
281. but apparently it's OK for our government to destroy one's hearing
this is what our military has/is using in Iraq.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #281
288. yes, and the hearing of innocents
do you suppose the government will pay for their upcoming visits to the doctors?
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
240. How many were police agent provocateurs?
Wish one did not need to ask that question in this country, but this is our real history and current state.
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
251. Bust up cars and windows and you get violent response. That's why King never did it.
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 03:28 PM by mistertrickster
You lose the moral high ground, you lose people's respect, and bring violence down on your head.

How many times do protesters have to learn the same lesson?

Gandhi and King had the right idea.

Even the Palestinians got some world sympathy when the Intifadah movement was kids throwing stones. When it was rocket attacks on civilians, yeah, not so much.

ON EDIT -- Forget about whether "vandalism is violence." Forget about whether the G 20 deserve violence/vandalism . . . it doesn't WORK. It's not effective. So, it shouldn't be done.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #251
261. Have you seen some of those videos?!? The police were out for BEAR.
Some of the police were just THUGS.

No, people have the right to protest.

Arrest the trouble makers but don't punish the average marcher.
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #261
265. And they were given the right to protest
http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs/bigstory/archive/2009/09/25/marchers-gathering-for-north-side-rally.aspx

But they weren't given the right to destroy things.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #265
278. But the police were too heavy handed and innocent protesters were caught up in the mix.
:thumbsdown:
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #278
337. Yup. It happened during Civil Rights protests too. That's why King and the organizers
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 05:54 PM by mistertrickster
trained and policed everybody taking part.

Street protest is not easy. You have to know what you're doing and how to make it effective.

The Latino protests against CON race laws was a very good example of how to make it work--many people, all dressed in white, good visuals, no Mexican flags, and on-point speakers.

ON EDIT--This is in no way justifying police cracking skulls. A lot of police seem to be either scared or bullies when it comes to crowd control. It's just that when police DO crack skulls, you have to make that work for your side too.
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Old Hob Donating Member (296 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
269. Looks to be no worse than the last AC/DC concert I attended. Easily countered with ear plugs nt
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #269
285. well, maybe next time American Tax Payers will come Prepared
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
289. It's shit like this that created the Weather Underground. n/t
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
296. And innocent bystanders or those living in those areas have to suffer
the same pain as those who the weapon is intended.

Really sad when a government uses weapons like this on their own people and even sadder that they have no compassion for the innocents.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
302. Rubber bullets, batons and tear gas would have been so much better.
:sarcasm:
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
308. So now our own government can distroy your hearing if you protest?
This is fucking bullshit!
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
316. ...a love story.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
325. This was predicted here....as soon as we heard about it being used
in Iraq we knew it would be used here, too. Next up, the microwave. :grr:
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harvey007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #325
359. But wait, there's more!


http://www.cracked.com/article_16710_non-lethal-weapons-thatll-make-you-wish-you-were-dead.html

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
334. welcome to Barack Obama's "Murka".
thank GAWD the republican didn't win!!11
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Tod G Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
335. Why do the troublemakers receive all the media attention?
This creates a distorted view of the event, I'm sure. Would the major media outlets show you something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akwjAjcQnqM

An another point - why would people protesting at the G20 be defined as anarchists? Some may be, but as an example, suppose your neighborhood is run by the Mafia. Would you be considered an anarchist simply because you are opposed to that sort of corrupt rule? Would you say because you are against corrupt rule, that you are an anarchist? Simple logic would say no. Do some research and you will see that they are right about things being corrupt. As an example, Obama, Geithner, Bernanke, etc. all know what I am going to show you now, read this:

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/618-Congress-What-Bernanke-and-Hank-Arent-Telling-You.html

Recent policies have brought the benefit to the GDP of printing one more dollar down to less than 6 cents. Knowing this now, that printing more debt money will only accelerate the decline of the economy, why are they doing exactly that?

Another point - who is doing more harm, the G20 folks who are causing misery to millions of us "useless eaters", or some idiot breaking a few windows?
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #335
355. The young, the powerless, the elderly... all the people that are getting screwed....
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 07:01 PM by lib2DaBone
..you wouldn't know anything about helpless innocent people dying.. you prick...
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Tod G Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #355
422. Are you talking to me?
What the hell are you talking about? If you're going to throw baseless insults, at least explain why.
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Seldona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
340. I forget his name, but I remember a story about a general
who couldn't wait to 'test' these on American civilian protestors. That was three or four years ago I believe. Took them that long to get the public to accept torture in the form of tasers. What would you call sticking a couple alligator clips attached to a car battery on a victim and shocking them into submission? Torture. What is the difference?

They must be thrilled they finally get their new torture toys. Sick.
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
341. Let's not kid ourselves. What would our reaction be if TEABAGGERS smashed windows
and trashed cars?

You either believe in orderly non-violent protest or you don't.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #341
342. You have never heard of agent provocateurs among the police? The vast majority were non-violent. eo
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Seldona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #341
345. Arrest those responsible.
It is no way representative of the group as a whole. Even the MSM is admitting these demonstrations aren't anything like the ones in the past. In the video I saw on MSNBC, the only violence evident was perpetrated by the police. I am sure there were provocateurs there. Like I said, arrest them.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
344. Good! It's only the anarchists
they're worse than the RW. Talk about friggin' nuts. They stand for nothing. They are nihilists.

Nihilism is not an acceptable political philosophy.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #344
346. What a glaringly obnoxious statement. No, not all were anarchists. Even so, why attack them?
Shameful.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #346
350. I have nothing good to say about nihilism
or nihilistic behavior. It accomplishes nothing and hurts everyone left of center.

Can you imagine how we would be if the teabaggers acted like that?
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #350
351. Another glaring generalization. eom
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #351
390. Another thoughtless waste of DU server space of a post
I gave a reason. You support nihilism? You think it's a good thing?
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #350
362. "Nihilists! Fuck me.
I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude; at least it's an ethos." - Walter Sobchak
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #344
347. The real terrorists are the IMF and the WTO, and their G-20 enablers
Arrest at G20 Demonstrations, September 24, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8CNa_viKg0&feature=player_embedded

G20 = Gestapo!
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
348. The most effective protest is a Strike.
Nobody, and I mean nobody gets hurt. Nobody's existing property gets broken. Nobody's eardrums get blasted by a sound-pain device. No broken bones, etc.

However, what it does do is stop the flow of money for the days of the strike. Guess who that hits? Those entities who worship at the alter of money. The corps. Maybe some good corporations as well, if there is such a thing, but we already know from the 2007 science study that only a few hands hold the majority of stock everywhere. It only appears to be a diverse market with lots of different big players.

Shut off their money by going on strike. It's the most effective way to get corporations attention, because ultimately, that's all they care about.

The violence is really sad.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #348
353. Agreed. nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #348
417. We'd better hurry . . .
because 26 million are unemployed and who knows how many are now

"Permlancers"????

See Michael Moore video if you haven't already!

:)


We need new ways to demonstrate --
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crikkett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #348
438. That is not so. People have been hurt during strikes.
Two strikers died during the waterfront strike in San Francisco 75 years ago after police shot them.
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Algorem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
349. who owns it ? u.s military?
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era veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
352. Philly police has used it's 'air force' on it's own citizens
Of course their last name was Africa. I think they found a shotgun in the ruins.
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marasinghe Donating Member (754 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #352
370. thanks for remembering - had slipped my mind. (n/t)
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d_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
354. They learned a few lessons
next time, show up with

1) Gas masks

2) Hearing protection

3) Assault rifles.
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RedCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
358. Let the rich get out and fight for themselves. Then we will see who gets clobbered.
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
361. Why didn't the cops merely explain to them
that they should just respect other peoples property and stop hurting everyones feelings.

That should have worked.
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marasinghe Donating Member (754 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
365. give a pig shit ... he will roll in it.
your friendly corporations destroy economic life as your parents knew it and your elected representatives bail them out with your tax dollars; so a few angry young kids destroy those corporations' fancy windows; and the kids - and you, if you're standing in the neighborhood - get fried by goons sanctioned by your elected representatives and paid with your tax dollars, using fancy equipment developed and paid for with those same tax dollars. then you get to come on a progressive website on a friday night and read imaginary progressives post ranting fascist love songs to those same goons on a virtual sandbox - while having yourself a pretend beer made by those same corporations. if this shit doesn't make one want to be an anarchist, one has to be irredeemably stupid, insane, or both.
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #365
380. LOL, good one!
that's a pretty neat summation. I find all this outrage over a few windows hilarious, myself - and I aspire to non-violence, even if I don't always acheive it in every word and deed. Babies die every day at the distant hands of these war-mongering profiteers, but we sob and wring our hands mightily over a few broken windows.
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marasinghe Donating Member (754 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #380
406. nice to encounter a kindred spirit.
Union too; and, much like yourself, an often unsuccessful aspirant to a state of non-violence.

however, i've read tales of the Shao-Lin Monks of ancient China;
and of Jesus in the temple with the money-lenders;
we both can appreciate the line one sometimes needs to walk, for the good of the Union.

what I'm happy to see is: there's always those few kids around, who take up the flag from their fathers' hands and march for justice;
even if, sometimes, the banner has to fly on the end of a spear and not an olive branch.

what makes me sad is: however much we keep evolving, an apparent majority of our species appears to be permanently stuck in the dark ages of our prehistoric ancestry.

c'est la vie

:toast:
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
372. IBTTEDI
In before the thread entirely destroys itself!

You kids play nice, now...... :popcorn:
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BillDU Donating Member (231 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
374. What?
Whaaat?
Whaaaaaaat?
Can't hear you.
Whaaaat?
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
379. I can't believe anyone here is defending this! Do you even remember what this country was founded
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 07:51 PM by earth mom
upon?!

That the powers that be are using horrific weapons on the people should wake everyone the hell up!!!


FYI-Obama has NO business working with other countries about what is best for the U.S.!

It is a violation of the Constitution and U.S. Sovereignty plan and simple!!!


Wake up people before the United States disappears and is part of The New World Order Bush Sr. spoke about!!!!
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
381. Yeah, this is what I was afraid of. I almost went there.
Every time I went to a Post Seattle demo I nearly got swept up in the Dragnet. And of course at least half of DUers support cracking down on anti-globalization activists. With those kind of numbers, fuck it. The American mind is closed. Dems are fighting now to prevent Republicans from removing a provision from the health care bill REQUIRING "every American" on penalty of fine to "carry" health insurance as an individual mandate. That, after all the lies and sophistry on this and other forums about how progressive people claim to be. Fuck that noise.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
383. National Lawyers Guild: Guild Members Witness "Unwarranted Use of Force in Pittsburgh"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6631454&mesg_id=6631454
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
384. Our storefront windows got broken by neighborhood kids. Nobody did a goddamn thing for us.
Nobody gave a shit. "You got insurance, right? Happens all the time."

How come when it's done in a protest, people call it a hate crime and demand more power be given to the creation of a paramilitary corporate state?
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bc3000 Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
386. I hope Pittsburgh and its taxpayers enjoy the lawsuits
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cleverusername Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
388. Won't effect deaf folk?
I don't know how accurate the video was but the sound wasn't too disturbing to me without my hearing aids. Ya'll need to recruit deaf folks to protest.
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OxQQme Donating Member (694 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
389. Other end of the scale
http://thetruthtime.com/towers.htm

<snip>
Electrical genius Nikola Tesla discovered or invented a great many things during his lifetime and one was the extra low frequency waves (ELF) that were the same frequency that the human brain uses to communicate. Near the end of World War II the Germans had learned how to communicate with a human brain using these very low frequency waves. They were experimenting as to what could be communicated to a human brain that would help that person with some kind of mental problem or disease. It was thought that any communication would improve their condition. Having them respond and be controlled by an outside source in a specific manner was the plan at that time. This same technique was later learned by the Russians and they also learned how to communicate with the human brain.

The French pioneered this technology in the late 70's from Bell Labs. They created a device for crowd control that looks like a big baseball stadium loudspeaker. It fits into the back of a van. Then they'd open the doors, pointing the van at the crowd. It operated on a 5 cycle bass wave, extra low frequency (ELF) wave, and made everyone drop to their knees with stomach nausea. Today' s towers are almost the same but with a bi-phase polarity frequency that can induce hallucinations, nausea, herpes outbreaks (every organism has its own cellular frequency) or whatever they want you to feel that day; loneliness, anger, sorrow, whatever.

<snip>

and i remember reading that the Hitler used this ELF for crowd control as it caused the human male to lose control of the sphincter muscles and poop his pants.




google extra low frequency
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Crabby Appleton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
408. I've been listening to the PGH police radio
they're getting ready to do 4 sound dispersals with the LRADs near CMU.
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wial Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
409. calls for countermeasures
what is it they use against the whalers in the antarctic when they use sonic cannons against the activists. Oh yeah, butyric acid.

sigh, if only I thought idiot anarchism were a better cause, I could get more riled up about this.

First they came for the idiot kid anarchists. then they came for me.
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wial Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #409
411. yikes, saw the video of people in camouflage
putting people into cars and driving off with them who knows where and now my blood isn't boiling, it's run cold, and I'm sick to my stomach. I hope this gets the airplay it deserves and there's a full enough accounting the major covert agencies of the US are completely shut down along with all paramilitary groups and the idiot 2nd amendment is repealed. Today at the movie theater I saw a guy with a tee shirt saying "the 2nd amendment was america's first homeland security". I couldn't help saying in his earshot "homeland security is what they called the SS in germany".

oh we do so badly need a watershed event that turns this country back into a democracy.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #411
416. Yes . . .
http://indypgh.org/g20/#k-a0930616a1320fd2

Presume you looked at video at that link, but just in case --

spread it around --

It's from "Hannah Bell" post --

Good to hear someone talk about the "idiot" 2nd Amendment --
how much safer we are with people with concealed weapons -- and in our
national parks!
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Lagomorph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
418. Watching the G20 thread
Edited on Fri Sep-25-09 11:11 PM by Lagomorph
http://www.anarchistnews.org/
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earcandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
419. Beasts! 

      
      
      
      
    		
  





  

    
      
    
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    lovuian
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    Fri Sep-25-09 11:39 PM

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    421. this should be stopped 
  





  

    
    
      
      
      
and outlawed

      
      
      
      
    		
  





  

    
      
    
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    1776Forever
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    Sat Sep-26-09 12:07 AM

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    424. Here is a good article on the 'sonic cannon' from 2008 - ME Marine Patrol report
  





  

    
    
      
      
      
Trying out an anti-demonstration ‘sonic cannon’ Non-lethal weapons
By JEFF INGLIS  |  July 16, 2008  

http://thephoenix.com/Boston/News/64997-Trying-out-an-anti-demonstration-%E2%80%98sonic-cannon/?rel=inf

The Maine Marine Patrol is considering purchasing a “sonic cannon” capable of broadcasting earsplitting, “disorienting” sounds, like those that have been used to break up peaceful demonstrations in public spaces in Iraq and the country of Georgia.

The device, called a “long-range acoustic device” (LRAD), is described by its manufacturer, the California-based American Technology Corporation, as having the ability to emit an “attention-getting and highly irritating tone for behavior modification.” (The company’s Web site helpfully adds that the device, which costs roughly $20,000, is two feet in diameter, and weighs 60 pounds, has been used “in combat since December 2003.”)......

But it wasn’t the LRAD’s only purpose, nor the most worrisome to those who might be more inclined to peaceful assemblies than attacks on warships. The manufacturer’s Web site touts another “feature” of the LRAD — its “warning” sound. That tone can be as loud as 151 decibels, which is enough to cause permanent hearing damage to a person as far as 1000 feet away after just a few seconds of exposure. So if a Marine Patrol officer even accidentally switched the device over to “warning” mode from its more benign “communication” mode, it could literally and permanently deafen anyone in its line of fire.

According to news reports, the warning tones from LRADs, which can be mounted on trucks as well as boats, have been used against civilians by Iraqi police and US troops in Iraq over the past few years, and were used in November 2007 by police in Tblisi, Georgia, to disperse an anti-government rally. (The New York Police Department deployed at least one LRAD near a demonstration outside the Republican National Convention in September 2004, but didn’t use the warning tone.)

(More at link)

.......

:hide: Scary stuff!

      
      
      
      
    		
  





  

    
      
    
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    Divine Discontent
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    Sat Sep-26-09 05:21 AM

	Response to Reply #424		
  





  

    434. it's anti-humane bullshit is what it is!  scary indeed.
  





  

    
    
      
      
      
yes, force needs used in violent crowds, but we've seen it ALL before - they'll overuse this if we let them all get it with little fuss, and use it too much just like the tazers!

      
      
      
      
    		
  





  

    
      
    
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    The abyss
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    Sat Sep-26-09 12:42 AM

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    426. Pay no attention to this thread!
  





  

    
    
      
      
Edited on Sat Sep-26-09 12:44 AM by The abyss

      
You are all supposed to be talking about this

http://movies.yahoo.com/feature/buzz-log-paranormal-activity.html

The major tip-top hit on Yahoo.

Don’t believe it – take a look.

Nothing to see on this discussion

You would all do better commenting about the movies and not this day's events.



      
      
      
      
    		
  





  

    
      
    
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    OneBlueSky
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    Sat Sep-26-09 02:10 AM

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    427. new toy, gotta play with it . . . 
  





  

    
    
      
      
      
I don't know anything about the LARD, but if it's directional, someone should get to work developing some kind of reflector that will bounce the sound right back to its source . . . don't know if something like that is even technically possible -- but it sure would be fun to watch if is . . . any physicists in the house? . . .

      
      
      
      
    		
  





  

    
      
    
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    PatrynXX
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    Sat Sep-26-09 02:55 AM

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    431. Called ear plugs.  Thats easier than tear gas.
  





  

    
    
      
      
      
Whale Watchers already been through this.  didn't it almost bring a chopper down??

Fairly sure some geek can come up with their own sonic boom which sounds like a car alarm.  Still better than beating the protesters bloody.

      
      
      
      
    		
  





  

    
      
    
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    boppers
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    Sat Sep-26-09 03:15 AM

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    433. Protestors create Kristallnacht, complain about being repelled by loud noise?
  





  

    
    
      
      
      
Really?

REALLY?

Then the thread descends into people complaining about the brownshirts, or complaining that the brownshirts are subverting the NSDAP, or that they're agent provocateurs?

Talk about history repeating itself.

      
      
      
      
    		
  





  

    
      
    
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    Pryderi
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    Sat Sep-26-09 06:08 AM

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    436. Is it me, or did that sound like the
  





  

    
    
      
      
      
cicadas of a few years ago.  I swear that sound was going to drive me mad.

      
      
      
      
    		
  





  

    
      
    
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    Lorien
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    Sat Sep-26-09 09:58 AM

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    439. Why not use it on the teabaggers?
  





  

    
    
      
      
      
Oh, yeah because there is one set of laws for us and another set for them. :grr:

      
      
      
      
    		
  





  

    
      
    
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    happygoluckytoyou
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    Sat Sep-26-09 10:04 AM

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    441. FINALLY.... let's quit pretending that we don't live in a govt controlled NAZI state..TRUTH AT LAST
  





  

    
    
      
      
      

      
      
      
      
    		
  





  

    
      
    
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    bobthedrummer
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    Sat Sep-26-09 11:50 AM

	Response to Original message		
  





  

    447. Directed energy systems have been used on US citizens prior to this
  





  

    
    
      
      
      
and some of us were discussing that fact years ago.

"The Pentagon's Silent Scream" (started by Dirty Hippie 3-7-04)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x405711

      
      
      
      
    		
  





  

    
      
    
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    martymar64
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    Sun Sep-27-09 06:11 PM

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    458. Fuck those Nazi pigs!
  





  

    
    
      
      
      

      
      
      
      
    		
  





  

    
      
    
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    New Dawn
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    Sun Sep-27-09 07:57 PM

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    464. Fascism on the march.
  





  

    
    
      
      
      

      
      
      
      
    		
  





  

    
      
    
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