US grants home schooling German family political asylum

Source: Guardian

A US judge has granted ­political asylum to a German family who said they had fled the country to avoid persecution for home schooling their children.

In the first reported case of its kind, Tennessee immigration judge Lawrence Burman ruled that the family of seven have a legitimate fear of prosecution for their beliefs. Germany requires parents to enrol their children in school in most cases and has levied fines against those who ­educate their children at home.

Christians Uwe Romeike, a piano teacher, and his wife, Hannelore, moved to Morristown, Tennessee, in 2008 after ­German authorities fined them thousands of euros for keeping their children out of school and sent police to escort them to classes, Romeike said. They had been holding classes in their home.

Along with thousands of torture victims, political dissidents, members of religious minorities and other persecuted groups who win political asylum every year, the Romeike family will now be free to live and work in the US.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/27/german-home-schooling-family-asylum

They actually sent the police?!

to round up family members.....no thanks.

In almost every other leading democracy in the industrialized world, proper education and social development are viewed as inalienable human rights. Homeschooling is at a very basic level a mechanism of control and subsumption of those children's rights, and thus it is viewed as an illegal activity in pretty much every other industrialized society. Children are not and should not be viewed as property for parents to do as they wish.

It seems Americans have reduced themselves to fight for their right to be ignorant and the "privilege" of paying through the nose for substandard health care. Germans decided that education and healthcare were indispensable entitlements for their citizens. German citizens can have free education from kindergarten all the way to graduate school, with a similar approach to their health care from cradle to grave.

It is very simple, the entitlement to ignorance of the parents does indeed interfere with the right to proper education of the children. Limiting the education and academic potential of a children, is at a very basic level one of the worse kinds of abuse one can perform. I am appalled so many Americans don't even seem to get that... given by the ever lowering educational and cultural standards in our country. Sigh....

:eyes:

Part of the "proper education" I referred to implies a well funded and complete education. German tax payers pay through the nose to make sure, among other things, that the education they see as a right is properly funded.

But I guess, we should be heralded as the beacon of freedom because we are too cheap to pay for the education of our youth as a whole.... right?

I guess that kind of thinking is verboten.

for starters: http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Germany/Munoz_Mission_on_Germany.pdf

(and no - I don't like nor support hslda, but that doesn't negate the link to the UN report.)

Germans learn the stuff I learned in Gr. 12 physics when they're 12-years-old. And their system is known to be among the world's best.

:thumbsup: :patriot:

Get real, dude.

I've quizzed a few Germans on the events between 1939-1945. Seems that the history books are lacking or they were all on vacation.

I'm rolling my eyes here. My parents homeschooled me for four years for *very* good reasons. They were protecting my right to have my special needs met in a safe and secure learning environment, something the public school system in my town failed to provide me time and time again. If anyone violated my rights, it was the school who repeatedly tried to put me in an environment harmful to my well-being.

This is not about kids with special needs, at all.

And BTW, having grown up in Western Europe. The level of services and support for special education kids makes anything I have seen in the USA pale in comparison. We are simply projecting our standards (or lack there of) on a country, which in manners of social services, is far far far ahead of what we even consider the bare minimum.

(from the UN report)

C. Education of children with disabilities
75. One of the major challenges facing the Federal Republic of Germany relates to the
situation of the disabled. At the request of the Special Rapporteur, the German Government
responded to a questionnaire on the situation regarding the right to education of these persons,
which constituted one of the topics of its main report for this period.

76. In the case of Germany, a campaign has been mounted for the so-called “integration” of
disabled persons in educational processes. The notion of “integration” is problematic and lacks
any clear legal definition; it should, however, include the notion of “inclusion”, underpinned by
the adoption in December 2006 of the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.
Germany aims to ratify the Convention in March 2007.

77. Integration may be understood as a process in which people are obliged to adapt to a
predetermined model. Seen in this way, it is a top-down process which gives no heed to the
special educational needs and specific characteristics of each individual, including
schoolchildren and students with disabilities. It is not the individuals who should adapt to the
educational system but the reverse. Inclusion, on the other hand, responds to the needs and
rights of individuals and renders it incumbent on the State to ensure that all children receive
education together in the same school environment. There are signs that, in Germany’s case,
insufficient progress has been made towards the inclusion of the disabled in ordinary schools
and, while it is clear that the country has excellent specialized centres for the disabled, these are
primarily designed to offer medical attention.

78. One of the main difficulties in this area springs from the fact that the education
authorities accord very limited opportunities to the parents of disabled children to choose the
best options for their sons or daughters. Added to which, it seems that parents have no
opportunity to choose the educational structure in which they would like their children to study
and thus the system, from the very outset, falls short of the needs of families and of the disabled
individuals themselves.

79. As noted by the Special Rapporteur, it is not the norm for disabled children to be
included in ordinary schools. As a result, the policy of integration promoted by the Government
could be viewed as a form of segregation which has the result of placing most disabled
schoolchildren in special schools. The actual level of inclusion in ordinary schools differs
widely from one Land to another. In Berlin, for example, it appeared that 45 per cent of
disabled children attend ordinary public schools, while in Bavaria there are between 50,000
and 60,000 disabled children, of whom only 17,000 are attending ordinary schools.

80. During his visit, the Special Rapporteur noted that most of the schools which he visited
lacked the necessary structures and amenities for the admission and accommodation of children
with motor disabilities. This should, however, be seen as an isolated observation, which does not
necessarily reflect the situation countrywide.

81. In certain Länder, the so-called “active participation principle”, which constitutes one of
the pillars of public education, seems to act as an obstacle to the inclusion in ordinary schools of
children with intellectual disabilities, demonstrating the priority given to a results-based
approach which is strongly quantitative in nature, as manifested by the tendency to focus on the
shortcomings, rather than the potential, of such children.

82. In addition, the Special Rapporteur was unable to detect any rights-based approach in the
German system which would help steer the country’s educational policies in the direction of
including children with disabilities. In the absence of such a rights-based approach, the
concerted efforts mounted by the Länder will have the end-result of further segregating such
children, instead of placing them in ordinary educational settings which would enable them to
enjoy at least the following conditions: early identification of special education needs and early
childhood intervention; the promotion of curriculum development that is common to all learners
and fosters human rights education and learning; the guarantee of mandatory pre-service and
in-service training of teachers and school administrators; the provision of individualized student
support where necessary; the linking of all areas of education reform to ensure consistency
throughout with the right to education and inclusive education.5

Although you mostly hear about the fundies, they aren't the only ones.

Google "secular homeschool"

Also try "unschooling"

Why do people on this board automatically think that someone who home schools their child is a fundie nut???? I generally like being on DU but this subject always amazes me when I hear the prejudice of people here concerning home schooling. I was a member of HSLDA for a while because they will defend you if you have a problem and our home schooling. They do help protect the right of parents to home school. For instance, our county wanted to put every child on a day time "curfew" which meant that any child seen out who is not in school, could be subject to the parent being arrested for their child not being "in" school. One of the home schooling parents that I know wrote a letter to the HSLDA and they stepped in and got to the bottom of this which was the Regional office of Education director overstepping her bounds. So the county backed up and did not go through with this curfew.

Our son grew up to be a wonderful human being, kind and gentle, knew how to carry on a conversation with adults and amazed everyone with his talent in music, even though he only had an IQ of 65. I know what would have happened to him had he stayed in public school where they had him stuck in a special education class that did nothing to help him find his real talents and abilities. Home schooling helped him overcome his disabilities and learn to fly. Sadly, we lost him in a car accident 8 months ago. He changed his little corner of the world and made a significant impact on people. I would not have given up the time we had to spend with him for anything in the world.

That is all this family from Germany is wanting, the chance to give their children their best so that they can grow and learn and reach their potential too. I think if they gave up everything they knew and their country, they are pretty good parents. Their children are obviously their priorities, don't judge them as otherwise.

system?

I think the children would have been far better off in a normal German school than being 'educated' by parents with ideas like those.

to myself, "That's it! Get'em! Who are they to think that they should be able to determine what's best for their kids? After all, shouldn't the state determine what's best for EVERYONE?" :sarcasm: Just amazing how quick some people are to want to see the basic rights of others whose philosophy is different be trampled on.

because I pointed out the idiotic things they object to, such as learning about ethics in non-Christian religions. If you can mischaracterise my post as 'as soon as I saw that they were "Christan's,"' (why the misspelling and bad grammar?), I think that shows you didn't bother reading it fully.

Why do you think it's a basic right for parents to completely control whether their children get a balanced or unbalanced education? Children aren't the property of the parents, you know. It's the children who have a right to education. The parents do not have a right to indoctrinate their children.

whether their children get a "balanced" education. I think it's their RESPONSIBILITY and DUTY to ensure that their children are getting a "balanced" education. How do you know the children in this story were not? Have you seen the curriculim they were using?

And as far as indoctrination is concerned - the definition of which is: to teach the meaning of a belief and its principles - it is absolutely the RIGHT of the parent to teach their children about whatever faith the parent subscribes to. Would you send in the military police to prevent parents from teaching their children about Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism?

and that's what these parents want. I know that the parents want an unbalanced education for the children - they objected to normal things that the German schools were teaching. They want to be the sole arbiters of what their children learn, and they are bigoted, so this will end up harming the children. Remember that the parents specifically don't want their children to learn anything from Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism.

This may be a victory for parents' power over their children, but it's a loss for the education of these particular children.

They attend school for the purpose of learning math, reading, history, science, etc. NOT RELIGION. This family is teaching their children the academics necessary to be successful. The brand of faith which the parents choose to teach to their children - including those they choose to NOT teach - is completely the parents CHOICE and NOT yours or mine!

Do you believe that ALL religions should be taught in our public schools? Under your premise, kids in school here in the U.S. aren't receiving a "balanced" education because they are not taught religion.

The judge in this case (and I'm quoting the article here) "looked at the evidence" and "heard their testimony" and decided that their "basic human rights" were "being violated." According to the parents, the school was teaching "an anti-Christian curriculum." That doesn't sound very "balanced" to me. Does it to You?

BTW, it's not a victory for parents "Power over their children," it's a victory for "parents rights!"

This is a state which collects voluntary taxes on behalf of Christian churches, remember. You have to be an extremist to think the German state (whose head of government is the leader of the Christian Democrats) is 'anti-Christian'. The parents regard the mention of vampires and witches in school as a problem. They think that it's bad to take any ethical lessons from non-Christian religions. These are not things that any parent has a 'right' to stop their children hearing.

Children also attend school to learn how to take part in society fairly; and that's what these parents are objecting to. They want them prejudiced against non-Christians.

I see that you completely ignored my question of whether schools should teach morality.

Referring to the parents, you wrote "They think that it's bad to take any ethical lessons from non-Christian religions." To which I would ask, "What ethical lessons are the other religions teaching that Christianity is not? Can you cite one? BTW, your argument is very presumptuous as there is no mention of in the article, as I recall concerning "ethics."

You also wrote "Children also attend school to learn how to take part in society fairly." Here again, this is the parents responsibility to teach how should interact among other human beings. The school is not there to teach "fairness," which is based on a moral principle.

Again, answer my question: Should the schools in our country teach religion or morality to its students?

You refer to your "question of whether schools should teach morality". A quick search of this thread will show that the only mention of 'moral' or any derived word is mzteris's reply #66.

You actually asked "Do you believe that ALL religions should be taught in our public schools?" That's a different thing. I think children should be taught a basic knowledge of the most common world religions, as part of the social sciences. I also think, as I already stated, they should learn "how to take part in society fairly". For some reason, although you say 'fairness' is based on 'a moral principle' (I'd say more than one, myself), you think this has not answered the question you forgot to ask - "whether schools should teach morality". Yes, I think they should, and it's OK to use religious ideas in that teaching. It shouldn't be done to denigrate any particular religion, or a lack of religion, though.



Please read the article linked in the OP. Then read my post #30, which copies, from the article, "They said textbooks presented ideas and language that conflicted with their Christian beliefs, including slang terms for sex acts and images of vampires and witches, while the school offered what they described as ethics lessons from Islam, Buddhism and other religions." As a hint, that's the post you first replied to in this thread. You know, the one I said I thought you hadn't read fully. You have confirmed my suspicion. Clearly, there is a reference to ethics in the original article, but you haven't bothered checking it, or checking my posts that point it out clearly as a quote from the article; you've just jumped straight to calling my argument presumptuous.

No, I don't know which ethics lessons from other religions they are objecting to; the article doesn't specify. But it does say they object to them.

"Home-schooling has been illegal in Germany since it was outlawed in 1938. Hitler wanted the Nazi state to have complete control of young minds."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/feb/24/schools.uk

Home schooling is Germany is illegal, IF YOU ARE NOT A TRAINED TEACHER! Otherwise, it's viewed as neglect. That's their standard. Nothing prevented them from enrolling in a private school such as Montessori or starting their own school, if they were really teachers.

no one questions that some home schoolers get excellent educations while many children get an education by "trained teachers" that borders on official neglect.

No - this is a traditionally authoritarian country refusing to consider the idea that a mere citizen could know better then the government what is best for their children. Doesn't the fact that the Nazi's implemented the law in the first place give you pause?

were very unqualified to teach anyone. They spent most of their days gossiping with their fellow untrained teachers in the park while their children played almost everyday. One of them was teaching her child because he was failing in school - had transferred from a poor school and she was angry because the evaluation indicated her child needed some special help to get ahead. It is my guess that the kids are now on welfare just like the father and mother were then.

On the other hand I have also seen some very good home schools in our area but they are regulated by the state. They most pass tests to prove they have learned what is needed before they can graduate.

who was pulled out of school after the 7th grade so her stupid ignorant mother who dropped out of school in 8th grade could "homeschool" her. She said she was "taking lessons on the computer." The mother should have been put in jail. The father tried to get the NY Sheriff to collect said teenager when she was 14 but they would not enforce a custody order from Tenessee. The homeschooling laws in the states suck. DSS hardly every enforces truancy. No wonder they keep finding abused starved kids locked in closets.

All my niece is qualified to do/able to get work at is internet porn.

So you want to prohibit everyone because your niece and her mother are ignorant.

I suspect she'd probably be in same place had she stayed in "traditional public school" - though she'd probably also be pregnant. . .

I think that homeschooling families should be held accountable for their schooling. As teachers are made accountable by submitting lesson plans, tests and scores, so should homeschoolers. If they can't hack that--then back to school. There are standards for grade curricula that can easily be referred to at the state education websites. My stupid ignorant ex- sister in law was simply too lazy to make sure her kid made it to school and my brother made a huge stink about her absenteeism in 7th grade.

I actually know a number of people who were home-schooled and they were responsible about it and the kids are a credit to their mentors. One young women I worked with chose to attend a private boarding school for high school as she felt the mentor system was not helping her enough at that level. A doctor I have worked with in the past-- his wife home-schooled all their children and they are brilliant. One is in medical school, another is studying in China, the younger kids are not yet in college. The problem is when there is no follow up. My friend's son is getting home-schooled now with a district home tutor because he forgot to remove his boy scout penknife from his pants pocket and the stupid ignorant school administration suspended him for 10 weeks for bringing a "weapon" to school.

On no instance should a school system allow a child to be home-schooled by an adult who couldn't even get it together enough to obtain a GED without a district tutor checking in weekly and reviewing the work.

And every time we do, the homeschoolers literally invade the state capitol (with their children) and outnumber us. Of course most of us are busy teaching and can't take the day off to go to the capitol.

So we call and we write and we schedule meetings with state reps and tell them the stories of children who return to public school after being homeschooled and struggle to catch up. More than a few of them have sat at home and played video games while Mom is at work. That passes for homeschooling here. There is NO accountability and no one monitors to make sure the kids are actually being educated. And every time we even suggest such a monitoring system, we are SLAMMED by the homeschoolers who say they have the right to educate their own kids, the state wants to invade their privacy and if the public schools didn't suck they wouldn't HAVE TO homeschool.

And the legislature does nothing. More than one state rep has told me they are so anxious for these homeschoolers to leave the capitol and take their children with them that they cave.

The thing that gets me is if these parents are so convinced their children are doing so well in their homeschool, why not let them take the same tests the public school kids are required to take and compare the scores? Seems like that would settle the argument. But that suggestion never gets anywhere either. One mother even told me that this is a ridiculous idea since her kids are learning a completely different curriculum and would never be able to pass the tests. Well, hello, isn't that the point? Why the hell is a different curriculum okay? Besides, learning is learning and if the children are indeed educated, they should be able to pass a test proving this.

:banghead:

Excellent as always.

only fools equate education with competence - look no further than all the highly educated Ivy League crooks on Wall Street. As parent with kids in the public school system I know exactly what I speak of when I pass judgment on "trained educators" who can't teach to save their lives.

There is no magic teacher training that gives you a monopoly on wisdom, judgment and the ability to determine what is best for my kids - as far as I can see, teachers are no different than the parents you look down upon - few are exceptional, few are wretched and the vast majority are average.

No parent with any non education degree can replace me with my degrees and 3 decades of experience. It is arrogant and ignorant to assume you can. It is also ridiculous that because your child had a teacher that you didn't like then you can assume all teachers can't teach to save their lives.

I had a bad doctor once yet I would never assume all doctors are incompetent and would not use that to justify becoming my own doctor.

I also don't look down upon parents. But when they post stupid shit on DU I call them on it.

The teacher bashing here is absolutely repulsive. I work hard at what I do and I am a competent and caring professional. And I deeply resent anyone implying I am not.

the uneducated masses that teacher like you have been producing for decades. Get over your self - you are not special. You work in a failed system that needs to be replaced.

or about what I have done or the level of dedication I have for my students.

YOU are the one displaying arrogance. Grow up.

and how teachers like you refuse to change. You are the reason charter schools and home schooling are so popular.

FAIL

every teacher here feels that somehow they have a special gift - they too scoff at the idea that anyone who is not part of the education industry can teach a child.

the least you should do is know how to capitalize and punctuate.

You are an like oasis in the desert. Just keep on keepin' on. You say it better than I ever could.:headbang: :yourock: :patriot:

:hug:

you are some kind of expert. I have to laugh at your childish remarks.

I agree.

I would argue education is at least as important as those two fields.

:)

For that matter, I had surgery so I can handle my own anesthesia! Just think of the money I would save.

Next time I catch myself speeding, I am going to pull myself over and write myself a ticket.

And if my house catches on fire, I will put it out myself.

I have also decided to get rid of my TV and just read the news out loud to myself. After I write the articles. And I can make little comments to myself following every story. I watch Rachel every night so I know EXACTLY how to do this!

Who needs professionals? :)

What Does Being Trained Have To Do with Being A Good Surgeon?:rofl:

trained does not automatically mean competent. You cannot be taught maturity, common sense, poise, empathy, and all the other things needed to be a good teacher.

:sarcasm:

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

What a fucking joke. Some people . . . :crazy: :rofl:

was wait a minute, isn't Germany one of the countries where the kids supposedly OUTPERFORM American kids?

The hypocrisy in this thread is mind blowing.

"given by the ever lowering educational and cultural standards in our country" . . . .

Why do you think most of us decide to HOMESCHOOL??

While it's true that "some" parents homeschool due to "control issues" - it's also true that more traditionally public schooled children are "controlled" than are homeschooled.

It is ALSO true that many people homeschool because it is the BEST way to educate their child. Many very gifted children, many learning differenced children, many quirky, ADHD, Aspie, Autistic, and otherwise "challenged" can not possible receive even an "adequate" education in the traditional school system. For some, it is not only the best way, but the ONLY way to receive a real education.



BTW - the "German" education system is seriously lacking in a number of areas.

That was why my parents chose to homeschool me - the traditional school system/structure was just not working for me. I was having severe emotional problems and anxiety as a result. They first explored private schools but there weren't any in our area that were a good fit, so they chose to homeschool me. I did well academically and have a college degree. I didn't miss the "socialization" at all, school was hell for me.

Your belief in the "inalienable right" of children to a "proper" education fails utterly on two accounts. Inalienable rights are not granted by the state; by definition, they exist a priori. Second, who decides what constitutes a "proper" education? You don't even pause to question it; you simply assume that the state is the decider. This is an utter subversion of the biological relationship between parent and child. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? No one. They make it a crime to do so.

As for liberation, when the state claims and exercises veto power, backed by police force, over decisions rightly and naturally made for uncounted generations by parents, we are not liberated. We are under a boot-heel, and our power over our own lives and destinies has been drained away.

Both Germany and USA are democracies, and thus the general populace get to decide the overall direction of state education, how the heads of schools and school districts are appointed, how they are monitored, how the teachers are monitored and so on. And the children are seen regularly by both their parents and by the teachers. Thus, the 'guardians' are themselves regularly watched.

With home schooling, there's very little checking up on the educators - the parents. Perhaps there are social services people who come by occasionally; perhaps the state sets up a system to check on the educational progress of the children. But you can see it's overwhelmingly a system in which there are only the one set of parents as the educators - and thus this is the situation in which 'quis custodiet ipsos custodes?' becomes a good question.

In this particular case, the children are going to be taught that there are no possible ethics lessons to be learnt from non-Christian religions, that pictures of vampires and witches are in themselves evil. There may be no normal people involved in their education to counter such superstition and bigotry.

I'm surprised that you think that education is a 'biological' relationship. I can assure you I did not have a biological relationship with my teachers. You also seem to be confusing the power of the parents over their own lives with their limited power over their children's lives.

In a good school district, political and parental concerns are roughly confluent, because parents have not relinquished accountability and authority to the pols. But good school districts are in chronic shortage these days.

Politicians control the funding, which means if they are unchecked by active parents, they control the orthodoxy. When put to a test, I do not and will never trust politicians to do better by my children than I can do myself. It's pathetic I would even have to make such a statement. Open your eyes! Politicians are a nasty, mendacious lot, the worst that humankind has to offer. The few decent ones soon get pulled out to sea by the riptide. We are not offered perfect choices, but choosing between an imperfect parent and an imperfect pol does not take much brain wattage. (I hope I do not have to distinguish between an imperfect and a patently unfit parent here. That said, no parent can be declared unfit for political differences alone.)

It's astonishing that you think that "we" guard the guards. There is no "we." There are tribes, and in our brutal world, they fall along political, not biological lines. The tribes measure their power and ascendancy by how much they can diminish that of other factions. In a nutshell, that is the definition of politics.

For greater than 99% of human existence, a child's parents and kin were its primary teachers in the tribal groups in which we lived. But now in our perverse culture teaching has become a "job" that must be conducted by unrelated "professionals" for pay, and it has come to the point where the hirelings, and not those who pay them, are claiming to be in charge. It has come to the point where ideologues one has never met have usurped the adamantine bond between mother and child.

It's beyond absurd. It's surreal.



edit: typo

And use govt-approved curriculum and I think you have to pass an exam. (For France, a least.)

Some people just don't get it.

that brought the world the Nazi Youth! Get real. Forcing a child to be educated in a school is conveying rights to the state over the child, and taking those rights away from the parent. I feel more comfortable with the parent making decisions about the welfare of the child.

Du'ers who'd agree with the German authorities.

:(

:think:

...you've given me something to think about!

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,674312,00.html


.

"
Home-school Germans flee to UK

A 1938 law designed to ensure state control of all children has provoked a family exodus to Britain

* Buzz up!
* Digg it

* Charlie Francis-Pape and Allan Hall in Berlin
* The Observer, Sunday 24 February 2008
* Article history

Families are fleeing to the UK from Germany to escape a law introduced by Hitler that could lead to their children being taken into care if educated at home. One father, who arrived in Britain with his wife and five children last month, has told The Observer that his family had no choice after being warned that their children would be taken into foster care unless they enrolled them at local schools. Another, who fled in October, said he believed the 70-year-old law was creating hundreds of refugees and forcing families into hiding to protect their children.

Home-schooling has been illegal in Germany since it was outlawed in 1938. Hitler wanted the Nazi state to have complete control of young minds. Today there are rare exemptions, such as for children suffering serious illnesses or psychological problems. Legal attempts through the courts - including the European Court of Human Rights - have so far failed to overturn the ban.
. . . Last year, in an extreme example, 15-year-old Melissa Busekros was removed from her family. Her mother, Gudrun, said more than 15 policemen took her to a psychiatric unit for psychological tests. After refusing to be tested, Melissa was placed in a foster home. She escaped on her 16th birthday and has since been left alone by the authorities.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/feb/24/schools.uk

*********
"Juergen and Rosemary Dudek of Archfeldt, Germany, were sentenced to 90 days in prison in July 2008 because they homeschool their children. Their sentence was overturned by an appeals court because of a legal error, and a new trial was ordered. Their new trial began November 16. German news reports indicate the judge appears disposed to seek a compromise. But prosecutor Herwig Mueller has vowed to appeal any sentence that does not include jail time for these parents, who have been in the spotlight for years because of their insistence on homeschooling. This was the same prosecutor who appealed the lower court sentence of only a fine, saying to the family, “You don’t have to worry about the fine because I will send you to jail.”

". . .urgen and Rosemarie Dudek of Archfeld, Germany, were found guilty under the German State of Hessen’s criminal law that requires that all children go to school. Even as Judge Drier recognized that the family was doing a fine job in educating their children, he still imposed a fine of 120 euros on them.

“We recognize in our German basic law about philosophical and religious conviction and that parents have rights, but the basic law also includes that it is the state’s role to educate all children,” said Drier.

In 2008 the couple had been sentenced to 90 days in jail each. Their trial was completed today after being continued from last week.

As the family left the courtroom they were swarmed by German reporters and media, who have been following this case very closely. Mr. Dudek told the reporters that they had a duty to keep covering this issue for the sake of the country and for what is right.

“It is time for Germany to look beyond the rim of their bowl—to look beyond its borders to see how other countries handle this issue of homeschooling,” said Mr. Dudek.

He chastised the media for not having done more to bring attention to this issue, and that the result has been a heavy burden for his family.

“This whole situation with us as a family wouldn’t have come so far, with all this burden and pressure and sentences, if you had taken up this issue before and looked at this before,” Mr. Dudek said. “Now it is up to you to keep up the interest and reporting on this issue. Germany’s treatment of parents like us is wrong, and it is up to you to help people see this.”

Mr. Dudek felt that their family had received a fair trial, but surmised the judge did not feel like he could do any less than find them guilty and impose a fine."


*****

The Constitution of Germany provides that the “Länder” (states) have almost a full
jurisdiction in educational matters. Each “Land” (state) has extensive powers on education
matters, regulated by legislation adopted by its Parliament. Consequently, Germany does not
have a unified education system, since there is no consistent framework across the different
Länder. At the federal level, different bodies are in charge of certain tasks related to policy
debates and national coordination. One of the most important is the Standing Conference of the
Ministers of Education and Cultural Affairs of the Länder (KMK), which ensures coordination
between and among the Länder and the federal authorities and is in charge of education, research
and cultural policies, as well as advanced training. Moreover, the administration of education is
under shared supervision of the central administration and self-governing local authorities and as
a result schools have reduced autonomy.

. . . 62. According to reports received, it is possible that, in some Länder, education is understood
exclusively to mean school attendance. Even though the Special Rapporteur is a strong advocate
of public, free and compulsory education, it should be noted that education may not be reduced
to mere school attendance and that educational processes should be strengthened to ensure that
they always and primarily serve the best interests of the child. Distance learning methods and
home schooling represent valid options which could be developed in certain circumstances,
bearing in mind that parents have the right to choose the appropriate type of education for their
children, as stipulated in article 13 of the International Covenant on Economic, Social and
Cultural Rights. The promotion and development of a system of public, government-funded
education should not entail the suppression of forms of education that do not require attendance
at a school. In this context, the Special Rapporteur received complaints about threats to
withdraw the parental rights of parents who chose home-schooling methods for their children.

IMPLEMENTATION OF GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION 60/251
OF 15 MARCH 2006 ENTITLED “HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL”
Report of the Special Rapporteur on the right to education, Vernor Muñoz
Addendum
MISSION TO GERMANY*
http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Germany/Munoz_Mission_on_Germany.pdf

Education now equals persecution and entitles one to refugee status.

If you're a fundamentalist "Christian," that is.

was a child and in the early 80s. I worked in the american hospital with many germans and other nationals from other countries. They are a good people. I would suggest they have laws that kids have to go to school. We have laws here to that we have to follow. What allot of people don't seem to realize many parents are keeping their kids home for religious reasons. Did anyone see that documentary on the Jesus Camp? That should scare anyone who has seen it. They are raising their children to be future leaders of power. One family they didn't pledge alligence to the Flag they had some type of pledge to god and whatever. These people are delusional thinking that they are being held back. These people weren't being denied anything. They have many churches in their country. In fact they have a church tax everyone has to pay unless you ask for an exemption. The money they collect go to the churchs and the churchs can't go out begging for money.

when the 12 year old and his mom are discussing Galileo and the kid says "Oh, NOW I understand why Galileo gave up Science for Christ!"

And the mom, since she is just an ignorant uneducated wingnut says yes, that's right. And of course she leaves out the whole Inquisition and imprisonment part of the story not to mention the stuff about the earth orbiting around the sun.

Who needs Science when Jesus awaits? :rofl:

It will weaken public support for traditional asylum claimants, like those named in the Guardian article.

yes

and we can always count on the government to get it right? Doesn't the fact that they are using Nazi era laws give you pause? Would you feel the same if that power was wielded by a conservative government and directed at a belief you espouse?

The issue here is the balance between government power and personal freedoms - I am always shocked at how many so call progressives fall out on the side of government.

poor countries with NO schools.

but not having it doesn't come close to the basic human rights not respected in many places.

Educating children is the responsibility of their parents, not the state.

While we're at it, let's encourage even more religious extremists to immigrate or apply for asylum so that they can spiritually assist America in its transition into third world conditions.

And the ones that are, do you really want them being a pain in the ass at your local public school, throwing a fit every time somebody mentions a date more than six thousand years ago?

Looks like your homeschooling didn't alert you to reality, did it?

:shrug:

Homeschoolers are all over the religious and political map. Some homeschool for the simple fact that their school district is failing. Why should they not do what is best for their children?

Where are you getting your statistics?

There are a lot of them, granted, but the largest growth is being seen in people who homeschool for EDUCATION reasons - not religious.

I lived in a small town with a Southern Baptist Seminary - the one that started the whole "fundamentalist Baptist" movement - and there were a whole damn lot of us hippie liberals who hs'ed. We had two pagans, an atheist, two Methodists, an Episcopalian, several agnostics, a Jewish/Baptist family, a Native American Spiritualist - just to name a few.

Looks like your public schooling didn't alert you to research and statistics, did it?

NCES report:

In the spring of 2007, about 1.5 million, or 2.9 percent of all school-age children, were homeschooled in the United States, an increase from both 1999 and 2003.
Parents give many different reasons for homeschooling their children. In 2007, the most common reason parents gave as the most important was a desire to provide religious or moral instruction (36 percent of students (83% stated this was "important) . . . This reason was followed by a concern about the school environment (such as safety, drugs, or negative peer pressure) (21 percent - 87% stated "important"), dissatisfaction with academic instruction (17 percent - 73%: important), and "other reasons" including family time, finances, travel, and distance (14 percent - 32% important). Parents of about 7 percent of homeschooled students cited the desire to provide their child with a nontraditional approach to education as the most important reason for homeschooling (65% important), and the parents of another 6 percent of students cited a child's health problems or special needs (32%: important).

let me add: - people were allowed to pick more that one reason - most people have MULTIPLE reasons to hs.

Adn in case you're interested:

Standard errors for the number and percentage of school-age children who were homeschooled, by
reasons parents gave as important and most important for homeschooling: 2007

Standard errors for the number and percentage of school-age children who were homeschooled, by reasons parents gave as important and most important for homeschooling: 2007

Reason|Important |Most important|Number|Percent Number|Percent

religious or moral instruction |113,300 |2.29 |77,900 |3.83
concern about environment of other schools| 111,300| 2.48| 60,400| 3.44
dissatisfaction with academic instruction at other schools| 103,600| 3.27| 49,000| 3.20
*Other reasons| 71,600| 3.86| 36,300| 2.23
desire to provide a nontraditional approach to child’s education| 102,700| 4.55| 26,900| 1.86
other special needs| 55,400| 3.31| 15,100| 1.02
physical or mental health problem| 31,500| 1.94| 11,300| 0.75

*family time, finances, travel, and distance

Homeschooling is a major boogyman of authoritarian pseudo-progressives.

:eyes:

Children and their education are primarily the responsibility of their parents. How did you jump from there to a 90's Republican soundbite, pray tell?

Unfortunately the US got more of what they need least, more fundies.

Homeschoolers being insta fundies just is not true anymore. Parents of children with special needs, in failing districts, and those who simply want more for their children homeschool. There are DUers who homeschool. Go ahead and peg them as fundies. Just proves how ignorant you are.

And calling it a "win" when the state controls how you raise your children is frightening....

I was commenting on a specific case i.e. http://www.spiegel.de/schulspiegel/wissen/0,1518,674309,00.html

All I can add is that my public school taught me to read and they certainly did not force my parents to control how I was brought up.

That pretty much speaks to the gulf right there.

Children are not property that parents can control.

Of course, it's also true that:
Children are not property that the state can control.

Speaking as somebody who's likely only still alive BECAUSE the state stepped in (more than once), I think it's a darned good thing that the state doesn't allow parents to raise children any damned way they want.

Malnutrition, battery, sexual abuse, cult indoctrination... yeah, there are darned good reasons for the state to control how children are raised. Parents don't get to decide, because parents aren't always the best decision makers.

The family in question pulled their children out because of the "anti-christian" principles being taught in school.

Apparently their children got into arguments at school because information about the Buddhist and Islamic faith was included to shed a better light upon them.

Now let us think about Germany's history and then this case. If a fundamentalist family is raising their children to disrespect or perhaps mistrust and hate another group and purposesly pulls them out of school, why wouldn't the German government be concerned?

your picture.

Aggressive Progressive, my ass. . . (no pun intended.)

CHOICE in schooling IS progressive. Unless you like the one-size-fits-all-model. :shrug:

Did you know that the modern traditional public school model was based on training people to work in factories?

The rabid defenders of our education system will always forget to mention that it is based on the Prussian system, designed to create loyal subjects of the Kaiser.

If I had kids I would be raising hell if I were FORCED to send by kids into institutions that train our kids to be mindless consumerist robots.

Unfortunately, you seem to have it upside-down.

> that train our kids to be mindless consumerist robots.

In this case, the state was trying to *prevent* the kids from being
trained to be "mindless consumerist robots" but the parents preferred
to uproot them, drag them across the Atlantic and claim asylum.

Still, you should be glad that the USA will now benefit from more
children being brought up in an atmosphere of intolerance & religious
fundamentalism as at least that should balance out the unbelievable
surplus of tolerant atheists that you currently have ... oh, wait ...

Maybe you missed your English comprehension class
when you went to your Mum's fridge for a coke?

I wasn't claiming that "most homeschoolers are fundies".

I pointed out that these particular homeschoolers are fundies.

I also commented that, as bigoted white pseudo-Christian fundies,
they are probably in the best place for it regardless of *how* their
(now) fellow fundies became such.

:shrug:

for religious or moral instruction, which can be very easily interpreted as fundie, as homeschooling is a central part of many fundamentalist churches.

Fact:



link

Nice spin to pretend "progressives" homeschool in any great numbers. They don't. Nobody who is a progressive supports the abolition of public education.

:sarcasm:

Let's also not forget that Germany is one of those countries whose kids supposedly outscore ours on all those tests. :eyes:

As another article someone links to above points out, some German parents have moved to Britain, where you are allowed to homeschool (though you may have to spend a lot of time demonstrating you are educating your children properly, and not just neglecting them). Any German has a right to move to, and work in, the UK or Ireland (if they needed English as the normal language; there's Austria too for German, though I've no idea what their homeschooling rules are), without any claims of 'asylum', or even normal immigration procedures.

Since asylum seekers are meant to seek asylum in the nearest safe place, I'm a bit surprised the US authorities didn't tell them to go back to the EU and sort their lives out without the extra government interference of granting asylum that they seem to hate so much.

Granting asylum under the circumstances you describe so well shoves the bobsled down the slippery slope. (Winter Olympics start Feb. 12).

Giving asylum to parents unhappy with the schools in other countries might end up causing a very negative backlash against granting asylum in the traditional categories of heinous governmental behavior.

If you did not send your children to school you could be charged with neglect. So, I have a hard time agreeing with the judge.

It seems like such a minute issue for asylum as compared to people who are tortured and murdered who seek asylum. What is this couple's plea? "Help me, they are forcing me to send my children to school for an education." And that compares to people who are being locked away for political dissent?

Though I can see legitimate reasons for homeschooling, most of the home schoolers I have met are severely lacking in educational abilities. When I was in recruiting (about 10 years ago, right before the bushes started the war), we would get many applicants who were home schooled. The majority of them scored very low on the ASVAB test and had difficulty qualifying for service. Though we took home school diplomas as equivalent to a high school diplomas, the quality of people with home school diplomas was abysmal.

If the parents had been atheists who didn't want to send their children to religious instruction in the state school they would have been laughed out of an American court..

How many atheist families from overwhelmingly Muslim countries are given asylum in the US for religious reasons?

I don't recall ever hearing of a single case.

We turn the truly needy away all the time but these people... and they moved to TN... "Along with thousands of torture victims..." the article notes, as if the Romeike's situation has anything to do with real persecution...

Wish Norway/Sweden/UK/Canada would give ME political asylum...

They're absolutely nuts to want to come to a country where healthcare is not a basic human right.

Given the fact that many people live under real persecution and we can't take them all. What about those women who can't leave Saudi Arabia? This is nothing compared to that.

Fundies are in positions of power and ready to abuse it, obviously.

How can this possibly be compared to real political persecution?

I think I will drive as fast as I want to and then ask for asylum in another country to avoid having to pay the fines or lose my license! :sarcasm:

Also why can't they just move here legally as other immigrants do?

As a Leadfoot-American, I think you might have a very good case for political asylum in Germany - they do have the Autobahn! (Much of which was also built in the Nazi era, but you don't hear people clamoring to get rid of it, do you?)

It is absolutely and completely reprehensible that lesbians and gay men in Iraq, in Uganda, and in Jamaica are forced to live in fear for of their lives, either as consequence of Shiite extremists coming to power subsequent to a power vacuum brought about through American intervention (Iraq) or as a result of overwhelming political and social persecution fueled largely by the influence of American missionaries and their dogma of hate. Obama is complicit in this scandal by virtue of his willingness to give human waste like Rick Warren a seat at the table.

A country that would rather help fundamentalist Christians flee a world-class education system than help sexual and gender minorities flee political persecution cannot be called civilized. We need to see the same focus-of-mind that fueled the horrors of White Man's Burden and of Manifest Destiny applied to a cause that is noble this time, rather than base, as had been the case before. We need a program of re-education and re-socialization that will strike a dagger through the heart of the fundamentalist mentality and the hatred, the fear, and the ignorance which stems from it. The imperialist mentality of the past must now be applied to a program of culture and ethical change focussed on social progress, on economic justice, and on reason.

I wish I could rec this post. You should make it a thread somewhere.

and as others have asked in the thread, WHY didn't they try another EU country where they could homeschool all they wanted??

Hell, I want to switch with them! I'm tired of the U.S. prosecuting me with bad healthcare, a low-rent domestic soccer league, and no Formula 1 races...

And as an aside, unless piano teachers make a lot more in Germany than I'm guessing, this father is going to have a really fun time getting healthcare for the wifey and five kids...

has to say about this; sie ist auf Frankfurt.

IMO, People who are home schooled end up lacking proper social skills and will have much lower IQs. This is due to the parents who themselves, lack an understanding of the material.

I am on the side of Deutschland, who has an expectation that their populace is to be properly educated. Home schooling does not provide the structures for students to receive a proper education.

"German authorities fined them thousands of euros for keeping their children out of school and sent police to escort them to classes, Romeike said. They had been holding classes in their home." They broke the law...

"I think it's important for parents to have the freedom to chose the way their children can be taught," Just imagine if every one taught their kids at home, the social clusterfuck that their would be because every single person did not learn the same thing and if they did, how many variations of that subject would their be?

sorry, but some things need the correct structure in order to viable. Home schooling is not the right way to educate and if you want to keep your kids home and teach them psychics or chemistry yourself, so be it; but you would just be wasting your time and denying your kids a correct understanding of how the world works.

if a five-kid Mexican family were seeking political asylum in red county, Tennessee, what the result would have been...

on the border and claimed endangerment from the drug barons who rule the area by fiat

They have other remedies other than asylum in America so the answer to your question is no.

see # 59...

so why here?

because there is always some other country they could go to. But you know that's not how asylum works - the judge has two choices: stay here or send them back to their country of origin. Sending them to some third country is not an option.

The animosity against Mexicans is getting worse with all these budget cuts. The RW is allowing its more whacko fringe to blame Mexicans for all our ills.

Oh, FFS.

So now we get them. Lovely.

That is all.

Since the OP is way more than 24 hours old. Thanks for playing.