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Man Dies After Ambulance Can't Reach Him In Snow (in the City for 3 days)

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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 10:49 AM
Original message
Man Dies After Ambulance Can't Reach Him In Snow (in the City for 3 days)
Edited on Wed Feb-17-10 10:53 AM by RamboLiberal
Source: WTAE-TV

PITTSBURGH -- Mayor Luke Ravenstahl said the city is reviewing "all aspects" of a 911 call for a Pittsburgh man who died after an ambulance was unable to reach his home during the storm that dumped 20 inches of snow on the city earlier this month.

"It's unacceptable. You've got to get out of your truck and you've got to go there," Public Safety Director Michael Huss said Tuesday.

Sharon Edge said she called for help when her longtime partner, Curtis Mitchell, started having severe abdominal pain at their Hazelwood home on the night of Feb. 5 and was unable to walk.

"They said they are going to send an ambulance when they get in the neighborhood, and so I hung up, and then I kept calling back. Every half-hour, I kept calling back," Edge said.

-----

"They said, 'The ambulance is by the bridge, can you get to the bridge?' I said, 'He can't walk, he can't get to the bridge.' I couldn't carry him because he's, like, 189 pounds," Edge said.

Read more: http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/allegheny/22582747/detail.html




Ambulances were dispatched three times on Saturday, Feb. 6, to the couple's home in the 5100 block of narrow Chaplain Way, but couldn't get there because of the snow. Paramedics twice asked whether Mr. Mitchell could walk to an intersection, even after he told them that he could not because he was in too much pain.

Emergency vehicles were within blocks of his home three times -- once so close Ms. Edge could see the ambulance lights from her porch -- but did not make contact with him. They finally reached the home on Sunday morning, Feb. 7, but Mr. Mitchell was already dead.

"We should have gotten there," Public Safety Director Michael Huss said. "It's that simple."

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10048/1036403-53.stm#ixzz0foDjk0XB

Being a native of the Pittsburgh area I assumed when I first heard this story that the street was probably on one of the hills, but looking at the map that area is near the Mon river and is relatively flat except for bridge over railroad tracks. It is also only blocks from a main artery (Second Ave). Pittsburgh though did a horrible job for 4+ days of even having the main arteries clear.

I hope they fire the jerks who wouldn't walk in to get this guy. I'm wondering if they were afraid of the neighborhood which is mostly African-American and does have a reputation for crime. Or were they just too damn lazy to have to walk in nearly 2 feet of snow? And why the hell couldn't they call a plow in or even a big 4WD. On flat streets a big 4WD should've been able to get through. Or start putting chains on ambulances back like they did when I was a kid.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
1. Took him two days to die. They couldn't send a plow in TWO DAYS?
I'm pretty sure the fact that he was in Hazelwood (and not, you know, Fox Chapel) might have something to do with this, too.
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hmorehead Donating Member (656 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
2. What happens when taxes are cut. The roads go first. Then us.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Taxes won't solve incompetence and bureaucracy...
"Complicating matters, communication problems meant that each call was seen as an individual request for help. Information gained on previous calls was not passed down during the next request, said Ron Roth, medical director for the city's public safety department and Allegheny County's emergency operations center."

"Less than an hour later, Ms. Edge called again to tell dispatchers that her boyfriend took sleeping and pain pills and she "could not get him up."

A doctor who called Ms. Edge back was "convinced he took his prescribed medications and went to sleep," Dr. Roth said, and the call was canceled."


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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Don't worry, your Government knows whats best. They will take care of you. n/t
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
29. This is called DEMOCRATIC Underground because we support
the existence of government services which must be available to ALL members of a community and not just the wealthy.

Repuke/Randwackadoodle Underground is thataway >>>>>>>
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. What about the TSA?
:)
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hmorehead Donating Member (656 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
30. Roads are built by the lowest bidder. Cheap ain't smart all the time, either. Taxes keep the roads
right and people working. Taxes are not only neccessary but required by societies where all few individuals share in the actual labor but derive benefit from the project. That takes taxes. And the higher the benefit derived, the higher the taxe rate should be. If Corporations have rights, they have obligations, too. Including taxes and higher taxes in porportion to benefit derived from the enterprise - war and profeteering therof, for example. You know, Dick Cheney and Haliburton and the Iraq war.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. So taxes should be increased and it will solve this problem?
:shrug:
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Marthe48 Donating Member (473 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. If we stopped spending tax money on killing people
as in feeding the military/industrial complex, there'd be enough money to handle saving lives in medical emergencies. But no, we were once focused on peace, now we are trained on war. These people are more victims of Bush, Cheney and Republicans.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. So more money in this situation will solve this incompetence?
Will it also make the mayor stay in town?
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hmorehead Donating Member (656 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #32
49. What do you want to do: wiggle your nose or wave a wand? Taxes are how we pay for our works.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Please point out where more money would have improved this situation?
Does the mayor need a raise?
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hmorehead Donating Member (656 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. You mean like doing the people's business like overtime, like having plows available. 24" snows
aren't that unusual in P'burg. Its called infrastructure and it takes tax dollars.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. So the city of Pittsburgh doesn't pay overtime?.
Edited on Thu Feb-18-10 09:22 PM by WriteDown
Is that why the mayor and the emergency service director skipped town? As they say, the fish rots from the head down.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
37. We need both infrastructure and competence, though. And tax cut after tax cut won't yield either.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. True....
No evidence that this is a lack of infrastructure though. Plenty of evidence that there is a severe lack of competence though .
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Depends upon how you define infrastructure. Plowing the victim's street after the snow storm would
have avoided the problem. And, yes, the 911 system broke down, too. But, we would not have even known that if the street had been plowed.

Besides, maybe money doesn't ensure competence, but low salaries sure don't guarantee it, either. Money, if well spent, can buy good system design, good competence testing, etc. Lack of money very often buys doo doo. Hence, the expression, "You only get what you pay for." (Not true in my case, bc I'm a great shopper, but I understand the concept.)

I've never known you to sneer at what money can buy before.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Agreed....
But when your plow driver's call in sick to watch the Superbowl, then you still have problems. :) I think a lot of the blame rests with the mayor in this case, but I guess you have to party for your 30th. :eyes:
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Yep - Pittsburgh has been in Act 47 for quite awhile
And this has been a one-party town for decades, in this case Democrats. Now I'd rather Democrats run the show but when you have only one-party you tend not to get good reps cause unless they get a strong primary challenge they glide to victory.

Also the biggest employers in the city, the universities and big medical centers are non-profits so don't pay city taxes.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
38. Same in Boston, especially as to not for profits owning most of the real estate.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
39. The City of Pittsburgh hasn't cut property taxes in a decade
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
4. This is inexcusable!
You grab your little EMT toolbox and trudge through the snow. Do something! :wtf:
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. We actually did that once after I was driving and got stuck.
Thankfully it wasn't too serious, but how sad this story is. That poor family.
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
6. This is horrible.
Life in the U.S. with a broken healthcare system, where it's considered unimportant if people die.


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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. What changes to 911 are there being proposed in health legislation? nt
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
9. what no snowmobiles and sleds in pittsburgh?
i`d think there would be someone in the area that had one......


there`s no excuse not to use a snowmobile to reach that man in need
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. They didn't need a snowmobile.
They could've gotten out of the ambulance and walked a few hundred feet. They're probably instructed to never leave the ambulance unless they are at the assigned address for fear of being sued if one of the EMT injures themselves.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Or Quad Runners
There were a quite a few people with quad runners in my neighborhood outside Pittsburgh this past week. I even read my local police used them at the height of the emergency.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. It is even cheaper, why no CHAINS????
Chains are cheap and effective. A team can put them on in about five minutes (faster if it is done by a Mechanic in a shop). Chains could be stored on the Ambulances for use when needed (When I drive 2 1/2 ton trucks for the National Guard, chains were ALWAYS issued when the Truck went out as part of the "Pioneer Equipment" for the truck). Are chains easy to put on? No but even a team of two 85 pound women can put chains on (If trained and equipped with chains). Thus equipment should NOT have been a problem, the City of Pittsburgh "Ambulances" used by the paramedics are based on trucks thus with chains could have gone to this address even if it was on a hillside.

After I wrote the above and remember when the City Paramedics came and took my mother last summer it was in "Ambulance" based on a Medium truck thus had the room to store chains and probably had them on the Vehicle. My question is WHY did the Paramedics NOT go to the house to see the patient? I do NOT see the paramedics NOT going to the home given the distance stated in the Article UNLESS someone pulled them off for other calls. Something is wrong here and I suspect it is something more then the roads NOT being cleared. Could be a refusal to put the chains on, could be no chains, could be the Ambulance was called off to go to another location. Could be the Ambulance sent was to WIDE to go on the street (i.e. the drivers told dispatch to send another, smaller ambulance, but none were available so none were sent). Something is wrong here and the more I write and think about it (And remembering the size of the "Ambulance" sent to get my mother) I suspect it might be that the Vehicles sent were to WIDE given the snow and no smaller Vehicles were available.

The City of Pittsburgh for Decades have purchased Mid-Size cars instead of going with the state and buying Large cars for the Police (The State Police gets a discount, that any police department in the state can join in on, but the State Police buy Ford Crown Victorias NOT the mid-size cars needed on many of the Narrow Streets on the older parts of Pittsburgh, yes it is funny, seeing University of Pittsburgh Police is their large Crown Victoria following smaller City Police Cars, remember Oakland was one of the last areas of Pittsburgh developed, Hazelwood and the other River Communities were developed decades before Oakland and as such tended to have very narrow streets compared to Oakland). The Large Ambiance that came to pick up my mother would have had problems in the Narrow Streets of the South side hill side (Which I am familiar with) as while as Hazelwood (Which I am less familiar with).

The Fire Department has a similar problem as the Police, they have to be careful as to the size of the Fire Trucks they buy, to make sure they can go on a narrow streets of the older parts of the City. Thus the City tend to buy narrower then normal Fire Trucks.

Just an observation that given the Cars parked on the side of the road (And no place else to park) which made the road narrower then normal just by parking further from the curb do to the snow piled up on the curb, made have made the road to narrow for the ambulance to go on. A narrower ambulance may have been needed and requested but NOT SENT. The reason it was not sent? None were available for they were on other calls on Narrow Streets.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Chains? I haven't seen anyone use chains since the 60's
Maybe the 70's in this area. I doubt they even buy them anymore probably because snowfalls like this have become somewhat rare unlike the 50's/60's/70's when we seemed to get at least one snowfall or two a year of this magnitude.

They should invest in some chains or at least a good 4WD emergency vehicle in each area of the city suitable to the width of the streets.

My bet is still the EMS were scared to walk in that section of the city. It's become very blighted and has gotten a reputation for crime.
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. They get used quite often here in California..
When they get a good snow in the Sierras, they have a checkpoint where you have to install chains, or you cannot proceed.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Yep - I know they get used in the West quite a bit
But here in the Mid-Atlantic it faded away when front wheel and AWD vehicles came in to vogue.

But cities like Pittsburgh ought to have them and make it rule for their emergency vehicles to put on when they get a heavy snowfall or ice conditions.
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Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
42. They still get used in the Appalachians.
My parents have always, ALWAYS keep a set around. (SW VA) They don't get epic snowfalls like this year very often, but even a little snow can make the mountain roads dangerous, and chains really help.

I don't understand why Pittsburgh wouldn't keep them around for emergencies. They're not expensive and they don't have an expiration date!
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #42
55. Actually saw my first set of chains on a vehicle in a long time today
United States Postal Service Truck.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. I've used Chains, but then I live in Johnstown, we get a little more snow then Pittsburgh
And the snow tend to stay longer (We joked that Johnstown's snow removal policy is "Spring is around the corner"). I used chains right after the two foot snow fall last week, it helped on the snow. The biggest problem with chains is the off and on again snow removal. The local vehicles used to plow the snow all had chains (I use the Term Vehicles for it was not only Trucks with snow plows, but heavy duty scrapper and other road construction equipment). Even the Postal Service put chains on their trucks. Thus chains are used, but generally put on by the Mechanics before the Vehicle goes out on its rounds.
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #19
47. The USPS uses chains.
If those little mail buggies can get through, it's hard to understand why an emergency vehicle couldn't.

(That *might* be only down here where snow is rarer, YMMV)
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #47
56. Yep - saw a bigger USPS truck today with them on
And I complimented my mail guy. Told him he deserved this past Monday's holiday. They and the news paper deliver missed on Saturday - the great dig out day last week. But after that both have gotten through.
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
11. EMS didn't believe it was an Emergency
Triaged over the phone as a non-emergency. Because once the lowest level EMS person arrives they can't leave until transferred to a higher qualified person. Until you get up to a doctor that can actually diagnose.

Sounds like the root cause rests with EMS proceedures and a belief of some EMS personnel that certain individuals use the EMS system as a sort of free taxi service.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
12. BTW the mayor & his chief of emergency services
Were out of town the weekend of the storm, at a ski resort, celebrating the mayor's 30th birthday. They left Friday even though the storm was forecast.

His Chief of Staff and also his new media relations person are on vacation this week.

Many plow drivers & public works folks called in the Sunday of the storm so they could stay home to see the Super Bowl.

Then the mayor and city council got petulant playing the media with a game of can't find the mayor, rumors he's at Mardi Gras, when he was in the city all day, but his staff telling media they can't find him.

Mayor Luke's maturity has been questioned in the past - he did little this past week to allay the questions. Rob Rogers our great liberal editorial cartoonist portrays him as a little kid with his drink box.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. The mayor is 30?
He must have ran one heck of a campaign.

Sounds like the plow drivers have their priorities straight. :eyes:
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. He inheirited the job
When the mayor who had the job less than a year Bob O' Connor died of brain cancer. Then no Dem stepped up to challenge Luke in the primary and being a one-party system in Pittsburgh Luke glided to victory. The incumbent has the luxury of racking up a huge war chest for campaigns.

You can bet this wouldn't have happened under O' Connor.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. The snow hit the Friday BEFORE the Super bowl
And thus the truck drivers had worked through the Snow on Friday and again as the snow stopped on Saturday. The Main Streets were passable come Saturday Night. Secondary roads were another story, but you do those as you have personnel. Trucks worked through the Super bowl, I suspect some workers did call off, but not enough to slow down the plowing (and after two days of Plowing many needed a break). The more I hear people saying "Workers called Off" the more I believe someone is looking for anything to blame this debacle on EXCEPT that fact no one planned for it (and thus it is the Mayor's fault). The First question I would ask of anyone who cites this reason is to ask how many called off? And how did that prevent the 60 trucks the City has from operating? To operate 60 trucks 24 hours a day requires at least 90 men (And when I use the term "men" I include women in that number). Remember you need at least 8 hours of sleep. You can operate 60 trucks for 16 hours at a time but then you have to give those men some sleep. The remaining 8 hours in the day can be done by 30 men working 16 hours. The 60 plus 30 adds up to 90. Now that is the bare number of men needed and it requires people to be scheduled in such a way that each man gets 8 hours off work while the truck is being operated by someone else.

Now the above count of 90 is theoretical only. 60 men working 16 hours days is a killer AND the second shift of 30 is presumed to be able to operate two different trucks during two 8 subsequent 8 hour shifts. Neither will happen thus you need at least 120 men just to give the men at least 12 hours off to recover. The City can avoid having 180 men by working the men four hours overtime (60 x3=180, 180 is the bare minimum you need if you just work the men 8 hours a day). This does NOT include the Mechanics needed to keep these trucks working (Through much of the Mechanical work can be done pre-storm, freeing the Mechanics to drive some of the Trucks).

And please do not compare Penndot use of 60 trucks to clear its highway to the City of Pittsburgh use of the same number of Trucks. First Pittsburgh cleans many of the State Highways within the City limits, Pa 51, PA 885, Forbes and Fifth Avenue (Those are state Maintained Roads) etc. Any road with a Sidewalk on it and housing or business close to it tend to be City cleaned while the State does the Interstates and other major roads without Sidewalks AND Homes and Stores close to the edge of the Road (Thus the State has an easier time just pushing the Snow off to the Side, the City of Pittsburgh soon found out it had no place to push the snow). Just a comment on WHY 60 trucks may be enough for Penndot in South Western Pennsylvania BUT not enough for the City of Pittsburgh AND why it was harder for the City to recover then the surrounding Suburbs. Mt Lebanon has Sidewalks but also huge areas of Front yards people can throw the snow onto (Even as the township plows the snow off the road and onto the Sidewalks). Most City Neighborhoods do NOT have that front plot of Grass to dump the Snow, thus the snow MUST be moved OR left at the curb to melt. In most snow storms leaving the Snow on the Curb is good enough. Early and late winter storms (Which dumps the most snow at one time in Western Pennsylvania) the snow melts within 2-3 days (The reason for this is the Moisture comes on a Warm Front that hits a Cold Front and where the two areas meet, snow is formed as the Air cools. but given that it is a Warm Front it warms up after the snow has fallen, or as the snow falls, and melts the snow in 2-3 days) rarely cause problems for more then 2-3 days. This storm is weird, it is a Massive Mid-Winter Storm. The Warm front that brought the moisture did NOT stay, instead the Cold Area pushed it to the East. We were dumped AND the snow did NOT melt before the Second Storm hit (another Warm front pushed East once it had dropped its snow). We have seen a couple of Cold Fronts go through this area, but like most Cold Front just dropped off 1-2 inches of snow at a time (Which is normal during Mid-Winter). No one saw this set of storms coming AND the City is the least equipped to work on such a storm (Again do to the Nature of how the Streets were designed and homes built on them).

My point is simple, the problem was NOT that workers called off to watch the Super Bowl, but that the City did NOT have the equipment or personnel to handle a storm of this magnitude.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Think you meant to respond to post 12. nt
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. If they were scheduled to work then they had no excuse to call in sick
And it was many of the main streets that were still a mess Monday, Tuesday, into Wednesday after the storm that were the cities responsibilty. Downtown, Fifth Avenue, Bridges, Carson Street all a mess. Many were rutted like something out of Afghanistan. There are still city residents a week and a half later whose streets haven't been dug out or have only been swiped once with a plow. Heck liberal talk show host Lynn Cullen's street in Shadyside/Squirrel Hill area isn't dug out yet. One of her neighbors took it upon themselves to hire their own contractor to clear part of the street.

I've lived here for 50+ years and we've had snows almost this bad in the past along with cold weather.

Penndot doesn't get a pass from me either - many of their main roads were equally bad but for not as long as city of Pittsburgh streets.

They were late too in calling in private contractors to help. And even the firefighters to help residents dig out.

I'm not blaming the drivers who worked their butts off but there were those in Pittsburgh city management from the top down who failed miserably in this one.

And the power companies fell down as well. Many people went a week + without power.

IMHO we have failing infrastructure in many areas of the country and it will only get worse as this country goes down hill.

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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. I blame leadership of the City, I am just SICK of the leadership blaming workers for such mistakes
The Mistakes were NOT that of the Workers, but management. This is the worse possible storm for the City of Pittsburgh, a once in a 100 year storm. You do NOT plan for such storms, but you should have plans that can be adapted for such storms. 60 trucks for the Streets of Pittsburgh is to low. The City has something like 300 Police cars, given the terran of the City of Pittsburgh why do you need cars? Could a Jeep Liberty do the job? I Mention the Liberty for you can get some light weight plows for the Liberty that could be used to aid the big trucks in a storm of his magnitude. Such Jeep Liberties could NOT do the Job themselves (The Libertys and Plows are to small), but 300 additional vehicles could have helped. Furthermore given that the Liberty is a narrow vehicle, it could be used to clean the snow off sidewalks. Similar size vehicles are used that way in Johnstown on the Sidewalks of the various bridges in Johnstown (This would give Pedestrians someplace to walk other then the road itself).

Articles on number of Police Cars is mentioned:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10034/1032961-53.stm

Firetrucks/Fire Engines/Quints could also have plows available and supplement the 60 trucks used to clear the streets. These could be full size plows, adding 38 trucks to the 60 to plow the streets. This would be a little overkill, but the plows could be added only when needed in a storm like this one, otherwise kept in storage till needed. Such Plows would last for years for they would be rarely used, but it would be a good back up plan for a extra heavy storm like this one. Now the fire engines the City has today may NOT be able to take on a plow, but as the engines are replaced make sure one of the requirements of its replacement is that it can take a plow.

List of Fire Trucks/Engines/Quints of the City of Pittsburgh
http://www.pittsburghmetrofire.com/pfb.htm

What is a Quint? it is a combination Fire Engine and Ladder Truck (i.e. has a Pump and a Ladder), tends to be smaller then both so more usable on narrow Pittsburgh Streets:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quint_(fire_apparatus)

A fire truck is a Truck with an Ladder

A Fire engine is a Truck without a ladder, but has a pump.


Former Mayor Murphy said Private Contractors could have been called in on day one to help with the load. None were called in for 2-3 days afterward for no one thought of following what Mayor Murphy had done in the early 1990s when the last big snow storm hit Pittsburgh.

I hate to say this but one has to plan for a one in 20 year snow storm, and the 1993 storm is smaller then this one, but is typical of what is a normal one in 20 year storm. You have to plan for such storms, for if you get a one in 100 storm or a one in 500 year storm, it gives you the guidelines to adjust. In this storm the City did NOT even seem to have the ability to do a one in 20 year storm, for if it did, the problems would NOT have been as bad is it was. I am NOT calling for bobcats to load up the Snow and Dump trucks to dump the snow (That is what is needed in a storm like this, a one in 100 year storm, in such a storm you contract that out when needed AFTER the storm has passed) but just planning for an extra heavy storm which Pittsburgh Gets about once every 20 years. The above would provide that coverage at minimal cost to the City, but it would have to be planned for and every so often the plows would have to be attached and NOT used for the Storm that was predicted to dump the snow ends up NOT dumping the snow. People get sick of this, putting on plows and taking them off and the plows never being used. Another cost is storage of the Plows. Plows take up space and have to be stored and maintained. Those are costs of being prepared, most times the preparation is a waste of money. Every 20 or so years it will pay for itself, but you take the good with the bad and having to put on the plows and take them off is a small price to pay compared to all of the streets closed in the city, the Schools and businesses closed do to the lack of snow removal you will have when Pittsburgh has its next once in 20 year storm.

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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #46
51. A better idea would be not to have snowstorms during the Superbowl...
Edited on Thu Feb-18-10 10:30 AM by WriteDown
You can't expect people to want to work on the biggest football day of the year. :eyes:
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. As I said before, I like to see a report showing HOW many did call off.
I suspect this report of excessive call offs was given off as a excuse by management then if its actually happened. Someone may have called off and people accused him of calling off for the Super Bowl, but then Management took that story and expanded it to show it was NOT their Fault, it was the fault of the Workers. I have seen management do similar acts, even without anyone calling off i.e. no one called off, but management said it was workers who called off that caused the problem NOT bad management.

As to the Super Bowl itself that was at best four hours and given the snow fall I do NOT see any workers calling off given the severity of the snow fall. Workers DO tend to want to do good and handling a record snow fall would be higher then watching the Super bowl (Especially without the Steelers being in the Super Bowl). No, I suspect this accusation of Super Bowl call offs is a creating of management to explain WHY the snow was not removed. The City has more then 60 people to drive the 60 snow trucks. The City needs only 120 Drivers to operate those trucks 24 hours a day (You have to give the drivers SOME TIME OFF for things like eating, sleeping and going to the rest room). If someone calls off sick, you call other drivers to take his place (And that someone had to take your place forces anyone who called off work to justify that not only to his supervisor but the people called in to replace him OR worse told to stay on the Job till another replacement is found). People who work together and cover for each other do NOT put their fellow employees in a bind without good cause (and the Super bowl was NOT a good cause). Studies of WWII soldiers pointed out the number one reason soldiers did NOT desert was NOT fear of being executed, but the fear of leaving their squad mates down. The same with people like snow truck drivers, these people work all year round on various jobs for the City. The depend on each other, they are a team. You do NOT leave your team mates down just to watch a game. I am sorry, this story of snow plow operators calling off to watch the Super Bowl sounds to much like management looking for someone to blame other then themselves (and workers are always the number one choice of management).

As to the Super Bowl itself, the storm was over by Saturday morning. The main roads were able to be traveled on by Saturday morning (I am using the term "Main Roads" to be multi-lane or semi-multi-lane roads like West Liberty Avenue and Fifth/Forbes Avenue). The problem was with the Secondary roads (Fifth and Forbes after they become two way roads as they go east from Oakland) and neighborhood roads. The Secondary Roads were passable by Saturday Afternoon but then the Neighborhood roads needed to be clean. By that time the Trucks had been on the roads for over 24 hours. Driving a truck 12-16 hours a day while that truck is pushing a plow is NOT a job that you can restart just 8 hours later, a 12 hours on, 12 hours off is a better combination (Even that can NOT be done for more then a few days). The Super bowl only started over 36 hours AFTER the snow had stopped (and over 48 hours AFTER the Snow has started). The snow was under control on the main streets and to a degree on the Secondary Streets. More work needed to be done on the Neighborhood Street, but those would take the most time for you were plowing 20-30 inches of snow at one time, unlike the main roads where the snow was removed when it was no more then six inches on the ground. Thus you had to push more snow on more miles of road once the plows turned to the Neighborhood streets. People were complaining about why their streets were NOT clear and someone came up with the Super Bowl as an excuse. I suspect management ran with that excuse, even if there was NOT evidence to support it. It is a good way to shift the blame from management to those lazy workers who refused to work for more then 16 hours in day (and who insist on their "Right" eat and go to the restroom). Come on, we prefer our streets plowed even if the people plowing them are fast asleep at the wheel. Thus it is the workers fault NOT management failure to tell people that the City did NOT have enough trucks nor is it management's fault for not having enough trucks.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Bull on the main roads being clear - there were people stuck
in horrendous traffic jams on Monday because Fifth Avenue, 40th Street Bridge & other city main roads were not cleaned sufficiently and were still covered with rutted ice & snow. Tuesday last week I made the mistake of driving on a main city of Pittsburgh road and it was the only time all weekend my AWD Suzuki fish-tailed. It was still covered in ice & rutted snow. A week and a half later I'm still wasting time & gas in a traffic jam every damn morning on a main Pittsburgh road because they shoved snow piles into one lane on a short section thus taking 2 lanes down to 1. And there were people & even a police car still getting stuck on Shady Ave Wednesday.

Where I work on a main road used by trucks going to warehouses they were stuck on a city of Pittsburgh road because it had been barely plowed the first two days of last week.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. The Saturday after the Storm I travel to Pittsburgh, no problems
The parkway was restricted to 45 mph, and I had some problems on the Boulevard of the Allies as I headed for the Liberty Bridge and Tunnel, but not more then I had faced on US 22 as I went from Johnstown to Pittsburgh. The Liberty tunnels were pitched black (But that is Penndot's Tunnel) but West Liberty Avenue was more then passable. AS I climb Cape May to go to Beechview the streets were narrow do to the Snow on the side of the road, but passable. Maybe because I live in Johnstown, snow on the side of the road I do NOT view as a problem as long as I have one lane to travel in, but I had no problems climbing Cape May and Sebring (Sebring is quite steep). The Streets of Beechview were snow covered but passable. Now I traveled in a Four wheel drive Dakota but other then when I ended up on an unplowed part of one of the streets in Beechview I had no problems. In the unplowed section I had to back out and go further up the road to make my turn do to my inability to go through the unplowed snow but it was more a slight inconvenience than anything severe. Later on I went through Shadycrest area of Beechview to dump a load of Snow, the roads were unplowed but passable, I had no problems on those neighborhood streets, unplowed as they were (I dump my load at the end of a street that is block off from further travel, and then left and again I had no problems). I am sorry, maybe it was because I was in no rush to go anywhere and took my time. Maybe it was the fact I had my truck in four wheel drive. But in either case I had no problems.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. Well good for you - but I also drove the city streets
& heard from others including talk show host Lynn Cullen and there were a lot of Pittsburgh main streets not to mention neighborhood streets that were still in terrible shape well into the next week.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
17. Ravenstahl gets testy about whereabouts
Edited on Wed Feb-17-10 12:34 PM by RamboLiberal
Pittsburgh Mayor Luke Ravenstahl on Tuesday lashed out at reporters who asked for an update on his whereabouts and a council member who balked at extending a snow emergency declaration without his signature.

Mr. Ravenstahl's harsh words came after he swept into a news conference on the death of a Hazelwood man who was waiting for an ambulance during the Feb. 6 snowstorm. That ended six-plus hours during which the mayor's staff would not specify his location, other than to say he was "in town." Talk show hosts and bloggers lit up with speculation about his whereabouts.

-----


The mayor's office confirmed Tuesday that he spent Feb. 5 and 6 at a Seven Springs condominium he rented from its owner, James Scalo. Mr. Scalo's firm, Burns & Scalo Real Estate Services, does not have city contracts and does not appear to have received any recent Urban Redevelopment Authority assistance.

James Scalo made $6,000 in contributions last year to Mr. Ravenstahl's election campaign, as did John Scalo, co-president of the firm, according to disclosures filed with the Allegheny County Elections Division.

The mayor had freely disclosed that he was in the Laurel Highlands celebrating his 30th birthday from the evening of Feb. 5 through the morning of Feb. 7, as was Public Safety Director Michael Huss, adding they were able to perform their duties from there by phone and computer.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10048/1036404-53.stm#ixzz0foWZ8AEa


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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
20. "The call was canceled after paramedics learned that...in too much pain to walk out to them"
"The call was canceled after paramedics learned that Mr. Mitchell was in too much pain to walk out to them."

He was in too much pain to walk to them so they canceled going to him? The Post-Gazette article is horrendous.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10048/1036403-53.stm#ixzz0foDjk0XB
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
24. is this one of those services privatized by the city ?
you know, the ones that cut the size of government and saves localities money :sarcasm:or are they just for profit EMS companies?
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Doesn't matter...
Edited on Wed Feb-17-10 05:29 PM by WriteDown
The snow plow drivers called in sick to watch the Superbowl. Who do they work for? Or how about the mayor that was partying out of town for his 30th birthday? Stick a fork in Pittsburgh, it's done. :(
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
43. What difference does it make where the Mayor is when you're talking about a 911 call? He could have
been next door to the victim and no one would have called him.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #43
48. It's a representation of the city gov't's attitude....
One of the worst snow storms recorded is going to hit and the mayor hightails it out of town?
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #43
54. Because shit rolls downhill
Edited on Thu Feb-18-10 01:43 PM by RamboLiberal
and in the city he is the commander. Equally bad is his emergency services director was out of town with him. No, he's not answering the 911 calls personally, but if a mayor and the emergency director are out of town the rest of the management team and employees get the idea that hey this might not be such a big deal after all the big guys are not here.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
25. Totally unacceptable. You get the stretcher and you get out on
your feet. If you need more help, you call for it.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
26. Google clearly show East Elizabeth and Chaplin way intersects ON THIS BLOCK
Edited on Wed Feb-17-10 05:20 PM by happyslug
The 5100 block of Chaplin Way is between East Elizabeth Street and Courtland Street. The East Elizabeth Street Bridge is a Bridge over the Railroad tracks that goes Parallel 1 1/2 block to the East (And that Block is only four houses wide so we are talking a distance of less then 6 houses wide, Two houses for the houses between Chaplin Way and Lytie Street, two between Lytie and Roma Way and two more between Roma Way and the Railroad tracks). Thus the distance was no more then .2 of a mile (or a 1/5 of a mile, or less then 1056 feet or less then 352 yards.

Now the East Elizabeth Street Bridge looks like it is narrower then East Elizabeth Street, in that you have spaces to park on East Elizabeth Street EXCEPT on the East Elizabeth Street Bridge. The East Elizabeth Street Bridge also appears to climb up and over the Railroad tracks. Chaplin way is an alley way, barely wide enough for one car. Between the Railroad Tracks and PA Route 885 (Second Avenue in Hazelwood) is another short two house half block. The City made a priority clearing main routes such as PA 885 but delayed on Side roads such as East Elizabeth Street.

Please note in the section of Hazelwood this house was located there are three ways to get to it from the outside and all of those routes lead to PA 885. East Elizabeth Street with its Bridge over the railroad tracks, Tecumseh one full long City Block to the North of East Elizabeth Street, but it is an at grade crossing and s foot bridge over those same Railroad Tracks two blocks to the South of East Elizabeth Street at Melancthon Street. Other then those three exit points you are cut off by the Railroad OR the remains of one of the old Coke Works to the North.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
45. This sounds like a bowel infarction or a bowel bursting.. Both have occurred within our family.
It's hard to imagine how painful either one is. And, no, you can't walk.
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