Former Guard Says Demjanjuk Was at Nazi Camp

Source: The New York Times

MUNICH (AP) -- John Demjanjuk served as a guard at a Nazi concentration camp in Bavaria during World War II, a former Soviet soldier who was taken prisoner by the Germans testified at the retired Ohio autoworker's trial Wednesday.

But witness Alex Nagorny, who agreed to serve the Nazis after his capture, raised doubts about the case against Demjanjuk, telling the court the man on trial in Munich state court didn't look like his fellow guard at the Flossenbuerg camp.

Prosecutors allege that, like Nagorny, Demjanjuk agreed to serve the Germans and was trained at the Trawniki SS camp before being sent to work as a camp guard.

Demjanjuk, 89, is accused of serving as a guard at the Sobibor death camp in occupied Poland, and charged as an accessory to the murder of 27,900 Jews there.


Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/02/24/world/AP-EU-Germany-Demjanjuk.html?_r=1

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Another spectacularly misleading headline by the AP...

Still, provides further insight into the paucity of evidence they seem to have against this guy.

The guy is 89 years old. The witnesses are as old or older. Time to give it a rest and let karma sort it out as it always does.

so. My father did not get to see 89 because of bastards like him.

Maybe we should skip the pesky trial, huh? :eyes:

I would have to see the evidence. But, for the sake of argument, can you think of anything worse than being executed for being a nazi scumbag only to have the charges end up being false? I dunno. There had better be some compelling evidence to back up this claim.

Demenjuk is being accused of being one of the Ukrainian Guards used to Guard the outer perimeter of the camp. He is NOT accused of having anything to do with the operation of the camp other then making sure no lone left (and to chase down anyone who escaped). Solibor was a Death Camp NOT a concentration Camp. In a Death Camp the victims came in by train and then dropped off at the camp. In the early years the victims were then trucked to the camp, this had changed by having a spur line built into the camp and thus taken by train directly to the "Delousing Station". As the victims exited the train, some were selected to operate the camp. The rest were told to undress and were sent straight to "Delousing Station". The victims were told to undress and then sent into the "Delousing Station". The Victims were told that it was a shower with chemicals to remove any lice the victims may have on them. The Victims then entered the "Delousing Station" and were hit with gas that killed them. At that point the gas was removed and those victims that had been selected to do Labor then removed the bodies and either burned them or buried them AFTER removing anything valuable the people may have had on their bodies including any Gold Teeth.

In a nut shell that was the operations. Who set up this operation? The SS officers that ran the Camp. Who did the actual work? The victims "saved" by the SS officers to be used to operate the camp. When the camp was closed these Victims were also killed.

Now, the Ukrainian Guards had been recruited from Soviet Soldiers that had become POWs in the early years of the Invasion of Russia. When Recruited were told they would be Guards only. That promise was kept for the SS had found out during their operations in 1941 (Where the SS went around just Shooting any Jews they found in Russia) that the shooting of the Jews had a bad affect on their SS Soldiers that actually were doing the Shooting. To avoid that problem, the camps were set up so that none of the SS Officers or Ukrainian Guards would have anything to do with the actual killing. The system was run by the SS Officers who selected Victims they believed that could be controlled. Except for Solibor (where the SS made the mistake of sending in Soviet Jewish Soldiers) the camps ran almost by themselves. Food would come in for the Officers, the Guards and the Victims selected to help run the camp. The Victims selected to run the camp would cook the food, clear out the "Delousing Station", burn or bury the bodies collect the valuable that was then sent back to Germany. The German SS Officers would check to make sure everything was running right (including checking up on the Victims running the Camps) and if they caught one of the Victims NOT doing his or her job, they would just kill that victim.

The only time of concern was when a new batch of Victims came in, but those were process rapidly (Most Victims died within 30 minutes of entering the camp). 55 Fright cars (the normal fright train used in Germany at that time) at about 40 people per car is only 2200 people to kill and dispose of per day. Disposing of the bodies took the most time but that was done by the Victims selected to operate the camp supervised by the SS Officers. The Ukrainian guards stayed outside the camp UNLESS Ordered by one of the Officers.

Now the Guards were not simple bystanders. They had orders to kill anyone who tried to escape (and in the Case of Ivan the Terrible, brutalized any of the victims they decided to brutalized) so they are NOT lilly white, but to hold they responsible for the Camp is a stretch. The Guards took up the offer of being a Guard more to avoid the near starvation situation the Germans had in their POW camps in the First year of the Russian Invasion (After 1941 the POW camps improved immensity, from hells holes with no or little food to mere terrible with less then food needed, but the prisoners were feed. Demenjuk is believed to have volunteer to be a Guard as the POW camps for Soviet Prisoners were in that second phase. Some such Guards volunteer to fight the Communists, some for the pay and better food. Demenjuk appears to be one of the later. When he volunteered (This is assuming he did for this discussion) he agreed to be a SS Guards for Camps to be set up and run by the SS. No one told him these were death camps, through once at such a camp it would be hard NOT to find that out. The Guards were essential to the Camp, for the Germans had no one else to be the Guards (Before WWII it was common practice to exchange SS soldiers stationed in the Concentration camps with SS soldiers in Waffen SS units but by 1941 that had long ended and the Ukrainians were hired to guard the camps (Both the Concentration and at the Death Camps).

Assuming Demenjuk was such a guard (And I believe he was) what was his exact crime? He did NOT set up or operate the Camp (That was done by the SS Officers and those Victims spared to run the camps) all he did was make sure no one left the camp without permission of one of the SS Officers. He could NOT interact with the prisoners (while permitted in some ways, discouraged for the SS Officers saw that as a way to preserve their power over both the Victims and the Guards). He could NOT leave them escape (If he did he would have been killed, the SS were very strict on that issue). He was stationed in an area of Poland or Russia (Most Death camps were in Poland) he was NOT familiar with i.e. he could NOT just leave even if he could (The punishment for such a desertion was execution) for he did NOT know the area and once he started to speak the locals would determine he was not a local (When I travel to the South side of Pittsburgh and talk to the Ukrainians, Poles and other slavs from Eastern Europe most will tell you a name of a common dish to all of them and then give the Ukrainian, Polish, Russian, Slovaks and other slavic variation of that common dish. I point this out for back in the old country most can understand each other to a degree but once you start to speak just by HOW you say your words the locals will quickly determine you are NOT a local).

Demenjuk was as much as a victim as the people sent to the camp to be killed. He did not have to look to a future where he would be killed (unlike the actual victims) but his choices once at the camp were not much better then the victims themselves. If he deserted he would be executed, if he interfered with the operations of the Camp he would be executed, if he left a prisoner escape he would be executed. On the other hand if he patrolled his position and followed orders he would have a warm place to sleep and food (in addition to pay). Not a good choice and a system set up by the SS as part of the Death Camp system.

One writer wrote during Demenjuk's trial in Israel that it would be better to drop all charges in exchange for Demenjuk's views on how the camps were run. We do not have that view and it would be closer to the fact then anyone else (Most victims died, very few survived till the end of the war). We have the view of some of the Victims who survived. We have the view of some of the SS Officers. We have the paperwork that supported and set up the camps. We have a list of the Victims, but the Guards would have a unique view, almost a third reference point. Demenjuk was a best a bit player in the camps. He was above the actual people in the camp, but it was NOT a large step (and both were under the command of the SS officers in charge of the Camp). Demenjuk would give us a unique view of the Death Camps and having to admit to being part of it and re-living it by speaking of it from his memory would be a better punishment then anything a Judge could impose on him. Lets remember Demenjuk's' options were limited while he was a guard at the camp. Demenjuk was NOT someone who volunteered to be part of a death camp, he only volunteered to be a SS Guard. The SS sent Demenjuk to a Death Camp, Demenjuk had not choice on where he served.

My problem with this case is simple, the people who set it up and ran them are long dead (Many living out a long life). Now that the generation that LEAD Germany during WWII is long dead their Children and Grandchildren want to show that Germans are no longer Racists by going after people who were forced into being part of the Killing Machine. We are going after people who were in the late teens and early 20s. People NOT in any position to make any decision as to how and why of the Death Camps. Worse, given the situation in 1942, we are going after such people who also was facing starvation and in human living conditions (The German POW camps for Soviet POWs). I am sorry, but to go after someone like Demenjuk after ignoring the people who ran, operated and set up the camps is more an insult to the Victims then anything else. In affect we are going after other victims, who were in no position to stop the death camp, for it is to late to go after the people who COULD HAVE STOPPED THE DEATH CAMPS. It was not someone of about age 20 (like Demenjuk) that set up and run the camps. Those were the SS Officers, both in the camp and back home in Germany. Many of these people did suffer punishment in the 1950s and 1960s, but many others escaped all punishment. To "correct" that error by going after someone like Demenjuk is an insult to the Victims who died in those camps and sooner or later we will have to call it quits. Given the age of last possible guards, unless something shows they did more then guard the Camps end such prosecution and lets look forward not backward (Note if something comes up on a guard that shows that he increased the harm to the Victims, was part of the plan and setting up the camps etc I am for going forward on such a person but not a simple guard like Demenjuk).

obvious what the Nazis were, that they'd already killed more than a million soviets, and that it was abundantly clear to those who volunteered to work with the Nazis exactly who they were volunteering to work with.

He made a choice with work with mass-murderers. Deal with it.

:hug:

In fact the German Offensive doctrine emphasized Infantry and armor movement, as opposed to the Western Allies that emphasized Artillery and Air Support. The net difference is less Civilian causalities under the German Doctrine. This doctrine also meant the Western Allies preferred big planes that carried a lot of bombs (and when dropped one of the bombs would hit the target while most would miss and hit civilians) as opposed to Dive Bombers where the pilots made sure their one bomb hit the target.

As to being Anti-Semitic, that was know to all, but that had been a characteristic of Europe since at least the time of Martin Luther and had NEVER before ended up in mass murder (Massive discrimination prior to WWII but no mass murder). Furthermore you had the residue of the WWI English propaganda reports of "Bayoneting Belgium Babies" i.e. that the Germans were using babies in Belgium for Bayonet training. No truth to these reports, but extensive during WWI determined by Congressional hearings in the early 1930s to be completely false. Given that background most people dismissed the reports of the Death Camps as propaganda till the Russian freed one in 1944 AND even that was dismissed as Soviet Propaganda till Dachau in Germany was liberated by US Troops in 1945 (Dachau was the only Death Camp in Germany only, the rest were in Poland, Please note Dachau had been a concentration camp since the mid 1930s, its Death Camp part was quite small, unlike the true death camps that were just large killing factories). Thus not only the full extent of the Holocaust was unknown till 1945, but the idea of such mass murder had also been dismissed before 1945.

My point to assume a young 20 something soldier starving, ill-clothed and ill-sheltered in a POW camp would know the extent of the Mass Murder is a huge step. Most Americans of the time period (We are talking pre-1945) did not know of it for reports of the mass murder had been routinely dismissed as just anti-German propaganda. Now some of the people in the higher echelon of the US Government had hints of the extent, but even they were shocked when the true extent came out. As to a private in a POW camp, he prob ally never even heard of it.

By all accounts, Demenjuk took up an offer given to Soviet Soldiers held in POW Camps run by the Germans, to join the SS as a axillary Guard. No one claims Demenjuk KNEW what he was agreeing to do when he volunteered AND both sides admit that once he was at the camp he could NOT quit. The Defense says that is enough to show any lack of intention on the part of Demenjuk to participate is such crimes. You have to show Demenjuk did something more then show up and did what he was told to do by others, when those others had the power of life and death over him.

The Prosecution, on the other hand, has adopted a broader definition of War Criminal, basically he was at the camp and that all that is needed to be proved. In this view Demenjuk could have been a prisoner forced to be at the camp and that still makes him a war criminal. Your view that by 1942 people knew what the Nazis were is unsupported in the historical record. No findings of war crimes would found till AFTER the Russian Offensive that pushed back the Germans from the suburbs of Moscow in December 1941 (and even these reports were dismissed as propaganda or just the acts of a few bad people). In fact the German troops that invaded France in 1940 acted much better then their fathers had done in 1914 (Poland was a different story). In fact when the Germans invaded Yugoslavia in the Spring of 1941, the Germans released almost all of the Yugoslavia Soldiers they took as POWs in that campaign (Yes, just released them, more to free German Troops for the upcoming invasion of Russia in June 1941 then any other reason, but the POWs had been treated fairly unlike the situation in the POW camps for captured Soviet Soldiers from June 1941-December 1941).

Yes, it is common knowledge today of the extent of the Nazi Crimes, but those were NOT known during the war itself. The worse people thought was an occasional murder of a Jew and massive discrimination but nothing that would not see 99% of the Jews surviving the war. That had been the norm for almost 1000 years throughout Europe when it came to ant-Semitic movements. No one thought anyone would set up a program for mass extermination (and in the worse case in pre-Hitler 20the Century Europe, the Turks when it came to the Armenians just used rifle fire and other direct actions, which the SS found in 1941 to be a less effective way to kill Jews, rather then set up something like the Death Camps (In fact when it came to direct operations Demenjuk would have been in a better position to help the victims simply by NOT shooting them, an option the SS Deliberately denied to the Guards in how the camps were set up).

Back to my point, to assume a young 20 something man in a German POW Camp knew anything of the Death Camps is beyond reason. Demenjuk agreed to be a guard at some sort of camp to hold people, but what the camp did with those people was NOT told to him or any of the other Guards. None of the Guards were in a position to stop the operation of the Death Camps nor where any of them essential to its operation (Except as guards to keep the victims in the camp). To punish someone like Demenjuk is like burning down one of the Buildings of the Death Camp, if the burning is intended to "Punished" that building for being part of the Camp. Such an act would be stupid for the Building did NO positive act to keep the camp running, but it was an essential part of the camp, to store the food, the loot, to house the guards and the victims spared immediate death and we may even include the building where the actual deaths occurred. These were all essential for operation of the Death Camp, but none of them had anything to do with setting up the death camp, getting the victims to the camps, or even killing the victims. The same with the Ukrainian guards, they were part of the camp, but had nothing to do with setting up the death camp, getting the victims to the camps, or even killing the victims. To go after someone like Demenjuk is like going after one of the building of the Death Camps, symbolic more then any real justice for real justice meant going after the people who plan, set the victims to, and operated the Camps (and most of those people died of natural causes in their own bed years ago).

People talk. In my opinion, ignorance of what was occurring was not possible to any guard (or for that matter, administrative) personnel of any of the death camps. I am withholding judgment on the labor camps (I'm sure that you are aware that there were at least these two types of camps within the physical constraints) and the degree of knowledge of their personnel as to what was happening within the death camps, yet People talk.... People talk, always have, always will. While not as literate as you, to me, it's like saying in fifty years as an American I had no knowledge that our government/military/CIA were involved in torturing people.

By the time anyone arrived at the camp it was to late, and that was designed into the System. The SS Officers knew what they were going into, but they made an effort NOT to inform anyone else. Reports even reached the Jews in the Ghettos, but were dismissed and the Jews were sent (Warsaw may have been an exception, and thus the Warsaw Ghetto upraising but that is a different story).

The problem was NOT that people talk, and they will, but that by the time people could talk about the camp, they were already in the camp. As a guard you did not get leave, you were just moved someplace else, especially if the Germans thought your home was behind Soviet Lines. Thus by the time he had a chance to talk to anyone about the assignment he was already in the camp and given how the camp was run to late for him to object. Up till them he knew he was gong to guard Jews in some sort of Camp, but that was all. He was NOT given any training on how the camp ran AND even the internal Guards of the Camp, who were armed AND assigned to kill Jews who were upsetting the system, were Jews picked for that job by the SS Officers. Yes, people talk, but the extent of the what was going on in the Death Camp was beyond they understanding and background.

in so little time? but seriously, if it is the same guy, he should go to prison. the fact he's so old IS an injustice - but not to him.