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bnymellon sucks Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 01:33 PM
Original message
Jewish group to probe Holocaust soap claim
Source: CNEWS Canada

MONTREAL — B’nai Brith Canada says it’s investigating a report that a Montreal store owner is selling Nazi-era soap purportedly made from Holocaust victims.

The organization says it sent someone to the shop to look at the item in question.

A CBC report about the beige bar of soap from 1940 with a swastika is causing a stir among Jewish groups who say selling the object is offensive.

At best, Jewish community groups say it belongs in a museum to be used as an educational tool.



Read more: http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2010/03/26/13369551-cp.html
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zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wondering.... If Nazis hated Jews, why would they want to wash with soap made from them?
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Why would they want lampshades made from the skin of Jews?
Who can understand minds like that? Reason doesn't apply to such monsters.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Nazis were just as human as you or I or Einstein or Pol Pot or The Pope or Will Farrel.
And there's the problem: When you're dealing with atrocities of this magnitude, with so many people involved, it's easy to believe that they were all monsters, in some way inherently different than us. Broken, murderous, criminally-insane and homicidal at best.

But is that really a fair assessment and does that assessment actually protect us from similar events in the future or does it cause marginalization of the reality that even in America, without vigilance, we could wind up doing the same things? (HINT: Historically, we have actually done things has bad to Native Americans as the Nazis did to their death camp inmates- the tools were different but the intent the same)

Two powerful books on the topic, each proposing an entirely opposite view of how the German population came to be recruited into the Nazi movement and how those people could commit such horrific acts:

Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen
A Nation on Trial: The Goldhagen Thesis and Historical Truth by Norman G. Finkelstein & Ruth B Birn

Both will be at your local library and certainly at any college library

PB
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thank you. eom
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. I have no argument with saying that the majority of the German people were the same as the rest of u
The instigators of the horror and it worst actors, such as those who made lampshades from the skin of their Jewish victims, were another matter.

The terrible thing about such historical horrors is that the normal mass of the populace goes along with what the monsters behind it create. The same applies to the horrors committed by other nations, including the US.
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DRex Donating Member (531 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. I thought like that too...
Until I read "Machete Season" by Jean Hatzfeld, about the genocide in Rwanda. In this case it was clearly the everyday, common man and woman who committed the most depraved atrocities possible upon their own neighbours and even friends. And anyone can be forced to do things under duress, but hearing the words of the killers in this book is astounding, revealing what was in their heart and minds at the time.

The conclusion is a terrifying one, that we are all capable of such things. Somewhere deep inside lies that potential, and if the conditions were right, we could succumb to it.

Incidentally, my grandfather has a piece of Nazi memorabilia at his house, a kind of ladle for soup. It has a swastika on the backside of the handle, and it is a frightful thing to behold, even if it is just a spoon. He was in and out of WWII combat zones, he is a pianist and was brought to the lines to entertain the troops. Unrelated, perhaps, but interesting nonetheless.
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Alhena Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Human being = defective species
capable of good and noble acts, but fundamentally defective nonetheless.

I can't reconcile the holocaust with any other conclusion.
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teknomanzer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. The holocaust was not some abberation of human behavior...
Human beings have been slaughtering each other as far back as anyone can remember. What made the holocaust so shocking in my opinion was the efficiency of the killing -- the application of industrial technology used to create an assembly line style murder factory.

All animals are capable of destruction and killing. I've even heard that chimps make war with other chimps. They only thing they lack is the guns and bombs. The defect you are hinting at is probably the very thing that makes us human in the first place -- our intellectual capacity.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. It depends on what we define the concept of "human" to be.
Yeah, we're all the same species.

We are most definitively NOT the same group.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. bravo. well said.
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Mike K Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. If a Fourth Reich were to arise -
- in America today there would be no shortage of the kind of sadistic militants who originated and implemented the Pogrom in Hitler Germany and they would quickly transform this nation into a brutal totalitarian police state. Is it hard to imagine such authoritarian degenerates as Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly in Gestapo regalia, complete with daggers and crops?

I seriously believe Glenn Beck has onanistic fantasies about just such a prospect.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. This interesting article from The Straight Dope migth shed some light on the...
...whole human skin lampshades/human soap thing: HERE

It is probably the best analysis of the very politically-charged subject I've seen.

While human-skin lampshades or human-fat soap are really, really disgusting concepts I think it tends to sensationally distract away from the many horrific (and far less disputable) things the Nazis did to their prisoner/slaves while alive. What I don't like about dubious stories of this nature is that when they turn out to maybe not have as much a ring of truth to them it ever-so-slightly diminishes the actual, uncontroversial facts of the horrific acts of the time.

PB
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Exactly!
While it makes for disturbing press I think the important thing to keep in mind is the numbers of people killed in the holocaust and that these people were real human beings. The earlier cited books are excellent but I would add another which talks about the lead up to the holocaust before they moved towards a more mechanized genocide.

Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the final solution in Poland
Christopher R. Browning
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SnakeEyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. Soap from victims
I thought this was one of the few things that didn't actually occur... and that at most it was a rumor that Nazi's told victims to scare them.
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FreedomForAll159 Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Me Too
Just like the Lampshades :wtf:
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. Soap occurred, but not in quantity.
Tests were run, but it turns out that starving people tends to deprive them of fat, the essential biological ingredient. So, production didn't make sense.
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
9. I feel sick. n/t
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
11. Even if it's not made from humans, selling soap with a swatika is offensive
enough...what a tool that shopowner is.
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Mike K Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. A close friend of my father's -
Edited on Fri Mar-26-10 05:38 PM by Mike K
- who fought in Europe showed us a belt with a silver-plated buckle bearing a Swastika and the words, "Gott Mit Uns," which translates as, God is With Us. He took the belt from the body of a dead German officer. The belt had an empty holster on it as some other GI had already taken the Luger or P-38 it contained.

I have also seen such things as Swastika armbands and flags for sale as souvenirs, along with German "Fritz" helmets, Third Reich emblems, Hitler Youth daggers, SS officers' garrison caps, and other such items. Inasmuch as as the soap from human fat propaganda has been effectively debunked I see no reason why a bar of the infamously misrepresented soap should not be available as an historical souvenir. I wouldn't care to own it but I'm sure there are WW-II memorabilia collectors who would.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
15. Ann Coulter types would say this is just free speech.
And selling soap made from humans is some kind of sacred constitutional right.
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Mike K Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
17. In spite of all the impressive "evidence" -
- the charge that the Germans manufactured soap from human beings is a falsehood, as Holocaust historians are now belatedly acknowledging. The RIF soap bar initials that supposedly stood for Pure Jewish Fat actually indicated nothing more sinister than Reich Center for Industrial Fat Provisioning (Reichsstelle fr Industrielle Fettversorgung), a German agency responsible for wartime production and distribution of soap and washing products. RIF soap was a poor quality substitute that contained no fat at all, human or otherwise.

Shortly after the war the public prosecutor's office of Flensburg, Germany, began legal proceedings against Dr. Rudolf Spanner for his alleged role in producing human soap at the Danzig Institute, but after a preliminary investigation the charge was quietly dropped. In a January 1968 letter, the office stated that its inquiry had determined that no soap from human corpses was made at the Danzig Institute during the war.

More recently, Jewish historian Walter Laqueur, "denied established history," by acknowledging in his 1980 book, The Terrible Secret, that the human soap story has no basis in reality. Gitta Sereny, another Jewish historian, noted in her book, Into That Darkness, "The universally accepted story that the corpses were used to make soap and fertilizer is finally refuted by the generally reliable Ludwigsburg Central Authority for Investigation into Nazi Crimes."

Deborah Lipstadt, a professor of modern Jewish history, similarly rewrote history when she confirmed in 1981, "The fact is that the Nazis never used the bodies of Jews, or for that matter anyone else, for the production of soap."

In April 1990, professor Yehuda Bauer of Israel's Hebrew University, regarded as a leading Holocaust historian, as well as Shmuel Krakowski, archives director of Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center, confirmed that the human soap story is not true. "Camp inmates were prepared to believe any horror stories about their persecutors," Bauer said.

In fact, blame for the soap story lies rather with individuals such as Simon Wiesenthal and Stephen Wise, organizations like the World Jewish Congress, and the victorious Allied powers, none of whom has ever apologized for promoting this falsehood.

Why did Bauer and Krakowski decide that this was the appropriate time to officially abandon the soap story? Krakowski himself hints that a large part of the motivation for this tactical retreat has been to avoid aiding the Holocaust revisionists. In the face of the growing Revisionist challenge, easily demonstrable falsehoods like the soap story have become dangerous embarrassments because they raise doubts about the entire Holocaust history. As Krakowski put it, "Historians have concluded that soap was not made from human fat. When so many people deny the Holocaust ever happened, why give them something to use against the truth?"

The bad faith of those making this calculated and belated concession to truth is shown by their failure to note that the soap myth was authoritatively confirmed at Nuremberg, and by their unwillingness to deal with the implications of that confirmation for the credibility of the Tribunal and other supposedly trustworthy authorities in establishing other, more fundamental aspects of the Holocaust story.

The striking contrast between the prompt postwar disavowal by the British government of the infamous human soap lie of the First World War, and the way in which a similarly baseless propaganda story from the Second World War was officially endorsed by the victorious Allied powers and then authoritatively maintained for so many years not only points up the dispiriting lack of integrity on the part of so many Western historians, but underscores the general decline in Western ethical standards during this century.

The human soap story demonstrates anew the tremendous impact that a wartime rumor, no matter how fantastic, can have once it has taken hold, particularly when it is disseminated as a propaganda lie by influential individuals and powerful organizations. That so many intelligent and otherwise thoughtful people could ever have seriously believed that the Germans distributed bars of soap brazenly labeled with letters indicating that they were manufactured from Jewish corpses shows how readily even the most absurd Holocaust fables can be -- and are -- accepted as fact.

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CrawlingChaos Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-10 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
21. Even the link calls the soap story a "myth"
This is not newsworthy, but seeing it will reinforce the myth in many people's minds.


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Old Troop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-10 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
23. The Victims Were Dead
The victims were dead when they were used for lampshades or
soap. Far more horrifying were the "medical"
experiments on twins, mentally disabled and gay prisoners.
These were accomplished by supposedly educated and
cosmopolitan doctors.
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-10 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
24. Jewish shop owner defends decision to sell possible Holocaust-era soap
Jewish shop owner defends decision to sell possible Holocaust-era soap
Fri Mar 26, 6:22 PM

By Sidhartha Banerjee, The Canadian Press

MONTREAL - Abraham Botines will be the first to tell you he has no idea if a bar of swastika-engraved soap he owns from the Nazi era is really made of human remains.

But the owner of an eclectic curiosity shop in a trendy Montreal neighbourhood makes no apologies about wanting to sell the item - a rarity that has caused a mini-storm in the Jewish community.

Botines, a Spanish-born Jew who has operated the quirky boutique since 1967, said Friday that no one in his family wants the soap or other controversial war-era items.

So the feisty store owner has decided, given his advanced age and weakening health, that it is time to sell the soap that he bought at top dollar from a retired Canadian soldier.

"I'm 73 and I was collecting things from the Holocaust and from World War 2 because I belong to that period," Botines said in an interview Friday in the cluttered shop.

"In my lifetime I got a lot of curiosity items - that is, things that are hard to find ... and my things, my children, they don't have any interest."

But Botines is adamant he's selling a collectible item and not hateful ideology.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100326/national/nazi_soap
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
25. Montreal Jew sells concentration camp soap
Abraham Botines, owner of World War II collectibles shop, under fire for selling bars of soap made in 1940 Nazi death camps. Police asked to probe whether soaps made from fat of Shoah victims
Roni Rachmani
Published: 03.28.10, 15:07 / Israel Jewish Scene

Abraham Botines, 73, is the owner of a small antiques shop in Montreal, and has recently added to his list of collectibles soap made in the concentration camps in Poland.

Botines, a Spanish-born Jew, sells items from World War II, including Nazi soldiers' former belongings. His recent decision to sell soap from the concentration camps has evoked the anger of many members of Montreal's Jewish community.

The shop owner bought the soap, which were manufactured in 1940, from a Canadian citizen who served in the Second World War. Each bar of soap costs at around $300.

Botines says he is not selling the items to promote Nazi propaganda, but to preserve the memory of the Holocaust. He also says he did not know that the Nazis used to manufacture soap out of the fat of their Jewish victims.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3869063,00.html
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
26. Ew.
Edited on Mon Mar-29-10 09:34 AM by BlueIris
Whether the soap is "authentic" or not, I find it horrifying that someone would try to make a profit off of anything purportedly made by Nazis. And profits aside, imagine (or don't) the kind of customers he would have to deal with...
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
27. that is so disgusting
monsters
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