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laststeamtrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:24 PM
Original message
U.S. contractors failed to train Afghan police to adjust AK-47 sights
Source: McClatchy Newspapers

U.S. contractors failed to train Afghan police to adjust AK-47 sights
By David Goldstein, McClatchy Newspapers Thu Apr 15, 7:47 pm ET

WASHINGTON — For several years, Afghan police recruits under the tutelage of private U.S. government contractors couldn't understand why their marksmanship never improved.

The answer became clear earlier this year. Italian contractors also helping to train Afghan volunteers showed them that the sights on their AK-47s and M-16s had never been adjusted.

"We're paying somebody to teach these people to shoot these weapons, and nobody ever bothered to check their sites?" Democratic Sen. Claire McCaskill of Missouri said, after relating that story at a hearing Thursday.

To McCaskill, who chaired the hearing of the Senate Contracting Oversight panel, it illustrated why the U.S. has spent more than $6 billion on private contractors, but the police-training program remains rife with problems.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20100415/wl_mcclatchy/3478920
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. The real reason “No Known Cure For The AK-47 Disease”
“No Known Cure For The AK-47 Disease”
April 12, 2010: American and NATO trainers are frustrated at their inability to train Afghans to shoot accurately. The Afghan soldiers and police, despite the constant example of superior marksmanship on the part of foreign troops, persist in pointing their weapons, instead of aiming them. Meanwhile, Afghan traditionalists are trying to change the way the Taliban fight. This can be seen by the increase in the use of sniping by the Taliban. In the two years, NATO units in southern Afghanistan estimate there has been a sharp (over 30 percent) percent increase in sniping incidents. This is not seen as a major danger. NATO troops wear protective bests and helmets that can stop bullets fired at long range, making it very frustrating for the Taliban shooters trying to hit a distant target in a vulnerable spot. And there was not a lot of sniping by the Taliban to begin with.

* * * * * * * * * * *

Then some of the young guys remembered grandpa decrying the decline in marksmanship years ago. Back before the Russians showed up, in the 1980s, the best an Afghan could hope to have was a World War II, or World War I, era bolt action rifle. These weapons were eclipsed in the 1980s by full automatic AK-47s and the RPG rocket launcher. The young guys took to the AK, and the thrill of emptying a 30 round magazine on full automatic. Not bad for a brief firefight, and suddenly hardly anyone, except a few old timers, wanted to use the old bolt action rifle, or learn how to hit anything with single shots.

* * * * * * * * * * *

During the 1980s, Saudi Arabia spent billions of dollars to arm Afghans with all the AK-47s and ammo they could use, and they used lots of it. But rarely for target practice. Compared to bolt-action rifles like the British Lee-Enfield, the AK-47 was less accurate when one shot at a time was fired. The old timers, or a few young traditionalists, kept their Lee-Enfields, and made themselves useful picking off Russian soldiers at long distances, on those rare occasions where that was needed. A few Afghans noted that the AK-47, fired one shot at a time, was pretty accurate out to about 300 meters. But the Russians had more firepower, and it was rarely prudent to stay too close to them for too long. So "spray and pray" (going full automatic all the time) became the new Afghan warrior tradition.

* * * * * * * * * * *

NATO trainers get nowhere by mentioning the old Afghan warrior tradition of sharpshooting. The lack of discipline, and literacy, among so many Afghan recruits leaves less time for weapons training anyway. Meanwhile, the allure of "spray and pray" is too strong for a generation that has access to automatic weapons, and all the ammo they can carry.
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. It should be noted that the full-auto setting on the M16
was removed long ago for similar reasons. Now they are single shot and 3-round burst only.
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j420norcal Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. Trying to get more accuracy out of an AK-47
Is like milking an ant. Sights be damned.
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Hulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-15-10 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. Minor detail...as long as they made noise...
What a bunch of ass hats.
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
5. I have a hard time taking this story seriously
"We're paying somebody to teach these people to shoot these weapons, and nobody ever bothered to check their sites?"

I am sure McCaskill said "sights," not "sites." Doesn't McClatchy have editors anymore?
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
6. They aren't very accurate, anyway.
You can build a fairly good rifle based on that action, but it still isn't exactly a sharpshooters dream.

I don't think anyone wants to spend the money to accuratize a few thousand field-grade weapons, it might be more cost-effective to buy them a more accurate one to begin with.

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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I took rifle marksmanship in college ROTC.
Waay before we actually shot, we learned how to accurately adjust our sights. When we began to shoot, we readjusted our sights. Getting (M16 then) fairly accurate was vital. After the barrel heated up...readjust. Of course, this was not "outsourced." It was from a tough old rooster with a Command Sargent Major insignia. footnote...I still did not sign the papers, I grew up an Army brat..I knew better. I enjoyed target practice, at paper..
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. The thing is, they don't even AIM the fucking things...
Afghani warriors like the old-fashioned "shoot from the hip" marksmanship technique, where you just put the selector switch on the Rock and Roll position, point the muzzle in the general direction of the bad guys, hold the trigger in and kinda wave the end of the barrel around a little until the loud noises stop.

If they'd just get even a halfass sight picture the quality of their marksmanship would go up by several orders of magnitude overnight.
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Lagomorph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-10 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. Russian and East European ammo...
...is notorious for it's inconsistency. Powder quality was inconsistent. You put 4 MOA ammo in a 4 MOA rifle and you wold be hard put to hit a paper plate at 100 meters.

That was also true of tank rounds and why we could hit Iraqi tanks over a mile beyond their effective range. We produce very good quality ammo for our troops, if you ignore the whole "too light and small to do any damage" problem.

The again, sometimes you'd get a a batch that somehow wound up to specification, or even better, matched the rifle and you're knocking empty shotgun shells off of the berm at 100 meters.

In the Soviet days, the rifles sites were set at the factory and Soviet troops weren't allowed to touch them. That has followed with current training. You adjust the point of aim, rather that the rifles sights. Their front sights weren't even adjustable. There is a tool that armorers carried that resembles a C-Clamp And pushes the site left and right, but there was no screw to turn.

American rifles could be screw adjusted with a round of ammo and the method was taught in basic training. The rear sight is adjustable in both horizontal and vertical directions and the front sight is adjustable for vertical, as well.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
8. All they have to do is "pray & spray",
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
9. reviving the "gang that couldn't shoot straight".
Edited on Fri Apr-16-10 10:44 AM by Javaman
:banghead:

I mean, honestly, come on, have things fallen this low to where trainers didn't even show people how to use a sight on a rifle?

SGT: here is your weapon. There are many like it, but this one is yours.

Afghan Cop: That's nice but how to I fire it?

SGT: This is your rifle this is you gun! (yanks on crotch)

Afghan Cop: are you coming on to me?

SGT: What is your major malfunction, numb nuts?

Afghan Cop: Sigh, can you show me how to load it?

SGT: didn't your mommy and daddy give you enough attention?

Afghan Cop: Never mind (walks away)

SGT: God has a hard-on for...um...Afghan Cops.

(my apologies to Stanley Kubrick and Full Metal Jacket)
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hardtravelin Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
10. I just returned from Afghanistan.
Edited on Fri Apr-16-10 11:52 AM by hardtravelin
My mission was training marksmanship to the ANA. I wouldn't put this solely on the instructors. They (the Afghans) are very hard to train and they all seem to come to training with some terrible habits.

Those with any previous experience often point the rifle without attempting to use the sights, despite any instruction. Adding to the problem is the limited training time allotted.

I think we are making ground, but there is no "culture" of marksmanship in Afghanistan.

Additionally, the ANA now uses the M16A2, not the AK-47. You do see a lot of AK's in the hands of the ANP (police) as you move through the country, however.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. There is however a "culture" of deceit and criminality
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hardtravelin Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Unfortunately, you are correct
It's at every level. Parts&equipment are frequently hoarded and stolen. It's a Herculean effort to convince ANA NCO's and Officers that spending time on training is in their own best interest.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
12. Given the long record of unintended consequences in Afghanistan,
maybe it isn't such a good idea to improve their marksmanship?
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classysassy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
14. Hello tea baggers
why aren't you protesting the war profiteers?
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pinniped Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
16. Should've done like the Dirty Dozen and issued them wooden guns.
Edited on Fri Apr-16-10 11:06 PM by pinniped
.
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Alamuti Lotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-10 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
17. Ladies and gentlemen, meet the only Afghans on record who don't know how to fire an AK47
How the fuck did they find those people, anyway? I believe only al-Yaman has more guns-per-capita than Afghanistan.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-10 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
19. Durability, not accuracy, is the legacy of the AK.
Edited on Sat Apr-17-10 08:07 AM by TexasObserver
They should have been taught how to sight their scopes, but I'm not sure it matters from a practical standpoint. That would have probably been an extra $200 million, so be glad the contractors didn't do that. Besides, it's only a matter of time until the trained Afghans are shooting at Americans, so that's a silver lining to this dark cloud.
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