Engineers will not use hair to soak Gulf oil spill

Source: The Associated Press



Read more: http://www.desdemonadespair.net/2010/05/engineers-will-not-use-hair-to-soak.html

Do I know that as a fact? Not exactly....feels truthy enough for me though

Which, under US SOP, means it's ipso facto better. While it is a matter of empirical fact whether or not the commercial booms work better, we should also note that somebody is making a profit from the disaster. We can learn something about our system from this.

hair, hay...everything we've got! Arguing over which is best seems petty at this point. Get 'em all in there!

For instance -- if the hair booms soak up water along with the oil and ultimately sink so that they are unrecoverable, does that help the situation?

Let's not just throw everything at this problem and hope that something sticks.

What's being done now is NOT adequate, is NOT right, is NOT working. Using more wrong techniques will not improve the situation.



TG

but what will (especially if used to surround the marshes and wetlands in shallow water) is straw and hay. They should be constructing walls of the stuff to prevent the oil from moving inland through the marshes. Kevin Costner and his brother's invention is being tested now. They have 6 centrifuge machines that can separate the oil and return 97% pure back into the ocean.

... on that centrifuge? That sounds interesting.

--------------------------

machine shops use them extensively to seperate stray "way lube" oils from coolant. It's "tried and true", efficient, and cheap.

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FOOLS!!

:kick:

I wish they would do a video of a "hair boom" in action in the Gulf. Why have the supporters of hair booms not done this already? Matters of Trust has shown people how to make them, but WHERE is the video showing them actually working? At least the "straw guys" provide a demo.

Hair booms do not work because they get soggy and sink. This is not rocket science. But some people actually need to see that that is true!

One thing this booming hair boom effort has shown that IS valuable:

It shows that people DO care--it's a sincere grassroots expression of concern, even more poignant since it's useless. It represents a pulling together of people around the country, a statement about how concerned people really do feel. Huge, impressive numbers responded to the call.

To people who DID send hair--it's going to take MORE than just a few hairs you could spare anyway to make any difference in this ongoing disaster.

Now if we could mobilize this level of concern in a way that WOULD help...:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

they cannot sink but can absorb oil. there is nothing even attempting to stop the oil from washing up. why not put it to some use, even if the attempt is half-assed, it's better than nothing.

You are talking about hundreds of miles of coastline, a LOT of which is marshland, not beaches.

But OK, on beaches--WHO is going to monitor your hair devices nonstop, (at least daily when the tides go in and out)? Who will replace them and take the used ones away to be incinerated? Who's going to do this all the time--for how many days, months, or even years? What about the sea creatures who get caught in the nylon ropes where booms are left on beaches and the tide comes in and washes them back? It's just not practical. It would be better to try to remove the oil and tarballs with suction devices.

I don't know who you are, but your defeatists attitude certainly seems to be the same type our government has in regards to this.

While the defeatists are wringing their hands, I am reminded of a story I was told by an old war veteran in Poland. He was on a long rant, and told me how Warsaw was rebuilt post WWII. Nobody had a job, nobody had a house, the buses and the trains were all blown up, water came from the river in a bucket, and food was whatever the country folk brought into town on the weekend. It was cleaned up by hand, one brick at a time, by people who had no job because all the factories and shops were leveled too.

When the oil hits the shore, it will be up to the locals who live there to clean up the mess, using whatever they can to sop up the oil so they can rake it up into a pile and set it on fire. You've seen the pictures of New Orleans after Katrina, piles of rubble waiting for someone to do something. It will be no different on the coast.

I'm all about supporting what's proven to be effective. There are 4 marine scientists in my family--I have some idea what the challenges are.

Well OK, come up with a cleanup idea that IS practical for the unemployed to do! Cleaning up oil is hazardous work though. Not for the average. And it's certainly not going to help to have armies of people no matter how well-intentioned, putting hair along beaches. Scientists laugh at this idea. But you go ahead, mobilize and find out. Don't let me stop ya.:)

I'd like to see some energy directed to more practical ideas.

suddenly we're out of hazmat suits? You can buy the damn things at a army navy store. Rubber boots, gloves and resipiratiors, all available there. So the next thing you will tell me is that that is not practical because it's hot. I think that you would be surprised to see how many Americans are willing to sweat for a paycheck. I know many that already do.

to deal with hazardous materials can go. Great if they are actually paid, because then they'll stick with it longer. But I don't think the process of cleanup will involve much mopping with hair. I hope they'll be given some better tools than that.

I'm sure he'd have more applicants than needed. Hell organize it through FEMA. People could be employed and on their way down there in days.

Oh, and BP foots the bill!

In contrast to the individual who knows scientists, all we know is that it's our livelihood, our property values, our communities, our friends' businesses.

Every community along the Gulf is conducting training each week about how to deal with the oil, hazardous materials, and the sessions are all full.

We're still here after a hurricane when the TV cameras are turned off and the reporters go back to their air conditioned studios. We'll still be here when the scientists go back to their labs in their University towns away from the devastation.

The communities along the Gulf have already been volunteering--cleaning up all the human trash off the beaches so that it won't be a place for the oil.

Our local small animal veterinarians are taking the training for handling animals. The same ones who used to volunteer to treat beached dolphins. Perhaps they won't be as good as the university based scientists, but I think they have a fair commitment to working in this community, since they've done it in the past.

:eyes: this isn't an us vs them situation. I'm sure that there are many capable people on the Gulf who will help with cleanup. Not the point.

Why disparage scientists? How does that help anything? SOME scientists work for everything you care about, y'know. I'm just saying that I understand the scope of the problem from a marine scientist perspective and I think you will find that this cleanup will overwhelm all the best efforts. That does NOT mean people should not do everything possible to help. I know that people like you WILL give it their best. Something is better than nothing in this for sure, but it will be a long struggle, and the most effective methods may not be straw and hair. OK? Sheesh.

I said the hair boom idea, while not useful, indicates the willingness of people around the country to help. Which is a GOOD thing. But it's going to take a lot more than sending hair, if people really want to help. And a lot of the damaging effects may not show up for awhile--it took 3 years for the environment to crash in Alaska. The Gulf disaster is going to take a long time to heal. You may need reinforcements.

I am more supportive and with you in spirit than you can really imagine. I know exactly how you feel
about the situation of wanting to protect your livelihood and community. Have been in the same boat for different reasons. Too long a story. But understand that I know what you are going through and the last thing I would want to do is discourage anybody from doing the best they can with this. So I wouldn't bother with hair and straw, is my point--OK?

Capping the well is #1. That is #1.

Please stay cool and know that many around the country really are sincerely behind your efforts. :grouphug:

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prices, or bailouts, or all of the above. It's really not a matter of you local folks vs the rest of us. It' s OUR country this damn corporation has damaged. And for what? A lousy 2% of "our" oil? Offshore drilling ain't worth the risk...
A lot of non Gulf people came and helped rebuild after Katrina. Don't judge by the turned off and leaving TV cameras. Heck they leave as soon as the next headline comes along. Communities take way longer to rebuild than the attention span of Network news. We will help after this disaster as well...

I'm sure it's hard not to get defensive or discouraged, but

we are all Gulf coasters now.

"we are all Gulf coasters now..."

Right. This is a disaster for the whole country, in one way or the other. And some of us can even
empathize...maybe especially those who live on the coast can feel the pain. At a deep level.

People round the country are starting to get the picture. Many people have to see it in pictures. They can't imagine it. They will see it soon enough.

When I read the endless threads where the disaster in the Gulf seems only like another great reason to trash Obama, it doesn't feel much like people are even interested in the Gulf Coast other than as a rationale for spewing out their own political bile.

I feel the same way when I read the threads that seem gleeful about this disaster because it gives some a chance to spout off their usual anti-corporate, anti-Congress, anti-any elected official anger. It doesn't seem like they recognize that this is happening in real time to real people.

I've been lectured by DUers from Arizona about how hay is unavailable--it's within 50 miles of the coast--how it will use up all the hay, which I guess would be terrible for the wealthy horse owners who might have to pay more.

I've been lectured by DUers recently on why rebuilding anything in New Orleans is a waste of taxpayer money. And that it simply was built in the wrong place, too bad. Overlooking of course that the port of NOLA was quite helpful in building the economy of the central part of the nation.

I've been told by DUers that anyone who works in the oil industry deserves to lose their livelihood because they're involved in monstrous evil.

What I haven't read is DUers that say, as you have, "We'll be there to help."

What I also haven't read is DUers calling for everyone to conserve energy, immediately, tomorrow. Which is something that could potentially save us up to 50% of our energy expenditures.

But I do sincerely appreciate your concern and again, I'm sure I can speak for many of my friends and community in saying, "Thank you."

trial... though this seems a lot more daunting that rebuilding after Katrina. But things looked pretty hopeless after that one...

Courage, and patience,

Your neighbors




(And just so you don't think we're just whistling Dixie:

<http://www.clintonfoundation.com/what-we-do/clinton-global-initiative/i/broadmoor-redevelopment-plan>

What I don't understand is why everyone thinks that we have to some up with one certain way to deal with this. While it is coming to light that there are possibly multiple processes for dealing with this and I think we should be using as many as we can.

Check out this video that has fallen way down thread. Now explain to me; why this can't at least be looked into.

At this point, I feel that people are working harder to find reasons for not doing anything, then the effort it would take to actually do something.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x466004

other posts in this thread, you would have seen that I said earlier that I did not think hair would work. So, you just keep your fixation on hair, cry the sky is falling and keep encouraging people to give it up cause nothing can be done.

I'll move on to more constructive things like continuing to look for more positive possible solutions and promoting those ideas.

as opposed to a hair person.

I said I was encouraged to see that people care and want to help. But most people don't know how to help. I'm afraid it's going to be mostly a clean up of dead bodies on the beach than anything else.

I didn't say nothing can be done. But if you're looking to big group efforts to save the Gulf from environmental disaster, I don't see the means to do it. Would have to have the systems already in place.
About all we can do is monitor it. There are several groups wanting volunteers to do wildlife surveillance work. But it sounds like you want the gov to form a jobs program to clean up the Gulf. Did they do that after Katrina?

units of beach workers hired by BP to clean up debris, they are working now before the oil comes in to monitor the beaches and shorelines looking for signs of oil.

BP is responsible for the cleaning of the beaches and they hire the folks who monitor.

The manpower is not an issue, it is the desire to stop the mess and to not be of the mind set "its inevitable".

There is no excuse for this, they had plenty of time to prevent the oil from coming on shore and they had the ways to do it, they just ignored the methods and rejected the offers.

ding ding- OIL.

but all we have is relatively primitive solutions for this "unprecedented" disaster--right? Booms of any kind are only a stopgap. And re. this rate of flow indefinitely, IMO booms will not be able to help avoid ecological disaster anyway.

It's not a time to argue about what the booms are made of. Too late. And there's no viable "natural" alternative that is readily available at this critical moment. If you like hair booms, it's back to the drawing board...

He had an opportunity here to singlehandedly clean up this mess. He could have been a national hero. Oh well, too bad for him.

Cheaper too. Two birds with one stone, more or less. And with "embedded reporters only, please" becoming the standard where within the borders of the U.S. they won't even have to look over their shoulder much longer.

:sarcasm:


that's what it appears BP wants to do with their callous profits-before-honor philosophy...

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...this is what it's called in an article from the west coast of Florida on this subject:

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20100522/ARTICLE/5221057/2416

Apparently, Hair is Not the Tonic for Oil Spill
By HALLE STOCKTON
Published: Saturday, May 22, 2010 at 1:00 a.m.

You know the 500,000 pounds of hair donated by people hoping to help save the Gulf of Mexico with oil-absorbing "hair booms"?

Well, never mind.

The massive stash of hair and animal fur -- packed into boxes and collected in 19 warehouses across the Gulf Coast including in Tampa and Fort Myers -- will not be used in any cleanup effort.

Officials from British Petroleum and agencies leading the cleanup say the so-called "hair booms" are unusable because they are ineffective and could create more pollutants than the spilled oil itself.

Sarasota County spokesman Larry Allen said the hair could actually create more contamination and pollution because it would break up in open water. He called the hair boom movement a "well-intended fraud."

"People understandably want to help but the hair will never be used," Allen said.

People getting haircuts or dog grooming have donated the clippings in response to a national campaign led by the California nonprofit group Matter of Trust. The group says on its website that about 90,000 salons, pet groomers and individuals, including dozens locally, have donated 500,000 pounds of hair.

Numerous attempts to contact the group by phone and e-mail were unsuccessful this week. Despite BP's rejection of the hair as an oil absorbent, the group's website on Thursday said its efforts were supported by BP, and it posted a message saying, "YOU ALL DID IT!" The site features a link where financial donations can be made...

(more at link)

don't know what else to say

"booms made from hair became water-logged and sank within a short period of time"


Well put them in a net, drag it and then pull it up you complicit idiots. Your chemicals aren't the answer.

the shorelines themselves to soak up the oil before it gets into the marsh plants and vegetation.

Just like they could drop bails of hay, better to have to pick up the hay and the hair booms soaked with oil than to have to clean the oil out of the dead plants.