Iranians still facing death by stoning despite 'reprieve'

Source: The Guardian

Twelve Iranian women and three men are on death row awaiting execution by stoning despite an apparent last-minute reprieve for a mother of two who had been facing the horrific sentence after being convicted of adultery.

Human rights groups and activists welcomed a wave of international publicity and protests over the case of Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani, 43, who was awaiting execution in the western Iranian town of Tabriz after what her lawyer called an unjust trial and a sham conviction.

=snip=

Speaking to this paper Mohammadi Ashtiani's son Sajad, said his mother – whom he had spoken to by telephone – believed the pressure on her behalf might succeed, although he had not heard of any reprieve. "The campaign for her release is going very well," he said. "They gave me permission to talk to her and she was very thankful to the people of the world for supporting her. I'm very happy that so many have joined me in protesting this injustice. It was the first time in years I heard any hope in my mother's voice."

Without a reprieve, Mohammadi Ashtiani would have been buried up to her neck before being pelted with stones large enough to cause pain but not so large as to kill her immediately. Iran routinely censors information about executions, but all the 12 other women on death row have been convicted on adultery charges, as has one of the three men.

- Azar Bagheri, 19, was arrested when she was 15 after her husband accused her of seeing another man. She has been subjected to mock stonings along with partial burial in the ground.

- Ashraf Kalhori, 40, also sentenced to death by stoning, was forced to confess to a relationship with her husband's murderer, and has been in Tehran's Evin prison for seven years, according to her lawyer.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/08/iran-death-stoning-adultery

---

Stoning in Iran: Brutality pure and simple

Unlike other facets of Iranian life, the Islamic Republic is embarrassed by the international attention stonings attract

Editorial
The Guardian, Friday July 9 2010

Stoning takes place in the darker recesses of life in Iran, in rural provinces where the population is more conservative and where there are no media. It is rarely practised in public and often the victim of this savage form of capital punishment is disowned by their children on the grounds that the offence – adultery or homosexuality – stains the family honour. This newspaper revealed a week ago that Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani, a 43-year-old Iranian woman convicted of conducting an "illicit relationship outside marriage", faced imminent death by stoning in Tabriz. Today we name 15 others facing the same fate. What made Sakineh's case unusual is that her son Sajad and daughter Farideh were courageous enough to speak up publicly against it.

It is not just the fact that Sakineh has already been in prison for five years and endured a sentence of 99 lashes for an offence there is no evidence that she committed, and that the death sentence was a sham. It was handed down on the basis of "judge's knowledge", a loophole that allows rulings where there are no witnesses or conclusive evidence. Furthermore, the judgment was not unanimous. Two of the five judges dissented, which means that under Iranian law that she should not have been sentenced to death.

The death itself is unimaginably cruel: men are buried to the waist and, if they wriggle free during the stoning, the death sentence is commuted, but women are buried up to the neck, for fear that their breasts may be uncovered. Watching men hurl stones – big enough to injure but small enough to delay the death – at a defenceless woman is so repugnant that it cannot be shown to a wider Iranian audience and reports of stonings are censored. But nor can it be dismissed as the local custom in remote villages, if the sanction itself is contained in Iran's penal code and if the Guardian Council has remained silent on the issue. Parliament itself voted a year ago to strike out the clause, but nothing has happened.

Unlike other facets of Iranian life, where world opinion has no leverage, the Islamic Republic is embarrassed by the international attention stonings attract. Publicity makes a difference. Last night the Iranian embassy in London, citing information from judicial authorities, said that the stoning of Sakineh would not go ahead, but would not say what would now happen to her. No mention was made of the fate awaiting the 12 other women and three men on death row. The lesson of this tale is that Iran, which is a signatory to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, must be challenged on each and every occasion when stoning is threatened until it is forced to strike the punishment from its penal code.

From: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jul/09/stoning-death-penalty-iran-editorial

This barbaric practice needs international publicity, if that's the only thing that will stop it. x(

It is one of the most horrible things I have ever watched in my life.

And before the automatic comments reminding us that we still have the death penalty here in the US, please consider the reasons that these women are being stoned.

We have a lot to change here in our world, but it does not take away our ability to condemn that which goes on in other's.

there are plenty of people in this country who would like to see extra-marital sex punished by death. And some of them would probably love to impose it by stoning, since it would make them feel all warm and fuzzy to do it like in the olden days...

It explicitly prescribes the death penalty for such people, in multiple places. Not that anyone in this country is wacky and fundy enough to take anything that extreme literally, just because it's in the Bible.

Oh, wait....

Nor would anyone in this country call for a return to Biblical law in all of our civil statutes...that'd be looney...

Oh, wait....

extra-marital sex punished by death" because I've never actually met in person anyone who advocated that --despite meeting very many very strange people over the years. Of course, adventuring through cyberspace increases the numbers of wackos one distantly encounters, and I have found now and then websites encouraging idiocies of the type you reference, but the history of the US, and in particular our 20th century history, strongly suggests that your "plenty of people" claim is unlikely to be true

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the question is not "Are there any of them?" but rather "How many of them are there really?"

Perhaps you'd say there aren't enough. That wouldn't surprise me. The fact that you personally haven't encountered people saying this is, again, completely meaningless.

with the bible story where Christ not only stopped the stoning of Mary M., but he also wrote the sins of her stoners in the sand that they should be reminded of their own shortcomings and told them that he who is without sin cast the first stone. Point being, he wanted to promote tolerance and forgiveness and it is here that Christianity differs from Islam which still regards the Old Testament as a valid basis for laws and punishment.

The part of the bible you refer to is Deuteronomy in the Old Testament and not even Jews subscribe to the injunction to stone adulterers. Of the three Abrahamic faiths, only Muslims cling to stone age biblical injunctions.

like Judaism, so your statement is rather silly to begin with, not to mention the fact that there was no Christianity when the story you mention supposedly took place.

And if you think there are no Christians in this country who don't believe that our laws should be based on Old Testament values, and "stone age biblical injunctions", then you really, really haven't been paying attention. It is only because there are enough decent people in this country, along with judges with a conscience, that the fundies know they can't get away with it. But if the religious right had their way, I mean REALLY had their way, you'd see it in a heartbeat.

New Testament and this is one of the central stories, so central that no established Christian Church whether Orthodox, Coptic, Roman Catholic etc have over two centuries executed adulterers. I don't doubt that there are fanatics who might want to execute adulterers, however, they would be hard pressed to find any justification. Not only does the story show Jesus forgiving Mary M but Paul consistently states through-out the new Testment Mosaic Law no longer applies.

Or had you forgotten that? The fact that some people choose to cherry-pick different parts of the Bible than you do doesn't make their justifications any less valid than yours. And don't forget, children who curse their parents are also to be executed.

And of course, no Christian church has executed anyone. They have no authority to carry out punishments of that type, so your argument is a rather dopey straw man. The point is that there ARE people out there (and more than plenty of them) who would see people executed (stoned even) for a whole host of biblical crimes, if they had their way. Deny that all you want, but it's a fact.

Which is just as bad as executing adulterers.

since adulterers actually exist, and probably a goodly number of the people who have been punished for adultery were actually guilty of it (not that I think it should be a crime in any event, and certainly not a capital crime). But the crime of witchcraft (at least in Western history) and the notion that "witches" even exist is entirely a delusion, brought about by Christian ignorance and superstition.

that think fascism is a good idea. So what?
The point is that these people are few and far between.
The barbarians that run Iran are still stuck in the 13th century and need to be stopped in what they do. I think sanctions are a good idea. If not for their nuclear aspirations, then their treatment of women.

some would disagree with your assessment.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4458256#4459798

But there is nothing civilized about what happens to even the most innocuous offender.
Plus the women that are executed for adultery for being raped

Kurdish pregnant woman shot 20 times in honour killing


Jihan married her husband three years ago to the harsh disapproval of her family. Already a mother and pregnant with their second child, Jihan and her husband believed the dispute between their families was over. On June 16, the pregnant Jihan was shot dead in her home by her own relatives in what police say was an honor killing.

“We had settled the dispute between both of the families. I don’t know why her family killed her,” her husband, Jaleel Mustafa, 38, told Rudaw this week.

Jihan Sideeq, 28, was cleaning in the family home in Suayfa village, Gwer district, when four of her relatives entered the house and shot her 20 times.

http://www.ekurd.net/mismas/articles/misc2010/7/state4015.htm

That's a wonderful culture. That kind of behavior is perfectly acceptable, as long as it's someone's culture. We should all admire it. :sarcasm: (wish I didn't need to add that, but you can't take too many chances on this site)
I'm sure Jihan feels honored that people cared enough about her to respect her culture. Maybe should emulate them, because they are another culture, and therefore wise and wonderful.

Culture and religion are not the same thing.

anti any religion. I never used the word religion. I always used the word culture.
Theirs needs to be isolated, condemned, and mocked in the harshest possible way. To not do so would allow more women, minorities, and gays to be persecuted and murdered. This paternalistic woman-hating crap has got to stop. And don't give me that "our ancestors were like that 700 years ago" crap. You know, and I know that it's BS, and does not excuse people acting like that in 2010. Civilization STARTED in that area. What about western civilization allowed us to mature in just 700 years? Are we just better, that we don't, as a nation, hang gays and stone women for being raped? What prevented them from doing the same thing? Why do they still do that BS? And how long will the West have to put up with it and see thousands of innocent people killed by these poor excuses for people?
If I'm off base, please let me know.

of the US population believes that god created the world 6000 years ago. And that's just the whackiness that they will admit to publicly, since they barely realize how silly it makes them look. There are many, many people who believe in much harsher things from the Bible, and would support them eagerly. Those people have been in control of the Republican party for 30 years, so your attempt to dismiss them as "few and far between" rings a bit hollow.

In any case, how many sociopathic nutballs does it take to put a country on the path to destruction, if most of the populace acts like compliant sheep? A million? 100,000? 10,000? Not even close, if you know anything about history.

And, plenty of so-called Christians would love for women and gays to be stoned to death.

suppression of free thought, and hatred towards science and those that studied it because science tears through the bullshit myths that seem to have brainwashed so many even today.

Please link to whatever American group that is calling for stoning to return here.

Here's just one:

http://bulldogger.wordpress.com/2010/03/11/christian-reconstructionism-theocratic-dominionism-gains-influence/


If you'd like to be made to look like an even bigger and more uninformed fool, just say so, and I'd be glad to oblige.

"How many of these people are there?" I think their views are very unpopular with mainstream America, and that there cannot actually be a great number of these wackos about -- in fact, your link supports that view: ... Reconstructionism cloaks its identity, as well as its activities, understanding the degree of opposition it provokes ...

and certainly mainstream Christianity, thinks that the world and everything on it was created 6000 years ago. So you might want to try a different argument. And my link (which you cited yourself) supports the position that there are far more people who would like to see a Reconstructionist philosophy in place than you personally are likely to be aware of. Or did you not comprehend that?

I said that there were plenty of people like this out there. If you chose to argue that there aren't enough, so be it. If you want to get a better idea of numbers, do some actual reading. Not all knowledge is available though a "link".

with the bible story where Christ not only stopped the stoning of Mary M., but he also wrote the sins of her stoners in the sand that they should be reminded of their own shortcomings and told them that he who is without sin cast the first stone. Point being, he wanted to promote tolerance and forgiveness and it is here that Christianity differs from Islam which still regards the Old Testament as a valid basis for laws and punishment.

Of course adultery was penalised in various western law codes, but from what I've read adulterers weren't executed. At most, finding your wife in bed with someone else meant you had a defence if you killed her or him but this differs from imposing the death penalty on the offenders by law.

"In the mid-17th century the English puritans passed a law making adultery punishable by death. Various cases were brought, but no convictions could be secured. The reason was the jury system...since most people were against the idea of the death penalty for adultery, evidently they always turned out a "not guilty" even when there was plenty of evidence. So the experiment lapsed."

because what we see is right wing religious fundamentalism in action. This is what happens when the religious fanatics run things.

will have to evolve and overthrow the theocratic dictatorship.

and most especially those who would be called "apostates" in Muslim countries,
should be given automatic asylum in the West.
And once here, all law and policy should be brought to bear to guarantee their safety.
The only way the West will remain Western is to become a refuge for those that Islam irrationally calls scum.

people claim is Islamic practice. All Muslims are not Taliban or Wahabbis. There is much beauty in Islam and the examples from the life of the Prophet.

people in fear for their lives.
That's reality.
To tell the truth is not to say that there is no "beauty" in Islam.
My concern is for the welfare of people, not for the beauty of religion.

That is the reality! The USA produces refugees fleeing from the military, fleeing being sent back to war zones. What about those who flee Cuba, ballet dancers who fled the former Soviet Union? People flee different places for various reasons all claiming their lives are in danger.

My point is, you are condemning a whole religion that you have little knowledge about. Anything can be misused, and is. Look at how such a wonderful thing as beauty is exploited, twisted and misused, would you condemn beauty?

I'm condemning a practice.
And doing it by saying that the West should become a great big city of refuge.
"Triumph of the Will" is a beautiful thing, the singing is beautiful, the speeches are beautiful, the formations are perfect, and the scenery is just sublime.
Does that make Nazism virtuous?
Beauty may be truth, but it's not always virtuous.
Just because something is beautiful doesn't mean that all it does is good.
Do you really believe that all beauty is virtue?
And do you believe that all that is Western is ugly?

Wow.

I watched it the other day and I just saw it as evil personified.

Do you think Fox news is a "beautiful thing"?

and threatening.
You only saw it as evil personified because of your place in time.
You have the benefit of hindsight.

If you'd been alive in the 1930s, it's likely you would not have identified what you saw as "evil personified."
The Nazis became powerful in Germany because they were allowed to do so.
They became powerful in Europe because Europeans allowed them to do so.
Things could have been very different if people had taken offense and rose up against it in 1934.
Did you notice all of the nuanced moves toward placating the S.A.?
You see that because a month before the S.A.'s first leader Ernst Rohm was shot and killed in the Night of the Long Knives.
He was shot because he was individually ambitious for the S.A.-- he wanted them to replace the German Army!
The S.A. was not founded by the Nazis-- it was founded in 1915. It had an independence that threatened even Nazi rule.
So when I was watching it, I wasn't just looking and being awed at the order of things, I understood that this was a group trying to get a hold of itself.

in comparison with a religion, Islam.

"They became powerful in Europe because Europeans allowed them to do so."

Actually, they became powerful because of a variety of factors. A few of these were: the hyperinflation of the 1920s, France invading the Ruhr in 1923 and Wall Street propping up the Weimar Republic with loans (the Dawes and Young plans) and then calling those loans in after the Wall Street crash of 1929.

"Things could have been very different if people had taken offense and rose up against it in 1934."

Nobody outside of his inner circle knew the extent of Hitler's intentions in 1934.

The reason I asked if you thought Fox is a "beautiful thing" wasn't because I was throwing in a glib insult just for the sake of it.

To paraphrase what you were saying... There are just under 3 million people who think Fox is a beautiful thing, the anchors are beautiful, the hysterical anti-Obama talking points are beautiful, the editing is perfect and the graphics are sublime.

I don't think 'beauty' is the right word to describe either Nazi or Fox news propaganda.

the Nazis appropriated for themselves, symbols that go back millennia.
The eagles, the wreaths, the swastika, torches, the depiction of the human body and the landscape . . . everything there is drawn from ancient or medieval roots. So when you look at it, what you're seeing is the use of potent cultural symbols in a new, tyrannical and ultimately lethal context.
There's nothing that is so grounded at Fox. Perhaps they think that because this is America, they can get away with it.
And it's that grounding and the identification with it either piece by piece or all at once, that makes "Triumph of the Will" such a visually powerful and even beautiful film.
My brother once said that the mushroom cloud is beautiful.
"I hope the world ends soon, I'll really like seeing those mushroom clouds. They look just like crosses, don't you think?"
He was drunk and horribly self-destructive at the time, but I understood what he was saying.
The mushroom cloud is beautiful.
And it is also lethal.
There are many things in this world that are beautiful and dangerous at the same time. If it's beautiful, it can't necessarily be counted on to do good.
Still, that being said, there are many beautiful things that manage to do much good.

that is Fox News with Nazi propaganda.
The Nazis were cunning snakes.
The people at Fox News are vacuous, screaming baboons.

seriously endless parades and speechs about workers rights, the new highway system and Hitler kissing babies.

I think many people who comment on the film have never actually sat through it


per Ebert

"It is a terrible film, paralyzingly dull, simpleminded, overlong and not even "manipulative," because it is too clumsy to manipulate anyone but a true believer. It is not a "great movie" in the sense that the other films in this group are great, but it is "great" in the reputation it has and the shadow it casts."

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080626/REVIEWS08/911177318/1023

"The only way the West will remain Western is to become a refuge for those that Islam irrationally calls scum."....and stop twisting my words...I NEVER said all that is Western in ugly.

Do you believe that all that is Western is ugly?
And, if you live in the West, will you tolerate the apostate and the other?
Because if you don't, then you might as well say that everything in the West is indeed ugly.

so it is not an aberration of Islamic extremists.

snip

There are two textual sources for Islamic law: the Koran and the hadith (the sayings and actions of the Prophet). Both are equally authoritative. The hadith are much more extensive: whereas the Koran is only a few hundred pages, the Sahih al-Bukhari is 11 volumes long, and that is only one of six canonical collections of hadith. So, in purely quantitative terms, the hadith are by far the more significant source of Islamic law.

Some hadith on stoning:

From the Sahih al-Bukhari:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Umar: The Jews brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from among them who had committed illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet said to them, "How do you usually punish the one amongst you who has committed illegal sexual intercourse?" They replied, "We blacken their faces with coal and beat them," He said, "Don't you find the order of Ar-Rajm (i.e. stoning to death) in the Torah?" They replied, "We do not find anything in it." 'Abdullah bin Salam (after hearing this conversation) said to them. "You have told a lie! Bring here the Torah and recite it if you are truthful." (So the Jews brought the Torah). And the religious teacher who was teaching it to them, put his hand over the Verse of Ar-Rajm and started reading what was written above and below the place hidden with his hand, but he did not read the Verse of Ar-Rajm. 'Abdullah bin Salam removed his (i.e. the teacher's) hand from the Verse of Ar-Rajm and said, "What is this?" So when the Jews saw that Verse, they said, "This is the Verse of Ar-Rajm." So the Prophet ordered the two adulterers to be stoned to death, and they were stoned to death near the place where biers used to be placed near the Mosque. I saw her companion (i.e. the adulterer) bowing over her so as to protect her from the stones.

From the Sahih al-Muslim (another canonical collection):

Abu Huraira reported that a person from amongst the Muslims came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) while he was in the mosque. He called him saying: Allah's Messenger. I have committed adultery. He (the Holy Prophet) turned away from him, He (again) came round facing him and said to him: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery. He (the Holy Prophet) turned away until he did that four times, and as he testified four times against his own self, Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called him and said: Are you mad? He said: No. He (again) said: Are you married? He said: Yes. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Take him and stone him. Ibn Shihab (one of the narrators) said: One who had heard Jabir b. 'Abdullah saying this informed me thus: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the place of prayer (either that of 'Id or a funeral). When the stones hurt him, he ran away. We caught him in the Harra and stoned him (to death). This hadith has been narrated through another chain of transmitters.

These are canonical texts, considered as authoritative as the Koran. You can't just wish them away. Stoning is not the invention of fanatics it is there in the basic texts of Islamic law. Any attempt to outlaw stoning in an Islamic law context has to deal with that fact.

& big deal, you have found some hadiths...of which I doubt you have any idea of how to read. You do know reading hadiths is a science, I'm sure. FYI the isnad of Abu Huraira is weak. I do not want to get into a doctrinal discussion here, as it's not the place, and in particular not with someone who has their mind closed. If you have any real interest in the matter, I'd suggest you study some people who are knowledgeable, like Riffat Hassan. http://www.religiousconsultation.org/hassan2.htm

Thanks for yr posts in this thread...

I have ever met

Because, you know, it's Communism that's evil. Not theocracy. Unless they want to build nuclear reactors. :banghead:

While that last line would ensure yr post would appeal to Islamophobic types, you are completely out of line and incorrect to attack an entire religion.

And they can go about their barbarism unmolested, pausing only to cloak that barbarism in religion to disguise the taste.

Do you think sanctions work? Besides, it is their culture. The west is always telling others how to live their life when we are JUST as bad. Remember, our government still kills people. And dont tell me its an Apple to Oranges argument.

Its the very opposite of any sense of progressiveism.

is it racist to dare say that this medieval religious practice ?

is it allowed to say this is an atrocity under a shiria dogma ?

is it wrong to say this sharia fundamnentalism is spreading in europe?


its hard to dance around the obvious yet not say it.

idea of what sharia is? It is a complicated issue and one with different interpretations. As an example, in some schools of thought the verse in the Quran that says women should be modest and cover their breasts is interpreted by some by pulling their head covering over themselves, face and all, others cover the breasts with a cloth of some type, and again others use a head covering to cover the head and breast. It's a matter of interpretation.

what school of thought justifies stoning a woman until she dies?

is that in sharia law?

is there a n y justification for this?

They come out of the Hanbali school. They have grown stronger due to the influx of petrol dollars. Their rise roughly follows the rise of petrol money. It is the West who made friends with Ibn Saud, a Wahabbi...and one of the few countries who stone people and cut hands off...along with other rather unenlightened interpretations of Sharia.

I know there are more Muslims but I didn't realize Sharia Fundamentalism was spreading there, I thought progressive Muslims of today who do not believe in stoning were spreading there. We have plenty of them in the US too and they are fine, civilized, modern.

I'm a bit worried about your first talking point because it's the first one of that right wing nazi party that is trying to take over France. I think that's where they were, I head the pro and against politicians on NPR a week ago, and seriously the nazi one listed the same first talking point you just did.

nothing like guilt by pseudo-association.

no reason to respond. thx




on edit.....

fwiw to you, CIP has a long summary of fundamnentalism in the west.

http://www.islamicpluralism.org/documents/shariah-law-islamist-ideology-western-europe.pdf

read or ignore.thx


sorry....on double edit

Stop Violence against Women in the name of 'culture'

http://stop-stoning.org/history


In 2007, the Global Campaign to Stop Killing and Stoning Women (SKSW Campaign), was launched to end the relentless misuse of religion and culture to justify the killing, maiming and torture of women as punishment for violating the imposed ‘norms’ of sexual behaviour.

The Campaign is not against any culture, religion or faith. We believe in promoting the positive, inclusive values and discourses that are part of our cultures. What we seek to challenge and oppose is the legitimacy given to legal, religious and cultural systems that either promote or mitigate discrimination and violence against women and girls.

The Campaign is most active in Muslim contexts, as it grew predominantly from struggles in countries like Iran, Nigeria, Indonesia and Pakistan opposing cruel and inhuman punishments against women and girls such as stoning, whippings, female genital mutilation and honour killings. The Campaign believes that CVAW manifests in multiple and diverse forms across all cultures. Therefore, steps are being taken to expand and make links with those working in diverse religious and cultural contexts.

Honour killings were first legally sanctioned in the Napoleonic Codes, and the ‘grave and sudden provocation’ clause was introduced by Europeans into the legislation of many countries with colonial histories across Latin America, Asia and Africa. In Italy, honour killings were sanctioned until 1981 and men who killed their wives, sisters, or daughters in a ‘fit of fury’ upon catching them in the act of adultery could receive no more than a 7 year sentence. In 2006, Nicaragua outlawed abortion even in cases of medical emergency due to the strong influence of the Catholic church, which results in women who try to exercise their reproductive rights becoming targets of backlash, intimidation, and harm by the State and community members. In 2008 reports began surfacing that self-proclaimed morality police in certain Jewish sects in Israel were inciting violence against women for failing to cover their heads or opting for divorce. In Senegal, early/forced marriages of minors are still occurring, despite their being national legislation prohibiting forced marriage and setting the national marriage age for girls at 16. In 2009 President Karzai signed the Shia Family Code which effectively legalizes marital rape, including a clause which maintains a husband’s right to withhold basic necessities, including food, until a wife submits to his sexual demands.

The underlying connection in all of these cases is that women’s fundamental rights to control their own bodies and make their own life choices are being denied on the basis of claims of cultural or religious authority and authenticity. Such claims must be rejected, as there is no cultural or religious right to threaten, harm, torture or execute anyone because she is a woman exercising her human rights.

So what is it exactly that you think is overrunning Europe? Do you think that women all over Europe are in imminent danger of being found guilty of adultery and stoned to death?

To call it fundamnentalism is xenophobic hatespeech. This is language used by the right wing of our country to drum up support. What is progressive is to let them do what their culture allows and we worry about ours.

"What is progressive is to let them do what their culture allows and we worry about ours."

and that includes allowing women to be stoned and not even speaking out?

I guess i was wrong.

I am not saying we cannot speak out... but is it not a symbol self rightousness for us to critique another culture and expect them to be like us? Stoneing is not something we find exceptable in our culture. I don't want that to change. My point is that they are different than us. I simply believe we should not judge cultures that are different than our own.

so we can speak out....but we should not judge.(thats seems odd)

yet there are cultures that judge OUR culture and in fact have committed crimes against our "culture"...but thats ok I guess.

on edit

heres a young man who apparently is not afraid to judge your right to post here

carrying out an honor killing against a woman, you wouldn't do anything to stop them? Call the cops? Would you respect their beliefs to that extent? Where does respecting someone's culture end and being complicit in the murder of a human being begin? I'm sure that someone that is buried up to their waist while people hurl rocks at them is wishing that someone like you wouldn't respect the culture and, I don't know, actually save their lives. I'll bet they don't even respect their culture at all at that point.

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Those poor women. It's incomprehensible to me that out of them all, only one has a family that's sticking with her and fighting to get her released. It's not only the horrific and barbaric practice that needs to end (and while we're at it, the death penalty itself is also barbaric), but the attitudes of families and society in general...