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Wanted Iraqi Shiite cleric barricades himself in holy mosque (Sadr)

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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:06 PM
Original message
Wanted Iraqi Shiite cleric barricades himself in holy mosque (Sadr)
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 04:48 PM by Barrett808
KUFA, Iraq (AFP) - Iraqi Shiite radical Moqtada Sadr was barricaded inside a mosque in this shrine city as the US-led coalition announced a warrant for his arrest for the murder of a rival cleric last year.

Sadr was holed up inside the holy Kufa mosque, where centuries earlier the founder of Shiism, Imam Ali, was killed in 661 AD, even before the coalition announced a warrant was out for the defiant young leader.

"He will not be arrested, we will not allow his arrest, not by the Americans, not by the British and not by anyone else," Hazem al-Araji, director of Sadr's office in Kadhimiya, a Shiite district of the capital, told AFP.

"We will be human shields for his protection," he added.

Top coalition spokesman Dan Senor said Sadr's arrest warrant had been issued several months ago in connection with the murder of Abdul Majid Khoei, who had been flown in to Iraq by the coalition last year to act as a moderating force.

(more)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=afp/iraq_shiites_scene
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is getting Uglier and Uglier by the second. n/t
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. i lived in an Islamic republic in the peace corps in 1973.. you ain't seen
nothing yet...!!! Islam never had an 'age of reason' or reformation in the church.. they don't think like we do... our soldiers are are screwed.. bush is a fool to think we could build a utopia in a dominantly Islamic country... divided by feudal tribes.. what a dumbass
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momwarnedme Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. Is he above the law? An Iraqi judge has a warrant on him for murder
Why is he afraid to come out and face his peers for a murder he may have committed? He is no better than that whacko in Waco that we served a warrant on. Why would sadr get a pass?
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Ummm...
because he's trying to incite an insurrection...

US troops forcing their way into a mosque is going to make us look bad. That's his objective.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Martyring Sadr...Then things will be mellow
The Shi'a, both radical and "moderate," are holding all the cards. We have squat. And we're surrounded.
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damnraddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. Whose law?
I doubt that it would work. But if it did and he actually starved to death, he would be an instant martyr. And Iraq would explode -- the only law would be the religious law the theocrats imposed after the U.S. turned tail. This is PRECISELY one of the things the Bushistas were warned about before their stupid invasion: setting off a religious war, particularly with the Shia.
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adriennui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #25
88. i'm not a foreign policy expert
even i knew this would happen. saddam being ousted left a vacuum that could only be filled by some form of islamic republic.

what a massive blunder. where oh where is saddam when we need him?
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. Would that be the law imposed by an illegal occupying power?
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 04:37 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
Did you actually use the term pacify? This shit sounds more and more like the Vietnam war and its supporters.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. I don't tend to "trust" anyone involved in this since I know
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 05:54 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
little about these people and their culture. From your over use of of the word jihadist as applied even to the civilians that protest (from your other enlightened posts), you probably know even less. If this judge you refer to was appointed in any way by our puppet government. It is very likely Iraqis won't trust him as you do. That is the important thing.

PS Save that "you're with us or against us" bullshit for right wing sites. We don't do that here.
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wabeewoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
32. Oh, you mean like the US
who invades a sovereign nation without justification, kills without trial the sons of the dictator (and thousands of innocents), kidnaps and removes a democratically elected president( Haiti) and on and on? Pleeze! Lets not talk about respect for the law when we have an administration in charge of the US that believes itself to be above the law.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. You mean an "Iraqi" judge - that was installed by the Bushco's
occupying and invading forces?

That one?

The "democratic" government created, approved and installed by the Bushco? That one?

Just like the democratic government installed in S. Viernam?

Just like the "judges" installed by the Nazis. Same foundation of authority.

Riiiiiight.

Don't forget to tell us all how much better Iraq is now without Saddam.

"But bunkerboy is NOT a Nazi, so stop saying that!"
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Was the judge installed by "Bushco"?
I have not heard that. If you have a link to this information, please post it.
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #48
55. The judge (I belive) was a member of Saddams feared mukabarat(spelling?)
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #48
72. The judge was a member of Saddam's secret police (LINK)
The US charges of murder against Al-Sadr are FALSE, and the judge that signed arrest warrant was with Saddam's secret police.

I remember the incident because it was widely discussed among policy wonks in the internet at the time (and I saved my bookmarks). Al-Khoei was not the target, but another other cleric who had been a Saddam supporter.

There was no murder here! It was a crowd that was outraged at seeing a cleric that had worked for Saddam's Ministry of Religious Affairs.

The judge that signed the arrest warrant against Al-Sadr was a member of Saddam's much feared secret police (Thanks to KurtNilsen for finding that article). The US is lying as usual.

Here are the two stories, one from the BBC dated April 10, 2003, about the incident in question. The other story is from The Guardian dated October 22, 2003, about Habboush, the former Mukhabarat officer that is working for Chalabi.

Shia leader murdered in Najaf
Thursday, 10 April, 2003

A senior Shia cleric working with coalition forces has been killed inside a mosque in the Iraqi holy city of Najaf.
Abdul Majid al-Khoei returned to Iraq from exile in London only last week.

He was one of two Muslim leaders hacked to death outside the Ali Mosque, one of the holiest sites for Shia Muslims.

The other was cleric Haider Kelidar, whom according to Arabic satellite channel al-Jazeera, had worked for Saddam Hussein's ministry of religious affairs.

<snip>

He (Khoei) had noticed Mr Kelidar coming under attack by a crowd and gone to help him - but was himself knifed. Both men died.

Other reports said crowds shouted abuse at the clerics, causing Mr Khoei to produce a gun and fire shots.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2936887.stm

Plan to arrest maverick Iraqi cleric for murder

Michael Howard in Baghdad
Wednesday October 22, 2003
The Guardian

Coalition and Iraqi officials are preparing an arrest warrant for the firebrand Shia cleric Muqtada al-Sadr over his alleged involvement with the brutal murder of a rival cleric last spring, sources close to the Iraqi governing council told the Guardian yesterday.

The warrant, which has yet to be finalised, cites Mr Sadr for instigating a deadly attack on Abdel Majid al-Khoei, who was stabbed to death by a mob in the Shia holy city of Najaf on April 10.

It is said to be signed by Tahir Jalil Habboush - a senior mukhabarat officer under the former regime who now works with the coalition authorities - and is based on the confessions of 23 men who were involved in the killing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1068114,00.html
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. Its Pontius* Bremer's Judge
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 06:53 PM by saigon68
* Pontius Bremer, the Governor of the Province of Eastern Iraq-Nam he was appointed by President Cheney (The real dictator in Americka.)
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Too late. Freeper already tomstoned.
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #32
90. And put SH in place of
a democratic socilaist leader who nationalized the oil fields and the Brits and U$ didn't like that?
Give me a break!
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Who says he's "getting a pass"?
Besides YOU?

If Waco had been under the occupation of a foreign force there under questionable legality, I might allow that you had a fair comparison.

But I will grant that this will have almost the same end that the Koresh thing did, with the exception that nobody in this country will be yelling for Bush and Ashcroft's heads like they did Clinton and Reno.

Sadr's no dummy. The phrase "Shot while attempting to escape" means the same in all languages.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. the law?
in Iraq? :crazy:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. does the law work both ways?
will the U.S. allow Iraq to extradite Chalabi to Jordan?

Will the U.S. allow Iraq to exercise any justice regarding American troops or civilians?

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damnraddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. Will the U.S. allow Iraq to extradite ...
Dubya and his cronies to the Hague to stand trial for war crimes?
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Gloria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #23
91. Re: Chalabi.....there is a move afoot in Jordan to include him in a
general amnesty!!!!!!! I'm not kidding, the story was up in the WMW a few weeks ago. Many members of the legislative branch (I forget what it's called) are adamantly against this because of his business dealings.
At the same time there were stories of "new evidence" clearing Chalabi, but I haven't seen any reports of that having come through...

Meanwhile, Abdullah is wheeling and dealing...Jordan is going to be involved in "electrification" of Iraq, extending its network that is already in Egypt and other countries in the region....
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damnraddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. If served, the only law that will be respected in Iraq in the near future
will be the most-horrid of theocratic law -- Sadrist law, whether issued by Sadr or in his name. Look, nobody here likes Sadr or what he represents -- the problem is that the Busheviks have just nominated him for Iraqi martyr, and may yet 'elect' him to that position.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
36. Like cheney respects the law?
What is the name of this judge? And give a link that sez all this stuff.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
50. Was anyone respecting Islamic principles when the genocidal sanctions
Was anyone respecting Islamic principles when the genocidal sanctions were reviewed and renewed several times for 12 years? Did anyone care about Islam when Iraqis were bombed to death during Ramadan with the bombs specifically marked “Ramadan gift?” Did anyone think about Islamic principles before invading and killing no less than 20,000 civilians on the basis of nothing but lies? Does anyone care about Islamic principles now that a murderous and dehumanising occupation is under way?


It takes us to two conclusions: 1. The same selective approach to Islam is used as a foundation for promoting “moderate” Islam. The principles that suite the global tyrants are picked and promoted, while those which hurt their global agenda are delegitimized. 2. Irrespective of Islam, the US and its allies are destined to reap Fallujah like fruits for the seeds they plant every moment through their horrific, illegal colonial war.

To blame resistance to the US enterprise on Islam or to put the blame of a people crossing limits in just retaliation on moral inferiority of Muslims is absurd. Was not the US government’s well planned release of video clips of bullet-riddled bodies of Saddam’s sons a gruesome spectacle? It was “justified” because the occupation authorities needed it to intimidate and demoralize Iraqi resistance.

There is nothing gruesome or un-Islamic in killing, terrorizing and incarceration of Iraqis as long as it is for completing the solemn task of pacifying Iraqis ­— a task which Israel could not do in the last 37 years on a much smaller scale.

Not many Americans are aware of what happened in Fallujah before the much publicized event. Jonathan Steele of the Guardian gives details of the brutality in the days preceded Fallujah event. “Rockets from helicopter gunships had punctured bedroom walls. Patio floors and front gates were pockmarked by shrapnel. Car doors looked like sieves. In the mayhem 18 Iraqis lay dead…It was the worst period of violence Fallujah has seen during a year of occupation.”

No one cared about Islam and Muslim culture when Steele described “the chaos the marines left after sleeping in house. Cupboards were ransacked, a computer had gone, and empty brown bags which once contained army rations littered every room. He was particularly upset at finding them in his teenage sister’s bedroom.”


more
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2004%20opinions/April/5%20o/Weapons%20of%20Muslims'%20Destruction%20By%20Abid%20Ullah%20Jan.htm
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. Peers?
An Iraqi judge appointed by the US backed governing council. I've got a lot of confidence this guy will probably disappear as soon as he's processed into the US occupation prison system.

His peers would be other Shia Clerics, not a puppet judge, even Suni Clerics would be peers. It doesn't matter, either way, if he's arrested he becomes a symbol of the heavy handedness of the US, if he's killed while being arrested, he becomes a martyr, and an even larger symbol, since he will have been killed in a Muslim Holy place.

As for Waco, that all could have been avoided, if the Feds had arrested Koresh in town. They had a warrant for him already, why
did they not confront him while he was alone, and in a position of
weakness. We'll never know, will we?

One last item, the Shia Cleric that was killed, was flown in from out of Iraq, he had been living in London as an exile. Guess who thought it was a good idea to bring him back, and then failed to provide the security he should have had. Can you say the Coalition, I'm sure you can!!!
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #19
52. The coalition did provide security for Khoei -
this security was not allowed to accompany him into the mosque where he was killed -
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. thank you
n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
86. The charges against al-Sadr are false. The judge was a Saddam loyalist
The US charges of murder against Al-Sadr are FALSE, and the judge that signed arrest warrant was with Saddam's secret police.

I remember the incident because it was widely discussed among policy wonks in the internet at the time (and I saved my bookmarks). Al-Khoei was not the target, but another other cleric who had been a Saddam supporter.

There was no murder here! It was a crowd that was outraged at seeing a cleric that had worked for Saddam's Ministry of Religious Affairs.

The judge that signed the arrest warrant against Al-Sadr was a member of Saddam's much feared secret police (Thanks to KurtNilsen for finding that article). The US is lying as usual.

Here are the two stories, one from the BBC dated April 10, 2003, about the incident in question. The other story is from The Guardian dated October 22, 2003, about Habboush, the former Mukhabarat officer that is working for Chalabi.

Shia leader murdered in Najaf
Thursday, 10 April, 2003

A senior Shia cleric working with coalition forces has been killed inside a mosque in the Iraqi holy city of Najaf.
Abdul Majid al-Khoei returned to Iraq from exile in London only last week.

He was one of two Muslim leaders hacked to death outside the Ali Mosque, one of the holiest sites for Shia Muslims.

The other was cleric Haider Kelidar, whom according to Arabic satellite channel al-Jazeera, had worked for Saddam Hussein's ministry of religious affairs.

<snip>

He (Khoei) had noticed Mr Kelidar coming under attack by a crowd and gone to help him - but was himself knifed. Both men died.

Other reports said crowds shouted abuse at the clerics, causing Mr Khoei to produce a gun and fire shots.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2936887.stm

Plan to arrest maverick Iraqi cleric for murder

Michael Howard in Baghdad
Wednesday October 22, 2003
The Guardian

Coalition and Iraqi officials are preparing an arrest warrant for the firebrand Shia cleric Muqtada al-Sadr over his alleged involvement with the brutal murder of a rival cleric last spring, sources close to the Iraqi governing council told the Guardian yesterday.

The warrant, which has yet to be finalised, cites Mr Sadr for instigating a deadly attack on Abdel Majid al-Khoei, who was stabbed to death by a mob in the Shia holy city of Najaf on April 10.

It is said to be signed by Tahir Jalil Habboush - a senior mukhabarat officer under the former regime who now works with the coalition authorities - and is based on the confessions of 23 men who were involved in the killing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1068114,00.html
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damnraddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. Koresh didn't have 10,000 troops; ...
and thousands more who would take up arms to defend him, or to get revenge if he's killed; nor a majority of a country of his specific religious faith.

I don't like government by Ayatollahs, or any theocracy. But that's besides the point -- that being that the Bushistas have got the U.S. on the wrong side of a quagmire, and they haven't been able to walk on water the way they expected to.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
39. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Eye and Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
62. Koresh had Timothy McVey to celebrate the fiasco at Waco.
The Oklahoma City bombing took place precisely on the second aniversary of the Branch Davidian fiasco.

http://dc.yahoo.com/external/wjla/feature/19970418.html
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robbob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. Would YOU turn yourself over
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 04:35 PM by robbob
to the US military? They are as likely to ship him of to some undisclosed holding cell (think Guatanamo) as to bring him before any sort of real criminal tribunal.

You talk about being above the law while asking him to surrender to an occupying army who have pretty much shat on any rule of international law in their rush to invade Iraq for increasingly dubious reasons.

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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
27. Yeah!!! We freed those guys and look at what he's trying to do!!
We are the repressors of that country, right???? Not some unelected Iraqi like him!!!. Hell, he didn't invade the country, WE did, right, so that gives us the right to tell them what to do.'

Where does this asshat get off thinking that just because he's an iraqi and has a few followers that he can interrupt Glorious George's Gentle Crusade?Q?!?!??!?!!?

I'm am pissed at this interloper. He needs to be tried before a court of our appointed judges and shot!!!!

Thank you for pointing out his evil ways

/sarcasm
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markses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
31. Fake ass judge, fake ass warrant
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 04:50 PM by markses
There is no government in Iraq. There is only the illegitimate "Coalition Provisional Authority."

If you see this as an actual concern about crime and not a bald political move to eliminate a popular political leader, you are quite a bit more naive than is healthy for even Americans. Please.

And to hear about "respect for the law" from people that cheer about the absolutely extra-judicial status of the Guantanamo Bay concentration camp is laughable in the extreme. You folks have abandoned the rule of law because you are so SCARED. You can't handle the law. For any American to lecture anybody on "respect for the law" has become an international joke.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
40. That Iraqi "judge" is one of Chalabi's henchmen
an exile that has no connection to the people of Iraq.
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #40
56. Isn't is this man? or have they changed? If that's the case, he was one
of Saddams's henchmen.

"Plan to arrest maverick Iraqi cleric for murder

Coalition and Iraqi officials are preparing an arrest warrant for the firebrand Shia cleric Muqtada al-Sadr over his alleged involvement with the brutal murder of a rival cleric last spring, sources close to the Iraqi governing council told the Guardian yesterday. The warrant, which has yet to be finalised, cites Mr Sadr for instigating a deadly attack on Abdel Majid al-Khoei, who was stabbed to death by a mob in the Shia holy city of Najaf on April 10.

It is said to be signed by Tahir Jalil Habboush - a senior mukhabarat officer under the former regime who now works with the coalition authorities - and is based on the confessions of 23 men who were involved in the killing. "

From, the Guardian, Wednesday October 22, 2003
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. That's the one, and it was one of Saddam's supporters that was killed
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1068114,00.html

Remember how Saddam got confessions from his prisoners?

The bulk of the evidence against Mr Sadr is understood to be based on confessions from 23 men arrested after the attack. Three are reported to have confessed to the stabbing while another 20 said they prevented Mr Khoei from seeking help while bleeding to death. Under questioning, they admitted receiving direct instructions from the young cleric, the source said.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1068114,00.html

The BBC account of the incident clearly shows that it was a mob that attacked one of Saddam's cleric. Al-Khoei was swept up by the mob's anger.

The other was cleric Haider Kelidar, whom according to Arabic satellite channel al-Jazeera, had worked for Saddam Hussein's ministry of religious affairs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2936887.stm
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
42. No authority to serve a warrant.
An occupation appointed government has no legal authority to serve warrants.

Only when there is an elected and representative government can we be confidant that the warrant is legitimate and not political.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
49. Pontius Bremer's Judge signed the Warrant.
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 06:49 PM by saigon68
They have no court system the people have nothing more than a Govt Bureaucracy of Picked Venal Hand Puppets.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. Why doesn't Bremer and "Dirty" Sanchez go out there...
...to PERSONALLY "arrest" Sadr?

Bet that would go over like a wet fart at a funeral.
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fertilizeonarbusto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. OK, this just got even worse.
Thanks again, neocons, with a special thank you to Ralph.
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momwarnedme Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Ralph? You blame Ralph for this coward hiding in a Mosque?
Why not blame the 20,000+ Dems that voted for Bush in FL too?
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Ya know, Jesus was charged with a crime too
And he was executed for it. How did that work out again? My memory fails me.......

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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
5. Yeah...
this isn't going to get extraordinarily ugly... nah, no way...

Everything is going to be fine...
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Quetzal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
11. Some info as to what is going on over there
Arrest Warrant for Muqtada al-Sadr

Dan Senor in a briefing in Baghdad on Monday revealed that an arrest warrant had been issued months ago "by an Iraqi judge" and implied that it would now be served.

US television cable news is doing its best to obscure the real issues here.

1. They keep asking where Muqtada is and calling him a "fugitive." Muqtada announced that he is in his father's mosque in Kufa, and there is no reason to doubt this. He hasn't fled and his whereabouts are well known.

2. Talking heads both from Iraq and from the ranks of the US retired officers keep attempting to maintain that Muqtada's movement is small and marginal. One speaker claimed that Muqtada has only 10,000 men.

In fact that is the size of his formal militia. Muqtada's movement is like the layers of an onion. You have 10,000 militiamen. But then you have tens of thousands of cadres able to mobilize neighborhoods. Then you have hundreds of thousands of Sadrists, followers of Muqtada and other heirs of Muhammad Sadiq al-Sadr. Then you have maybe 5 million Shiite theocrats who sympathize with Muqtada's goals and rhetoric, about a third of the Shiite community. The Sadrists will now try to shift everything so that the 5 million become followers, the hundreds of thousands become cadres, and the tens of thousands become militiamen.

http://www.juancole.com/2004_04_01_juancole_archive.html#108119698951121964


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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. Correct analysis.
"Small numbers" for Sadr's movement is not relevant. True cadre groups can always project way beyond their core members. The Bolsheviks were only a few thousands and yet seized all of Russia.
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damnraddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
28. And the horrid thing is that this builds up a movement toward theocracy.
The Bushistas have created their own worst nightmare. Not to mention a nightmare for Iraq and for the world.
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webtrainer Donating Member (265 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
13. when the future martyrs start lining up . . .
the "coalition" effort in Iraq has collectively jumped the shark
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
14. Anything beyond sending in a negotiation team is going to make
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 04:23 PM by bobthedrummer
this situation much, much worse. Hopefully it's not too late for that, it should be attempted before the situation gets totally out of control.

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damnraddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
17. Oh, this makes it so easy for the Bushistas --
all they have to do is order: (1) that U.S. troops enter the mosque and arrest him; or (2) that the mosque be bombed; or (3) that the mosque be surrounded and totally isolated. That will surely calm Iraq down. LOL!

Hey, Dubya, guess what: they brought it on!
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
21. I must say that Sadr's move to this mosque is brilliant.
If the US moves on him at this mosque, or even engages in a standoff, it seal Sadr's legacy as a martyr to many Muslims around the world, and will exponentially stengthen his movement in Iraq.

The US would be foolish to make a move against him at this time and under these circumstances.

Then again, the only solution to avert further disaster is to withdraw totally and immediately.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. It's not just 'any' mosque, either
As far as the Shia are concerned, it's sort of THE mosque.
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
34. Oh, great, he's in the Kufa Mosque
For Shiites, sending in the troops/police would be like storming the Vatican for Catholics, or seizing the Ka'aba for Muslims in general.

This'll be fun to sort out - NOT.
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
35. Update: Sadr has moved from Kufa to Najaf's Imam Ali shrine
Cleric: Iraq's Sadr Turns Down Elders' Peace Appeal
By Khaled Yacoub Oweis

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Radical Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr has turned down an appeal by Iraq's powerful Shi'ite Muslim establishment to renounce violence, an aide to a leading cleric said on Monday.

...

A Shi'ite religious source said Sadr has moved from Kufa to Najaf's Imam Ali shrine, the holiest Shi'ite site in Iraq, and armed followers have closed off streets leading to the shrine.

(more)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040405/wl_nm/iraq_moqtada_appeal_dc&cid=574&ncid=1480

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. Having infidel US troops going inside Imam Ali shrine
can only be exceeded in stupidity by having US troops enter the Holy Mosque at Mecca.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. Check!
If U.S. troops surround the Imam Ali shrine, it will be mate. Talk about orchestrating the perfect background for martyrdom.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #35
47. This just keeps getting "better and better", doesn't it?!
As to all your and others' wise council to bunkerboy and his gang of thugs - like that'll ever happen?

"Who cares what you think?" comes to mind.

On another note: Wonder where Crisco Johnny will get his oil if the supply is shut off - how will he EVER decide to meet-out justice without the "holy crude"?

To bunkerboy and his gang of thugs:

WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0! WE TOLD YOU S0!

So much for our multi-million "focus group" a year ago.
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Sparky McGruff Donating Member (321 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #35
58. I'm sure this is going to play out perfectly.
Perfectly wrong. Bush and his people have the reverse midas touch. Everything they touch turns to shit.

Now, all we need is for some US spokespeople to talk about their operation as a "crusade". Maybe have Gen. Boykin give some press conferences. That would make things run a bit smoother.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
41. Remember Indira Ghandi, Amritsar, The Golden Temple, etc.
Quick history lesson: She ordered the storming of the Golden Temple (holy to Sikhs) and was later assassinated by Sikhs in her private body guard, even though their loyalty was thought to be beyond reproach.

Martyring someone in the holiest shrine extant is bad business to get involved in. Bremer better hope there are no Shiites within the Green Zone that can get to him, regardless of how loyal he might think they are.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #41
61. Sadr claims to be descendent of Mohammed
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. This is a family claim
not an individual claim.

This hereditary claim is one of the characteristics of the Shia faith.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #61
89. Merely drawing a parallel in terms of religious sensitivities
The consequences of martyring a Shiite Muslim in their most sacred holy place can be expected to be similar to what the consequences of martyring a Sikh in their most sacred holy place were - intense resistance and possibly assassination of the offending political leader.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
57. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
59. The cusp of disaster.
I'd like to think that our leaders would understand what a strategic blunder it would be to storm the mosque and capture or kill the mullah. But, my guess is they will blast their way in and blow the spiritual leader of millions of Iraqi i's to bits in revenge for the slaying of four American mercenaries, men who clearly realized and accepted the risks of their work. (for $950 per day). This may prove to be the critical mass fuse that fully ignites this explosive situation.
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LONG-LINER Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
63. Well we are not leaving soon .. so I say we smack
him down hard .. he is doing nothing good for his countrymen !
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. We? Will you be taking part in the smackdown?
That would be a very stupid thing. With his following, it would be the equivalent of hitting a hornet's nest with a baseball bat.
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LONG-LINER Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:41 PM
Original message
You never did this???? Great Fun.. and
for a few stings ya kill the whole damn nest .. :)
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
69. No I didn't. Because I'm not an idiot.
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itaintmema Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #69
80. Where I'm from we wait until the cool of night
Then while the hornets are too cold to fly and sting we take the nest down and peacefully toss it into the bonfire. No need to be brave and attack them while they can retaliate.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. Where the Neo-cons are from everything is done ass backwards.
Starting with an illegal invasion to the oil rich heart of the middle east.
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itaintmema Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. I hear you brother
It's past time to get off the oil habit. If I was in charge I'd be looking for something better than oil to make things tick.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #87
92. Tomstoned. I knew it. Nice try though, I can smell 'em a mile way.
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itaintmema Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. What should we do instead?
Would an immediate 48 hour withdraw back home to the states be the right thing to do?
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. If the guy has influence over tens of thousands
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 09:48 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
they're gonna have to deal with him in some other way. Killing him him would be a bushiotic. Who's this "we"? Why don't you go and do it yourself since you seem to have the answer. Good luck.
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itaintmema Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #71
78. Do what myself?
I asked an innocent question. Why the attitude?
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. It sounds like you're one of the people advocating "taking him out".
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 10:01 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
Am I wrong? And it wasn't an innocent question.

"Would an immediate 48 hour withdraw back home to the states be the right thing to do?"

You and I know that's impossible. Did you think I suggested this at any point?
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itaintmema Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. No...I'm advocating us GETTIN out
Now...why the attitude against me? It looks like I'm on your side pal.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. If you are, cool. I've heard that type of question today from many
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 10:04 PM by SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN
right wing lukers. I thought you were one of them.
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itaintmema Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. I'm cool guy
I believe we need to pull back and let the UN take over. Over?
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. Over and out. Peace..................eom
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homelandpunk Donating Member (787 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. yeah! And then the Marines should shit on a prayer mat and piss on
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 09:41 PM by homelandpunk
one of the ancient Korans after they splatter his brains on some of the ancient gold inlaid verses on the walls.
You are thirteen or fourteen, I hope. Please tell me you are not older than that?? Right???
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LONG-LINER Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. No that would be wrong ... just bring in the murderer
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. Are you talking about bush, Rumsfeld, or Cheney, which one?
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LONG-LINER Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. bush, Rumsfeld, or Cheney, Must be brought in by trials at
he Hague
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. Good, just making sure. eom
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mike1963 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #68
77. Which murderer? Bush? Cheney? Wolfowitz? Rummy?
You are going to have to be more precise here, kiddo...
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demdave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #66
74. Shiite mosque blown up in war-torn Iraq
Mar 15, 2004

Shiite mosque under construction in Ghazalia, 25 kilometres (17 miles) west of Baghdad, was blown up overnight, and local residents blamed extremist Sunni Muslims. Four explosives charges caused massive damage to several cement pillars around a prayer room, and the dome that was to have been the centerpiece of the mosque lay in ruins.

http://www.sarawaktribune.com.my/publish/article_26694.shtml

The "holiness" of a mosque has historically been upheld only on the U.S. side. I haven't seen Muslim combatants show very much hesitation to either use them or abuse them.

You shoot someone and run into a church, the police come in after you and kill you there if they must. IN THE U.S.!!
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demdave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #66
76. Gunmen Invade Church of Nativity
Wednesday, April 3, 2002

Fighting between Israeli troops and armed Palestinians erupted in Bethlehem late Tuesday with dozens of gunmen forcing their way into the Church of the Nativity, one of the holiest sites in Christianity.
Witnesses said there were dead bodies in front of the church.

"Can you imagine? Can you believe it? They are attacking the Church of Nativity, the Syrian Orthodox Church, and burn and demolish mosques," said Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, who remains under siege in his Ramallah headquarters, in an interview with Qatari television.

Israel accused the gunmen of shooting from inside the holy site, a charge the Palestinians denied.
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