Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

China and Colombia announce 'alternative Panama Canal'

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread		 This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 11:38 AM
Original message
China and Colombia announce 'alternative Panama Canal'
Source: BBC

Colombia has announced it is negotiating with China to build an alternative to the Panama Canal.

The proposed transport route is intended to promote the flow of goods between Asia and Latin America.

The plan is to create a "dry canal" where the Pacific port of Buenaventura would be linked by rail, across Colombia, to the Atlantic Coast.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12448580?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. "Take that, you running dog yankee imperialists." - Chinombia
Edited on Mon Feb-14-11 12:35 PM by SpiralHawk
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. I imagine a dry canal isn't as efficient as a wet one. nt.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. It's all the scraping and grinding that wears the hulls down. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. It also has to be downhill both ways
Unless you are going really fast.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. They could speed up just before enterning. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. And butter the hull
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Okay...
that one made me spray coffee out my nose!

:rofl:

Cheers to you my crazy snarky friend! :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Old Troop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. Too Funny!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I believe this will probably be a major competitor; at the very least for the Canal.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4305465

China to bid on US high-speed rail projects

BEIJING (AP) -- China plans to bid for contracts to build U.S. high-speed train lines and is stepping up exports of rail technology to Europe and Latin America, a government official said on Saturday.



The speed of transport will greatly surpass that of the Canal.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Can't move freight on high speed rail
The weight warps the rails. Not too safe then.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Do you believe that technology will eventually overcome that barrier? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. High speed rail is a pretty mature technology
Mass does not change. So I say no.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. the freight rail would unlikely be high speed. the distance traveled isn't that great
so would not necessitate a high speed rail. the width and depth of the Panama Canal would not be a limitation for the rail system, even though the canal is being widened.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-11 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #6
36. Depends. Keyword 'projects'. Could mean mag-lev, which has no 'rail.'
no rail, nothing to warp. just keep to weight parameters per car and voila.

article mentioned French, German (1st commercial mag-lev co., IIRC), & Japan tech embraced by China. additional research applied, so improvements likely. such a short distance between Colombian ports that acceleration issues would factor. considering mag-lev excels in acceleration, it could be the best choice in rapid transport of cargo. the big key would be how to retain the use of ship cargo containers upon the mag-lev, which would speed up loading & unloading of cargo at the ports.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-11 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. The speed on the line will be irrelevant; the cost of loading and unloading is everything
(though the cost of any high speed rail, or even maglev, would probably be enough to stop the project).

Remember, this is a small part of a trans-ocean journey. It's 200km long. Doing that in an hour, or an hour and a half, rather than say 4 hours, means nothing compared with the days it takes for the ships in either ocean to get to their destination. The time taken to load and unload the train would also be more important, but the manpower needed to do so would be more important still.

Here's a comparison, noting that there's already a Panama Canal Railroad:

But the challenge may be to make the economics of a railway designed to supplant the canal add up. One veteran shipping executive, who asked not to be named, points out that the container moves at either end of the “dry canal” are likely to cost $200 each. Charges for the rail portion will be at least $100. The figures compare with an average fee per container of about $100 for use of the canal.

The logistics of moving whole shiploads of containers could also be daunting. The Panama Canal is currently in the middle of a $5.25bn expansion to double its capacity and accommodate modern container ships carrying 12,000 twenty-foot equivalent units of containers. Even if the dry canal’s trains can carry more than the 270 TEU of a fully laden Panama Canal Railway train, a 12,000 TEU shipload might take 30 trains to move.

“Even if you could run 20 to 30 trains a day, that’s just one ship,” the veteran shipping executive points out. Such daunting logistical and financial challenges make most observers sceptical that a multi-billion dollar “dry canal” could realistically compete with an expanded traditional canal.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/72dbe15e-3799-11e0-b91a-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz1E4F8Kz00
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. How much of the canal traffic originates in the U.S.?
Unloading and reloading would be much more expensive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FLPanhandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. Seems the cost of unloading and reloading would make it uneconmically viable.
Also, would the cargo have to pass in/out of Columbia customs?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. That's what I'm thinking. Not to mention having to ensure an empty ship on the other side. nt.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ngant17 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. It could be a game-changer, a new paradigm
I'm guess there will be some specifications for moving the freight, probably designed or based on trucking cargo shipments as it's done on rail/highways. ISO conex containers are pretty common for moving and storage, they can easily be moved from ships to train or truck. Ship-to-train and train-to-ship logistics. I'm sure they'll make it cheaper for some companies to do this.

Canal uses hydraulic locks which have to be serviced and maintained. And Panama Canal has the monopoly on trans-oceanic shipping right now. Competition would be interesting here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FLPanhandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-11 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. It would still be very hard to add in the loading/unloading/rail transport cost
Against just going around.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ngant17 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-11 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Queuing the cargo wouldn't be difficult
and if there was excess capacity, the ships would have to go thru the canal instead.

Competition will ultimately determine the cheapest price.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
9. The World Is Moving On Without Us
We're playing stupid war games and defunding our infrastructure. Meanwhile, the world is racing ahead. They're making deals and building infrastructure projects to support global trade.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. It's not our canal
Edited on Mon Feb-14-11 01:40 PM by WatsonT
We handed it over in 1999. The Panamanians are in control of it and any lost traffic will hurt that country, not us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal_Authority
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Not Talking About the Panama Canal per se
I'm talking about how other countries like China and Columbia are coming together and creating projects that foster international trade. This project will bring jobs to both China and Columbia.

We should be doing such projects, but we don't.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. "creating projects that foster international trade"
You mean like creating the canal in the first place? The reason China is proposing this is that they are starting from a deficit. We've already rigged things up for our benefit. They haven't had the opportunity yet.

So it's not like they're rocketing ahead of us: they're trying to catch up. Shipping between the US and Asia or the US and South America isn't really an issue. We don't need more canals or ports to make that a reality.

The issue with exporting to those places isn't the infrastructure necessary to do so, we have that. It's the manufactured goods produced for export. We need more of those. Otherwise we could build a thousand canals and make not a dent in our trade deficit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. I guess we'll eventually see what a post-Manifest Destiny America looks like.
We're spinning off into unnecessary wars and now winding down as an empire while the rest of the world is getting down to business.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Thanks for Getting My Point. Others Seemed to Miss It.
The world is beginning to do things without us. They building around the Panama Canal. They're moving away from our dollar. They're starting democracy in Egypt.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. The world has always done things without us
They're proposing building a rail across Colombia, not a new canal. Moving away from the dollar was inevitable and 'they' didn't start democracy in Egypt. The Egyptians, inspired by high grain prices, overthrow Mubarak and now have a military dictatorship. It may form a democracy, or not. Too early to tell.

I got your point, it just wasn't accurate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Pointing out where you are mistaken
is not 'being a jackass'.

You claimed we were going to be left behind because we weren't cooperating with other nations to build canals and such. For that to be valid our ability to ship goods would have to be the limiting factor causing our negative trade balance. It isn't. A lack of manufactured goods for export built here is what is causing it (or importing too much depending on how you view it).

So this isn't the end of the world or even the US.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. For The Record
My post stated that the world is moving ahead without us. Today, China officially became the 2nd largest economy in the world. That's was my point, and if you are too dense to comprehend it, then I feel sorry for you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-11 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #33
38. But what does that even mean?
Moving ahead without us? Did they have to get our permission before?

"Hey Mao I want to build this canal, better run it by the Americans first see if they're ok with it"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-11 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #26
37. +1 n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
17. Will be interesting to see where they are proposing the new line.
At a quick glance, Columbia has no obvious spot for this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
20. Someone call Fitzcarraldo
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083946/
http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTIxNjY1MjQyOF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMjM4ODcyMQ@@._V1._SY317_CR4,0,214,317_.jpg
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. Or Aguirre! Either way Klaus Kinski can do it!!!
That crazy fucker could do it, even from the grave!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Old Troop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
23. Think of the employment possibilities...
tens of thousands of people to take one piece of cargo each on their shoulders and run as fast a possible through this ditch to the other side.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Inspiring! And think of all the exercise they'll be getting! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-11 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
32. Buenaventura is on the Pacific
and to the east is the Andes, quite an haul for a loaded train. Train travel is treacherous in the Andes and short hauls can take weeks with landslides and the rest. It seems unrealistic to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-11 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
34. A couple of problems. First., Panama already has a rail system that skirts the canal. You can
already do this there.

Second, Panama has all the infrastructure in place on both ends of the canal to handle all of the shipping, plus import/export specialists, banking, free zones, etc. There is more to this than providing a conduit from point A to point B.

Third, unloading your shipping, then putting it onto railway cars, then unloading from the railway cars and reloading onto a second ship that has to be ready for the cargo is not even close to as efficient as a single ship with no loading and unloading going through the canal. If it was close to as efficient, firms would be using the railway that already exists in Panama.

I doubt this gets off the ground.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-11 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
35. It will be interesting to see the entire ship transported by rail.
:freak:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-11 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
39. Could be worse.
Remember Edward Teller's proposed sea level canal?

Excavated with hydrogen bombs...

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

Chinese trains sound rather pleasant.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu May 02nd 2024, 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators

Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC