(Florida GOP) Bill would ban doctors from asking about gun ownership

Source: Orlando Sentinel

TALLAHASSEE — A controversial gun bill, strongly backed by the National Rifle Association and strongly opposed by doctors, passed through the Senate Criminal Justice Committee on Tuesday.

SB 432 would prohibit doctors from asking patients whether they own a gun. An offending physician would be charged $10,000 for the first offense, at least $25,000 for the second offense and a minimum of $100,000 for the third offense. Psychologists and psychiatrists dealing with emergency psychotic episodes would be exempt.

.....

"This bill imposes additional, unnecessary regulations on an already overburdened profession," said Chris Nuland, a lawyer for the American College of Surgeons. "This bill endangers lives. There are times when physicians need to ask these questions."

.....

But Marian Hammer, an NRA lobbyist and former national president, said doctors are pushing an anti-gun agenda on their patients and intruding on their Second Amendment rights.
"A growing political agenda is being carried out in examination rooms," Hammer said. "It has become about the politics of some medical doctors, and it has to stop."

The committee temporarily postponed another bill that would lift the ban on carrying guns on college campuses,

Read more: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/fl-gun-bill-passes-committee-20110222,0,2833131.story

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Florida's precipitous decline continues under this tyrannical GOP siege.


"A growing political agenda is being carried out in examination rooms," (NRA lobbyist and former national president) Hammer said. "It has become about the politics of some medical doctors, and it has to stop."


No. The growing political agenda is being carried out in the GOP-controlled Legislature, Governor's office and adjoining Koch Brothers-funded lobbyist couches.


These people make me sick.

yup

Crazier and crazier.

It seems like a perfectly legitimate question if the patient may be suicidal.

If a patient feels that their doctor is asking inappropriate questions they can say so and refuse to answer or even change doctors.

If find it interesting that pro-gun groups, which are usually right-wing, want such Big Brother type interference from government.

'Do you ever have thoughts about hurting yourself or a family member' is right there with it.

It's about medicine, not gun control.

And why does it matter if they ask?

Doctors have to deal with the consequences.

yup

What happens if the patient shows up with a gunshot wound? You can't ask them how it happened? Was it your gun? What kind? This is overlegislating.

It's interesting that 1. Republicans are looking to the government to solve a (percieved) problem, and 2. they want to impose crippling fines on doctors. It's Bizarro world, I tells ya.

i'm a layman, so i wouldn't know for sure.
but, aren't those two traits symptomatic of some kind of psychosis?
and probably genetic with the right-wingers, too.

The only thing standing between you and your doctor providing health care is the NRA.

http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2011/0432/BillText/Filed/PDF

It seems to me that anyone, who dislikes being asked about guns, could simply find another physician. And, of course, the bill represents an unnecessary intrusion by the state into a private business practice

It's in my checked luggage in a hard sided case that's locked.

yup

What fucking assholes

yup

This is the NRA looking out for themselves. Conglomerates over the people. Same old same old.

They require medical to report any suspected abuse to children, spouses or so's. But won't allow doctors to ask questions that may shed light on whether any further investigation should be conducted by law enforcement. Medical should be a filter of the facts so law enforcement is not overburdened with time wasted on situations not needing their services.

They appear to make it seem as if doctors ask all their patients if they own a gun. But they don't provide any facts to suggest that is the reason for their fake concern.

not

ask if the doctor has a gun?

edited for spelling

Doctors have to deal with the mayhem

It's their job

yup

Are they going to refuse treatment based on gun ownership, will they come to your house and confiscate your guns if you answer yes?

In other words how would asking make any difference whatsoever?

It won't. This is a pointless invasion of privacy, a feel good measure that will make no difference whatsoever.

Yup.

Where do you get theis stupid idea that someone in going to take your gun if your doctor asks about it.

That's just plain stupid

NRA BS

yup

the 'nature of the injury' by you know, looking at the injury.

If someone comes in with what appears to be a gun-wound do you think the doctors first reaction will be to grab the patients medical records and see if he owns a gun, and if not completely rule out the notion that it might be a gun-wound?


"Yes yes I know it looks like a gun shot, and the victim said it was, and I found a bullet lodgedd in the wound, and the cops told me they found the guy who shot him, but as you can plainly see the patient said 'no' when asked if he keeps a gun in the house, so obviously it can't be a gun shot wound. I don't know . .. maybe lupus then?"

I think.

depression and remington do not mix

To me the most interesting statement...

"...said doctors are pushing an anti-gun agenda on their patients and intruding on their Second Amendment rights."

Now why would people who's job is to save lives have a problem with guns?

Not that doctors necessarily fall into the same political map on gun control. But I find it telling how the NRA on the sly admits that yeah, guns are dangerous and can kill people.

I am sure many doctors have an anti-give your kids drano to drink agenda too.

really?

Doctor's offices can put up 'no firearms' signs just as other private businesses can in Florida.

http://archive.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.06.html


Did you actually have a point to make?

I hope they all do

yup

Or was your distraction nothing more than that?

makes you a threat to someone in a hospital?

And the people we need to worry about are those who freely admit to it, rather than those who lie and hide the fact?

I think you're hatred/fear of guns has clouded your judgment.

It is a public health issue.

yup

should doctors ask for that info as well?

What about if the mom has any live in boyfriends who are not related to the child? Statistically those things are pretty dangerous.

How about dogs?

Or alcohol?

Or draincleaner/anti-freeze?

You're reasoning is emotion rather than logic based.

Yup.

yup

I assume the doctors then should ask about car ownership, proper wiring in the home, the presence of a pool, any choking hazards, and "unspecified" risks BEFORE asking about guns. If indeed this about just about the childs safety and not some political ax you wish to grind.

That is what this is about right, the kids? You aren't using them to push your own beliefs are you? Surely not.

yup

first it's the most important health risk, then a major health risk, then a manageable risk, then finally it ends up being "guns are evil, swimming pools aren't".

And if you consider 2% to be major . . . . well I think you owe your various math teachers an apology.

to avoid dealing with these inconvenient truths just let me know.

Might I suggest the "guns are evil whereas swimming pools are not" approach?

Apparently kids killed with bullets are like more dead or something than those who drown.

Swimming pools are part of it too.

unlike guns, the sole purpose of swimming pools is to kill or injure

sneaky buggers aren't they?

"It is a public health issue." ====> "sole intent to kill"

So it's no longer about public health, but rather intentions.

:toast:

http://www.ocala.com/article/20100723/NEWS/100729867/1402/NEWS


"He said he asks such questions of all his patients because if there are guns in a home with children, he advises that parents lock them away so children don't hurt themselves.

“The purpose is to give advice… I don't tell them to get rid of the guns,” he said. “The purpose is to give advice.”

He said that more than half the families he treats have guns.

Okonkwo said that during the summer, he asks parents the same kinds of questions about whether they have pools at their homes and gives advice about keeping them safe so children don't wander in and drown.

He said he does the same with young drivers, and asks whether they use their cell phones when they drive.

“I've been asking these questions two, three years,” he said.

Occasionally parents ask why he's inquiring, he said, but when he explains that it's to give them safety tips, they comply, Okonkwo said."

Then either he is treating a gunshot wound or he thinks he will be soon.

If they are asking everyone, and discriminating against gun owners,
maybe you could make a law against that, but the RW doesn't like
anti-discrimination laws, so that probably didn't occur to them.

Family and pediatrician tangle over gun question, Ocala Star-Banner, July 23, 2010






It's quite telling how these right wingers in our state government scream about KEEPING GOVERNMENT OUT OF OUR LIVES, yet they are perfectly willing to legislate government intervention in our physicians' offices.

Just give the parents a handout:" Here, read this at some point"
then Dr. notes handout was given.

"If you have a gun in the house, here is safety tip.
If you own a pool, here is safety tip.
If you have a dog, etc."

End of problem.

:shrug:

so saying "you can have your concerns but please don't push your beliefs on me, put it in a pamphlet and let people take them or not" doesn't work.

They are convinced you NEED to be told about the evils of your current lifestyle and deep down you secretly yearn for their help in becoming enlightened.

You would then be opposed to an OB/GYN asking new parents if they keep dangerous chemical cleaners, and suggesting they remove them? Or opposed to asking the new parents if they have a swimming pool, and then suggesting gates and nets?

If not, what then is the precise and relevant difference?

they should be asking those questions long before guns ever come up.

But do you really think reading a comprehensive list of everything that might kill a child is something doctors should be doing?

Hand them a pamphlet with the facts on it and let the parents make their own decisions.

Focusing on guns is not only transparently political but it also makes little sense given how rare gun fatalities are for children compared to so many other things.

OK. But again, are you opposed to an OB/GYN asking new parents if they keep hazardous chemical cleaners in their homes and suggesting they remove them if the answer is yes?

If so, what is the objective and relevant difference between the two?

hazardous chemicals are not protected in the constitution and there is not currently a lobby to get them banned.

You can understand why people might be concerned about creating a national database on such statistics.

Get rid of people trying to do away with the 2nd and it won't be an issue.

Oh and I haven't heard of any doctor refusing to treat someone who owns hazardous chemicals, whereas there is at least on incident of that happening with gun owners.

All the doctor need to do is say "if you have guns in the house, then please observer the following safety precautions." The doctor can do that without knowing if the patient had a gun or not.

I doubt that anyone would get rid of their guns because their pediatrician told them to.
Those who would, probably have already done so without any prompting.

Instead of telling them to get rid of their guns (which would fall on deaf ears)
they should discuss reasonable precautions for preventing their children from
getting unsupervised access to them.

Would this be akin to a physicians inquiring as to whether parents currently keep unsafe chemical cleaners in their homes, and suggesting that they remove them if the answer is yes?

in our home. They also asked if we had fire extinguishers, smoke detectors and swimming pools. I just assumed it was a way to discuss safety issues.

Oh yeah, the NRA told them they should. Figures.

about the risk of leaving a gun in the drawer, under the truck seat, or in an unsecured gun rack. It is just something they have always done.

Some family and OB docs do routinely ask about guns, and encourage them to be secured in a locked cabinet or at least be equipped with trigger guards. To make such a question illegal would seem beyond the pale even for rightwingers - talk about 'the gobberment' intruding into private lives!

Most people have never been taught the basics of safe use and storage of firearms. A one-hour lecture and demo could cover how to safely unload several common types of firearms, and address the legal, moral, and safety issues of unsecured weapons.

many here support an "abstinence only" approach.

We'll see how all this works out then.

You don't have to answer every question a doctor asks you, and you have no legal or moral obligation to answer non-medical questions truthfully.

If it weren't for crass anti-gun individuals and the agenda they pushm perhaps the nra wouldn't be needed.

Lets be real...There is NO CHANCE AT ALL of any "crass anti-gun" laws being passed at the Federal Level with the last congress or this congress or any congress for the foreseeable future. Even with all the mass killings that happen NOTHING HAS HAPPENED! It is that simple!

So, why does the NRA need to push their far Right Wing agenda like they do? Why do they have mix in religion with their FEAR CAMPAIGN emails?

I am a strong supporter of RESPONSIBLE gun ownership but the NRA is absurd in what they say & do! When they objected to the instant background check I was done with them! When they come against preventing people on the "No Fly List" from buying guns I was floored! Yes, some people are on that list that should not be on it but DAMN! Could you imagine what 19 terrorist could do with assault weapons in public gathering & they are willing to die doing it? The NRA has gone MAD!!!

The NRA is against making it mandatory for people to go through a creditable gun training course before they are allowed to carry a concealed weapon! Yet we make EVERY law enforcement personal do it! Why not civilians? Some of which have no damn business carrying a gun in public because they have not been properly trained how to use it much less be safe with it! It is INSANE!

NO ONE OR NO FEDERAL AGENCY is going to take my or your or anyone Else's pistols, rifles or assault weapons or even reloading equipment (Which I own all of the above) away unless you commit a crime or you have mental issues!

There is no threat of any of that, period!

Seriously, do you honestly think the Federal Government is going to send out the ATF, FBI or any other agency to take Americans' guns? REALLY? Could you imagine what would happen...Look at what the crazies do when nothing is happening other than Right Wing FEAR Campaigns led by the NRA! PEOPLE GET KILLED! It simply not going to happen!

The only gun control legislation that could pass & possibly with bipartisan support is the Assault Weapons Ban...And that will not take any gun you own away from you! Plus, it is good legislation.

The threats are drummed up to sell guns, ammo & run stock prices up!

I will let you in a on a very open to the public secret...Anytime the Democrats gain control of the congress like they did in 2006 & in again in 2008 when they gained control of everything...

Buy stock in Ruger & Smith & Wesson...My brother & I knew what would happen as we both get NRA propaganda in the mail & via email...We bought shares in both companies in late 2006 & again in late 2008...We doubled & tripled our money BOTH TIMES!

PLEASE go to this link http://www.google.com/finance?q=Ruger

Then on the graph in the top left you will see the options to look back in time...click "5yr"

Then look at what happens when the NRA starts their FEAR CAMPAIGNS...It is not right after the election it is just before the new congress is sworn in and just before the President is sworn in...EXACTLY when the NRA steps up their FEAR CAMPAIGNS & gun sales go through the roof!

Seriously, this is all the NRA does these days is inflate gun & ammo sales NOTHING MORE! Well, they create hysterical FEAR in some people who do not have the ability to think on their own & look at the facts!
Same here...
http://www.google.com/finance?q=Smith+%26+Wesson

It is what it is...The NRA has evolved from a true gun owners advocate to far Right Wing Political Machine & gun & ammo PIMP! Its a shame!

PLEASE don't take the passion in my writing as me being mad at you, I am NOT...I am mad at the NRA & the way they make people like me look like gun addicted FOOLS with no common sense!

It is doubtful that this gun ownership question is asked arbitrarily of parents in providing medical care for these patients.

It's also notable that this FL GOP legislation prohibiting physicians from asking their patients about gun ownership exempts psychologists and psychiatrists dealing with emergency psychotic episodes.



Yet again, we are presented with the ugly evidence that after being born, the safe lives of children are of no consequence to extreme right wingers.

This sign was posted on the door of this Central Florida urologist on March 31, 2010, in the middle of the health insurance reform debate.






Mt. Dora urologist gives viral boost to debate on health care reform

By Stephen Hudak
Palm Beach Post

April 6, 2010






The pediatrician honored established medical ethics toward his patient, when he asked whether there was a gun in the child's home.


The urologist with the overt political agenda shames his profession.



It seems to me that this GOP legislation is yet another way to drive a wedge between honest physicians and the public, which fits right in as the political weapon of choice by these right wing zealots in their desire for absolute power.

They also ask about your occupation, if you wear a seatbelt, drink, smoke, or have unprotected sex.

It's part of taking care of the whole patient.

Doc went at it like Beck junior. Gave me the whole indoctrination.
I didn't challenge him, since I was in quite a bit of pain at the time
and was afraid he might misplace his Hippocratic oath had I done so.

This was posted in the exam rooms (06/09/10):



Here's an original of the same chart that I found on the web:

You know: "Might I ask if you have access to any objects that can send lethal projectiles flying at thousands of feet per second?"

Asking if someone owns a gun is worse than a job asking if you ever had an abortion. Both are wrong, and both should be illegal.

That's what started this whole thing, asking parents about basic safety issues involving their children.

http://www.ocala.com/article/20100723/NEWS/100729867/1402/NEWS

or don't want to answer, is the doctor going to give them a lecture about what terrible people they are for not wanting an overflowing toilet and refuse to treat them? Because if so, then yeah, that doctor shouldn't be allowed to ask that either.

Either doctors can refuse to treat someone or give them shit for political reasons or they can't.

If parents refuse to be honest with a doctor, a doctor doesn't want that child's death on their hands.

Doctors can refuse to treat people for "political reasons" like parents intentionally putting their children into danger. There is no "I want to let my children die for stupid reasons" political party (or, maybe, there is now).

I have weapons in my house, I also have very strict rules about access to firearms, knives, swords, etc., because I regularly have small children in my house. All bladed objects, for example, are stored at least 5 feet high, or encased, or carried on-person. All firearms have at least 3 barriers, as does ammunition (which is separate).

If a doctor asked, and the parent *did* answer, "Yes, we have some, but they're locked up.", a doctor might inquire about the levels of security.

Anecdote: by the time I was 12, I could assemble a 1911 in complete dark, in 20 seconds, that my parents thought was "locked up" *and* "disassembled" in their bedroom (there were two, the springs were slightly different). They didn't teach me this, I just had to figure it out on my own.

Kids are crafty, and parents stupid enough to think "yeah, we have guns in the house, but nobody should worry about my children, because it's not an issue" aren't fit to be parents.

and a prospective employer to ask about neither.

If a doctor commits malpractice resulting in lifelong disability or even death, they should be immune from any civil liability, because lawsuits (and not the for-profit insurance industry)is the reason health care is so expensive.

But if a doctor asks if a patient has a gun, then the doctor could face actual jail time?

Seriously?

This isn't the first time the NRA and the notorious Ms. Hammer have used threats of criminal prosecution against anyone who dares questions anything about guns. In 2004, Jeb Bush signed into law a bill that made it a misdemenor for any state regulator to attempt to bring an environmental cleanup suit against a gun range.

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/05/14/State/Bills_ban_gun_range_l.shtml

These people rule on sheer thuggery and intimidation.