China says Dalai Lama has to reincarnate

Source: Reuters

BEIJING (Reuters) – Tibet's exiled spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, does not have a right to choose his successor any way he wants and must follow the historical and religious tradition of reincarnation, a Chinese official said Monday.

It is unclear how the 76-year-old Dalai Lama, who lives in India and is revered by many Tibetans, plans to pick his successor. He has said that the succession process could break with tradition -- either by being hand-picked by him or through democratic elections.

But Padma Choling, the Chinese-appointed governor of Tibet, said that the Dalai Lama had no right to abolish the institution of reincarnation, underscoring China's hardline stance on one of the most sensitive issues for the restless and remote region.

more here
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110307/wl_nm/us_china_npc_tibet

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110307/wl_nm/us_china_npc_tibet

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<[[The Chinese government says it has to approve all reincarnations of living Buddhas, or senior religious figures in Tibetan Buddhism. It also says China has to sign off on the choosing of the next Dalai Lama.>]]]

^^^

Its Obvious that China plans to "select" the "reincarnated" Lama. If China is allowed to do this it would be the final nail on the coffin for the Tibetan people. It goes without saying that China's stance on this issue would inevitably be against the wishes of the Tibetan people.

no china help with the the Dalai Lama successor

A clear violation of separation of church and state.

but that is part of the American constitution. The concept does not exist in the same way in China, and is certainly not part of the law.

I'll be watching this. It's a valid question - my understanding is that the religious leader is reincarnated, so how will this work?

Are there any Buddhists here that can comment?

Thanks,
Annette

The High Lamas used several ways in which they can increase the chances of finding the reincarnation. High Lamas often visit the holy lake, called Lhamo La-tso, in central Tibet and watch for a sign from the lake itself. This may be either a vision or some indication of the direction in which to search and this was how Tenzin Gyatso was found. It is said that Palden Lhamo, the female guardian spirit of the sacred lake, Lhamo La-tso, promised Gendun Drup, the 1st Dalai Lama in one of his visions "that she would protect the reincarnation lineage of the Dalai Lamas." Ever since the time of Gendun Gyatso, the 2nd Dalai Lama, who formalised the system, the Regents and other monks have gone to the lake to seek guidance on choosing the next reincarnation through visions while meditating there.





The particular form of Palden Lhamo at Lhamo La-tso is Gyelmo Maksorma, "The Victorious One who Turns Back Enemies". The lake is sometimes referred to as "Pelden Lhamo Kalideva", which indicates that Palden Lhamo is an emanation of the goddess Kali, the shakti of the Hindu God Śhiva.

Lhamo Latso ... a brilliant azure jewel set in a ring of grey mountains. The elevation and the surrounding peaks combine to give it a highly changeable climate, and the continuous passage of cloud and wind creates a constantly moving pattern on the surface of the waters. On that surface visions appear to those who seek them in the right frame of mind.<30>

It was here that during 1935, the Regent, Reting Rinpoche, received a clear vision of three Tibetan letters and of a monastery with a jade-green and gold roof, and a house with turquoise roof tiles, which led to the discovery of Tenzin Gyatso, the present 14th Dalai Lama.

High Lamas may also have a vision by a dream or if the Dalai Lama was cremated, they will often monitor the direction of the smoke as an indication of the direction of the rebirth.

Once the High Lamas have found the home and the boy they believe to be the reincarnation, the boy undergoes a series of tests to affirm the rebirth. They present a number of artefacts, only some of which belonged to the previous Dalai Lama, and if the boy chooses the items which belonged to the previous Dalai Lama, this is seen as a sign, in conjunction with all of the other indications, that the boy is the reincarnation.

If there is only one boy found, the High Lamas will invite Living Buddhas of the three great monasteries together with secular clergy and monk officials, to confirm their findings and will then report to the Central Government through the Minister of Tibet. Later a group consisting of the three major servants of Dalai Lama, eminent officials and troops will collect the boy and his family and travel to Lhasa, where the boy would be taken, usually to Drepung Monastery to study the Buddhist sutra in preparation for assuming the role of spiritual leader of Tibet.<27>

However, if there are several possibilities of the reincarnation, in the past regents and eminent officials and monks at the Jokhang in Lhasa, and the Minister to Tibet would decide on the individual by putting the boys' names inside an urn and drawing one lot in public if it was too difficult to judge the reincarnation initially.<34>

has been in training by China. I think they are angry as they have already chosen one according to what end results they want.

don't get to make these decisions. They of course, want to install puppets.

the best one.

Between kindergartners I'd understand.

:rofl:

I was thinking the exact same thing.

What a ridiculous argument. Like those who believe in that Dalai Lama and his religion are going to go along with what a non-Dali Lama says should be the "rules" of picking the next one! Would Catholics listen to anyone who wasn't a Catholic telling the Pope how to pick the next Pope? :eyes:

but this is a bit more blatant than average.

Usually they come up with some sort of reasoning for this based on an obscure text or vague relationship to some distant prophet, etc.

But this is essentially: am too. . . . nu-uh I am . . . nu-uh I am . . . . and so on.

Amazing that people are happy to die for this nonsense.

That said, it isn't for China to say, but selecting one's own successor doesn't make much sense in a doctrine based on succession by reincarnation.

What does China get out of Tibet that is so valuable anyway? Mining? Agriculture? What?

Also some minerals and - of course - keeping "face" ...
(They can't be seen to lose their conquered lands or their pride
would be smeared.)

The land and the water are probably the two most important
material aspects though.

:crazy:

So the Dalai Lama wants to meet his own reincarnation?

And atheist China holds on to the religious beliefs?


Comedy gold.

I respect everyone's right to his/her beliefs, but this just really puts logic six feet under in the blink of an eye.

I don't know specifically about techniques for the Dalai Lama's reincarnation, but for their reincarnated lineage holders in general they test the candidate(s). One of the testing criteria is being able to identify items that belonged to the former incarnation.

I have seen video of this process (not on YouTube, lol), quite interesting. First they identify a candidate, sometimes multiple candidates, based on a number of criteria such as place and time of birth, hints or even overt instructions left by the previous incarnation before his passing, etc.

Then they conduct the tests on these candidates. The only components of the test I remember are personal interaction with lamas who knew the deceased, and the encounter with the deceased's former possessions. There is more but I don't recall, perhaps someone else on here can fill in some of what I am leaving out.

They're quite serious about the process, and though that religion has its superstitions, it is the most purely scientific inquiry into the mind that I have encountered, at a very deep level, and I am reluctant to be dismissive of the selection process, as unbelievable as it sounds.

I see nothing about the process that is scientific an any way. But, whatever floats their boat is OK with me. I guess it's like hitting the Mega-Ball in Tibet.

The probability of one of them randomly selecting the right items seems to be about 1.

There are enough forces out there trying to kill us, but we have to watch out for our fellow humans as the likely cause of our misery or outright demise.

...he has said more than once that he would gladly resign his position to become "a simple monk" if the Tibetan refugee community in Dharamsala, India, would wish it. He is old and is probably tired of his constant travels, and his burden of personifying the tragedy and hope of Tibet's culture. I imagine that devoting the remainder of his current incarnation to study and contemplation would be tempting indeed...sort of like "The Last Tempation of Christ."

Some feel that Christ was what Buddhists call a "Bodhisattva," one of those people who are on the brink of enlightenment, poised to enter nirvana, but remain in our world to help others achieve the same state.

As for deciding the next incarnation, it is not unprecedented for a high-ranking monk to determine the appearance of his next vessel.

For those who find these concepts amusing and exotic, I understand. But a careful study of the dharma has led me to realize the perfect sense behind the process. Consider "karma," which many assume wrongly to be some form of justice or retribution. It is instead another case of the scientific process of action/reaction. Good acts prompt good results; bad acts otherwise. There is really not much mystery behind it all.

So it is with reincarnation. What we do in this current life has effects perhaps unknown to us, and may very well carry over to our next incarnation. The analogy I've heard that helps explain it is this: you check your baggage at an airline terminal, and on the other side, a "different" person picks it up.

Of course, accepting this process requires that you also accept the notion that the effects of our actions survive past the death of our current incarnations, and are realized in the life of a "new" person.

“Praise to you, violent god of the Yellow Hat teachings/who reduces to particles of dust/ great beings, high officials and ordinary people/ who pollute and corrupt the Gelug doctrine.”
(http://web.archive.org/web/20080619085740/http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html#notes)

With ugly friends: from SS officers to GWBush

and these guys
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/02/world/world-news-briefs-dalai-lama-group-says-it-got-money-from-cia.html?scp=1&sq=dalai%20lama%20cia%201998&st=cse

...the medieval squalor and suffering with which many Tibetans labored for centuries. And as for the current Dalai Lama's less-savory associates, it must be said that these relationships were necessitated by the "Cold" War. The CIA did indeed underwrite the lifestyle of His Holiness and the government in exile, as well as facilitate a proxy war with China which was Quixotic at best. Who would not accept such aid and comfort when your country, your people, and your culture were facing the utmost existential threat?

The serfdom, etc., of the past is not practiced by the Dharamsala government-in-exile. His Holiness is a vocal advocate of representative democracy, and serves a political position tantamount to a figurehead, such as Queen Elizabeth II. Her Highness, however, has never said she was willing to end her dynasty if the people so willed it, nor has she indicated that she might be the last figurehead of her country, as His Holiness has said.

The Dalai Lama has been very forthcoming and contrite in regards to the violent past of his sect, and the subsequent karma. These events precede the Dalai Lama's current incarnation by centuries. However, the Chinese occupation of his homeland may very well be a result of that karma, as he has noted. As for "SS officers," I imagine Duende azul is alluding to His Holiness' close friend, Heinrich Harrer, the Austrian mountaineer and admitted Nazi. It was his long association with the current Dalai Lama that led to Harrer's complete rejection of Nazi philosophy, his adoption of Buddhist practice, and his efforts to teach the world of Tibet's vast culture.

I myself despise feudalism and monarchy. I also despise the repression practiced by the government of China, no matter its excuses. His Holiness is an advocate of political freedom, and speaks unceasingly of the great need for love and compassion in this world, especially towards one's enemies. None of us can escape our linkage with the rest of humanity, nor can we avoid the consequences of our actions. To try otherwise, and/or to rationalize such, is the single greatest hypocrisy.

I thank Duende azul for his contribution to this thread. I have saved one of his links, and will study it to remind me that our past will always manifest anew. I hope Duende azul will consider me a friend. I could use a blue goblin in my life.

Rule was "adminstered" by these religious nutjobs during the Chinese Civil War.
No other country recognized Tibet as an "indepedent country".
It was always part of China.
Just ask the Brits, they drew these lines on the map in the first place.
It is propaganda to claim China "invaded" Tibet.

I'm always perplexed that so many posters take such an uncritical view of the "Dali Lama"
He is the figure head of a whacky religous group that has practiced slavery in recent times and is undemocratic.
His entire organization has been largely funded by the CIA as useful idiots to undermine China.

The reality that he is now picking his successor should also raise a few red flags to those of us not willing to suspend our critical thinking.

...of designating his next incarnation to prevent the Chinese from co-opting the process and subsequently completing their erasure of his religion and his culture.

To refer to Vajrayana Buddhism as a "whacky religious group" is at best disrespectful. This is a centuries-old practice, grounded in logic and by vigorous debate amongst its practitioners. "Critical thinking" is one of its most important aspects.

Yes, it is true that the CIA exploited events in Tibet to harass China, but the program ended when it was revealed to be a lost cause. It was Secretary Kissinger's earliest dealings with Chairman Mao that closed that door for good. An end to US meddling in Tibet was one of the Chairman's conditions before meeting President Nixon. Some of the Tibetan resistance fighters hiding in Nepal didn't give up their fight until they heard via radio the Dalai Lama's plea for them to stop. By then, their CIA support was long over.

As for Tibet's independance, or lack thereof, this is even now a subject debated by historians. But it must say something that China felt it necessary to march across the area and slaughter the people they were "liberating." The accounts of what transpired are horrifying, rivaling Hitler's "Special Action Groups" in Eastern Europe. Shall we indulge China's wishes to send all these stories down an Orwellian "memory hole?"

How can you take 1k years and reduce it down to what happened in the 1930s and declare you know everything about the culture and Dali Lama? It sounds like you are spreading Chinese propaganda, trying to "save" the Tibetans from that horrible person, the Dali Lama, who just supposedly wants to enslave them.

Based on your post, its apparent that you have no idea of the history of Tibet. On one hand you talk about critical thinking, but on the other you take the Chinese propaganda as the defacto truth. Surely critical thinking would require one to verify any claims he/she sees..would it not?

Tibet was an independent country for more than 2000 years. Even a cursory knowledge of the history of Tibet and that region would support this. Furthermore The only "historical" "Chinese" Kingdom that ever controlled tibet(albeit for a very short time) was Not Chinese at all. Yep..that's the shocker. In fact the Qing Dynasty was not Chinese...it was created by Tungusic people from Siberia, by way of what is now known as Manchuria. They deposed of the Chinese Ming dynasty and created one of the biggest empires in that region.

It was these same Qing who also took over major parts of Tibet in the first place (Oh Btw at the height of its power the Tibetan Empire once also controlled China! in the medieval times.)

Later on, a century or two later the Qing became assimilated with the Chinese population. To claim the kingdoms ruled by the Qing as evidence in support of Chinese rule of Tibet (even then, only for a few centuries as opposed to the nearly 2 Millennia of Independent Tibetan rule) is akin to allowing America to claim Singapore because the British once ruled America as well as Singapore. Yes...The Chinese claims are that absurd!

What next? India claiming Australia cos India and Australia were both governed by the British long ago?
or the Philippines claiming Mexico cos both of them were once ruled by the Spanish?

Sounds absurd right? :D


Thus, as you mentioned; anyone using critical thinking would not even touch the Chinese claims about Tibet with a 10 meter pole...

...and I'd love to discuss it. Please extend your thoughts on this, hugo_from_TN. History, science, philosophy, religion...all things that fascinate me.

Then participate in his upbringing... err... brainwashing.

Mr Show - Dalai Lama

And "part two", Mr Show - Camp Monk Academy

And of course the Chinese will use this as an excuse to pick a ringer. They actually did this a few years/decade ago and had their own "Dali Lama" I thought.

PB

Nobody knows what happened to the 6-year-old Panchen Lama or his family after they vanished 16 years ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gedhun_Choekyi_Nyima

Gotta love the types of totalitarian thugs U.S. corporations love to do business with

but that is just my guess.

On one hand they profess to be atheists
But when it comes to Tibet they need to approve it.

At the same time Dalai Lama has openl stated that he would prefer a democratic election of the next Lama if that is the wish of the people. The Chinese are opposed to this as well.

Anything that does not support their illegal occupation of Tibet is anathema to the Communist regime.

I don't think someone who doesn't believe in God gets to choose the Dalai Llama

the absolute ignorance is quite appalling on China's part